‘How Did We Get Here’ Transcription. Episode 1 - Jack Jack: Overcoming PTSD and anxiety and dealing with my sexuality, and all of that has been hard, but it's still not been as hard as this stuff. Claudia: Hello and welcome to How Did We Get Here? The podcast where me, Claudia Winkleman, and my wonderful friend, clinical psychologist Professor Tanya Byron, address challenges people are facing with their families. In each episode, we record face to face sessions with me listening in from another room. From time to time, I'll ask Tanya why she went down certain paths. This time we meet Jack. He's 22, has just graduated and is now working at his university. At the age of six, Jack's parents split up and after that he only saw his father twice a year. Since then, Jack has found meetings with his father difficult. After taking a break from their relationship, Jack tried to re-establish a connection last year, and felt snubbed. J: But then I felt like I've been abandoned all over again. And I just went, I went back to feeling like I was six years old, I guess. C: Throughout his life, Jack has suffered with anxiety and PTSD. He was bullied at school and lost his maternal grandmother, who was like a second parent to him, in 2010. Whilst Jack learned to overcome his anxiety, he wanted to know how he could accept the absence of a traditional father-son relationship. J: I've actually got goosebumps now. This is weird. All the pieces are coming together on the puzzle. Wow, you're right. I know you are cause I can feel it. C: What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one-time, unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on useful links and contacts, which you will also be able to find in the programme notes of this episode. So let's go and meet Jack. J: Hiya, are you okay? C: Yeah. How are you, darling? J: I'm excited! C: Thank you so much for coming in. Have a seat! Why are you here? J: Everything's going so good. But there's this one thing. And that's that I don't have a relationship with my dad, which is upsetting. And although I guess I've come to the conclusion now that I don't really think one will manifest totally, I just want some advice of how to move forward. C: Tell me why you don't have a relationship with him. J: But whenever I saw him, it was just never nice. Like, do you know that anxious feeling in your stomach before you see somebody? C: Which is not what you want with a parent. J: No, and I always thought, like, a lot later on, I thought 'actually Jack, this isn't okay'. When I did see him, it was just, it was always what he wanted to do. So he was always into like walking and like hiking and stuff, and I'd always have to do those kinds of things with him C: When you did see him, did he say 'I love you'? Was there cuddles- J: Oh god, no. C: Okay, that reaction's extraordinary, by the way. J: I don't think he's ever said that. No, no affection. It wasn't, he's very masculine and very...no, none of that stuff. I guess it got to the point where I just thought I don't want this anymore. C: Does he have a relationship with your sister? J: No. So, I ended the relationship with him. And then, a few months later, she also did. C: And, I suppose, taking control and going, 'I don't want you in my life', did that make you feel good? J: Erm, it did at the time. So, I told him and he wasn't happy. After that, he didn't do anything to try to fight for me and people said that to me since, he did it like, he was almost just like he, he rolled over and took it. So three years past from then. I reached out to him, he still had the same phone number. And on the phone, he was really happy about it. And then, I text him and he, he said 'Jack, I'll reach out to you when I feel the time is right'. And I text him twice back and forth because he was starting a new job. I said 'good luck tomorrow, dad', a huge paragraph of lovely things, and he just put 'okay, thanks'. C: Oh my goodness. J: No affection, nothing, and I thought 'oh'. And then it just got to the point where I thought 'okay, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna wait now'. And in between, huge things have happened. I've graduated. C: Congratulations! J: And, erm, he didn't come. So I had that, I had my birthday in the August, again no communication. And then in the June, I had my book launch. So, I released a book! C: Congratulations! You're very busy! J: So basically, I released a book all on, like, positive thinking. And I had the book launch. It was a really nice day and he could have been there for that and he wasn't. So it's really sad because I remember saying to my mum... C: So, he hasn't communicated with you since January? J: No. C: But look what you've done without him. J: I have done it without him. And that's lovely. But, in a nutshell, it almost felt like I've been abandoned twice. C: Yeah. Well you are gonna have the most brilliant chat. I've gonna send Tanya in. Tanya: I was listening to talking to Claude, and you were saying, you know, my graduation - he wasn't there. My book launch - he wasn't there... J: They're big moments T: And it's like, what do you have to do for him to be proud of you? J: I felt like that a few times. And it's such a horrible feeling because you do feel like you're not good enough. And it sounds so silly, but I guess that's what it is, isn't it? That's what this all comes down to...is approval and working on the worthy stuff, because throughout whole life, I've never felt worthy. T: Tell me about that, sweetheart, because you've achieved a lot. J: I know. T: Why haven't you felt worthy? J: Sometimes, I don't know why, I think it's like a dad and a son thing. It almost just does. T: Well, you want his validation. J: Bingo. Yeah. T: And you why're you laughing, love? Because I can see, people can't see, but I can see you're laughing but you have tears in your eyes. J: I just laughed to cover it up. T: It's such pain. J: Mmm. T: So you've written this incredible book. What you've managed to do is explain how we can empower ourselves and powerful through anxiety. J: Yeah. T: I think this issue in your life is one where, trying to reframe it with positive thinking, is just not working for you. J: Overcoming PTSD and anxiety and dealing with my sexuality and all of that has been hard. But it's, it's still not been as hard as this stuff. Last year when everything fell into place almost, the only way I can describe it is like, all of a sudden it came up from the surface and it floated to the top of the water. And it's like, oh, that's there now. T: So what then needs to happen? J: The only way I can see it from now maybe in a naive way is that I just need to...almost accept it's not gonna change. T: So you've talked about a concept called acceptance. J: Yeah. T: Which I guess is something you have done before in your life because, when your grandmother died, you must have been in shock and disbelief and you had to learn to live without her. J: Somehow you have to. T: Yeah, so acceptance is something that you have done before ith a relationship, but acceptance when it's a relationship that has positive memories, however painful the loss is, J: Yeah T: The memories are good. This is more complicated, isn't it? J: Yeah. Because, yeah, there was a few good memories. But, even looking back, I don't, they weren't really good memories because I didn't feel nice. I didn't, I felt anxious when I used to see him. I'd feel very scared. T: Of what J: Of him. T: Why? What did you think might happen? J: That he was just gonna judge us, be rude. He'd ask us so many personal questions. I thought, 'okay, so you're asking us these', but the thing is, we could never ask him anything. Anything personal, he wouldn't answer. He liked to have his private life private and that was that. T: Does he know that you're a gay man? J: Yeah, he knows. And he, apparently he....this is interesting. He said he always knew. And then my sister came out. Yeah, so my twin sister came out as gay as well. He didn't know about that until a few years when my grandparents told him. T: So his, your dad's parent? J: Yeah. T: But tell me a bit about your father, does he accept you and your sister for for who you are? J: The whole time, the thought was plaguing me so much was that he was homophobic. And I'm told he's not. Do I believe that? I'm not totally sure what his views are on it, because to me, I'd want to hear it from him. And so... T: there is fair as well that, not only has he, as you feel, rejected and abandoned you...that he will further reject you because of your sexuality. J: Yeah. T: You have a fantasy about what you would like your relationship with your dad to be. J: Course you do, yeah. T: Tell me about that fantasy? What would you want to... J: In my head it's like a Disney film, I guess. That's the only way I can describe it. Do you know what I mean? Like, fake I guess. To me, there's a big thing I thought, 'I'm gonna get to phone him'. Like on the phone like once a week maybe. And then like once a month we'll see each other, like, because I'm so busy and he is. T: You want him to be your friend. J: It's almost like I'm an acquaintance, not like a friend. Definitely not like a family member... T: And not like a son. J: Hell no. T: Do you feel angry as well? Or is it really just sadness? 9:09 J: I was angry because, when we stopped seeing him, whenever I saw my grandparents they just said he's proud of what you're doing and I can't hear that now. I'm like, 'stop. Don't tell me he's proud of me. Don't tell me that.' 9:21 T: You are angry. 9:22 J: Like, come on. Okay, so I live in, like right in the Midlands, he lives like 20 minutes away from me, half an hour. He's literally in the same area as me, you know, when I go to see my grandparents, they live literally five minutes from him. So I went there the other day and just being there, I felt anxious. 9:38 T: So even though your dad's not present in your life, he has a massive presence, doesn't he? 9:43 J: Yeah. 9:43 T: He's with you all the time and some things trigger him 9:46 J: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it's with like TV stuff and, like, films and things. 9:53 T: You mean you'll watch something and... 9:54 J: Yeah. 9:55 T: And is it father-son type stuff? 9:57 J: It's just whenever there's a dad on the screen, because... 9:59 T: And what, what happens? 10:01 J: What happens? Well, I've only just realised it, because I'm so positive and because of everything I do, it's like, I'm standing up and it pops up from the soil. I do this *stamp sound*. 10:13 T: You've just pushed your foot on the floor. So you're saying you stamp it back down? 10:17 J: I have never thought about it until you've just said it. I push my foot down into the soil and I make sure it stays beneath the surface. 10:24 T: So you repress the feeling of sadness. 10:27 J: Yeah. 10:27 T: And you replace it with what, self validating thoughts? 10:32 J: Yeah, anything to take my mind off it. 10:41 C: So Tan, I just want to pause a minute to ask. We can't see you, I should explain to anybody listening. So you're in a totally separate room, and we can't look in. Fascinating to me, about the fact that he was physically stamping his foot down. He said he just puts it down in the soil and he kept on talking about it. 11:01 T: Yes, he was stomping his foot and he was saying 'I'm going to stamp it down into the soil'. So repressing those feelings, not feeling those feelings. 11:09 C: So visual. The two of you worked out that actually, then it was contaminating the soil. And nothing could grow. At this point I should tell you that me and our producer were crying. 11:19 T: Yeah, well, you've still got mascara down your face, Claude. 11:23 C: Yeah, well, that's usual. 11:23 T: Yeah. It was helping him sort of untangle that and recognise that the feelings he's carried for years around his lack of relationship with a father, and have made him anxious about attachment, it's like a template that he's now taking into making relationships as an adult. 11:45 C: Because people on the outside of your work, let's call us muggles, we often say that we want to repeat our childhood or you try and do everything you can to make it different. You know, people either say 'I want to end up like my mum and dad, or my mum and step-dad, or my mum and other mum' or whatever it is, or 'I want to do something the absolute opposite'. 12:04 T: So it's a really interesting, many years ago, many years ago, you know how old I am Claude. When I was training, I was really lucky enough to train in systemic theory, which is part of family, how you work with families and understand families. And there was this fantastic book I read, written by John Byng-Hall, and he talked about the fact that, often as we get older, we talk about correctives scripts. I am going to correct in my adult life, what I perceive was wrong with my childhood. But actually, unwittingly, because of these blueprints that are set down, we actually can act out repetitive scripts. So it's about understanding how we can repeat things even though we desperately want them to be different. 12:55 C: That is fascinating. Okay, thank you so much. I promise not to interrupt again. I mean, sort of promise? 13:07 T: Can I make a suggestion though. You're kind of showing me physically what you do internally. I would say to you that that's not working for you. It works short term. 13:22 J: But not long term no, because it just keeps coming back. 13:24 T: It keeps coming back. But just from the perspective of repressing painful feelings, I'm engaging you with the feeling and then you turn your head away. 13:33 J: Yeah, cause I don't like it. 13:36 T: It's difficult, isn't it? And you're laughing now. And you look like you want to cry. What's so frightening for you to engage with the feeling, because I can see it now. 13:47 J: It's just painful. Because, to me, I don't...I just want it, I just want it to get better. 13:54 T: Do you think it's possible for it to get better without you allowing it to be expressed? 14:02 J: Maybe it's because I feel that when it has come out, it's likke well, what good is that going to do? So it's like, just ignore it and just carry on doing what you're doing because it's not gonna solve anything around that situation. 14:15 T: I think what you're saying is, 'what is the point of putting myself through the agony? Of feeling the feelings that I know I can stamp down? If it's not actually going to make me have a relationship with my dad?'. 14:28 J: Yeah. 14:29 T: But they're are actually two separate things, darling. One is a relationship with your father or not. And that's the bit about acceptance. 14:38 J: Yeah. 14:38 T: But we're talking about something a bit different here. Processing loss isn't only worth it, if you think there's going to be a good outcome at the end. 14:51 J: Yeah. It's like affected other stuff as well, though. 14:54 T: Relationships with people? 14:57 J: Major. So far my life I've never had a relationship. With my friendships actually, in general, until kind of last year, I was very, almost like I came to the conclusion that I was basically thinking that, if I didn't keep in contact with my friends sometimes daily and always speaking to them and always communicating with them, they would drop me. And I'd not be friends with them anymore. And I'd lose a friend. And I was doing that for such a long time, then I realised it. I was lile 'no Jack, wait a minute, they're still gonna be there, even if you don't talk to them like weekly'. It goes back to that again. 15:32 T: You have memories from a very young age of anxiety, and then a real sense of abandonment. Attachment theory talks about how our early life attachments, so caregivers, people who are very fundamental in our lives from from very young, how those relationships set a blueprint for the relationships we have for the rest of our life. So the input of your mum and your and your grandmother, who you were also incredibly close to, means that you are a warm, loving, caring, young man who can have really good relationships with people. But the impact of your relationship with your father has also left another bit of a blueprint inside you, particularly when it comes to men, but friends in general, which is a feeling of anxiety. 16:25 J: Yeah. 16:26 T: Because if it was just about you, if it was just a you, Jack, just happened to be unlovable by, as a son. Yeah, then why am I hearing from you today what I have heard thousands and thousands and thousands of times in my clinical career from people who, like you, have relationships with one or both parents where they feel a sense of abandonment, rejection and anxiety. 16:52 J: Yeah. 16:53 T: It's not about you. 16:57 J: Okay, 16:58 T: Where does that take you now? It's like, it looks like you've just been hit by a car. You look really stunned. What... 17:04 J: It's just what you just said. It's...whoa... 17:08 T: Tell me. Process what I've just said. 17:10 J: You just said it's not about me. 17:13 T: How can it be about you, Jack? How could I have known this about you? I've never met you before. So the reason I'm playing back to you... 17:21 J: But when you're in you, and 17:22 T: 100%. It must be me. 17:25 J: It has to be. 17:26 T: so therefore, you go towards other relationships and then you you think, no, no, I've got to protect myself from being rejected, because I am fundamentally unlovable, because my dad never really properly loved me. So I tell you, I won't have a rel-...I know what, I've got to finish my job. I'll have a relationship. So you keep putting it off. 17:43 J: Correct, yeah. 17:44 T: The point is, your belief that you're not lovable comes from the fact that your father is never shown you the love that you desperately crave. You crave and crave it. 17:56 J: Yeah, correct. Sounds powerful. 17:58 T: It's incredibly powerful, darling. 18:02 J: Yeah, it is. 18:02 T: But then if we move on from that, how do you free yourself up? I get back to you stamping your foot onto the soil saying go away... 18:11 J: 'Get back down' 18:12 T: Get back down. So how do you link that to this anxious attachment sort of blueprint you still carry inside you? How do those two things sit together and what needs to happen in order for you to release yourself? 18:26 J: I need to leave my foot away. I need to let it come up and take it out. Because... 18:33 T: You need to separate it. 18:34 J: I need to set it free. 18:36 T: That's exactly right, Jack. 18:37 J: Set it free. I've only just realised that, the way you just said it. 18:50 T: So, we've got: how can you process those feelings, question number one. 18:56 J: Yeah. 18:57 T: So that's something you and I need to think about. Let's, just for a moment, think about you and your father. You said, when you were talking to Claude, one of the things that really upset you is that he didn't fight for the relationship. But I think you were expecting him to do that, because you have an idealised version of what a father is. 19:22 J: Yeah, you're right. I do, yeah. 19:23 T: Okay. So let's just think about your dad. You said to Claude, he didn't fight for the relationship. 19:31 J: No, not at all. 19:31 T: Right. But when I heard you say that, and as you can see, I wrote it down on my clipboard that I've got here. I wrote down - what relationship are you talking about? How can you fight for a relationship that doesn't exist? 19:46 J: Well, because it was still something. So I just wanted him to step up. Just... 19:53 T: Maybe that's not the kind of man he is, but that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't want a relationship, but maybe he doesn't know how to have a relationship with you. And that's something that you can help him with. 20:05 J: He doesn't. 20:06 T: No, of course he doesn't. And also his experience within the family has been that you and your sister and your mum and your nan have been the family group and he walks into a room, everybody changes, so he feels on the outside. Now, you could argue he put himself there. But if you want a relationship with your father, I wonder if there's a different way of achieving that. And that has to begin with you seeing him for who he really is. 20:38 J: That's interesting. 20:41 T: You've got these ideas of a relationship, which I completely understand. 20:45 J: Yeah. 20:45 T: Based on a fantasy... 20:49 J: Mmm, totally. 20:49 T: But actually, who is your father? That is the big question. 20:53 J: I don't know. 20:54 T: Exactly. And my sense is, he doesn't know who you are either. So, to have a relationship, you've got to start from the very beginning, which is getting to know each other. 21:09 J: Yeah. Hi, my name's Jack. 21:11 T: And, absolutely. Because he's dad in name, but he's... 21:16 J: Not in action, not in anything else. 21:18 T: But he's never had a chance to be that, has he? He's never had any practice at it. 21:22 J: Interestingly, he always said, apparently, that he wasn't really meant to have children. He says he's a loner, and he likes being a loner. Like, he has his partner now, but even with her it's, it's not totally... 21:36 T: So, he's an isolated man. 21:37 J: Yeah, it's not totally there with her. He doesn't have friends. 21:39 T: Here. We have a man who wants to be, and is, a loner. 21:42 J: Yeah. 21:43 T: Who didn't even know if he could be a father. 21:45 J: Yeah, he didn't want to be one. 21:46 T: Well, maybe because he didn't know if he could be a good father. 21:49 J: Yeah, I think so, yeah. 21:49 T: So maybe he's got real confidence issues. Who has then got this son, who is gregarious and outgoing, so that's gonna be... 21:58 J: You know what, he's scared. 21:58 T: He's really scared. Y 21:59 J: Do you know what, he got used to not having me and Molly in his life. I've come back into the picture, dad's like 'no no no, I'm scared, I'm gonna go that way. No, I don't get my hands dirty because...' 22:10 T: Hes scared. 22:10 J: 'My son is doing really well, I don't want to go back in his life because I'm scared if I go back into his life I'm gonna mess it up again.' 22:15 T: One hundred percent. 22:16 J: He thinks that, doesn't he? 22:17 T: You nailed it. 22:18 J: Only because I, I d... 22:19 T: You nailed it! 22:20 J: I get it now, because for him is like, 'actually Jack no, I'll contact you when the time's right, because if I do that, it could get messed up again and you don't deserve that. So no, I'll go that way.' 22:28 T: A hundred percent. 22:29 J: It's interesting because although I can say that to you now and think it, do I still feel abandoned? Yes. 22:34 T: Of course you do, darling. Of course you feel abandoned, but that is the stuff that you're pushing back into the soil. That is the stuff you have to deal with for yourself. 22:43 J: Yeah. 22:43 T: In order for you to be able to think about whether there's a different way to build a relationship with your father. He is anxious about attachment with you as you are with him. 22:58 J: Oh wow. That's crazy, isn't it? Oh, that's a weird feeling. Wait, so...God. Do you know when you just feel like well, why didn't I know that all along? So really then, he is massively in pain then. As well. Isn't he? 23:19 T: I wonder, I wonder. 23:20 J: Wow, that's so interesting. 23:21 T: But think about this, Jack. You know what anxiety is, because you've lived with it. So fundamentally, you and your dad are quite similar in some ways. 23:29 J: That's funny. 23:30 T: Anxiety is the fight or flight response. 23:33 J: Yeah, it is! 23:33 T: So he either becomes difficult, argumentative, Sergeant Major, strong opinions, dogmatic. 23:40 J: Yeah. 23:41 T: Which is fight. 23:42 J: Yeah 23:42 T: When we're anxious. Or... 23:44 J: He goes away. 23:45 T: Which is abandonment of you. 23:47 J: And he's done that. So...he's done that. Yeah, he's done both. 23:50 T: So this is anxiety. 23:52 J: He actually does. He has, well, at the time when I was trying to get in contact with him, he'd been diagnosed with depression and he was on anti-depressants from the doctors. And my nan and grandad since have said it was an awful time, 'we were really genuinely worried about him'. And it's the first time his sister had ever hugged him in years, because they were that worried about, about his health. 24:10 T: So here we're now seeing a father who has deep seated anxiety, a complete fear that he is never going to be a good father, who therefore has a hands off approach to his biological children, because he doesn't know how to relate to them. 24:26 J: He doesn't know, he doesn't know at all. 24:27 T: And it makes him anxious. 24:28 J: Yeah. 24:29 T: Who is struggling with mental health difficulties, which he manages in his life by self-isolating, not having relationships. 24:36 J: Yeah, you're right. He does do that. Yeah, yeah. 24:37 T: So, this issue between you and him has never been about you. He is struggling. 24:47 J: I wish I'd have been told that how many years ago, 24:50 T: There was something you said again, really early on with Claude, and I'm going to leave you with this because it just really struck me when you're talking. You said, 'you know what the problem was, when we were little, all my dad wanted to do was stuff that I didn't like. He wanted to go walking, he wanted to go hiking.' Now I can imagine for somebody, a man with anxiety issues, with depression, with mental health issues, with deep seated attachment anxiety, walking outdoors is probably the only place that he felt... 25:19 J: He's obsessed with the outdoors. 25:21 T: Yeah, because he probably feels lifee closes in on him otherwise. 25:24 J: Oh my god, are you kidding me? I've actually got goosebumps now. This is weird. 25:32 T: And you're stopping yourself crying. 25:34 J: Because this is, this is...that's so, argh! When you put it all together like that, that's...that's so...that's so like all the pieces are coming together on the puzzle. It's like, he's always like walking, he's always been into fishing and camping, walking, you name it. I've bought numerous pairs of walking boots. And... 25:56 T: So I'm thinking... 25:58 J: I've never thought about that until...no one's ever said that to me, ever. I've and I'm...wow, you, you're right! I know you are, cause I can feel it. 26:02 T: So I think what he was trying to do there, he was trying to create a relationship with you, father to son, in an environment where he would, knew he'd be, he'd be his best self. You didn't like it because you were a kid. And that wasn't what you were into. 26:18 J: Wow. 26:19 T: So then he felt like he'd failed. 26:22 T: God I adore you. Sorry. This is mind blowing. Oh my god. You don't have any idea what this is like, this is like another level. Wow. You're taking the weight off, because you're saying...I knew he was in pain but you're literally showing me and saying to me to me that, 'wait a minute'. I know it, but I've, I'm really being told now that this isn't actually about me. Oh God, why didn't I think that...why didn't I see that earlier? 26:49 T: Because you're, you're living it, darling. And you're stamping that pain in the soil. So it's just choking you and it's clouding the view. 26:56 J: But, even what you've said about the walking and stuff. It's like. there's so many layers. 26:59 T: So Jack, I think you need a break. 27:01 J: Hell yeah. 27:02 T: And a cup of tea. So I'm going to give you some paper and maybe you want to write down your new narrative as we've understood it. 27:10 J: Yeah. 27:11 T: And we'll start the next bit with you, ou reading it to me. 27:14 J: Okay. 27:15 T: And if you wanted, you could write it as a short letter to your father. 27:21 J: Yeah. 27:43 C: Jack came in here today, and I am going to be completely honest. I thought this was going to be the up-sum. I made a fan of biscuits. You can have a look at them in a minute. I thought he's gonna come in and what you're going to have to teach him is to absolutely break with his father, but in a way that him makes him feel strong. I thought fine, this will be half an hour, maybe 27 minutes. Then we'll all have a cup of tea, we'll cuddle Jack, say 'so sorry, but you've got a wonderful mum and a wonderful sister', and send him on his way. And then...and then we ended up on such a different path that it, it threw...it didn't seem to throw you, but it really threw Jack and me. 28:22 T: This isn't about me ever telling anyone I work with what they should do. So I am not saying here to Jack, 'you must and can have a relationship with your father'. I think I just want to make that really, really clear. But for me, I think, because he has never really understood why this situation is the way it is and actually only I suppose today, he has been able to identify that he and his father have the same levels of anxiety, not just in terms of attachment, but in terms of anxiety and panic and he said his father's had mental health issues. Now that he has a different understanding, which I think it has given him clarity, he could think about attempting a relationship in a way that would work for both of them. If that doesn't work out, I think then at least he knows he has done everything he can to try and have a relationship with a man he wanted to be able to have a father-son relationship with. For me, it's, it's about, 'don't throw everything out until you've really thought about it and understood possibly why it's happening and how it could be addressed in a way that could possibly make it into a relationship.' Maybe not the Disney relationship he wants, but a relationship. 29:47 C: How did you know that his father had anxiety issues, because all I heard was a dad who left when he was six, came to see him about once every six months and enjoyed hiking. And, that's what the rest of us humans heard, but you, like a dolphin, had a different noise. 30:06 T: You've never called me a dolphin before Claude 30:07 C: 16 years, there's a first time for everything. Next week, it might be a squirrel. Okay? 30:12 T: Okay, I'll look forward to that. In my job, I'm kind of storing away little kind of bits of information that are coming out. So my job is about not listening, but really, really actively listening. So he'd already told you that when he spoke about the hiking and the walking, so I already thought, okay, here's a man who, you know, he needs space, he needs air. You know, this is this is what he tried to do to create relationship with his children and it didn't work. His kids didn't like it. So that was a shame. There was the, 'he'd take us out and he would ask us loads of questions. If we asked him anything, he'd never answer any personal questions'. Well, on the surface, that just looks like a quite an unpleasant, rather, you know, dogmatic, Sergeant Major type of man. But my job isn't to take the surface stuff, it's to dig underneath. It sounds like an anxious man. And also, Jack himself a struggle with anxiety. So you start to think, you know, like father like son. I mean, there is this kind of, something about the two of them, they mirror each other. And also a man who didn't want children. I suspect it's because he never felt he'd be good enough and therefore, becoming a father would have made him very anxious. And he's away five days a week. So how does he build a relationship with his children and he comes home and they're really close to their mother and their grandmother, a sense that he might have felt a bit on the edge of things. You can just, the narrative builds up and you can see. 31:40 C: What about the text though? So I heard the fact that Jack wrote a beautiful long, sensitive text, 'good luck at work', a loving text and his dad replied, 'okay, thanks'. Which if somebody ever applied 'okay, thanks'. I would delete them from my SIM card. Okay, not my parents, but it feels like a bit of a slap. But you say... 32:02 T: I suppose I would say, Jack and his father communicate very differently. And I suppose I would say Jack has had the benefit of really close loving relationships with women, his mother and his grandmother. So Jack is a communicator, Jack has, is of a generation that thinks about mental health. He understands himself so Jack can express himself. But it doesn't necessarily mean that that is something his father knows how to respond to. So is 'okay, thanks' basically saying, bugger off, or is 'okay, thanks' an acknowledgement from a man who, you know, struggles with emotion and connection and it makes him feel anxious. I think I put my money on that first. 32:51 C: Goodness. Tell me about the act of writing a letter. Why did you ask Jack to do that? 32:56 T: So, therapy is narrative writes about story. I think that's what you I, that's why we wanted to do this in the first place, wasn't it? We love the stories of life, we both sit and talk about all the things that we see, experience, we love to understand it together. That's our friendship. And I think that here you have a really interesting narrative and the narrative coming out of the conversation with me and Jack is shifting for him. Now, in order for him to understand it, he has to kind of rework it, he has to write it. So stories are often used in, you know, I'd worked with people who have lost a parent or a partner or a friend, and there's unfinished business, things that they've never said and they now wish they had. And so sometimes a letter can be a very symbolic way of allowing yourself to express what you need to express and then thinking about how you can process it so you can move on. In this case, this isn't a letter I'm suggesting he sends his father, because I don't think his father can do big displays of emotion. But I think it's a letter that enables Jack to understand, really understand how he sees things now, as a basis. How he can move forward if he chooses to, to try and create a relationship with his dad in a way that works for both of them. 34:08 C: Talk to me about boys who are brought up without fathers. 34:12 T: So there's about a million children in the UK, who currently have no contact with their father. I was just doing a bit of research about this before we met today. There's apparently I didn't know this, Claude, I'm sure you did because you're very clever. There are 236 towns in England and Wales, where more than 50% of households with dependent children are headed by a lone parent, most often a mother. So a lot of children grow up without the experience of having a father figure around and of those children, there will be a significant percentage who won't have an attachment with a father figure. So, some parents obviously separate but the kids have good relationships with both. So what we know is in terms of children who grow up without a father, where a father is absent, you if you look at for example, school dropouts, it's about 70% of school dropouts are children who have an absent father. And particularly with boys, the psychological outcomes for boys who have not had an attachment with a father or a father figure, through childhood and adolescence, they are so much more likely to struggle with mental health issues, issues with substance abuse, and other kinds of issues. So, the role of the father is so important, obviously, in all families, but particularly when you look at the psychological outcomes for boys, so I often meet boys and men who struggle psychologically and emotionally and it's significantly to do with the fact that they did not have a father around growing up. 35:58 T: I really enjoyed the chat this morning, I hope you found it helpful. 36:02 J: Yeah, very. I see it for what it is now. 36:05 T: What do you see, Jack? Tell me, 36:07 J: I see that actually, there's no fairytale, but there could be something. If I don't do this, I'll always think about what would have happened if I would have just tried. 36:19 T: And it might not. 36:20 J: N, it might not. 36:21 T: It might not happen. 36:22 J: And actually, that's okay. 36:24 T: So I asked you to write him a letter. 36:25 J: Yeah, shall I read it? 36:26 T: Did...oh you did! You wrote one. 36:29 J: So dad, wow. I see things in a whole new way now. Something I was never expecting. What's happened now can't be changed. And actually, I'm grateful for that, because I've learned so much. Finally, I realised it wasn't all about me. At last! I felt abandoned, hurt and thought I would never be enough. The thing is dad, we're both human. We both have emotions, even if you don't always want to recognise them, but that's okay. So, what happens now? Something I can't predict. If I've learned anything on my journey, it's that there's always a way forwards. Slow, yes. But nothing's impossible. Love jack. 37:07 T: Let's talk about your relationship with your dad first, then we'll talk about you and relationships in a minute. In that letter, which you're not going to send you dad, are you? That was really just you kind of... 37:17 J: I was processing it. 37:18 T: You were processing. 37:19 J: Onto paper. 37:20 T: Hundred percent was it great today? It was it's helpful isn't it? 37:22 J: Very, yeah. 37:24 T: Because in a sense, if you think about what we've done today, it's kind of called Narrative Therap. I've kind of helped you, if you like, rewrite the narrative in a way that I think is probably more representative of what has been going on. 37:36 J: Yeah. 37:37 T: And in doing so you feel lighter and you feel clearer. 37:40 J: With this new one now, it's all off me. 37:45 T: Remember we were talking about attachment theory earlier? Guilt and self blame is, is very much part of the difficulties in childhood. 37:55 J: Yeah. 37:55 T: Because when you're a kid, you don't understand the complexity of human nature. So, you're gonna blame yourself. You're gonna think I've been bad, I've been naughty. 38:03 J: Yeah, absolutely. 38:04 T: Right. And that, you carry on now. So when you have a friend who doesn't message you back quickly... 38:10 J: Right! You're right. You've got it in one again! 38:12 T: I bet you're one of these people on WhatsApp, who'll see the two blue ticks and then freak out that they haven't replied straightaway. 38:18 J: Yeah. 38:20 T: Are you? 38:20 J: Yeah. 38:20 T: When you now think about you and your dad, who would you say is the person with the greatest level of vulnerability? 38:28 J Him? 38:28 T: Yeah. Why? 38:31 J: I think he's got it because he's terrified. 38:36 T: Yeah. 38:37 J: Because of the way I've worked on myself and what I'm doing now, I almost, again, it's not my fault. But by me being who I am now, I intimidate him. 38:47 T: One hundred percent. 38:49 J: For me, I would never believe that until now. Because for me, I'm like, well, he's a masculine man, and I'm gay. How could I intimidate him? That's what I always think. Because you know, that's what I've always tended to believe. 39:01 T: Why did he reply 'okay, thanks', to your four paragraph long text? 39:05 J: Because he can't go there. 39:07 T: Hundred percent. 39:07 J: And now I'm like, actually he's intimidated by me. That's, that's really, I can't really get my head around it but I'm getting, it slowly. 39:18 T: Well, he's a man of it of a generation where this stuff was never talked about. 39:21 J: Yeah. 39:22 T: As a man, you are not ashamed to talk about vulnerability, anxiety, mental health. You've written a book, a book about it, you podcast about it right? With your dad, he came from a generation where this macho stereotype was... 39:36 J: It is, bcause of his dad. And actually that also goes back to how my granddad was bought up by his dad. And then you think, well actually, it kind of make sense. 39:45 T: So you're the first man in the family who can talk about emotion. 39:49 J: Oh, God yeah. 39:50 T: What about if you were to think about just walking, you don't even have to particularly talk. Just get used to being in each other's company. Build it slowly. 40:02 J: I that that's what would be the best thing to do. Just almost like just organically. 40:08 T: Jack, it might not be easy to begin with. It might be a bit awkward, but at least if you try and put it in an environment where you know, he's probably at his most comfortable, and you, you try and resist your urge to have a big therapy session as you're walking along the, the cliffs... 40:25 J: You know me so well! You really do, wow. 40:28 T: If you can just think, 'I'm just going to spend half a day with my dad walking', and if you manage to have a bit of chat about nothing, that's probably the most... 40:41 J: That might be better, mightn't it? 40:42 T: Well, it's a beginning. Then we get to the second bit of our story today, which is that you still do have the pain and quite understandably. There is something else that has to happen in terms of how you view your father, as that relates to your anger that I saw earlier in our conversation, so what else do you need to do when it comes to your father? 41:09 J: I need to accept him as he is. I need to accept him. Just let, let it happen and just accept him for how... 41:15 T: So you're right. You need to accept what's happened and you need to accept him for who he is. But with the anger and the defensiveness, when it comes to your father, there is another emotion that you need to be able to do. 41:29 J: What's that? 41:32 T: I think you need to forgive him, Jack. 41:34 J: Yeah, I do. Before I would have said it's so hard to forgive someone that's put you through so much pain and misery. But then when you get out of the victim mentality, that, there's served nobody either. You see...actually wait a minute, you actually do need to forgive him because you're actually hurting yourself more by not. 41:55 T: It's poison. 41:56 J: It is poison. You're literally...I always say holding a grudge is like drinking a glass of poison for breakfast, because it really is. 42:03 T: But why the tears in your eyes, now? What if you just realised? 42:08 J: I have hope now. All I'm gonna say is, there could be something. And guess what, something's okay. Not one of my relationships in my life is perfect. But, for some strange reason, I thought that the Disney relationship with my dad in my head would be perfect. But for some reason, it's almost like I was holding that one to a higher, an impossible, level. And actually, no, it will be just like all the others. It would just be imperfect and that's okay, because no one's relationships are perfect. 42:39 T: That's okay, Jack. And that's right. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. 42:44 J: I feel so light right now, you have no idea. 42:46 T: Well, I'm going to ask Claude to come in and help you process it a bit, without me in the room. 42:56 C: So you'll leave us, you'll chat to your mum and your sister. What's their reaction going to be when you say 'I see dad in a different light?' Or are you going to keep this close? 43:07 J: I think I'll keep it close only just for now. While I process it. I really feel like they'll get it. And again, you know, we won't kind of run before we can walk, it will be organic, but something could happen and it could. 43:27 C: But I don't want you to expect him to, put on some hike,nmaybe buy matching hiking boots... 43:33 J: No way. 43:34 C: You know, it might be... 43:36 J: No way, I'm not doing that. 43:37 C: Yes you are definitely hiking, even if I come with you. And I'm not very good at hiking. I'm 47. So, but, it'll be slow. 43:45 J: It will be will be slow. 43:47 C: Will you please let us know what happens? 43:48 J: I will let you know. Absolutely. 43:50 C: I'm also going to get you a thermos for your hiking. A personalised Jack thermos... 43:56 J: Love that. i 43:57 C: It's coming your way. Thank you. Thank you. 44:02 C: So jack left. He said himself, even if it isn't magical, even if they don't come together and have a very strong relationship, he has clarity. 44:12 T: Yeah. And I often think that that's what therapy is about. Just making some order out of the chaos that feelings and unprocessed emotion and it's chaos. And it's, I think, my job is generally about enabling people to find that narrative that makes sense. And that enables them to decide then, what they want to do next. Therapy is obviously about managing mental state. 44:41 C: Yeah. 44:42 T: But actually, I think sometimes we can do that at the expense of recognising that sometimes we simply just have to be able to tolerate distress. And I kind of feel like we're not great as a society. We're all sort of instant gratification, make things better. Make things change and sometimes sitting with painful feelings is the only way we're going to be able to accept them and process them. 45:08 C: I'm pleased you brought this up I discuss it with my teenagers a lot. The idea that we have to be happy all the time. 45:13 T: That's the surest way to make people miserable. 45:18 C: Cause we can't be happy all the time. I mean, it's not always doughnuts, foam bath and Brad Pitt at the door with a freshly made lasagna. 45:25 T: Would that make you happy, Claude? 45:26 C: I did it last Thursday was sort of so so. Can we go for a hike now? Thank you. 45:35 T: It's my pleasure. Come on. 45:38 C: Remember, do subscribe to get free shiny new episodes of how did we get here? As soon as they're ready. Please rate, comment and share with your friends. It just helps people to know that we're here. Next time, Lara. 45:52 Lara: You know, I'm not ever going to be the person I want to be. 45:57 T: That's heartbreaking. 45:57 L: I'm just me and that, I've just got to accept that. 46:02 C: If you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here, please email parenting@somethinelse.com, that's parenting@somethin(without a G)else.com. This podcast was possible with the help of the following people at Somethin' Else: the sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the assistant producer is Hannah Talbot, the producer is Selina Ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening Transcribed by https://otter.ai