Claudia 0:07 Please note there is some adult themes and strong language within this podcast that may not be suitable for everyone. Tanya 0:15 Do you seek validation from others by putting yourself out there really massively to try and keep everything happy. And then when somebody changes that dynamic and attacks you you feel really hurt because there is that part of you that just wants to keep things nice. Emma 0:33 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Claudia 0:36 Hello, and welcome to How did we get here where me Claudia Winkleman, and My Brilliant friend technical psychologist Professor Tanya Byron address challenges people are facing with their nearest and dearest. In each episode, we record a face to face session with me listening in from another studio in the breaks and at the end, I asked Tan why she went down certain routes. This time we meet Emma she's 47 and has a very supportive husband and two children aged nine and seven. Emma has ongoing issues with her brother, who she says hates her. He's four years older than her and lives in America. Emma and brother had a particularly bad falling out two years ago at Christmas, but she thinks the animosity goes much further back. Emma 1:20 I don't know if this is a funny thing to say. But I've always felt a really big jealousy from him. And my mom, actually, which is very strange. My mom always used to say that she's jealous of me. I don't know why or what. Tanya 1:30 Well because you had what she did. Claudia 1:34 What you're about to hear the key parts of a one time unscripted session with a real person. In this episode names have been changed to protect our identities. We follow up with our guests after the recording passing on useful links and contacts, which you will also find in the programme notes of this episode. Let's meet Emma. Claudia 1:59 Hello. Emma 2:00 How are you? Claudia 2:01 Good thanks. How are you? I'm Claude, thank you so much for coming. Emma 2:06 Thanks for having me. Claudia 2:07 Excellent jumper. Why are you here? Emma 2:10 Yeah, I'm stuff came up at Christmas, as it always does. And I have some really good elephants, mom and brother mom's long deceased. But as a mother, obviously she's kind of, you know, looming over. I just went and visited her whole family in Australia at Christmas time, which was really life affirming, and magical and amazing. And we've been showered in love, which was beautiful, but then my brother was there, who's just not that at all. Not that I'm expecting that from him. But yeah, it would just be really good to take a little view on that and, this sort of venomous hatred that has been throughout his entire life for me, I don't know what it is. He's so aggressive and so angry and I know that's his thing, but I still as a sensitive human being, I take it on and he brings up a lot of stuff with my mom, they bullied me quite a lot when I was younger and I just kind of going my self esteem is knocked a lot from that I'm really good. I meditate. But there's this big ghost and a lack of understanding. Claudia 3:07 I've got three kids there is sibling rivalry. There's quite a lot of 'oh that's because he's your favourite' if I put down some toast in front of him rather than I mean, I'm like guys. So lots of people will be listening going. 'well, that's sort of normal', but you used the word venomous. Which was quite alarming. Emma 3:23 Yeah, you know, I haven't seen much, he went to America, two and a half years ago. And I mean, he just went completely mad at me. Claudia 3:30 So you are a trigger for him? Emma 3:32 Yeah. Oh, my gracious me. And then I reacted really badly. Claudia 3:36 Well, not surprised. Emma 3:37 And it just was insane what it did to me. And it was great. I then went and had some serious therapy after that to try and sort of work out but yeah, there's this little child in me that just feels like it's really triggered by it. Claudia 3:48 So your question today is, how do I make peace with these two, ghosts? Yes, exactly. I think that is my question. Tanya 4:01 So nice to meet you. Emma 4:02 So nice to meet you too. Tanya 4:03 Thank you for doing this. Emma 4:04 Well, thanks for having me. Tanya 4:05 I heard you say to Claude, it's not so much you're you're wanting to understand it from your own perspective, you want some help to think about how you can feel it differently. Emma 4:14 I quite like to try and understand my brother's point of view. Okay, I don't see him very often. But then we do have these family gatherings every now and then Tanya 4:21 Do you go into them with a feeling of slight dread? Emma 4:23 I do but this year, there's going to be 22 of us. I knew it would be diluted, and it's the Aussie relatives I get on so well with but couple of years ago, I mean, cornered in an intimate space and he lost it with me and I lost it completely. Tanya 4:37 Give me a bit more detail about that event, because that feels like a big event. Emma 4:40 We were staying with him. He wasn't there much but he came up. I love him he's my brother, but we're just in the kitchen. I had an Airbnb crisis, and he just turned around and out of the blue and just when I can assure you that I do not care. I said to my husband, who's very Zen and very grounded. And I said, 'Wasn't that?' and he goes, Oh, yes. And then that Christmas we had with my dad. And my dad was really sick with flu, and I was trying to get my dad to bed. So admittedly I was being quite, perhaps a little bit bossy, protective of my dad, but I was like, 'Dad, you're really not so well'. And he just turned around, 'Will you just stop bossing everybody around.' And he just went off on a raid. I was prepping Christmas dinner, I just wanted to be, I was just trying so hard. Over trying as always, to make everything really nice. And you know, I just melted and just was totally inconsolable. But it's a build up. You know, he never gave me the time of day. And he's four years old and he's a boy so you know, perhaps that's pretty normal, but, Tanya 5:39 But it sounds quite verbally abusive. It's not that he's just annoyed with you. He does it in a way that you feel like you've been punched. Claudia 5:46 Yeah. And he's meant to be a Buddhist and has written a meditation book, teaches meditation. I just find him such a farse, because he's got this whole anger problem. You know? And it's scary. My eldest didn't really understand she was only about seven at the time and she was very confused by it. The little ones too little to really, you know? My dad, of course is the Englishman. He never intervenes. He's a wonderful, wonderful man, but he's very old school. He's a very liberal man for an old school guy. But he's got that, you know, boarding school at five. seen and not heard. Tanya 6:21 You said something a second ago. Just wanted to check in with you said, you know, 'as usual, I just wanted to make everything really nice for everybody.' Is that you? That's part of how you see yourself in life? Emma 6:32 I do, but I'm not controling, I don't think I'm super controlling. I'm not OCD or it doesn't have to be perfect. I just want everyone to be happy. Right? So I'm a bit of a hippie side. Tanya 6:41 I suppose what I'm asking you and I feel I can ask you questions at this level, because I know you've done a lot of therapy. Do you seek validation? Not necessarily consciously, but do you seek validation from others by putting yourself out there really massively to try and keep everything happy? Then when somebody changes that dynamic and attacks you, you feel really hurt. Because there is that part of you that just wants to keep things nice. Emma 7:09 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. No, I do need validation. I really do. Tanya 7:13 So the reaction of others can have a real impact on you. Emma 7:16 Yes, totally. Tanya 7:17 So one question, I suppose would be, why do you think you personalise the reaction of others to such a degree that it can cause such such distress? Emma 7:27 I think comes back to my childhood. Tanya 7:28 So tell me the story. Then what what's the story? Emma 7:30 Mum had been left when she was a child from the age of five to the age of eight, by her parents, they had gone off to America and she was left with her cousins and her grandma, which is very, very close to him that we spent Christmas with. And I think she should always felt this massive rejection. And this needs to be appreciated. Which I've definitely inherited. Tanya 7:53 So you've just put your hand up there as if to say, 'oh, gosh, it's a bit like me then'. Emma 7:59 Right. Totally need to be appreciated. And her mom died when she was 16. And she had this massive hang up. I don't think she had that much time with her parents. And she was very hung up on the fact that she didn't get to grieve for her mother. It was like a daily mantra. Tanya 8:15 She carried her loss and her abandonment throughout her life. Emma 8:20 And she's had an amazing career in New York, and then they'd gone to Africa, and had my brother and then come back to London and lived in a small village outside of London, and she was, you know, beautiful, funny, loud Aussie, and that did not go down very well to have arrived in that village in you know, in the 70s. Just the shock value of someone with a bit of free spirit and vivaciousness you know? And she really was. I would say from that moment on, there was a loss. I mean, there was a loss with her mum and then there was more loss from being in this small village. You know, they had a terrible time, property boom they were meant to be a bit closer to London they didn't do it so it ended up being a bit further out. My father spent 20 years with a hell commute. You know people have it all the time but it was it was really quite tough I think. Tanya 9:09 He wasn't around very much? Emma 9:10 He wasn't around very much. And she was brilliant when I was young she drove me around I did every extra curricular activity you could possibly imagine. We were like, you know, it's constantly doing fun stuff. But then there was always this just snide comments just her and my brother, my brother always just, you know, I mean really beating me blue. Tanya 9:30 When you think your brother beating your blue, so he used to beat you up? Emma 9:33 Yeah, as a lot of boys do. But he was ruthless, you know, there was never, mercilessly teasing me. Tanya 9:39 And what did your mother do when that was going on? Emma 9:42 My dad was an only child, my mum was an only child. And I just don't think they really knew what to do. They were like, 'Oh, she's irritating him.' Tanya 9:50 Okay, so that's the family story. You irritate your brother? Emma 9:52 Yes. Tanya 9:53 Okay. And when you said earlier, snide comments. Were you saying your brother making snide comments or your mother making snide comments? Emma 9:58 She would, she would they would gang together. They would group together. Tanya 10:01 Ah right and what would you remember? Emma 10:05 Silly things like, I used to tan quite easy so they'd sort of rub me in extra, extra super thick cream so I wouldn't tan and, not that I could care his child. Tanya 10:16 And laugh love where they laughing? Emma 10:17 Yeah, it was, it was. I felt, you know, definitely quite tormented. But that's all I knew. Tanya 10:23 Right. But you felt the difference in her relationship with your brother and how she related to you. Did you notice that as a child? Emma 10:30 I did. Yeah. Tanya 10:31 What did you notice? Emma 10:33 Well just they would always be together there was always like the sort of little sniggering and you know, teasing. I mean, my brother phoned me when I was 21 he was doing one of his self help things I can't which one it was, it was something. He goes 'I'm phoning to say that I'm really sorry for tormenting you.' Tanya 10:53 So he apologise to you? Emma 10:54 Yep he did. And he flew me out to America to stay with him and I went out it was it was fun, to an extent, and then that ended up really badly. It was a funny day we got up super early in the morning. Princess Diana died so we went and we'd watch that stupid o'clock in New York and then we jumped out of an aeroplane together as you do and then we've gone to some sort of art gallery thing that his friends did which was all very safe and tame and stuff. And then we'd gone to the most crazy party that was just incredible. And I was sitting with a bunch of rasters on the sofa, you know, rolling up a big doobie and just laughing my head off and having a great time and I could see he was so out of place and couldn't handle it at all. And he goes 'right, I'm gonna go now.' So I said 'i'd better get my suitcase.' So I remember following him down to get my suitcase, and he had a full tantrum, he kicked the lamppost, he threw his hands on the floor and he just couldn't deal, he just couldn't. Tanya 11:49 So when the dynamic is that his needs are being met, or he's controlling the situation that you and he are both in he's fine. But when the dynamic is about something about your needs, or you're trying to manage the situation, 'dad you need to go and have a rest.' Or you're in a situation where you're the one that's kind of having the fun and being up there and noticed, he can't deal with it. So hierarchically, he can deal with things, If he feels he's above you. Or if you're next to him, it's because he's brought you there, like flying you out to America. But as soon as you try and elevate yourself into a different kind of position, he's just not having that. He has to be number one. Can you see that? Emma 12:33 I've always felt a really big jealousy from him. And my mom, actually, which is very strange. My mom always used to say that she was jealous of me, I don't know why or what. Emma 12:42 Well because you've had what she didn't. It's not unusual that a parent can be jealous of a child having what they provide that child with, and you are the same same gender as her so you're the female child, so there is more likelihood that you are going to resurrect in her the kind of ghosts of her past. Then comes along the little girl, as you say at a time when things weren't working out for her and where she going to project that. She projects it on to you. Emma 13:11 Exactly. Tanya 13:12 And your brother was just a child, and she kind of pulls them into it. They both snicker together when they're kind of humiliating you by kind of wrapping you in tonnes and tonnes of tanning lotion. Oh, you tend to easily come on, then, hahaha, look at this. You can kind of see how this little thing is beginning to work itself out. Claudia 13:41 Tan, can we just stop the tape? The first thing I want to ask you about which I found completely striking is her lack of anger. Because I felt very angry. I felt sorry also for her mother because of what she went through. And I imagine her brother, he's got his own story, but I was angry with him for being jealous of her. I don't know whether it's fine that I'm this angry. And I'm also sad that she's not angrier, or should I be pleased? Tanya 14:11 I think she probably is angry. I just don't think she can tolerate how that would feel. You know, it is about how do you cope with something traumatic? And how do you cope with daily humiliations and snide remarks from your mother and your brother? You sort of normalise it and you say, Well, it wasn't that bad. And it happens to other people. Yeah, well, I am a bit irritating and so on and so forth. Because if you don't do that, and you do engage with the anger, that's really scary. So you know, it's a way of keeping a lid on things. Claudia 14:39 It sort of made excuses for her that her mum was beautiful and rare flower and exotic. Tanya 14:44 But I do admire that. I admire how understanding she is a lot of people just go straight to anger and don't want to understand because people say I'm not going to understand because if I understand that I'm condoning the behaviour. I don't think understanding something is condoning it. Understanding something is at least making more sense of it enough to be able to see why it happened. But the next step then is to look at the impact it has had on me as the individual experiencing it, even if I was a child when I experienced it. And at that point, you would process a number of feelings, including anger, but she's not there yet. What you then get is when her brother attacks her, she becomes the little girl. Claudia 15:31 Okay, thank you for explaining that. Back to the session Tanya 15:40 You don't really realise how subtly and sometimes very overtly abusive it is. Until you're an adult, and then you become a mother yourself? You start to think, 'hold on a sec, that wasn't okay'. Why is it making you, because you're getting thoughtful now. Emma 15:56 Well I'm just thinking of, there was a big thing, her father was not very well. I'd only see him every, you know, four years or so or whatever it is, you know, it's a long, long way to Australia, occasionally he come over. But he had dementia and he was a pervert and he used to grab me and stick his tongue down my throat, get out his dick and do all things that she knew perfectly well that it was going on, and she never said a damn thing that I find that really sort of a state. I just, I can't believe it. But you know what I said to my brother when I was in America? I said, 'What is that about mum, and that stuff?' He goes, 'you've got it wrong. Did you not see that time, that she went in and laid into him?' He goes, 'I've never seen mum so angry as that time.' And I said, 'well, that's all very well but no one soothed me. No one ever said a damn thing to me.' It's all very well I'm glad that she got angry that's really soothing to me to know that she did give a shit you know and go to her father. 'This is, you know, wrong.' I don't believe he was in a right mental state. Tanya 15:57 Do you think it happened to her? Emma 16:15 I knew she was abused by a friend of her father's. And I don't know if she was raped, she was certainly abused. Tanya 17:06 How old are you and this was happening? Emma 17:07 This is from about the age of I probably about seven. And he stayed with us for a while. And we had built in little extension for him downstairs because he was disabled. Tanya 17:15 So this is inappropriate sexual behaviour. Emma 17:19 And I think he died when I was about 11. Tanya 17:20 That's a traumatic experience. Emma 17:23 What it has done for me is that I seem to be a beacon when I was a child. It's not the only time I don't feel terribly abused. And I realised that I had a lot of interest whether I was just on holiday with my parents in Greece, and going to the shop to buy a sweet and the man trying to put his hand up my skirt, but it's just it's funny that I've had a lot of times. Tanya 17:45 A vulnerable child. A child, where somehow there's, a sense that you could be a child that could be abused. Emma 17:56 That's exactly it. Tanya 17:57 Well, this is often the case with children who are have abusive relationships in childhood you know as in your brother and your mother. As you said earlier, you normalise those relationships so therefore, predators will sense those children who somehow they think might accept the behaviour that is happening. Emma 18:20 I just thought that was the way men were. Tanya 18:22 Well your grandfather's been doing it so yeah. But it's interesting also what you said earlier, and you were really tearful then when you said you know, okay, so your brother says, 'No mum did go in' and she had a go at him. But your point I think is really important. You're glad to know that, but what you really craved was her coming and soothing you. And that makes you feel so sad. Emma 18:46 It does, it does I just can't believe she wouldn't. She couldn't have done that, because you know, it's a child, a vulnerable child. For her to come up and go, you know, 'it's not right what my dad's doing or grandpa's doing.' Give me a hug. Go, you know. That's what I find so sad in perhaps what her baggage had for her, that she wasn't then able to give to me. The idea that anyone touched one of my girls, oh my God. Just doesn't even bear thinking about. Tanya 19:17 I'm thinking about if your mother was abused by this other person and so on. If she'd had these experiences, what she was able to do when she knew that it had happened to you, she was able to, to face her father, the perpetrator, but what she wasn't able to do was to offer you the comfort that you desperately I think to this day still need from her because no one did it for her. She doesn't know how to do it. And I can see that having a female child for your mother was extremely triggering. Emma 19:54 So right. Tanya 19:57 And your brother got pulled into that. Emma 19:59 Yeah, and I feel really sorry for my mum, really I do. Tanya 20:03 But thinking about your mom, I mean, she obviously had a very difficult early life. But were there any other issues that she struggled with as an adult? Emma 20:11 Yeah, I mean, she did. She'd get, you know, shit faced. Tanya 20:14 So your mother was an alcoholic? Emma 20:16 She was Yeah, yeah. But I mean, not until much later, she had a skiing accident and immobile and in a small village, on the edge of a small village. So it's probably six months she was out. You know, it's a long time for someone who's really sort of, well for anyone. She pressing all these flowers and sending them out to people. She was just reaching out and no one was there for her when she needed them. So when I got back from boarding school and they were there. There were the witches. Tanya 20:42 Who were the witches? Emma 20:43 This this group of supposedly have friends from the village. They're all going, 'your mum's gone mad.' And you sense that, and the poor lady, I really believe did go completely potty, and was you know, sectioned and taken off. She went into hospital for a very long time and then got hereself out, and just stopped takling her drugs and so she ended up being sectioned again when she came out that was it, she lost her joie de vivre and she's slowly drank her way to an early grave over the space of about 15 years. Tanya 21:09 How old was she when she died? Emma 21:10 60. Tanya 21:12 Oh, goodness. Emma 21:14 She didn't wanna live. She didn't want to live, you couldn't really do anything. And I was very much there and bless my dad was very much around then. I really have a good image of my dad. Tanya 21:21 Definitely you understand your mother's story. I feel you're very conflicted. I think on the one hand there's aspects of your mother you admire hugely, but there's other parts of you that feel really let down by her and really angry and sad that she didn't nurture you as her little girl. Emma 21:43 That's exactly it. Tanya 21:45 What she lacked in her childhood, is what you lacked in your childhood. And for both of you one of the results of that is needing the validation of others when you think you're trying your best and doing the best you can. And now that takes us to your brother. Emma 22:10 It's interesting that that my brother sort of got dragged into it. That's quite soothing for me. Tanya 22:18 I feel he's a victim as much as you are. He felt like a perpetrator. And of course he was in a way, but of course he was a child. Emma 22:28 You're right. I haven't given him a chance to wear the child cap ever. Tanya 22:33 Okay, but hold on. I'm not sitting here going. Let's now feel sorry for your brother here. Because fundamentally, he is now an adult man. He has a lifestyle that is all about forgiveness and kindness. And so he has responsibility for the way he treats you. He's in his late 40s early 50s He's verbally abusing you with such a level of aggression, that it discombobulate your entire family, and he does it so that it affects your children. That's not okay. So I am not going to let you zoom down a road of compassion for others, because fundamentally, I think the thing you're the least good at is caring for yourself. Emma 23:30 I've got better for myself, as times gone on, but it took me a long time. Tanya 23:34 But it's so interesting to me that as soon as I said, 'Hold on, stop, he still shouldn't have done that to you.' The most tears sprang to your eyes and a rolling down your cheeks. So I'm curious about that. Emma 23:46 There's just no kindness there. There's no kindness and I find it astonishing that he can function like that. Tanya 23:54 He was always the Little Prince wasn't here? I mean, again, I think about your family. I'm trying to think systemically. So I'm thinking about systemic therapies where somebody is thought about as part of a unit. So relationships and family this is different to individual therapy when we're thinking about you, right? So think about the family, your father was present but absent, I'm sure he was loving and kind, but he didn't really intervene. So really, it was the three of you. So your brother became the alpha male, and probably your mother's kind of significant attachment. So he was elevated to an extraordinary height from a very young age. You can kind of understand why that makes him quite a selfish, perhaps quite narcissistic person. And that was validated further when your mother was able to show him that by allowing him to join her in putting you in your place, and Reducing you to something that was less good? Yeah. So he has been really set up to be a narcissist almost, hasn't he? Emma 25:08 He has, you're absolutely right. you've got it, he really is. Tanya 25:12 So how you complain about your Airbnb. Not interested in your needs never happened never will be. But that's kind of the script right? You and your brother continue to play out the same script. So the question is, what do you want to do about it? Because I think you've got two options. One is, you accept your brother for who he is, and find a different way to deal with his behaviour towards you. And I would suggest that would be something about responding as an assertive woman, rather than as a broken child. Point number two, and therapists do help people do this is you can decide that you don't want to have a relationship with your brother anymore. There are people I've worked with and colleagues of mine have worked with, where actually the job of a therapist is to enable that person to recognise that for their mental health, emotional health, psychological health and well being, their life would be better if they ceased to have relationships with those family members. And there is a charity, it's called standalone who actually, as a charity, set up to support people who are estranged or estranged themselves from their families. So I think those are those are your options, and maybe we could take a break, you could consider the two options that I put to you because I think that's pretty much where it is. Unless you and he can go into some kind of family therapy with somebody like me. I don't think it's going to change. The only thing that can change is you. How you feeling now before we take a break, I want to check and what he thinking? Emma 27:02 Yeah, I'm feeling very, it's been a really good conversation. I'm feeling helped. Tanya 27:10 It's a different perspective isn't it? Claudia 27:26 Buckle up because I have 9 million questions. Tanya 27:29 Okay. I'm ready. Claudia 27:31 You mentioned I think hierarchy in the family. How difficult must have been for me to be brought up in a house where she was treated completely differently from her brother? Tanya 27:40 You know, there are times when we might look at our kids and go, 'oh i really don't like you', and we might love different bits of different kids for different reasons. And our kids will at some stage say or you've always liked her more than me. That's normal. But yeah, I think your question is when is just as Stark and obvious, but then that comes to looking at the structure of Emma's family growing up. Claudia 28:04 A particularly heartbreaking moment was when her grandfather was being inappropriate with her abusive. Tanya 28:11 That's a nice way of putting it. Claudia 28:12 I didn't know how else to say it. Was abusing her. And she said, 'I just wanted to hug.' Tanya 28:17 Comfort is the most important thing. There are experiments done where animals will forego food to be held. You know, so being loved being nurtured is what we primarily crave over anything, anything else as humans. Claudia 28:37 I love my siblings, we comfort each other. You love your sister. I wonder if he was comforted because why has he never comforted her? Tanya 28:45 Well, I do think he's a victim of the situation as much as Emma is. And actually I think Emma's mother is a victim of her own circumstances. You know, victims can become victimizers, if you don't really understand what it is that you're carrying the legacy of your own abuse, neglect, loss, bereavement. I mean, all the things that Emma's mother experienced in her own life. Plus it sounds like she had some significant mental health problems that emerge later on in life. You know, you carry this emotional baggage if you like, and it is triggered, we are triggered. I mean, this is a normal part of the human condition. But the challenge for Emma, I think, and what I'm keen to talk to her about now is, what does she want to do? She understands it. Claudia 29:28 Talk to me through those options. Because I've, heard about it once about, actually sort of purposeful estrangement. Tanya 29:37 Unless everybody as the adults in the family agree that change would be helpful, which is unlikely. What choice do you have? Well, it's not working for you to continue to be the scapegoat, or the aggressor, or whatever role you find that you continue to play out in the family, even though you're all adults now grown up. So that's not working for you, because you know, your mental health is struggling, etc. And... Claudia 30:03 It affects other relationships. Tanya 30:04 100 percent. And so, there are some people were actually, it is in their best interests to not have any relationship with their family because it is so toxic. Claudia 30:18 And I imagine a very difficult decision to make, but often, empowering. Tanya 30:25 Yeah, I think so. Claudia 30:26 You mentioned a charity that helped people if anybody is listening and needs it. Tanya 30:30 Stand alone it's called. Yeah, absolutely. But I think it's a difficult decision to make. You're right. And actually, it is like a bereavement. Because then in a sense, it's a loss. But I have worked with people over the hundred and 50 years, I've done my job where I can understand why it was the only choice they had available to them. Claudia 30:50 And finally, just before we get Emma back, I just want to ask you one thing. You talked about her brother being a narcissist, we use that word quite a lot these days. 'Oh he's a narcissist.' What clinically, what does it mean? Tanya 31:03 It's self love. It's about everything comes from my needs. It comes from my needs, my beliefs, It's all about me. It's not I'm not really empathising with you. I'm not thinking about you. I'm not thinking in that moment that maybe dad is unwell. And so I can understand why my sister wants to take him upstairs to a restaurant Christmas Day. I'm thinking, there she goes, again, trying to dominate, It's my time with Dad, it's all about me, so I'm going to yell at her and I'm going to get dad on my own. So I'm not saying he is a narcissist, just to be clear, but there are narcissistic tendencies that he seems to show from what she's told me. But why wouldn't he have because he was the prince? He was on a pedestal. His mother adored him and adored him to the extent that she validated his position, by invalidating his sister in front of his eyes and giving him permission to do the same thing. Claudia 31:53 Okay, back to the second half of the session, where you give practical advice. Tanya 32:11 You needed to get some air after our conversation. Where are you now in terms of? Emma 32:16 Yeah, I definitely know the answer. The answer is to not engaged with my brother too much, but to be able to deal with him when I need to. For the odd family gathering, which doesn't happen very often, but you know. Tanya 32:28 But I suppose what I notice is that when you and your brother have these moments, you both regress back to the children. Perhaps, the child in you, maybe she doesn't need to show herself in the moment with your brother. Even if your brother is struggling not to regress back to being the child he once was with you. Maybe you can hold on to the assertive woman that you are now. Emma 32:56 No, I love that, you know, an empowered assertive woman, it It feels a good thing to aspire to be. Tanya 33:02 In that moment. What as an adult, do you want to say to your brother, when he tears into you in such a spectacularly aggressive way? What would you suggest to a friend? Emma 33:19 I would say, you know, go and seek some therapy. I think you know, he needs to be soothed. Tanya 33:24 Okay, so you would tell your brother, you need to go and have therapy? Emma 33:27 Yeah, I'm not sure what kind of therapy. Tanya 33:28 Why would you give him advice? Emma 33:33 Because I think that's probably what he... Tanya 33:35 But that's not going to help is it that's going to trigger him. Emma 33:37 Oh you reckon? Okay. Tanya 33:38 My sense is, if someone who is occupying quite a narcissistic position in themselves in a moment. And I'm trying to dominate you and tell you you're bossy. You always do this, you're ruining my time with dad, etc. And then what I met with is you need some therapy. Doesn't feel like it's going to diffuse anything. It doesn't feel it's going to manage anything and quite frank I don't think that's he's not gonna hear that anyway. But the point is, if you say to your brother, I think you need you need some therapy, what you're doing is you're attending to what you think he needs. And it's so interesting. I just think you struggle to know how, how to articulate what you need. Okay, so let's take it down to really basic in a playground, when you're doing conflict resolution with children, and we're trying to teach children to articulate to each other, what they don't like, and how it makes them feel and to put a boundary in. What is that child saying to the person that is being a bully to them? Emma 34:50 Just leave me alone. Tanya 34:56 You're stumped. Emma 34:57 Yeah, I am a bit actually. Tanya 34:59 Okay. Let me ask you series of questions and why do you think he snapped to you in that moment in that way? Emma 35:06 Because he was having a chat with dad. Tanya 35:09 He was upset with you for stepping into a moment that he felt he was having with his father. Emma 35:15 I believe so. Tanya 35:16 Right. Okay. That's point one. So that's probably why he was angry. Okay. What do you think about the way he got angry with you? Emma 35:26 very childish. It went from white to red. Tanya 35:29 He had a tantrum. So in that moment, as an adult woman, you are speaking to the child in him. So rather than the child in you responding to the child, and becoming broken and sobbing, as you did were now asking you to be the adult. So you're a mother of two little kids, when a child has a tantrum, I suppose there are two parts to it isn't there. Part number one is, I understand you're frustrated, because mummy has said you can't have another story. Because it's time to go to sleep. Part Number two is however, it's bedtime, and it's not okay for you to be screaming and thumping like this. So mummy's going to leave now. I'll see you in the morning. So you have point number one, an explanation and understanding. Point number two, a boundary and a consequence. Emma 36:18 Yes, story of my life. Brilliant with point number one easy to deal with. Point number two, totally out of my depth. Even with my parenting and everything that I do I just kind of. Tanya 36:27 Because you don't want people not to like you? Emma 36:28 Yes, exactly. Exactly. Tanya 36:31 Yes. Yeah, we'll just remember you're not your daughter's friend. You are their mother. So sometimes they've got to have that for me, because otherwise I'll never be able to deal with it from the rest of the world. Emma 36:40 I have put a few things into place. Tanya 36:42 Yes, you know, life is tough and shit sometimes, and we've just got to kind of learn the resilience so it's the resilience. Therefore, if we've got a two part approach to your assertive, adult, woman response to your brother, who in that moment has been verbally abusive to you. The first part of it is the one that you you can do in your sleep, which is explained to him. You understand why he's behaving like that. So what would you say to him? Emma 37:11 I understand that you're frustrated. But dad is... and I always do this. Tanya 37:19 No, no. No but, no but. Emma 37:21 Dad, dad, has flu, and I... Tanya 37:24 No, no explanation. I'm not asking you to tell him why you're doing it. I'm asking you, just to tell him why you know, he has behaved like that. So he's yelled at you. Tanya 37:40 It's like, 'Okay. I'm sorry. I can see I've upset you.' 'I probably invaded your space. You want to have a moment with dad totally get it. Except that. But don't you ever speak to me like that, again. Your response is not acceptable. I will not have you speak to me in such an abusive tone. And I want you to be mindful that my daughters have witnessed this. And I want them now to witness their mother asserting herself in the face of unnecessary aggression. Come on, girls, let's go make a cup of tea.' Emma 37:40 Yes. Emma 38:17 That's brilliant. Tanya 38:19 Why are you crying sweetheart? Emma 38:20 Because I just feel a bit of fear. I guess of that side. You know? Tanya 38:24 What are you afraid of love? What would happen then he might get more angry, but the point iS. Emma 38:29 This whole sort of, like, bit of self loathing going 'oh my god, I wish I just fit in.' And just be like, you know? The normal mums. Tanya 38:37 Just like your mother tried to be in the village where she would never fit. And it's her conflict. There's so many bits of your mother's experience in you. Emma 38:49 Yeah, there's a really big fear of asserting myself. Yeah, of being able to say that. What you said was brilliant, but I can't see that I would ever have the balls, to do it. It makes perfect sense. Tanya 39:01 Of course you can you just need some support to find that voice. No one has ever given you that voice. Emma 39:08 But it's also that my brother knows that I can be trampled. Would I be able to sustain that and you know be the empowered strong woman or would I just be like. Tanya 39:17 All you have to do say two sentences and walk away. Emma 39:20 I'm terrible with confrontation I'm really not. Tanya 39:23 Of course you are because you have normalised incredibly abusive and toxic experiences from when you were a very little girl, and, I think as the least favourite child you probably did an awful lot to try and make your mother like you and and make her happy and overcompensate hundred percent yet again and again. And I guess Absolutely. But in that moment, I wouldn't think about your brother and his response to I think, how do I want to do this for my children because as soon as you put your children at the front of your thinking, you'd run through a, a hail of bullets, wouldn't you? Emma 39:58 I would and that actually would empower me. It's to think of them and not to think of myself in that. Tanya 40:03 A hundred percent. Emma 40:04 I would love to be able to, you know, be that person and I can when I think of them, as you say. Tanya 40:09 In that moment, it is about finding a voice, that your girls can also begin to learn to internalise. Because what they saw on the day, was their mommy absolutely broken. That's what they're left with. And what you want them to be left with is a sense of empowerment from a young age that you never will give you and never given that. So that is your gift to them. Emma 40:33 Yeah, so true. So true. Tanya 40:37 Has this been helpful? Emma 40:38 Yeah. Really, really, really helpful. Thank you. Claudia 40:49 How do you feel? Emma 40:50 Oh, God, fantastic. That last bit was just, really. Yeah. Yeah. I feel really, really empowered actually, it was brilliant. I feel like, it's like i've just kind of had a grown up pill. Claudia 41:05 Yeah, Emma 41:06 You take one, you know that's my of course that's my intuition and my primal instinct is to want to say that stuff but I don't I just go (crying sound). Claudia 41:15 No, because we all we we take on roles and we repeat don't worry? And we all need a grown up pill. I love that. Let's make some. Emma 41:23 Yeah lets make some . Claudia 41:24 When you like seeing him? It's like we need you to see him for this to happen Emma 41:28 Probably two Christmases time. Because next year will be the, you know, the 'off Christmas' if you see what I mean? Claudia 41:33 But do you feel okay sitting with that, knowing that that's in your armoury now? Emma 41:38 Well i'd quite like to jump on a plane. Claudia 41:40 I mean I felt really bad but I was like, 'I would like there.' Of course I don't want any conflict. But, just because I feel like you feel bold and strong. You're sitting differently. Emma 41:51 I do that last bit was just a gem. That was like the package was opened, and we're sort of like, you know, getting it all together, but that was like the big buck off bow, with gold and you know the most chintzy pitch whatever bow you could possibly manage, and it's massive. I feel really like I could just you know, take the bugger by the horns and say you know, 'enough is enough' and that's basically it enough is enough. Let's move on. Claudia 42:20 Don't talk to me like that, just don't talk to me like that. But also how wonderful that then you'll leave us you'll go and pick up your lovely girls from school, you said you were going to do the school run, and you're off with this little this nugget. Emma 42:33 Well its not little, giant, big ball of strength. The heart is always there but I've got this six pack. Claudia 42:40 That's what she does. Yeah that's what she does, she gives you a six pack. You are Peter Andre. Emma 42:46 God forbid. Claudia 42:48 Thank you for coming in. Emma 42:49 Thank you. Claudia 42:56 Can we talk about Emma? She was sitting differently when I came in at the end, what is that? Tanya 43:02 You know, we did a bit of work around how to be assertive, which is to acknowledge why someone might be angry, I can understand you feel angry because and then make a statement about their behaviour and how it isn't acceptable. And I think she understood that. But then I think what was clear was she was struggling with whether she could deliver that. And I think the moment for her was when I helped her think about why she would deliver that and when I suggested it was perhaps less about delivering it for herself, but more about delivering it for her daughters. Claudia 43:41 The penny dropped. Tanya 43:42 Because that's when, yep. Claudia 43:43 Even if people who are listening haven't experienced what she's experienced. I think that idea of just standing up to a tormentor, whether it's a boss, or a friend who always makes you feel a bit small, or a partner, I think what you've taught her is fascinating? Tanya 44:01 You know, we often struggle with being assertive, because often we need to be assertive in moments of anxiety. And as we know, anxiety is the fight or flight response, we actually either become aggressive, which is fight, or we withdraw and say nothing and sort of break down and fall apart and become distraught and despairing, which is flight. That makes sense, doesn't it because when you're anxious, your rational brain, your prefrontal cortex is not active, you're much more limbic, you're much more in the part of your brain, which is about survival. So it does require us in a moment of anxiety and nothing makes us feel more anxious than some family historical crap that gets played out every Christmas, every birthday, every whatever. When we're anxious, we need to be able to take a breath and we almost need to be able to step back from ourselves and think, what am I dealing with here? And how do I want to manage it? But I do want to make this point. In families, where these things happen between siblings, the siblings themselves have got into this dynamic because they themselves are trying to cope with the toxicity and the dysfunction of the family. So I don't want her brother to be seen as the villain of the piece. Claudia 45:17 No, understand. Tanya 45:18 His behaviour is unacceptable. It is not acceptable on any level for anyone to be abusive to anyone else. No. But he was also a child. So therefore, if she can help herself, and become the adult in the room in that moment, maybe as a role model not just to her daughters, but to her brother. She can help him. Claudia 45:42 Thank you so much. Tanya 45:44 I feel tired, you feel tired. Claudia 45:45 Can we go and have a nap together? Tanya 45:47 That would be nice. Claudia 45:48 I've got a heavy top duvet follow me. Tanya 45:49 Have you got chocolate? Claudia 45:50 Cause I have. Hello? Claudia 45:57 And a little reminder to please click on the subscribe button. You'll receive free episodes the minute they're ready, and do rate comment, I mean, please be nice if you can, and tell everyone you know about us. If you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email parenting@somethinelse.com that's parenting at something without a g else .com Thank you. Next time we meet Naomi: Tanya It's fascinating to me that the parts of your personality that i think are the most impressive are the parts that you don't even notice as being valuable. Naomi I know somewhere, I've got it a bit wrong in my head, like I'm not seeing it in a way that would be most helpful for me, i'm seeing it a little bit mixed up. Claudia 46:46 This podcast was made by the following lovely people at something else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The system producer is Hannah Talbot. The producer is Selina Ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner with addiction No production from Steve Ackerman. We want to thank you so much for listening. Transcribed by https://otter.ai