Danielle People talk about baby brain when you're pregnant and you lose words, and grief it does the same to you. The carpet being ripped out from under you and tumbling. Tanya And not know who you are and that. Danielle Yeah. Things used to be so simple that I'd do without thinking suddenly become so much harder. Claudia Hello and welcome to How Did We Get Here. The podcast where me Claudia Winkleman, and my fantastic friend, clinical psychologist Professor Tanya Byron look at challenges people are facing with those closest to them. Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions whilst I'm listening in from another room. In the break and at the end, I asked Tan a bit about her process and explore the issues that were raised. This time we meet Danielle, who is understandably finding life very hard after her husband died four years ago from cancer. Danielle had her own business, but recently gave up work to better support her two children aged 20 and 17. She finds parenting in these circumstances, overwhelming. Tanya What you recognise, it's your anxiety that is causing this loss of perspective with your children. Danielle Yes. What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one time, unscripted session, with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording passing on links and contacts, some of which you'll find in the notes of this episode. Thank you for listening. And now let's go and meet Danielle. Hello. Claudia How are you? Danielle I'm very well, thank you. Claudia Thank you so much for coming in. Danielle Oh, it's a pleasure. Claudia Tell us why you're here. Danielle So, my husband died four and a half years ago. The journey of learning to parent as a single parent, I'm finding now, it's probably more of a struggle then at the beginning. And it's needing some perspective, so when you've not got that other person, giving you their input, taking things too seriously, that other person can balance it out, can't they? Claudia Of course. Danielle It makes you step back or, or maybe they're just the character that deals with particular situations better than you do. Claudia Absolutely. Danielle Suddenly that's gone. And it might not have been something you consciously noticed. But you certainly notice it when it's gone. Certainly I feel like I've lost my way a bit. I've got a teenager and, well two teenagers. There are a lot of decisions to be made. Oh, yes. Claudia Aren't there? Danielle Yes. Claudia I mean, the little ones, about what subjects are you going to do and then the big ones, I don't know what time you should be allowed out... Danielle Yeah Claudia But to do it all by yourself. Danielle Yeah. Yeah. I suppose especially as they're getting older, and you want them to have their freedom, I don't want to feel I'm sort of clinging on to them. But at the same time, I know they've got this big grief that people around them haven't got, and don't necessarily appreciate. And so I'm almost watching for are they about to trip over? Are they going to they're going to have a meltdown? How can I stop that happening? And perhaps sometimes I'm pre-empting that. Claudia Also, once you start questioning yourself on anything, then you go, well, maybe nothing's right. How have they dealt with the loss? Danielle In different ways. So my daughter, who's the oldest, and is now at uni, she just buried herself in her studies, and has done brilliantly and is still doing brilliantly. But she's only just now ready to get some counselling. Whereas my son, who's struggled with mental health for quite a while, and he's only really coming out of that. Now he's coming out, I'm watchful for things that are going to drag him back in. Claudia Yeah. Danielle And sometimes I'm overreacting. Do you have good friends? Yeah, I've got two lovely brothers, my third brother who was equally lovely, he died of cancer as well. So we've got that loss in the family, but I'm really close to his wife. I've got some really good friends at home as well, who holiday with us and mop us up. Claudia Yeah. Danielle But of course, for all that they spend time with the kids and with me, they've not got that deep understanding. And so there's a limit to how far they can help if that makes... Claudia Of course, it totally makes sense. Thank you so much for coming in. Danielle Hi. Tanya Hi you. I'm Tanya. What is your biggest fear? When I was listening to talking to Claude? I heard anxiety. Danielle Yeah. Tanya And hyper vigilance. You're watching and waiting. So what are you afraid of? Danielle They're lovely kids, and they're incredibly resilient, and they're both very bright. I worry they won't achieve what they could do in life that this could knock them completely off course, if they're not able to deal with their situation. Tanya I think what you're saying is you're aware that you're really anxious. Danielle Yes. Tanya And it's interesting. You said, My kids are resilient. Do you mean you recognise that they do have the capacity to bend but not break? Danielle Yes. Even my son with his mental health issues, I can see that there's a really strong core in both of them. Tanya Do you mind telling me what your son's mental health issues are? Danielle He's got OCD, Tanya What is his OCD? Is it sort of a cleanliness thing? Danielle It's primarily ruminating over issues. Tanya So he's an anxious over-thinker? Right, yeah. Danielle He missed a lot of school last year during his GCSE year, because he was so stressed by how he was feeling. But equally things that were happening as well. His friendships fell apart a little bit, the anxiety over exams, that was probably our lowest point last year. The OCD was identified before he lost dad, but it had been building up with suicidal thoughts, two years to three years ago. So we've had a period of... Tanya How terrifying for you to hear your child say, I don't want to be alive anymore? Danielle Yeah. Tanya And that, to me feels like a trauma that you're still living with. Danielle It is and I know I've got a lot of strength in me, but it's almost as if now he's coming out of that. And we finally found in the right help that he needed. He's having psychotherapy weekly, and that seems to be working well. He's got lots of other things falling into place now. He's got involved with a gym, so he's much more positive about himself. So he is a lovely, lovely lad. And he's doing incredibly well, but it's almost as if any little wobble now that he has. I'm sucked straight back into what was happening over the last couple of years. Tanya And that must have been horrific for you. Danielle Yeah, it was. And I think I did my usual. Rather than spend a lot of time thinking about it, it was just if I keep myself busy with trying to fix it... Tanya You went into crisis management mode. I get that and I think that was the right thing to do. And it's been a painful journey. But, with the support that you've got in place for him, he's now he's coming out the other side which is incredible. But, perhaps what you're also saying is, because at the time you didn't really connect with the sort of qualitative feeling aspects of what he was telling you, you were like right problem, how do we solve it? It now is hitting you after the fact and it and you're getting triggered just by him saying I had a rubbish day mom. That's really insightful of you. Danielle That urge to solve the problem. I worry creates other problems because, it rather than just listening to the kids, I'm listening to what they're saying and thinking that's a problem I need to solve as opposed to just let them tell me. Tanya And work their own solutions out. Danielle Yeah. You grapple with that part of you that thinks, how can I make them feel better? Because I don't want them to feel bad, because if they feel bad, it might trigger their grief, and then they won't be able to live the life that they should be able to. Tanya Yes, it's your internal struggle. Danielle Yes. Tanya I understand. Danielle I can feel it impacting on how I react. The interactions I have with my daughter. She's now at uni in year two doing really well. When she shares things with me, she'll tend to share the negatives with me. So, I'm feeling really tired, I'm feeling wobbly, I don't know why. There's an obvious why. But I'll be thinking, oh, is this is this where she starts to go off track? Because I'm rushing into problem-solving mode, assuming there's a problem. Am I then almost creating a problem? Tanya I think you know the answer to that. Danielle Well, I guess, because she still comes back and talks to me. I think I'm doing the right thing. Tanya Definitely. You're doing the right thing. Danielle This is where I was talking earlier about that, that loss of perspective. Tanya That you haven't got a partner to bounce yourself with them, for them to go, darling. Danielle Yeah. Tanya You can chill out. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Well, I want to be that perspective for you, but I think today, I don't want to just reassure you. I think my goal is to try and help you shift something inside yourself. Danielle Yeah. Tanya So that when you leave, you carry a different perspective. Danielle Yeah. Tanya And I think that's what you're asking for. With your son, when he comes home he says, I've had a bad day, you panic. You think oh my gosh we're going to go back to the dark days, oh my gosh. With your daughter, you're saying, do I kind of exaggerate in an anxious way, what could just be a normal, I feel shit mom kind of comment. And I think your second part of that which I thought was really insightful is when you said, If I start to panic, and I'm panicky mother coming back, am I going to nudge her towards something that actually, she might not really have been going towards? Danielle Yeah. Tanya So really what you recognise, it's your anxiety that is causing this loss of perspective with your children. Danielle Yes. Yeah. Tanya Because your children sound pretty solid to me. Both of them are actually in a good place at the moment. Danielle Yes. Tanya But you're still terrified. Danielle Yes. Because I suppose we've had enough examples of how life is just lobbing stuff at you, and I know everyone goes through that. But, I sometimes wonder if I'm trying to imagine the unknown just to protect us from it, and that doesn't feel healthy. Tanya So, it's almost like you're saying, because we live in a city where we know bombs will drop, we're kind of living in a brace position all the time. But you're also saying, but I know that's not how it should be. Danielle Yes. Tanya Okay. Danielle Yeah. Tanya So that's what you want to shift. Danielle Yes. Tanya Okay. If you stopped futuring, and thinking ahead, what do you fear might happen, if you take a different perspective? Danielle That we'll be caught by surprise. Tanya Someone else will die or something will happen. Danielle And of course, I mean, as you know, particularly, there are no guarantees. Tanya The question I'm asking is, do you think if something awful happened again, do you feel like that would completely break your children? Because you use the word resilient very early on in your discussion with me. Danielle I suppose I worry that, that there will come that point where It's all just too much, the straw that breaks the camel's back if you like, Tanya Are you worrying about them breaking, or you? Danielle One of us will go. And I if one of us goes, I suppose that, in some respects relates to when my son was talking about not wanting to live anymore. Because it's the three of us, and we are the three of us, we are all close, I'm lucky that I've got close relationships with both of them. I count that as one of our blessings. Which means I suppose if if one of those was taken away, then that really would feel like a huge challenge. Tanya So you're thinking that somebody else might die, you or them? Danielle If something catastrophic... Tanya Yeah. Danielle Might happen, which just isn't necessarily rational. But I suppose that's that's ultimately where I've got to now. Claudia Talk to me about something you mentioned to her, which is futuring. Tanya It is very common actually, when we have a trauma, a shock, a bereavement, you know that our sense of safety in our life, our sense of it's not going to happen to me is absolutely broken. And then we have to sort of recalibrate our kind of the way we look at the probability of bad things happening and risk happening. And so, when we think about anxiety, we think about the effects that anxiety has on the way we think, and we feel and therefore how we perceive the world and how we behave. Anxiety affects thinking in a number of ways. So, anxiety makes us magnify and catastrophise and that's because we're in an emotional and mental state where we are prepared for fight or flight. So if we think there's a threat in front of us, we have to make it as big as we possibly can in order to keep it in our sights, as well as catastrophisation, magnification. Anxiety causes what's called black and white thinking. Claudia Right. Tanya Yeah, I'll either be in control all our fall apart, that's anxiety. Claudia No middle ground. Tanya No middle ground, no grey area. Anxiety also can lead to this sense of anticipatory anxiety. So what could happen and that's futuring. Claudia Okay. Thanks, Tan. Let's go back to the session. Tanya You've lost two people, that you were extraordinarily close to in a very short space of time. Your brother and then was it a couple of years later, you're your husband? Danielle Yes. Tanya How has this impacted on you would you say? Danielle It felt like I lost two quite well, obviously, my husband's massively important, but my brother was also someone that I did turn to for advice. And I loved his company. Then the longer term impact has been particularly of losing my husband, that I then took the decision to sell the business probably about 18 months ago. I no longer enjoyed it, I didn't really have it in me. So, I managed to sell it... Tanya That's another loss for you. Danielle It is actually, although it's also a huge relief, because it was causing a lot of stress. And I knew I needed to clear that stress out to help my son in particular through what he was going through. So life has changed hugely and I suppose amongst all of that, I've lost sense of myself as well. Tanya You're talking to me with very well controlled tears in your eyes and I am curious what you're worried about. If you were to contact those feelings a little bit more, do you feel it would break you? Danielle Yeah, and I can't afford to break. Tanya So, as you encourage your children to be open with you. To cry with you, because I suspect as a mother, you're saying, I can listen, I can comfort you, if you want my help, I can help you find a solution. So you'll encourage your children to do that. Why do you deny that to yourself? Danielle The answer is I've not necessarily found the right support where I feel I can properly unburden. Tanya Is that because your friends aren't enough? Because I know you've had some bereavement counselling, haven't you? Danielle Yeah. Tanya Is that because the counsellor didn't feel like a good fit? Or is that because you won't allow yourself to do it? Danielle With friends, it's because I don't want to be the miserable person in the room. Tanya And you reckon you friends would think that? Danielle The lovely ones wouldn't, I know they wouldn't. Tanya So that's a good, that's a good way to avoid doing something, just to find an explanation for it. Which actually in truth, it wouldn't happen. Danielle Yeah. Tanya And you know, you wouldn't do it to a friend. You'd be there for them. Danielle Yeah. Tanya So there's a huge level of avoidance. Danielle Yeah. Tanya In you around connecting with the pain. Danielle Yeah. Tanya You're default mode is solution focus. Danielle Yeah. Tanya The problem is at some point there aren't any other solutions to be found, apart from living with the pain. And then that is where you get a bit stuck. Danielle Yeah. This sort of not crying, that's not to say I don't cry, I've cried buckets of points. But, sometimes that feels a waste of time, because that doesn't solve it either in my head. Tanya But what happens to the, to the uninsured tears and the anxiety and the pain if it's not allowable... Danielle Bottled up, isn't it? Tanya Do either of your children bottle things up? Danielle I suspect my daughter does. Tanya And do you think that's okay? Do you... Danielle No. Tanya So you want something different? Danielle Yes. Tanya For her, than you do yourself? Danielle Yeah. Tanya So I can see that you're in a you're in turmoil a lot. Danielle Yeah, and I spend a lot of time thinking about it. I feel exhausted a lot, I know I'm not in a good place. Tanya I don't think you're not in a good place, you've kept yourself going. You know, you've not been kind of collapsed into your grief and given up on life. You've powered through for your children, I mean, in the most extraordinary way. What I'm thinking now, is how much what you worry about when it comes to the children, is actually really more about what you're experiencing. And you need some help to be able to, to release a bit. Because often, when we have these catastrophic worries about our children, it's because they're triggering something in us. Danielle Yeah. Tanya So when your son comes home and says, I had a shit day, or you're daughter WhatsApp's you or whatever, and says, Oh, God mum, I don't feel great. I'm so... Both of those are just kind of normal stuff, that young people of their age would be telling their mother, if they have a great relationship with their mother, which they clearly do because they want to communicate with you. It triggers you. Have you thought about the fact that what they trigger in you, is really more about what you need rather than the risk to them? Danielle I probably haven't connected it quite that way. But I've certainly thought what happens if I'm not around? Tanya Oh, I think that terrifies you. Danielle Yeah, it does. Tanya Not for you so much, I think but for them. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Have you ever had times when you haven't wanted to be around? Danielle Yes. Tanya But you've never told anyone that? Danielle No. And it was very fleeting. Tanya Of course it was. And thinking I don't want to be around isn't the same as actively and intentionally making that happen? Danielle I know. And in fact, it was more the thought that they'd be better off if I wasn't around that I was just complicating things. Tanya That's heartbreaking to hear you say. So, why, why were you, why was that? Danielle Well, that was last year when things really weren't going well for my son in particular. So being stressed about work, and we were having some pretty awful arguments, and I didn't feel I was helping. I felt that I was making the situation worse for him. And it was coming out of a sense of frustration with the situation because it was... and fear, and maybe he would be better without me. But then equally imagine what would happen if you weren't around you know, how would they feel? And that was just, I suppose me being selfish, self-indulgent in a way. Tanya I don't think it was selfish or self indulgent. You're brutal with yourself when it comes to emotion. Danielle Okay, yeah, Tanya I think it was a moment where you just probably fleetingly contacted the pain. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Which was probably quite useful in a way. Danielle Yeah, it was sort of a lightbulb moment of okay, this can't go on. Tanya Maybe there is something in contacting the pain, having really acknowledging how hard things are how bad one feels. Crying, and then go okay, now I can see things differently. Danielle Yeah. Tanya And that's what I sense with you. I sense that you're just kind of you've got this kind of emotional logjam. Because I am watching you brutally stop yourself crying with me. Not that I'm saying, for goodness sake, please cry. I'm wondering if your children were here now. I'd be really curious to know how they thought you were doing or what they thought about how you were feeling. Danielle My daughter often asked how I am. And do you know that irritates me? Tanya You don't have to don't want to contact it. Danielle Yeah, Tanya Because it's not productive. Remember? Danielle Yeah. Tanya So she's recognising something and she's trying to contact something in you. Danielle Yeah. Tanya But you're like step away, nothing to see her. Danielle But I don't want to burden her. I don't want to suck her into a situation that stops her doing what she needs to do for herself. Tanya And why would that happen? Danielle This was part of the sort of motivation for wanting to speak to you, is trying to get my head round balancing being a parent with sharing things. If I'm the anchor at the moment in all of this for them, if I'm the point of stability that makes them feel comfortable and safe, and yet I'm then turning around and saying actually, I'm, I feel awful. I'm not doing my job. They need that sense of stability. And I'm the only one that can do that for them now, is where I'm at. Tanya I do understand that, I'm trying to put myself in your daughter's shoes. She's asking you on a fairly regular basis, how are you mom? Yeah, not in a hey, mom, how are you? But in a how are you? So, you know what she's asking? Danielle Yeah. Tanya And that question indicates that she, she has a sense that there is a lot going on for you emotionally. Otherwise you wouldn't ask. By not being honest with her and enabling her to be part of your solution, which is I think what she's asking, which might just be a hug. I'm so glad you could have a cry with me, mum. Danielle Yeah. Tanya I'm thinking that is probably better than experiencing her mum push that question away. Because I suspect that increases her anxiety. Danielle Yeah, I've not thought about it that way. Immaculate Deception Ad The fertility doctor Jan Karbaat was renowned for getting amazing results. Women who were desperate for children would visit him at his Rotterdam clinic. Many would leave pregnant. But when the clinic closed, rumours circulated about the methods the doctor used to achieve his success. My name is Jenny Kleeman and I've been investigating what happened in Karbaat's Clinic. It's the story of a doctor who was determined to create life by any means possible. The Immaculate Deception, a brand new podcast from Somethin' Else, coming on March 18. Wherever you get your podcasts Tanya But I think character logically you are quite black and white about it. You are solution solution solution, get on with it, or emotion and fall apart. That's how you see it. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Whereas, there's something in the middle. And I think the irony of all of this is that, one of the things you worry about with your daughter, she is quite like you, you worry that she buttons down and bottling things up. So from a role model perspective, if you really want to prepare her for life, you want to show her how, as an adult woman, you can express how you feel. In a way that enables you and her to have an honest conversation, to reassure her that her instinct was right. But also in that expression, you can show her that it won't break her or you. Because emotion is part of life, grief is part of loss. Anxiety is part of being a widowed woman who is bringing up her two young adult children on her own. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Your role modelling has something unbelievably powerful. Danielle But if I really let it out, I don't know where it ends. Tanya So, I think that's where you need some support. Because I do believe if you let it out, it would end. Because I think you are a practical woman and I think you have a huge ability to self-manage and self-regulate. I just think your personality is such that when you feel sad, it makes you scared. And when you feel scared, it makes you feel out of control. Yeah, and being out of control is not a place you want to be. But sadly, that's what life has done to you multiple times. Danielle Yeah. Tanya It really does make you cry. Danielle Yeah. I don't like being out of control but yeah. You can't control everything in life. Tanya That's correct. And so the anxiety and the thinking, thinking, thinking is a way that you're trying to control things, you're trying to imagine what the future could look like. Danielle Yeah. Tanya But I think logically, rationally, you kind of know that if we're going to talk about what's unproductive, that's the unproductive emotion. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Not crying. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Because we can't think about a future. We can't think away that life isn't gonna do what life does. Danielle Yeah. Tanya I feel sad that you're going to spend the rest of your life in a perpetual state of anxiety. Danielle I'd rather not. Tanya I agree. But what needs to happen for the anxiety to slowly settle? Danielle I've got to unbottle it somewhere. I think about what I go through in day-to-day. So, I get up in the morning, I put the makeup on, I put the clothes on, I put the veneer on and I know it's a mess underneath. But if I portray something that feels in control, then then I can get through the day. But, sometimes I wish people could see what it's really like. Do you know, I think I'd feel a failure if I lost control? Tanya But what's, what's to say you're going to lose control? That's the bit that I'm wanting to help you with, because I almost feel like you're saying I will become a hysterical, out of control, screaming wreck of a person. I think that's what your pain feels like. Danielle Yeah. Tanya But I'm not necessarily wanting you to think that's what the expression of your pain will then therefore, be like. Danielle Okay. Tanya But I think you need someone to help you through that. Think about it in another way. People who have a phobia, they have a fear of water, or spiders, or whatever. The fear they hold for these, whatever things, it's irrationally, catastrophically huge based on what it really is. And when you treat a phobia, there are two ways you can treat it. One is called flooding, which is I'm treating you for acrophobia, you have a fear of have water so I'm going to take you to the local pool, I'm going to push you in the deep end. That's flooding, right? Danielle Brutal. Tanya Kind of not the way I like to work. And the other one is called systematic desensitisation. Very, very slowly, you dip your toe in. And you get in, stand up to your knees in the shallow end, you breathe, you think I can do this, nothing bad is gonna happen. You might get out, you might stay, you might say, you know what, I think I'm ready to go down to my shoulders. Actually, you know, I think I can take stroke and very slowly with someone supporting you, you make your way to the deep end and you swim. Danielle Okay. Tanya Now let's take that and put that into what you're I think phobic of. Your phobic of contacting, processing and being supported for the pain you feel, following the loss of your brother and your husband. You hold on to this pain, because you're terrified that if you contact it, it will break you and I'm just describing to you the pain and you're sitting here in tears. Danielle Yeah. Tanya And I promise you, you'll be fine. I promise you. Your tears are an acknowledgment that I've described your pain. Danielle Yeah. Tanya But what I'm describing is the phobic avoidance you have of contacting that pain. Because you've dabbed your eyes. You've taken a deep breath, you've settled yourself in the chair. And you just did this. I watched you. nd she's back in Oh, no, no, no the tears have come back. It's really, I can see the struggle for you and I'm not trying to prod you and I'm not expecting you to cry with me. Please, please know that by the way, but I want to tell you what I'm noticing. So, if you are phobic of the huge amount of pain that you have never truly processed, because you've been managing and supporting your children to get them through the most challenging times that they've had in their young lives. It's interesting, to me, that you have got more anxious as your children are now doing better. Danielle Yeah. Tanya And I think that's because now they're doing better, it's now your turn. And that freaks you out. So, the risk is you're projecting it out onto your children. Danielle Yeah. That had crossed my mind. Tanya Yeah. I think that's what's happening. And your daughter sees it. Danielle Yeah. Tanya And every time she checks in you shoo her away. Danielle Yes. Tanya Because don't bring that near me. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Phobic, phobic, phobic Avoid, avoid, avoid. Danielle Yeah. Tanya So to help you with it. You need someone to get in the shallow end with you and you need to feel safe with that person. And then you need to slowly but surely, piece by piece, allow yourself to grieve. And I think that the grief risks becoming what would be called a prolonged and complicated grief reaction. And what I mean by that is, grief that isn't supported and addressed in the way it needs to be, it doesn't have to be therapeutically it can be just within our support structures. But, if, if grief isn't grieved, if you see what I mean, then it can then begin to become something more complicated. Danielle Okay. Tanya And I think with you, it has started to do that. And it's, what the complication for you is anxiety. Danielle Yeah. Tanya I think the next part for chat should be what happens next. And how can it be done in a way that feels safe? Really, it would be good for you to sort of summarise what, what is our formulation, that's the word that psychologists use for what's the story. Danielle Okay. Tanya To facilitate this process, if you want, you could write to your daughter. Not a letter you're actually going to give her unless you want to. But, you could start the process by answering her question. How are you mum? You could tell her. Danielle Yeah. Tanya And write it down and then we could look at that together. Because in a sense, that's you then summarising really, where you and I have got to. Danielle Okay. Tanya You look utterly relieved. Your shoulders have just dropped. Danielle Yeah. Because, it feels like there's a solution. Claudia I found it unbelievably moving. She said when her daughter calls from university, it's often with, oh, I'm exhausted, I've had a bad day or I'm worried about such and such. And I know lots of people, I mean, I hate to say it, and I don't know if she's listening. But I will be talking to a friend and I'll be going, yeah, I'm fine, everything's fine. And my mum will phone and she goes, how are you, and I'll go, oh, the washing machines not working and almost give her problems as a gift. Or because I'm awful. Can you explain that? Tanya I know your mom. She's an amazing fixer. But she's fixer. I mean, your mom is incredible, what she's achieved in her life and who she is, but she is a fixer. So yeah, it's a dynamic that exists. Give your mom something to fix. You're giving her what she needs in order to mother you in the way that you know she's comfortable with. But that's the risk I think here. Danielle, really, she did really identify that early on when she said, you know. When she talks about her daughter and she's saying, but I am worried if I'm seeing things you know that aren't there, could I create a self fulfilling prophecy? In other words, could I nudge her towards something that wasn't actually ever going to happen? Claudia And maybe her daughter has worked out that just going, yeah, everything's fine, bye mom, speak to you like in four days, isn't what her mum wants? Tanya Well it wouldn't be enough for her mum, because then she might think mom will worry. So, if I give mom something pretty mundane to be concerned about, then maybe that will that will be helpful for her a bit like you do with your mum. And I'm not saying these aren'y conscious processes, right? It's not like we think, Oh.. Claudia No, of course. Tanya But, but... Claudia But it really rang in my, I was like, ah. Tanya Yeah, absolutely. Um, but I think, you know, that's how these dynamics can kind of then create and entrench themselves. Claudia I suppose the other thing that people will be thinking is, when is it fine to discombobulate your children? Is it okay for them to see that she's sad? What should we show our kids? Tanya It is upsetting for children to experience their parents upset. And obviously, you know, you've got to think about the age of the child and the younger the child, the more careful you have to be. Because they don't have the cognitive capacity, following that experience to be able to hear you and talk through. At the end of the day, we're there to support their development, they're not there to support our emotional state, right? So that, that's important. But you know how children are young adults, grief and loss and sadness and pain are part of life. If we want to prepare our children for life, we also want to role model to them, that it is okay to be sad, to feel upset, to grieve. But actually, that experience doesn't cause us to stop functioning and can enable us in the long term to feel more like ourself again. Claudia The other thing what's fascinating is, you said there isn't a black or white. It isn't, for her It feels like either, she completely unravels and run through the streets naked, screaming, my brother and my husband died, please somebody help me, or whether she kept on talking about surface which I found fascinating. Put the makeup on, I've got the love bag and the children are fine, and I will hold it together. And you were saying there's a middle ground. Tanya You know, it is possible to process the grief. It is possible to do that, without falling apart. But the longer we avoid doing that, because we are so terrified we will fall apart, the greater we actually risk falling apart. Because the grief process then becomes complicated. It becomes prolonged and entrenched. And that's when mental health difficulties can then start to set in. Claudia I'm going to go and get her. Tanya Alright, love. Did you write the letter? Danielle I did? Tanya Did it, was it a helpful thing to do? Danielle It was actually there's been times when she's asked that question on WhatsAp, and I've started to write an answer, because she's hit me at a moment when I'm weak. And I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to tell her and then I delete it. Because I think I can't send that. To actually be able to write it down, is almost a relief. Should I read it in full? Tanya Yes. If you don't mind? Danielle No, no, no. I'm finally sitting down to tell you how I am. You keep asking and I keep batting away the question because I just don't want to burden you, or make you feel more miserable. I'm not great. I feel sad more often now than I have done in a while. I keep thinking that if I just keep busy, it will be okay. But as soon as I stop, the wobbling starts. I really miss dad, I miss his growl. Damn, where's the? Why haven't you? I miss his laugh, his rudeness and his holidays. I worry about how you and your brother are coping and how you will make a good life beyond all this. I miss you when you aren't here. And I miss, we had a nickname for my son. He was known as jolly and he hasn't been like that for a long time. I find it hard to really imagine life once you've both left home, it feels really daunting. I racked my brains trying to think of things that will make us all feel better. But nothing feels right apart from the holidays. I wish I knew how to bottle up that holiday feeling. It's a very lost feeling I have right now. I don't recognise myself, I don't know who I am or who I'm going to become. If I could just stop being so worried. Excuse me. I'm tired of worrying of stewing things over until I've even bored myself. I'll try and be more honest with you both. I don't want to add to your worries, but I can see that hiding how I feel isn't a particularly good idea either. That's where I got to. Tanya What was it like reading that out? You read it in a really relaxed way, but you have cried... Danielle Yeah. It's relief to to say it, to be able to summarise it. Tanya Have you fallen apart? Danielle No, I'm still here. The world hasn't ended. Tanya You seem quite relaxed as well. You seem sad, very, very sad. But you don't look like you're white knuckling. You don't look tense. You're just kind of sitting with how you feel. But now you're coping. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Does that surprise you? Danielle A little bit. But I'm now worried about how I'll feel when I go home. Tanya Let's talk about that. Danielle Journeys home from London used to be about having been here for meetings. The first person I messaged on the train home would be my husband, say how the meeting had gone. And while he was being treated, it would be to see how he was, to check he was okay, to let him know I'd be back soon. I miss that. I'll then get home. The dog will want to go for a walk. Hopefully she's not eating the sofa while I've been here, and that'd be nice to get out. I'll then be at home and I'll wait from my son to come home and see what mood he's in. Tanya Does it matter what mood he's in? Danielle Yes. Still it does, because we had so many occasions where he'd come home and he fall apart. Tanya But how long is it since he's done that? Danielle Gosh, it's more than six months. So... Tanya I'd say you can just be less vigilant. Danielle Yeah. Tanya But just going back to the journey home, who can you message? Danielle I'd say my closest friend at home. Tanya Do they know you're here today? Danielle Yes. Tanya Okay. And did they encourage that? Danielle Yes. Tanya Right. They will be wanting to know how it went. Danielle Yeah. Tanya So where's the risk in letting her know about this and maybe seeing when you could meet her? Danielle There's no risk in that. Tanya You need someone to talk this through with. Danielle Why I'm hesitating is because, I think it's hard to find the right person. And the reason I say that is the experience we went through with my son, it took three years to find someone who really got him. I've always wondered, is it the right person? Tanya How's it been for the last six months? Danielle Oh so much better. So I know it is the right place. Tanya It's relentless. Danielle Yes. Tanya This anxiety will even undermine your confidence in something that looks like it's working. Danielle Yeah. Tanya It's exhausting for you. Danielle And that sense of loss of confidence, And I had that through work as well. People talk about baby brain when you're pregnant and you lose words and grief, it does the same to you. The carpet being ripped out from under you and tumbling. Tanya And not know who you are and that. Danielle Yeah. Things used to be so simple that I do without thinking suddenly become so much harder. Tanya It's really common. I suppose for me. I just want to know that there is somebody you will nominate now to be the person you talk this through with, to be the person that checks in with you. And I don't know if you're ready to really share this with the children yet, because I think you have to process it yourself first and be able to say it in a way that you feel you can be honest with them. But you can articulate it in a way that isn't going to make them feel discombobulated and scared. Danielle Yeah. Tanya But you definitely need someone and this best friend sounds like she's seen this. She knows this. Danielle Yeah. Tanya I think you should journal, just write whatever. So you dip in and out. Remember, we talked about dipping your toe in the waters Danielle Yeah. Tanya Think about someone you can see to do this next bit of work. Danielle Yeah. Tanya It's not going to be an absolute breaking down. Danielle Okay, because that's literally what it feels like. Tanya So, you need to put some structure around it. You need to distract yourself and be busy maybe with your friends. You do two dog walks a week and... Danielle Yeah. Tanya She checks in with you. Maybe you journal for 20 minutes every day. And it's a conversation you have with your husband. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Just to tell him what's been going on. I think you probably want to be doing some yoga, some mindfulness, listen to headspace, the app. Just stuff, just to also help you manage the anxiety and just kind of calm your brain down. You could create a nice solution focused way of tackling this. You've done so much already today. I think you've acknowledged it, you know what it is now and I think already that you will see a change. Danielle It certainly feels different now. Tanya How? Danielle Definitely an element of relief. It's not just a nebulous thing, that there's, there's actually an identifiable thing, that then leads to solutions. Tanya Part of the solution might be just learning how to sit with the pain of your grief occasionally, in a supported way, and sometimes on your own, you know. You'll feel able to just go for a dog walk and have a cry about your husband, who you miss terribly and then feel okay again. There is always a way through. You've just got to know that it's not going to break you, and allow yourself to be looked after. I mean, you have done a brilliant job for your children. It's now your turn and they need you to do this. Danielle Yeah. Tanya You've done really well, now do it for yourself. Danielle Okay. Tanya Thank you. Danielle Thank you. Tanya How do you feel? Danielle Relieved, but tired. Tanya What I also want to say to you is, friends like helping. People like taking that on. You're giving them a present. If you leave here and you get on the train, and you would normally call your husband, and you go into one of those really weird loos with the automated door. I really hope it stays close. I mean, good luck. And you phone your friend and you're, and you are having a cry and go for four and a half years I have been the most, I've coped and I've just have, I'm going to have a wobble. And do you want to come around for dinner tonight? People step up. Danielle Yeah. Yeah, they do. Tanya They enjoy stepping up. I would lean on her. I'd really lean on her and she's not going to let you down. Danielle Yeah. Tanya Because she loves you. Yeah. Has this been a turning point? Danielle I think it has actually. Yeah. Yeah. Tanya That letter was extraordinary. Danielle It was, it was easy, it's so easy to write. Tanya Because it's probably just been. Danielle Yeah, sitting there waiting. Tanya Thank you for coming in. Danielle Thank you. Claudia I didn't want to let Danielle go. I don't know whether you noticed? Danielle I know. I know. Yeah. Claudia Even if you're not dealing with grief, I think so many things that came up. What to show your children how, much of your ups and downs do you show? And I thought you could only be phobic of spiders or incidentally my friend is phobic of flour. It's just too chaotic for him. Tanya What flour as in baking? Claudia Yeah. Tanya Wow. Claudia No, I know. The idea that she could be phobic of the pain that she's holding inside. Tanya The experience of grief is so powerful. And I think for those people who avoid becoming emotional, because of a fear of that... Claudia Tsunami. Tanya And yeah, a tsunami and changing who they are. Then, the grief gets neglected and then it can mutate into something, you know, more serious, depression, anxiety, those sorts of things. Claudia I'm really pleased that she told her daughter she was doing this. And that her daughter's listening. And we haven't revealed her daughter's name. But I would just like to say, from both of us, we think your mom is amazing. And you. And I'm pleased they have each other and her son. Tanya I'm really glad you done that Claude. Actually, that's that's a clever thing, because I'd like to say to her daughter and her son, your mom will be fine and you're resilient like she is, and you won't be worried by that because you know, she'll be okay. And she will be okay. Claudia She will. Tanya You know how I say to people, when I work with them, you've got tears and I can see tears in your eyes. Claudia Yeah, I feel emotional. Tanya Claudia. I can see tears in your eyes. Claudia You see, Tan? Tanya Yes, Claude. Claudia That's our last one. Tanya What forever? Claudia Not forever, should we do some more? Tanya I really want to do yeah. Claudia Do you like doing this? Tanya Yeah. Claudia I think we should go nigh on a lie low somewhere first. Tanya A lie low somewhere. Claudia I love a lie low. Maybe my house, my kitchen? Tanya Okay, well, that's where this all started Claude. Claudia All right, let's go back to the kitchen and then let's come back. Tanya Okay. Claudia Okay, come on. I have crumpets. I do. Tanya Do you? Claudia Yeah. And cheese. Tanya I prefer muffins because, you can let the butter melt... Claudia This is the last episode of season one, but do subscribe and we'll let you know when more episodes are on their way. And remember, please share these episodes so that people know we're here. Thank you to everyone for your kind comments. They are so appreciated. And thank you for your support. And of course, a massive thank you to our wonderful contributors. Also, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email briefly describing your issue to: parenting@somethinelse.com. That's parenting@somethin (without a G) else.com. This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' Else. The sound engineer is Gulliver Tickell and the mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Hannah Talbot, the producer Selina ream. And the executive producer is Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening. Transcribed by https://otter.ai