Tanya It's fascinating to me that the parts of your personality that I think are the most impressive, are the parts that you don't even notice as being valuable. Naomi I know somewhere I've got a bit wrong in my head, like I'm not seeing it in a way that would be most helpful for me. I'm seeing it a little bit mixed up. Claudia Hello, and welcome to How did we get here where me Claudia Winkleman, and Professor Tanya Byron, clinical psychologist and my very good friend, have a conversation with people who are struggling in some way in their lives. Tanya talks to people in a one-to-one session whilst I'm in the room next door, ready to ask questions in a break and at the end. This time we meet Naomi, who in her early 30s lives with her mom and feels like she can never grow up. Naomi suffers with Crohn's disease and endometriosis. As a result, she often feels extremely tired and finds it hard to maintain a full time job, or meet a partner. Naomi really wants to find her independence. Naomi How do I occupy that adult space? Knowing that actually, I'm quite safe where I am now. Claudia What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one time unscripted conversation with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the notes of this episode. Let's go and meet Naomi. Naomi How are you? Claudia I'm Claud Naomi Hi, nice to meet you. Claudia Why are you here? Naomi Yeah, I've had Crohn's disease since I was 14. It sort of stopped me from being able to do a lot of what I've wanted to do. So, I'm 31 now I've also got endometriosis. And I'm kind of being told, if you want to have kids now, you should be doing that. But, for the last four years, I haven't been able to work, I've mainly been stuck at home. I think I'm beginning to realise, you know, I'm not going to be in the position to have kids. You know, at times I can't even look after myself. So how could I look after a child? I kind of just wanted to talk that through and find out where I am about it. Claudia Tell me what having Crohn's means for your day-to-day. Naomi It varies a lot. So, I have periods where I'm quite well and I can do things like most other people. Admittedly, I'll be a lot more tired, so I'll get fatigued easier. But, when I've been unwell, so like over the last four years, I'll be in a lot of pain. I'll be really fatigued, I won't be able to do much. I've had a lot of operations, injections, drugs. Yeah, I've got an ileostomy now. It's a lot of maintenance. Claudia What is an ileostomy? Naomi An ileostomy is a stoma, and that's where they get a bit of your gut. So for me, that's the small intestine, and they create an opening in your stomach and stick it out. So, you have a bag attached to your stomach and you're going to the toilet through that. Claudia Did that ease some of the pain though? Naomi Since having it done, I have felt a lot better. In the last month I've just started working, which is huge for me. Absolutely huge. And I'm loving that. Claudia So, I imagine living with this condition means you also sort of can't plan? You can't say, Yeah, I'd love to go bowling next Thursday, because then if you wake up, you're having a bad day. That must be quite difficult. Naomi Yeah, that's hugely difficult. Dating is impossible. Because, how do you explain to someone you've just met, I might cancel once, twice, three times? And it doesn't matter how much I want to go, if it's a bad day, a bad day. And my friends understand that but, with someone you don't know, that's a bit tricky, because they're worried, you know, does this person even like me? Are they messing me around, what's going on? Claudia Even though I'm sure you'll meet somebody brilliant, you are brilliant, incidentally. No, I can tell. You will meet somebody wonderful, who will totally understand because, I think I'll just have to be upfront from the beginning. Go sometimes I feel like I can fly and sometimes I just have bad times. Because you're now living with your mom who's safe. Naomi Yeah. Claudia What's that like? Naomi She's sort of provided me with this safe haven, which is lovely of her. So I was living with friends, and they started moving away and doing their own thing. You know, I wasn't earning for a very long time. I can't afford to even rent a place for just one person. But it doesn't, It doesn't feel like I'm an adult. Claudia Yeah, you have a brilliant brain. You've done so much online studying haven't you've got lots of degrees. Naomi I love learning. And whenever I get that space to study or to work, and I'm well enough, that's a really happy place for me. I love it. I think the hardest part of beng ill was my brain got really foggy. I couldn't read. I couldn't study. It's really stalled me, going that next step and lifting off. Claudia Sounds so difficult, because it's not even if somebody said, look, it's gonna be hard three months, you know in 2021 January to March is gonna be a bit tricky, but you don't, you're not, you don't know anything. Naomi No. So say. Not last year, year before, you know I was running. I was boxing. So, for one month I did really well. Then, two months later I'm having emergency surgery and everything's gone tits up. Nothing is certain I can't plan anything. Claudia Which so many of us take for granted. You know, planning. Naomi Yeah. Claudia So, you're here because you feel stuck? Naomi I don't want to be in this space in five years or 10 years. Out of the control that I do have, what can I do? Claudia I'm going to get Tanya to come in. Naomi Okay. Claudia Alright. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us. Tanya You said, Claudia, you said you felt stuck. Where do you feel stuck? I suppose is my question. Naomi I don't know how to almost view myself. I feel like a child, because I am dependent on my family. How do I occupy that adult space, knowing that actually I'm quite safe where I am now? When I'm dating now people ask, do you want kids? And usually I kind of go, maybe I don't know. But actually, I think I need to really concentrate and think if I do want kids, I need to proactively make that happen. Because in a few years, particularly with the endometriosis, that might not be a possibility. It might not be a possibility now. Tanya There are lots of ways to have a child harvesting eggs, surrogates, adoption, that sort of stuff. Where do you see your options? Naomi There's a small genetic component in Crohn's. So, I think I'd almost perfect to adopt, and then that takes away the time pressure. I mean, ideally, I'd like my own kid. If I'm actively trying, and then I'm working with gynaecology, and they notice that it's not working, they can offer me those options. But if I'm not trying, you know, that's not, that's not possible. What they've said, is is start early in a start early. So we've got time to kind of go through these options and try them. Tanya I still, need your help, in terms of what you mean by stuck. Because actually, the more you talk, I can see that you really have thought about this. So, do you feel stuck in terms of taking that step back into really dating and kind of, you know, you said something about not being in an adult space all the time when you're living at home? Naomi Maybe it's almost about competition with my peers and stuff, because when I'm ill, I do feel knocked back. I do feel like I'm not in the same position. There's nothing talk about, what have you done today? I've laid at home, I've done nothing. Tanya I just wonder whether you've lost a sense of who you are. Because, it sounds like you're saying, I'm kind of meaningless when I'm unwell, which makes me think that you're chronic illnesses, your chronic diseases, to some degree define you, in your mind. Naomi So I've had people say, you know, you shouldn't let your illness define me. And I find that quite difficult. Because, yeah, because how do you explain? Well, actually, that's wiping out 50-60% of my life, that's taking away quite a lot of what's going on. So it has to be in there. Tanya That sounds like you're saying, fundamentally, unless I do meaningful stuff all the time in terms have daily function and a job, I am meaningless. Naomi I think that will pretty much adequately sum up how I think about it. Yeah. Tanya Is some of the limitation that you're feeling, as in a feeling of being stuck, something to do with the limitations that you have when you think about yourself? Because it's like, it's almost like you've split yourself into two people, your well self and your unwell self. And it's almost as if, that's where I can see that Crohn's defines you to a degree. Naomi Yeah. Tanya And it's almost like you're saying, but my unwell self could never be a mother, could never be a partner, isn't interesting to people, you know, has no value. And I wonder whether it's a perception that you have that I have to help you shift, because I'm not sure why when you're unwell, you couldn't also be those things. It just would be much more difficult, but with the right people around you, why couldn't you continue to maintain your sense of who you are, whether you're unwell or well? Naomi Well, me is in control is is you know, able to do presentations, meetings, loads and loads of work. Unwell me can't leave the house. Tanya It's hugely different. But you're still the same you. And I wonder if that's why you're stuck. Because, it's almost like it's impossible to make a decision when you've got two perceptions around the same thing that's coming from the same person. It's like, I could be a mother if I think of myself as well me. Naomi Yeah. Tanya I don't think I could be a mother, If I think of myself as unwell me. Naomi Yeah. Tanya And so these big decisions about moving forward, maybe meeting a life partner and all those things. That's where you're now stuck. Naomi Yeah. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Tanya Because of the sort of dichotomy between these two iden.. it's like, you've got two different identities. Is it that because you know yourself as being such a functional woman, when you're unwell, the perception of yours, of having no value that you you say comes from others. I'm wondering whether it actually is how you see yourself in those moments? And therefore something in you completely shuts down. Beyond just the physical shutdown, that obviously happens, because you're not well. And I'm just wondering whether parts of the process for you now is about valuing yourself even when you're unwell, because I don't think you do. I think it's very difficult for you to respect yourself almost in those times. This has made you upset, hasn't it. I obviously don't want to make you upset. Naomi Yeah. Tanya But, I can see this has really hit a nerve for you. Naomi I don't value myself so much. Then, because the things that I really like about myself are things I can't, I can't do when I'm ill. But I've been able to write an essay really, really quickly, that's really high standard. And that, you know, that kind of gives me the same satisfaction as some people might get from playing music really well or making a beautiful painting. I know people love me. I know they value me. I know they don't mind helping me Tanya You don't value yourself? Naomi Yeah, I really like people who, who do things and use their abilities to try and improve the world around them as far as they can. Tanya And why would you say you don't do that? Naomi I do when I'm well. Tanya Okay, so this is gonna, this is gonna be really interesting for you, because I don't often say this to people, but I totally disagree with you. Naomi Okay. Tanya I mean, good for you. You got a first, I mean well done you. That's amazing. But what's impressive about you, I think is how you manage yourself and you have managed your life, with these complicated, chronic, long term health issues. And it's fascinating to me that the parts of your personality that I think are the most impressive, are the parts that you don't even notice as being valuable. Naomi I think I, I know somewhere, I've got a bit wrong in my head. Like, I'm not seeing it quite in a way that would be most helpful for me. I'm seeing it a little bit mixed up. Claudia Can I just say out loud, this is the first time I've ever heard you in 16 years go, I'm really sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you. It was quite a moment. Well, I hope it felt like a therapeutic challenge. Yes. Tanya You know, I mean, I think what we're working with here is a young woman whose life has really been impacted by chronic health conditions. You know, I mean, this is real, this is pain, this is, you know, disruption to life. And it's really clear to see how her sense of self is really split. And so I suppose, when I said I disagree with you, I think I was disagreeing with this perception she has of herself. And sometimes that kind of direct therapeutic challenge is quite a good way to shift the conversation. Claudia And just listening in the other room. You just I could almost feel her, swallow, go, oh. Tanya It's something that I see a lot as a clinical psychologist when I work with people with chronic health conditions, or conditions that you know, will relapse and then remit. It's really about helping people almost redefine themselves. In the face of the challenge that this condition presents to them. And, you know, a lot of people really struggle to function not only when they're unwell, but when they're well because it can just be so soul destroying to have to face that. I mean, for example with Naomi. I mean the levels of pain that she will experience when she's really, really unwell and the fatigue. I mean, it's soul draining, I mean, what she experiences. So, it's about helping people kind of, think about themselves in terms of the wholeness of their life experience, and not just when they can be the person they think they should be, which is fundamentally when they're well. You just look so shocked when I said I don't agree with you. You've had to live with these, this kind of swing in your life. Between functioning like any regular, bright young woman and then functioning like someone with a chronic illness, disease, that is flaring up. And I think you swing between self respect and self loathing. Naomi Horribly. Tanya That must be so hard. Here's a question. You said to me, okay, yeah, Tanya, I think that you've got a point. I think I'm a bit, what did you say a bit muddled in my head? A bit. Naomi Yeah. Tanya Okay. What is the muddle? I think it's something around this split that you have in your sense of self. There's the well, Naomi and then there's the unwell Naomi, that's where I think the muddle exists. Is that what you were saying? Or is it something else? Naomi Yeah, I'd agree with that. And it's odd. I don't, I don't value my friends in the same way that I kind of weigh myself up. So, say if I'm thinking ab out one of my best friends. She has a lot of health problems, And that doesn't diminish one bit of how I think about her. I think she's amazing. Tanya You just nailed it. Naomi Yeah. Tanya Who's the bully here? Who's the critic here? Naomi Yeah, it's me. Tanya You really are. It's almost like I need to help you change the lenses in their glasses. If you're looking out at the world and there are people who are struggling with health, your empathic, your understanding, you respect her, you don't judge her for them, and you don't see her as being a different person, whether she's well or ill. Naomi No. Tanya Why can't you do that for yourself? Naomi I don't. I am so competitive, I'm quite. You know. Tanya You are a bit of a perfectionist, aren't you? Naomi Oh, yeah. 100% Tanya So being unwell is then falling short. Naomi Yeah. Tanya Being unwell for you is, the car's broken down, it's on the side of the road. And we're just going to have to wait for a while, until we can get it started again. Naomi Yeah, that's exactly how it feels. Tanya Which is why I think it's hard for you to imagine having a child. Because what you said to Claude is, you can't sort of be a parent and then not be able to parent. Naomi Yeah. Tanya And when you say that I was sitting in the other room listening thinking, but there are lots of parents who sometimes have health issues and but they can continue to parent. But, there's something for you about if the car stalls, then that's it. We're off the road. Naomi Yeah. Tanya I guess my question to you is, why can't you? Why can't you still be on the road? Naomi You know, you're going at 20 miles an houe, instead of everyone's going at 60 but... Tanya Why does it matter how fast everyone else is going? What if your journey at that time is 20 miles an hour? And what if that's okay? And what if at 20 miles an hour, you can experience things differently than you would when you're going at 60 miles an hour? Naomi You might see the scenery. Tanya For example. Naomi It just doesn't feel okay for me. Tanya You just absolutely, you're really stuck aren't you. Naomi Yeah, I'm really stuck. Tanya Give me three words to describe well Naomi Naomi I'm intelligent. competent and inventive. Tanya Okay, three words to describe unwell Naomi. Naomi Thoughtful, maybe a bit more quiet, yeah, slower. Tanya That's not a huge negative is it? You're just it you are describing going from 60 miles an hour to 20 miles an hour. Yeah. Naomi I really like going fast Tanya I yeah, I see that. But maybe the challenge for you is to accept that sometimes you go slow. And that's okay. That part of you can become integrated with your sense of who you are. I think you split that bit off and you don't like her. I'm not talking about the the pain and the ills. Of course you don't like that and I, I just admire you because you've obviously lived with so much pain over so many years. But I'm talking about who you are how you see yourself in the way that you can see your unwell friend when she's unwell as the same amazing woman. You can't see yourself in that way. Naomi I think it is almost that legitimacy. But when I feel ill, I feel like I should be able to do more. And I think it's that should that really gets me. Tanya The should leads to, but I'm not which leads to therefore I failed. Naomi Yes. Like daily like I used to have little checklists, things I wanted to do. So, you know, I try and walk, I try, maybe make a meal. I try whatever it was, meditate, whatever was the current thing that was important. It was a way to keep me going, because it can get repetitive. But, you know, I never managed to do it. Yeah. Tanya So, then you've failed that day? Naomi Then you've failed that day. Tanya And how much do you think that sense of failing prolonged the being unwell phase. Because we know that there is a significant link between mind and body. We know that, you know psychological state has a profound impact on health and well being that psychological state can trigger certain conditions. You know, there's a real sort of chicken and egg debate, isn't there? Around the sort of conditions that you have, particularly the gut related conditions. You know, does the condition trigger stress, does stress trigger, you know, in terms of what the factors are around all of this? Naomi I think it is that I'll start feeling better, and then the way I think changes, and I'll fell better. Tanya So that's where chrome does define you. You're led by very much aren't you? Naomi Yeah. Tanya Of course you are in terms of the energy you have every day, if you're unwell you're unwell. Well, I mean, you know, that is what it is. But it's more than that you'll lead in terms of your perception of yourself. Immaculate Deception Ad The fertility Dr. Jan Karbaat was renowned for getting amazing results. Women who were desperate for children would visit him at his Rotterdam clinic. Many would leave pregnant. But when the clinic closed, rumours circulated about the methods the doctor used to achieve his success. My name is Jenny Kleeman and I've been investigating what happened in Karbaat's Clinic. It's the story of a doctor who is determined to create life by any means possible. The immaculate deception, a brand new podcast from something else coming on March 18. Wherever you get your podcasts. Tanya Tell me a little bit about what's the internal conversation that goes on then. Naomi Bad day, I want to do X, Y and Zed. I need to do X, Y and Zed are kind of, it's more towards the end of the day, I'll go did I actually have to spend my day like that? Was I just been lazy? Am I really tired? Or if I tried harder? Could I have written a bit more? Could I have got some work done? Tanya It's really interesting. So rather than ending the day, look what I've managed to do, even though I've been feeling so bad. Or, look how I've managed to give myself permission just to not do anything, and I'm okay with that. Because, you know, I can accept that this is how I have to be sometimes to keep myself well, in the long term rather than that. You're not yay me-ing may in yourself at all, are you? You're like, maybe you're just really lazy. Maybe you're just bit rubbish. It gets back to when I said to you, I don't agree with you. I would say your resilience shines when you're unwell. Naomi I kinda wish I could get your glasses and put them on my face. Tanya What's stopping you? Naomi I don't know. Tanya Because you can see it in your friends who have health issues. Naomi Oh yeah, big time. Tanya I think it comes from a sense of never being good enough. Clearly there are aspects of your body that function in ways that aren't functional sometimes. Naomi Yeah. Tanya It's almost like that then becomes about you. You as a person, then, are not quite good enough. So it's like that there's a benchmark you're always measuring yourself against, which isn't... I don't think you'll ever be good enough. I feel exhausted thinking about the pressure you put on yourself. Naomi Yeah. Tanya Alright, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to do a little bit of what's called cognitive behaviour therapy. Have you heard of? Naomi Yeah. Tanya CBT. Have you had CBT? Naomi Yeah, in the past sort of. Tanya And it was it helpful? Naomi Yeah, it's more to do with chronic fatigue. Tanya Okay. Naomi It kind of looked at all or nothing thinking. So it's like, okay, you might not complete this, but why don't we just look at doing this. Tanya You are the Olympic gold medalist of all or nothing thinking, aren't you? Naomi Yeah. Tanya I mean, I think we literally give you the global Olympics Naomi And that will make me feel great because I got it all Tanya But then, but then when you're in the nothing, okay... Naomi Yeah. Tanya Let's just have a look at CBT quickly, then I'll set you an exercise. Okay, so I'm just gonna write down on a piece of paper, but I'm going to say, obviously, say what I'm writing down. So, you know that cognitive behaviour therapy works on the principle of how we think, affects how we feel, affects how we behave. You are feeling well, you've just written an essay or in your middle of an essay, you're going to go and see your mate that night. What are you thinking? Naomi I've done well, today, you know, I feel on top in control. Tanya I'm in control. You've nailed it. So, when you, when you're thinking I'm in control, how does that make you feel? Claudia Really happy. Tanya You're happy, positive, full of energy. And then in terms of how you're behaving, presumably what you're out there, you having a laugh, your chatting. Naomi Yeah. Tanya You're doing your thing. Naomi Yeah. extroverted, enjoying company. Tanya So, this is a plus star. Now. We're going to the unwell moments. Okay. What are you thinking? When you've had that day when you're feeling unwell? Naomi What am I going to have to do tomorrow? Tanya What else you thinking? Naomi Is there some stuff I I could have done today? Tanya What are you thinking about yourself during these periods? Naomi Am I being a bit lazy? Am I being a bit indulgent? Tanya And how does that make you feel? Naomi Well frustrated at myself. Tanya You're frustrated, what else you feeling? Naomi Yeah, quite angry at myself. Tanya And where does that leave you feeling? Naomi Well, sad. Tanya Does sadness fill us full of positive energy? Naomi No. Tanya So you're feeling hopeless? Naomi A little bit. Probably not if it was one day, but if that had gone on for a week, yeah. Tanya Okay. And then wwll how does that affect your behaviour? Naomi I want to stay in bed more. Tanya And do you? Naomi I probably wouldn't let myself for that long. Tanya But you might sometimes? Naomi I might sometimes. Tanya And if you stay in bed, how does that impact on the thought, am I being lazy and indulgent? Naomi Yeah. It cements it Tanya It cements it. So, it just reinforces this idea that you're lazy and indulgent. Naomi Yeah. Tanya And are we now a plus star Olympic gold medalist, knocking it, smashing it out of the park, Naomi? Naomi No. Tanya So how do we grade ourselves now? Naomi That's an F. Tanya That's a fail, right? What you can see from this is, so you're either feeling happy and positive and good about yourself. Or, you're feeling miserable and sad and hopeless and furious with yourself? Naomi Yeah. Tanya So when we look at thoughts, we then think, well, what are the beliefs that sit beneath those thoughts? If we think of beliefs as lenses in glasses, depending on what we believe, will depend on how we see the world. Naomi Yeah, Tanya Your belief is, if I am in control, I'm a successful, great version of myself. Naomi Yeah. Tanya But your belief is if I'm not in control, finish that for me. Naomi Like I could be doing better. Tanya So they failed? Naomi Yeah. Tanya Would it not be helpful for us to try and challenge this very negative belief you have yourself? Naomi If I, at my core didn't believe thatl, I think I'd be a lot happier. Tanya I totally agree. Okay, so can I give you a little exercise? I want you to be the rational, empathic, thoughtful person that you are friends who would say that about themselves. And I want you to start to challenge that belief. Because the only way that belief will cease to exist is, when you challenge it enough to begin to recognise, it's not a belief that you're going to hold on to anymore. Naomi Yeah. Tanya So, I want you to go away, and I want you to brainstorm every single challenge that you can, to that negative belief, that is triggered by your ill health that then makes you lose faith in yourself. Make sense? Naomi Yes. Claudia What struck me is how hard Naomi is on herself. And I think lots of us can, not necessarily relate to what she's going through and I feel terrible for the pain that she has to deal with. But that inner voice, that's so mean, even when she has terrible days. Like you say, of debilitating pain, she'll still go, I'm going to bake today and then she doesn't bake and at the end, she's like stupid, self-indulgent, lazy me. Tanya Yes. Claudia I want her to be kinder to herself. Tanya Yes. For me this felt quite challenging forensically. I felt I was having to really try and understand. That's why I kept saying, help me understand what you mean by stuck. But, you really heard that did you Claude? That sense of just, I mean, literally like her own internal bully. Claudia Now all of us will have little voices going, you look rubbish. You're not a good parent, your faces falling off, your face is too sparkly. Whatever it is, I don't want her to be mean to herself. Because she goes through too much. Tanya We can't ever say to anybody, you know, you can't be mean to yourself, because I think part of the challenge of life is, is managing our internal critic. And sometimes our internal critic is quite useful, because sometimes we do have to call ourselves on things, because we totally can be completely annoying or ridiculous. I think where Naomi is really in a bind and lots of people with chronic health conditions are, is if your sense of self and your sense of success in life is purely linked to your function when you're well, and you have a relapsing condition. That means you're going to spend a significant proportion of your life despising yourself, for something that you have no control over. You know, that's where you can see shoots herself in the foot. And that's why I think, the bigger life decisions about being a parent, having a relationship, you know, and all those things are so challenging for her. Her belief is that she could only be good, like really good at something part time. Yes. And actually, I believe that she can be really good at whatever she chooses to do full time, even though when she's unwell, she's going to need more support. It's just how she can accept that in herself. Claudia I loved it when you said, I just need to change the prescription in your glasses. And it really made sense to her, and what I loved because it doesn't always happen after the first session. Sometimes somebody leaves and you feel like they've got a lot to sort of swallow and deal with and think about it. But, she sprung out didn't feel it felt like it that she was actually excited. Talk to me, I also love this about all or nothing thinking. Tanya Yeah. Claudia Expand on that. Tanya Well, she's either having an A-star day or she's... Her day is F. Exactly. All or nothing thinking or it's also called black and white thinking, is is it's really a characteristic of anxiety. So when we feel very anxious, we kind of shut down that kind of ability to rationalise and kind of look at the nuance in whatever experience we're having. You know, you can take out some good things even though perhaps it wasn't such a great experience, you know, the way that we cope with life. 100%. You know, with experiences like being a mother, because obviously you need to be consistent and I think it's the inconsistency in that the all or nothing that makes her worried about being a parent. Claudia Talk to me about how Naomi was open about the fact that she defines other people and herself by success. I mean, I remember that early 30s you're 31 you're like, Where am I? Am I doing all right? By keeping up? Tanya Fragility, in terms of self esteem, that a lot of people bring into therapy comes from a sense of having to define oneself by external markers of success, whether it's material success or career success, but actually, who we are is who we are. When you strip everything else away, if you take away the money and the job and the everything, how do I feel about myself? What kind of person am I and she is a woman who for the last 17 years, has continued with her academic career in her life. She still has dreams and aspirations. She's had many knockbacks is now living back at home, but she keeps going. Now that is resilience. And it's extraordinary. She absolutely doesn't see that as a marker of her value. That's exactly right. So it's about shifting, helping her shift. How she, how she judges herself how she evaluates herself. Claudia Okay, I'm going to go get her, bring her back in. Tanya You like your homework? Naomi I like my homework. Tanya Okay. Let me listen. Talk me through it. Naomi Okay. I'm not gonna read everything I wrote, because that's that's quite a lot. I kind of realised there's sort of, quite a lot I've gained through having those quiet times and those less well times. Tanya Wow. Naomi Which is weird. Tanya Had you never thought about before? Naomi Not really? Tanya Wow. Naomi Okay, so you might think, okay she's still living with her mum. But then I'm thinking, well actually, I get to spend time with someone I really love. And actually, I know full well if I hadn't have been ill, you know, I'd studied anthropology, I would have cleared off to a different country. I mean, 100%. And, yeah, because I've been unwell and moved back and seen my family. Actually, I'm, I'm really close to my family now. And to the friends that I speak to a lot like my really good friends. I'm really close to them. And a lot of people don't. Don't get the time for that. Almost. Tanya Brilliant. That's called a reframe. We've identified this belief, it's a perfectionist belief, isn't it? And we identified that for you it's particularly toxic because the, if I'm not in control moments of your life, are very linked to when you're unwell. Which you can't control. Naomi Yeah. Tanya So, you're kind of completely in a bind there. So therefore, when you think about being a mother, you think well, how can I be a mother because I only live part time and you can't be part time as a mother, you've got to be full time. Naomi Yeah. Tanya Whereas I would say to you, you live full time. And sometimes you demonstrate extraordinary resilience that many, many people couldn't in your position. If you could acknowledge and see that the being an adult tasks would suddenly feel okay. Because you know, the essence of yourself, which has got nothing to do with the A stars, you get blah, blah, blah. It's got everything to do with who you are as a woman, makes you phenomenally equipped to be a partner and to be a mother because you have resilience like I rarely meet in people with the sort of conditions that you have. Naomi Thank you. Tanya Okay. What else have you What else have you noticed? Because I think you're chipping away at this belief, aren't you? Naomi So now I'm thinking I want to be an educational psychologist. It was kind of there in the backdrop anyway. But I think part of the reason that when I do get into work I'm so passionate about that is because I know, say from from my education, how hard it was to access that. And I'm not sure if I would care about that in the same way. If I hadn't had any difficulties like that at all, Tanya Writing that I can see you've written so much. It sounds like you're being much kinder to yourself, as I've asked you to do this piece of reflection. Naomi I was thinking a lot of my best friend. She's really outgoing. She's studying now even though she's really ill. I was like, Well, what would I say to her and then once that started, it kind of started flowing a bit. I think this is the first time I've looked back and gone. Oh, yeah, you're actually doing pretty well. Tanya How does that shift now that you've begun to understand your self esteem? The issue of competency is so split by your perception of yourself, depending on whether you're well or unwell. Naomi So say I was 100% well, and I was working all the time, but I still wouldn't be there for the kid. When I'm ill, I might not be able to do so much. But I guess I'm present a lot. being there, and talking to them and listening to them. Tanya And you can do that even when you're not well. Naomi Yeah. Tanya Wow. It's quite a big shift you've made isn't it? Naomi Yeah. Tanya And why is it made you a bit emotional? Naomi Because I think I've really done a bit of a disservice to, to not well, Naomi Tanya 100%. Naomi Yeah, yeah. It's almost kind of like happy tears like I don't feel sad about it, I think it sort of opens up possibilities, doesn't it? Tanya That's my task that I leave you with. You need to have that list in your pocket all the time. Because I think this voice is gonna it's habitual. It's gonna kick in often. Naomi Sure, yeah. Tanya At that point, think of us sitting here on our creaky sofas, and pull out that list and remind yourself, and then eventually, you'll internalise all of that amazing stuff you've written down. And you won't need the list anymore, because that will be your voice. Yeah. It feels like a real privilege to have been able to do this with you. Naomi I think I've got a huge amount from it. So I mean, thank you for inviting me on and talking to me. Tanya It's been a pleasure. Claudia How have you found it? Naomi Yeah, it's quite different to how I thought it would be. Claudia In a good way? Naomi In a good way. Definitely a good way. Claudia It felt like there was a massive shift. Naomi it really does, it's funny how just seeing things in a different way can make you feel quite differently. Claudia Yes. Naomi Yeah. Claudia I just wanted to keep on racing in, but obviously, I'm not allowed to go, no, when you were like, I'm felt self-indulgent. I never want you to feel like that ever again, because there'll be lots of people listening, who either have been through periods of illness, who will just want to get inside the podcast and wrap their arms around you. So, I hope that that has changed. And I'm very happy to turn that list into a poster into a tattoo. I mean, I'm not legally allowed to do, but we could do it. Naomi We could find someone maybe who could... Claudia Just so that whatever happens, whether you have an A star day and you're going out and you're running the world or if you feel unwell, when you feel unwell, I don't want to feel bad about myself. I think Tan wanted me to ask the question, looking to the future when you say I can't, I can't do those things. And I, I couldn't be a good mum. Can you now see what you are? This all round, wholesome creature who does, unfortunately have bad days, but then brilliant days? Can you see a different future? Naomi Yeah, I think it's about almost changing my perception of what it is to be a mum. Yeah. And actually I've got a lot of the right ingredients to be a good mum. And that isn't dependent on me being well. Claudia No, you'd be absolutely excellent. Thank you so much for coming in. Naomi Thank you for having me on. Claudia That was a marked difference in that woman when she left. Tanya When you asked what is it you want? She was very clear. I think she you know, said I'm stuck. And when people are stuck, it's often something about some internal conflict that's stopping them being able to take a position on something and move forward. There are lots of clues in what people bring. You know, often we have people who come because, they want me to give them permission to do something today, it wasn't like that was? Claudia No totally different. Tanya But it was about perception. I think when we're stuck, we don't know which way to look. And I think it was just enabling her to think about herself differently. Which then enabled her to look in a different direction, which, I think opened things up in a in a more freeing way for her. Claudia Should we all make lists? Tanya I think writing is becoming a lost art. It's a beautiful process, whether it's writing a letter to someone else writing a letter to yourself, keeping a diary, keeping a journal. The process of writing means you have to sort of reflect and you have to sort of rationalise something that ordinarily would feel confusing, because it's very emotional. And I mean, she only talks through two or three with me, but it was a huge list. You saw it as well. And I think that, you know, it is helpful because sometimes when you can when you rationalise it and break it down, it's almost like you're taking a step outside yourself. And I think what she said, it was a smart thing, she said I was actually imagining I was saying it to somebody else. And then you reflect on well, if I can say it to someone else, why am I not able to say it to myself? So, I think sometimes it's a really useful exercise and could help a lot of people shift themselves out of a feeling of being stuck. Claudia You think can all learn from that? Tanya I think so. Claudia That was good. Tanya Thanks, m'love. Claudia Just a quick note that if you haven't already, please subscribe, and you'll receive free episodes as soon as they come out. Thank you to all of those listeners who have rated and commented so far. If you haven't already. Please do share to let everyone know that we're here. Also, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here, please email briefly describing your issue to parenting@somethinelse.com that's parenting@somethin (without a g) else.com Next time, we meet Danielle. Danielle People talk about baby brain when you're pregnant, and you lose words and grief it does the same to you. The carpet being ripped out from under you and tumbling. Tanya And not knowing who you are. Danielle Yeah. Things used to be so simple, that I'd do without thinking suddenly become so much harder. Claudia This podcast was made by the team at something else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Hannah Talbot, the producer Selina Ream, and the executive producer is Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Transcribed by https://otter.ai