Claudia 0:11 Please note there is some adult themes and strong language within this podcast that may not be suitable for everyone. Hello and a very warm welcome to How Did We Get Here? This is the podcast where me, Claudia Winkleman, and my brilliant friend, the wonderful Professor Tanya Byron, look at challenges faced by real life parents or their family members in special one to one sessions. It's something we've wanted to explore together for years. Each time Tanya talks to the person facing difficulties, I'm behind a curtain, not an actual curtain, you understand, I'm in another room, ready to ask Tan questions, and to hopefully understand a bit of her process as a clinical psychologist too. This time wemeet Donia. She has two daughters age four and seven and a long-time partner, named Thomas. Donia is a self-made business woman and author. In 2017, Donia was diagnosed with cancer and whilst receiving treatment, her daughters started sleeping in her bed. Donia 1:12 I just overcompensated because I thought, oh my God anything happens to me, my babies are going to be without a mom. So I just thought, let me just do the best thing I can. Claudia 1:21 Now all clear from the cancer, Donia wants help to get the girls sleeping in their own beds. But she learns that setting boundaries for her children has been difficult because she's held back by her families experiences. Donia 1:34 I can't handle people suffering, I'd rather take the pain myself. Claudia 1:44 So let's go and meet her. Hi Donia! Lovely to meet you, thank you for coming, have a seat. Why are you here? Tanya 2:01 I'm here because I really want some help with my kids, getting them out of my bed. Claudia 2:06 How old are your kids? Donia 2:08 They are four and seven. Claudia 2:11 And how long have they been in your bed? Donia 2:13 My seven year olds been in my bed for over two years now. And my four year olds been in my bed since newborn. Claudia 2:20 Goodness me. Donia 2:21 I know. Claudia 2:21 Talk me through the routine if you can, I mean are you all just open about it? They don't start in their beds and then creep in or does everyone sort of brush their teeth and get snuggled up in mommy's bed? Tanya 2:32 Brush their teeth... The eldest does get into her own bed, but that lasts five minutes and she comes up the little one is quite strong minded and will fight and fight and refuse to go into a bed full stop. But she's been like that from day dot. Claudia 2:49 Does she think that your bed is her bed then? Tanya 2:52 Yeah. Daddy for the last year, solely he's had to move into his own bedroom. Claudia 2:58 And how does he feel about that? Donia 3:00 Well, I think obviously he's frustrated. Claudia 3:02 Yeah. Donia 3:03 But he doesn't wake up in the night. So if I put them in their own beds, they will scream and scream and scream, and I can't get any sleep. And obviously, I'm working as well. So I'm really busy and it's just, it was just the easiest solution all round. Claudia 3:16 Of course, I totally get it sometimes, you know, you have to make life simpler for yourself. Did something happen that led to this? Tanya 3:24 Yeah. My eldest daughter, we had no issues with her sleeping in her own bed until the day I got diagnosed with cancer, which was two years ago. And she started wetting her bed, which she never did before. And having really bad nightmares, and just wanted to stay in my bed. She didn't know what was going on. She was scared mommy lost all her hair. So I felt guilty and I just thought, you know, whatever my kids need, I'll be there for them. And obviously I got better and I still can't get out of the bed. Claudia 4:00 But they must have been very scared. How much did you tell them? Donia 4:04 So with a child who wasn't even two and one who was five, I was like, Oh my god, it was really hard. I didn't know how to say because I was kind of grieving myself. Claudia 4:13 Of course. Donia 4:14 When I went through my treatment, I then wrote a diary and then published the book, and then helped my kids that way and illustrated and put them in the book. And so then I was getting quite exhausted. I had to find a solution where I could financially work. So I was still working throughout chemo as well. So we just all then slept together and then I worked at night to try and catch up with stuff. Claudia 4:37 Where would you work? In the bed? Donia 4:39 In our bed with the kids Claudia 4:39 ...with the laptop and they would be fast sleep, but they felt safe because... Donia 4:42 they felt safe because they were with me, I could get on with my work rather than battling. Claudia 4:47 What kind of a dad is your partner? Is he very hands on? Donia 4:50 Yeah, when he's there, but he kind of works seven days on seven. So for like three months, he's completely gone. Claudia 4:57 Let me ask you, what do your family and friends think of the fact that they are in your bed and that you're not in bed with Thomas, your partner. Donia 5:04 I don't really tell too many people because I, I know I'll get judged for it. Claudia 5:09 So there are lots of people who do co-sleep who share. But you've come in saying like now like you need to sleep in your own rooms. Donia 5:14 Now I'm at a level now actually, I'm better. So I need now just that little bit of help because they won't listen to anyone. Claudia 5:22 Okay, well, thank you. It's honestly such a privilege to meet you. I think you're brilliant. And I'm going to get Tanya Byron. Donia 5:28 I hope she can help. Claudia 5:29 If anyone can. If anyone can. So lovely to meet you. And I'll see you at the end. Donia 5:46 Hey! Hello! Tanya 5:50 How are you? Donia 5:50 Good Thank you. Tanya 5:51 It's nice to meet you. Donia 5:52 Yes you too! Tanya 5:54 What do you want to leave with? What is it that you're asking me to think about? And you're asking me to help you nail for yourself? Donia 6:03 I really want to nail consistency with my kids, because that's one thing I kind of put my hands up to when I'm tired or can't really cope with anything. I'm just like, right fine. Tanya 6:13 Consistency in terms of discipline you mean? Donia 6:16 And sticking to things like bedtime routine Tanya 6:19 Developmentally, they're seven and four. Donia 6:21 ...to stay in their own bed Tanya 6:23 well, it would be useful for them really and for you. And I think this is bigger than just my kids should be sleeping in their own beds. This is something about your life, your lifestyle and the impact on your relationship. Donia 6:37 Yeah. Tanya 6:38 Is it threatening the relationship? It is threatening it? Donia 6:41 Yeah Tanya 6:41 Where do you think you're in here with all of this? Donia 6:44 I feel very emotionally detached. I think both of us are and it's been going on obviously for quite a while. He's now in his own bedroom. And the children if he tries to come up, the children - no daddy go into your own bedroom. This is our bedroom, me and mommy's bedroom. Tanya 7:00 So they're very powerful in the dynamic. I mean, if we were to draw a picture of the family, there'd be you at the top with the two girls either side of you, and he would be sort of quite low down in the hierarchy of ...of the position in the family? Donia 7:11 Yeah. Absolutely. Tanya 7:15 And how does that impact on him? How does that make him feel? Donia 7:18 He obviously gets frustrated because he tries and then, I get exhausted because he doesn't hear them in the night. I don't know if it's a mother thing. Tanya 7:27 But often, you know, a significant health issue has resulted in what you described. So I want to reassure you, this isn't something that I've never heard before. Donia 7:35 Okay, Tanya 7:36 ...but it can cause really some quite severe resentment in the couple. Do you row? Does it cause rows?Does it cause... Donia 7:42 Yeah, I get very resentful towards him. And even when I'm stressed with the kids, and he's at work, I'm just messaging. Tanya 7:48 There are so many layers and actually what we need to do is start to peel back some of the layers when it becomes multi layered. Donia 7:55 Yeah Tanya 7:55 That's when the confusion Donia 7:56 that's right Tanya 7:57 ...sets in and that actually everybody then just get stuck and it feels like you're stuck Donia 8:01 Very stuck. Tanya 8:02 And the problem is you and Thomas can't function as a couple thinking about how do we address the sleep issue? Because the relationship has been so fractured. Donia 8:11 That's right Tanya 8:12 ...by the fact that he's not in the bed. Donia 8:15 Yeah Tanya 8:15 ...but he's in your bed. Donia 8:17 Yeah Tanya 8:17 ...the girls are. Donia 8:18 Yeah. Tanya 8:19 Let me ask you something about your girls. Tell me why do you think they are so powerful? Because it's interesting to me that they say "No, daddy, you can't be here." It's something about the fact that what your daughter's say, Donia 8:33 Yeah Tanya 8:34 ...goes. Tell me a little bit about that. Donia 8:36 I think I felt guilty. Tanya 8:38 So it's guilt. Donia 8:40 And when I got diagnosed with cancer, I just felt really guilty. I was away from them a lot. So I kind of substituted that there with me whatever, you know, time they want to spend with me even if it isn't a night. My eldest never wet the bed but she started wetting the bed. The nightmares were really bad and they were scared Tanya 8:57 ...and their distress, distressed you Donia 8:59 I just overcompensated because I thought, oh my God if anything happens to me, my babies are going to be without a mom. So I just thought, let me just do the best thing I can... Tanya 9:09 You said if anything happens to me so that sounds to me like you felt there were times when you felt you were looking down the barrel of a gun, that you were thinking, am I gonna die? or even I am going to die. Donia 9:20 Yeah, I mean I got sepsis, and I was in intensive care. I had a lot of operations Tanya 9:27 So that sepsis obviously can lead to multi organ failure. So that is Donia 9:30 right... Claudia 9:31 Critical. Donia 9:33 Yeah, I did prepare for my death. I basically at one point, I did think I was going to go and then after all the chemotherapy, there was still cancer in the lymph nodes. So I just felt I had a double mastectomy. You know, obviously they removed all the lymph nodes in the end so it was fine. You know, I'm all clear now, which is great. But you still have that niggle, can it come back? Because I'm a genetic bracker carrier. Tanya 9:59 I was gonna I ask you so explain what you understand by bracker, just so that I'm clear. Donia 10:04 Bracker is a gene, which I inherited from my mom and my grandmother and my great mother, my grandmother and my great mother have all passed pre-menopausal. Tanya 10:16 So it's a bullet that's ricocheting through... Donia 10:18 Yeah. Tanya 10:18 The female line. Donia 10:19 Yeah. Tanya 10:20 And you have daughters Donia 10:21 Two daughters. Exactly. So this was another guilt, because it's like they've got 50% chance of now carrying the gene. Tanya 10:28 When are you going to screen them? Donia 10:30 Can't screen until they're 18. Tanya 10:31 Right. So that's, you're holding on to that it's really important people understand that you're holding this now, until they're 18. The issue with the bracker gene and the fact your girls are 11 and 14 years away from being able to be screened for it, it doesn't really ever go away. Donia 10:48 No. Claudia 10:55 I think we should just say a couple of things just about the bracker gene for anybody who's listening who... A bracker gene is passed down sometimes and sometimes not but you're tested for it and it means that your chances of having breast or ovarian cancer are through the roof so that's why people will often have... Angelina Jolie tested positive for the bracker gene sorry to bring up a celebrity but Donia 11:17 no but it's a useful... Claudia 11:19 ...you have to... often you have your ovaries and fallopian tubes removed and your breast and if you've had it, there's a 50% chance that your children will have it and she does have two girls. So that must be playing on her mind as well. Tanya 11:33 Right? It feels like a sort of Damocles hanging over her head doesn't it and 18 is when they will be screenable. So there's a long way to go. And there's always in her back of her mind, you know, maybe not both, but probably one, and that is really hard. That's really hard. So you know, this is where the trauma of the cancer never goes away. That's a lot to hold on to for... what, the youngest is four for the next 14 years. Claudia 12:02 Yeah. Okay. Thank you back to you again. If that doesn't sound too weird. Tanya 12:15 Have you had any genetic counselling at all? You know, that assumption.. Donia 12:18 I went to have some CBT therapy actually. Tanya 12:21 Yeah. Donia 12:21 It helped a bit. Tanya 12:24 Cognitive behaviour therapy is the evidence based therapy for anxiety and depression Donia 12:30 Yeah Tanya 12:30 ...and that's what a lot of mental health practitioners that's one of the first line talking therapies. Donia 12:35 Yeah. Tanya 12:36 And actually, I can see possibly has helped, although I think that's just how you're made. I think you're a practical, pragmatic, rational, sensible woman. I think you just get on with things. I think you face problems, you find solutions. You're a self made business woman, you've got yourself through, you know, the cancer, the bit of you I think that's been completely neglected is something more about this underlying feeling, and I think, the trauma of considering your own death. Donia 13:06 Yeah. Tanya 13:07 You know, the obvious hypothesis would be when you look at children who are in a bed and a partner who is sort of banished somewhere else is separation anxiety. Donia 13:17 Yes. Yeah. Tanya 13:19 It's not just, I would say their separation anxiety... Sorry? Donia 13:23 ...it's mine, as well. Tanya 13:25 Tell me about that. Donia 13:26 I experienced just quite a few traumas in my life. So I lost my sister very young, she was 26 and quite drastically Tanya 13:35 ...how? Donia 13:36 ...dramatically she committed suicide. So Tanya 13:39 I'm sorry to hear that. Donia 13:40 That was 15 years ago. She got postnatal depression. And it just went downhill from there unfortunately. I was really frightened of my children having to experience death at a very young age because I know how it was really tough for me for the first two years. Tanya 13:55 Was it unexpected when you got the news or was she I mean, can you tell me a little bit about it? If that's okay Donia 14:02 Yeah that's fine. Yeah, she had a little... she had two children. One was very, very young six weeks old at the time. Tanya 14:13 That's really tragic. Donia 14:14 Yeah. And I found out because her partner at the time phoned me and said Donia your sisters were in the petrol station and she's she's, I've gone to pay for the petrol and she's done a run up in the car and I was like, what do you mean? He goes I've been trying to phone her phone, and we can't get through. So I thought, oh my god, but I kind of knew inside something wasn't right. And then next, I found out from the radio, a young girl have been taken into... sorry. Tanya 14:49 It's okay. It's all right. Let me get you a tissue darling. Donia 14:56 She'd uh.. She jumped off a multi story car park. And so it was weird and they said a young girl had been taken into hospital. So I'd called up the the a&e, which I thought she would be in. I was working up in London at the time. And I said, can you just tell me this? He said we can't disclose any names. I said, can you just I'm just going to describe it to you please, can you just tell me? It was really weird, it was like an instinct. But you know, there was only a year between us, we were mega close, and they said, they confirmed that she had dark hair. And I knew that was her. I just ran through the hospital and I could just hear my family had possibly arrived at the time and I could hear the scream. So I was just like, on autopilot and I just ran and ran and ran. And there she was. Yeah, she died. She was... yeah, she died. Tanya 15:56 I'm so sorry. Donia 15:57 It was.. In my life I've kind of overcompensated. I can't handle people suffering. So it's like, I'd rather take the pain myself. Tanya 16:09 I see that Yeah. Donia 16:10 And then I just, you never get over something like that, but it got easier. And obviously, when I got my diagnosis, the first thing I said to my mom, who was in the room, because obviously it really affected my parents, obviously, you know, she was the firstborn child. And when I got my cancer diagnosis, they were like, how do you feel that the doctor said, you know, shook my hand, you know, you've got cancer, and I said, okay, and I just burst into tears, it's like, my mom can't go through anymore. It wasn't like anything else. My first reaction was like, please don't put this on my family. Because I knew the pain. It is now 15 years later, you feel guilt, you weren't able to do enough. And then putting myself in the position of being diagnosed with cancer. I was thinking oh my god, and I'm now going to create suffering for all these people again. I guess that's where I got to with my overcompensating with the kids and I spoil them, you know, I do, and you don't want them to feel any kind of distress. No, I don't want them to feel insecure because obviously, you know, it's easy to kind of go off the rails when trauma and stuff happens, or I've wanted my kids to feel so safe and so confident and so secure. Even like writing the book, I got the illustrators, you know, to draw my babies in the book, so they'd feel amazing, you know, just I wanted to give them everything, but obviously every mother does, but it was just something a little bit different from, obviously, where I was coming from. I think that's where I've kind of gone wrong. I guess. Tanya 17:46 You've not gone wrong at all. This is a story that explains so much. You focus on managing other people's pain. Donia 17:56 Yeah Tanya 17:57 I suppose my curiosity at the moment is who looks after you? Because what I am aware of is the person who can look after you is sleeping in the downstairs bedroom. Donia 18:08 Yeah. Tanya 18:08 Who looks after you? Donia 18:11 Yeah, myself. Tanya 18:13 Right, which means there is no one there who can allow you to do this that you're doing with me. Donia 18:23 No. Tanya 18:25 I think it's something about you really struggle with other people's distress, particularly if you feel responsible. Donia 18:33 Yes, very much so. Tanya 18:35 The fact that the only real issue you've got at the moment is your kids are in your bed. I think you're quite a remarkable woman. Donia 18:42 Thank you. Tanya 18:44 But you're exhausted. Donia 18:45 Yeah. Tanya 18:45 Because I think you're carrying a lot. But I don't mean just in terms of responsibility my love, because I think your default mode is to do if I do if I keep busy Donia 18:56 Yeah, that's right Tanya 18:57 ...then I keep going. Donia 18:58 That's right. Tanya 18:59 But I think if you sit still like you are with me and reflect. Donia 19:03 I know, I haven't actually sat down and reflected like this. So it has just come back. Tanya 19:07 But how much do you think that the children's attachment to you is sort of anxious attachment? The anxious over attachment, you experience? How much do you think that might be? Because they're also picking up something in you that they feel they need to look after. It's interesting. Sometimes children don't just respond because of their own need. But they are actually like little emotional barometers. Donia 19:32 My eldest is very sensitive. She's really good. Like, really well behaved. The youngest is I found her really difficult. And she used to get really angry with me. When I'd come back from the hospital. She just pushed me into the room and stay in there. And I was like, Oh, my goodness. Where's this coming from? My children have never ever been pushed in a room. I've never even put my children on timeout. Tanya 19:58 Well she was punishing you for leaving her Donia 20:00 That's exactly what it is. So I stayed in the room like a mug, and I say, am I allowed to come out? Tanya 20:06 Yeah, yes. And it's interesting because that story gives us some inkling of when the power dynamic shifted. Donia 20:11 Yeah. Tanya 20:12 And that the children in a sense have been handed the power to decide how they manage their emotional state. Being in your bed. Donia 20:22 Yeah Tanya 20:22 ...telling dad to go away. A little bit earlier, you use the word friend. So I just wanted to talk about that. Because if we are only our children's friend, it's difficult for us to set the boundaries and have the consistency that you've asked me to help you with at the beginning of our chat. Because as a friend, we're more ambivalent about being clear sometimes, because we don't want to upset the person who is our friend, whereas children sometimes need clarity which may upset them. Such as, darling, I know you want mommy to go in the room, but mommy's not going in the room. And then you might have a little girl having a tantrum but then you might have a little girl after a tantrum you could have a cuddle with so you could actually engage with that part of her that was angry and terrified that mommy was in hospital and had lost her hair. But you would put a boundary there to not allow her to powerfully manage it in her own way, which actually wasn't going to be very helpful for her. Now, this isn't a criticism of you. But the difficulty is that you're trying to support them without them becoming distressed. Because their distress is going to feel unbearable for you. It's pretty impossible to parent our children without really upsetting them sometimes, because we're actually not their friend. We become their friends. But actually, as a parent our job sometimes is to say no. And the issue for your girls is, how can you help them develop resilience? This is exhausting. Isn't it? This level of thinking. Okay, so I think we should take a bit of a break. And I'm going to leave you with with two things to think about. Okay. The first thing I want to ask you to think about is you really understanding and accepting that you need support. Not because you have mental health issues, not because that you're not coping because you are, you need support to allow yourself to be vulnerable, to see that as a strength and process what you've been through. Okay. And then the second thing is in terms of the girls, we both agree that for them to be resilient, young women, as you know better than most people, life can be randomly, unbelievably shit. They now know to be able to deal with difficult feelings, but not allow those difficult feelings to put them into behavioural patterns that don't really help them learn how to manage emotion. So it's not that we're either of us are saying co-sleeping is wrong, but we're saying in your situation, both in terms of rescuing your relationship with your partner, but also in terms of your girls going to sleep happily not worrying that their mother is not going to be there in the morning. We probably do need to think about how you can move them back into their own beds. You have a thought about how you would want to do that. And then after we've had our break, we'll address both those issues. And then hopefully, you'll leave here with some with some really good information, some answers. Donia 23:50 Yeah. Claudia 23:59 Okay Donia is now on a break and we are doing our halftime chat. I would describe Donia as a superwoman. Would you? I've never met anybody who's taken... she takes so much on, she's so busy. What is that indicative of? Tanya 24:16 What does it mean when you get into that mode in your life? Claude, why do you think you do it? Claudia 24:22 Maybe to stop the noise? Tanya 24:23 That's correct. So it's something about stopping the noise. And there is a lot of noise isn't there? She's had so much to deal with, and she is terrified for her girls. Claudia 24:36 Terrified for her girls and what really struck me is then she told the story about her sister. And finding out on the radio, her sister had took her own life, leaving two children. So she saw what happened to those two kids. And what is also extraordinary to me is the guilt that she feels, I just didn't want, her first reaction when she was told was I'm worried about my mom. And then I just can't do this to my familyand she was just told about her cancer. Tanya 25:05 Yeah, yeah. She has a huge overdeveloped sense of responsibility to others. And, you know, ask any parent, any good parent, you know, what is the sense of responsibility you feel to your children? I mean, it's, you know, you can't describe it. There are no words. It's, it's beyond words. It's huge. But I think when it gets mixed up with the kind of narrative that we hear from Donia, who is a remarkable woman, and her sister taking her own life, you know, then you start to understand that how everything then gets kind of squashed down into a huge, almost undefinable issue. That then gets projected outwards, and so she's anxious for her daughters and her daughters are anxious for her. Claudia 25:57 I remember you said to me, it was a long time but literally 15 years ago, and I've used it all the time, I mean, much to my children's chagrin. I'm not to say that word so I use an accent. Tanya 26:09 It helps. Claudia 26:12 You used to say to me, do you know what child's safest word is to make a child feel truly safe and I would be like, no, is it more ice cream? Is it come here Mommy or just cuddle you and cuddle you and cuddle you and cuddle you. And actually the thing that makes them feel the safest is the word no. And I don't know about you your kids are slightly older than mine but when they go mom can I have this, can I have that, can I have those new trainers and can I also have like ice cream for breakfast, or I mean they don't ask for that, but when you go, no, no, you can't go out tonight. Or no, you can't have this for breakfast. They take it, they go okay. Are those two girls crying out for a no? Tanya 26:50 Well not that they would Claudia 26:51 not deny Tanya 26:52 ...no hundred percent but yes, I think in that situation for me, the word no is containment. It's actually putting the brakes on something. It isn't going to always be met with "Oh, thanks so much. Oh, I feel so much better, you've said no" and that I think is the issue for a lot of parents and with Donia, of course, because her daughters are going to push back hard and they're going to be upset and she's got her sensitive, oldest daughter, and then she's got her stubborn youngest daughter, who successfully used to put her into timeout, when she came back from having her round of chemotherapy. The girls are going to push back because it's going to make them feel unsettled and it's going to take away a power and control that has been handed to them. And that's where the problem is because I think Donia would like some kind of solution that does not involve any distress on the part of her children. But that's not how life works and actually, children becoming upset parents remaining consistent, children, eventually calming down, everything settling, things changing, atmosphere lifting, that's an incredible lesson for life and it's a huge part of building emotional psychological resilience in children. Claudia 28:08 One of the best things I think my mom ever said to me is she grounded me when I was 15. And I remember turning around and I shouted at her, I don't like you. And she replied back you're not supposed to. Tanya 28:20 Yeah, we're not their friends. Claudia 28:21 And it was an enormous relief to me, I was like oh thank goodness because I've been thinking you were a bit of a loser. But that's okay. And that's okay. And we will all survive it. I am not allowed to go to another party, I get it. You want me to go upstairs and read a book or whatever it is. Are you worried when Donia leaves today that those kids will never leave her bed? How is she going to do this? Feels insurmountable. Tanya 28:42 You know, she's a woman who when she's on a mission, and she knows what she needs to do, she's smart, she's a self made, very successful business woman. When she's got a set of instructions, she'll follow them. So I will talk through with her what feels most manageable for her and we'll work out a plan that's not the difficult bit. Claudia 28:59 What is the difficult bit? Tanya 29:01 ...her emotional resilience. And that's there where you see the separation anxiety with children in a bed in these sorts of scenarios works both ways. It's a two way street, right? And her resilience, I think is dependent on her partner becoming more involved, her partner becoming her support, but I think also her having much deserved and I think quite late in the day, but nevertheless, necessary space with someone like me a professional who can listen, I don't think she needs a lot of sessions, but she needs a space to allow herself to be distressed and recognise that it's a helpful process and that vulnerability is a strength. But of course, the more we deny ourselves the opportunity to address these profound emotional traumas that you know, some of us will have in our lives. If we don't address that, we weaken ourselves. Claudia 30:04 Alright, let's go back to the second half of the session where you give your practical advice. Tanya 30:14 The most important thing for you is you didn't break. Look at you. You're fine. Donia 30:18 Yeah. Tanya 30:20 If your girls get upset because you have to say no to them. They won't break. Donia 30:26 No, that's right. Tanya 30:27 They might hate you at times. But you know, we're not their friend, we're their parent. Right? And also the whole of the point of raising children, as my mother very helpfully said to me, probably about 10 minutes after my daughter was born, my mother said to me, Well, darling, of course, now you've got to prepare her to leave you. And I was like, thanks for that mom, I've only just got her, you know, give me give me a few minutes before I contemplate that moment. It is about preparing them not to be with us. But the point is, when our kids leave us, the rest of the world isn't going to say of course you can, you can be in control of this and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, when I work with parents with children who are given too much power and control and don't hear the word No, my concern is for how they're going to cope in the world. You know, if we can't have the scenarios, try and play it out with them as parents, we're kind of setting them up to fail. Donia 31:24 So that for me is like, actually, yeah, yeah. And that that really sunk in to me. Tanya 31:28 And that's going to help you then when you are doing the sleep training, and you're doing the saying no, in those moments, we can all feel weak and just go okay, okay, okay. Okay, fine whatever you want. You know, particularly if we're sleep deprived as you had been and extremely unwell as you were. So you know, we get that but then we we're just caving into the short-term pressure. And we're not considering the long-term need and I think now you've got that the long game. You can sustain yourself through the difficulties a bit like when you were building your business, if you knew where... you could visualise where you were going. You could deal with the stress of building the business. So let's now focus on the practicalities of the girls. Okay. What do you recognise needs to change in order for that end goal to be achieved with your girls, I think I need a routine and stick to the routine in place, read them a story in their own bedrooms and just make sure that they go to sleep in their own rooms. And if they come up to my room, you know, I know it's going to be tough at the beginning. However, I need to then take them back down to their own room. And if it needs me sitting within five minutes until they've gone back to sleep, then that's what we're going to have to do. What do you notice has just happened here who just designed your sleep programme for your children? Donia 32:50 Yeah, myself. Tanya 32:52 Absolutely. I said nothing it's perfect, absolutely correct. I'll go through the detail with you in a bit more, so we can practice and think through to some of the eventualities and what to do if, because it's not going to be smooth sailing. We both know that. Yeah. Let's just be really clear. You came here saying, I don't know what to do, tell me what to do. You've just revealed that you do know exactly what to do. You're a smart woman. And from a psychological behavioural perspective, it's absolutely correct the way you've described it. So you coming here wasn't for me to tell you what to do was it it was for me to help you give yourself permission to do it and I like that. Donia 33:29 Yeah. Very true. Tanya 33:31 Why did I need to give you permission do you think? What was getting in the way of you being able to do what you correctly want to do? Donia 33:38 My guilt. But now, I feel just from the first session, my guilt just being lifted. And I'm not being an unkind mom, by making them go into their own beds. But I'm giving them boundaries. You know, they're probably a bit confused What's going on? Tanya 33:58 They are, yeah. They need to see you having those conversations with their father. And he needs to be involved in the sleep programme. And he needs to take the girls out on his own. And if the girls say, No, we want mommy there, no, mommy's doing this and they need to build that bond with their dad, independent of you. You don't need to be around them all the time, darling to make sure they're okay. Yeah, that is your fear. And I get it. But I need to release you from that. So yeah, let's just agree that he needs to have little routines with both of them, maybe with the eldest, he and she go swimming every Saturday and then with the youngest, he on a Sunday has a different activity. You know, you build those memories, so when the girls are older they say, I used to love Dad I used to love our time when we did that. You actually need that you've got to give yourself some permission. You're exhausted, recovering from all sorts of things and running a huge business. Let's go back to the specifics of the programme then. Are they now sharing a remote? Donia 34:59 Yes. Tanya 35:00 They're sharing a room. And they're both in a single bed? Donia 35:02 Yes. Tanya 35:02 Okay. So you could to begin with have the beds next to each other. So they co-sleep. So they've got each other. So one of the things, it's very difficult for children when they stop co-sleeping with a parent, if that's what the family decides to do is that obviously, it's that sense of falling asleep next to someone. Yeah, we want to gradually change something. You don't want to just kind of rip the plaster, the band-aid off sort of thing. I wouldn't implement it until you've discussed it with your partner. I think then, you want to have a discussion with the girls and explain what's gonna happen. And then I think what's very helpful for children is some kind of incentive. So for example, we could have a rule that, you know, people fall asleep in their own bed, and in the morning, they'll be something under your pillow or something. As you nail that and probably to begin with you'll need to sit quite close to them both as they're falling asleep, but then you would gradually sit further and further away and then you'd sit in the door and then you'd sit outside the room and, you know, eventually that would they'd fall asleep, then up the ante and say right now you get the reward for falling asleep in your bed and staying asleep all night. When you're looking at sleep with kids, you have to kind of split it into two pieces. The falling asleep on your own in your bed is one skill. Right? The sleeping through the night is another skill, they're kind of separate, right? Yeah. Okay. So with you next to them for all these years, if they wake in the night or stir because you know, we go through a sleep cycle. So we'll have moments where we will turn over, we might open our eyes a bit and then fall back to sleep. They've got the smell of you the warmth of you and the feel of you next to them. So obviously that's not going to be there you are their sleep cue. So you take away a sleep cue, you have to recognise that in the night that they will wake. And what you've experienced previously is they will scream. We've now got to think what will you do if that happens? My advice to you would be if you have to keep returning them, be careful that you don't reassure them too much. Because what they'll then learn is okay, if we wake up, mommy will come down, we accept she's not gonna let us go in her bed anymore, but she will stick around and have a chat and a cuddle, so that's kind of quite nice. So you've got to be careful that you don't create a problem. You take them in quietly, if they're crying, it is what it is. But what you could do initially, is that's when you could join them in their bed, if you're so exhausted, that's when you could join them in their own bed, so that we move them in your bed to you in their bed. And then eventually, when we're trying to tackle the second part, which is the waking in the night, you then when you go in, you don't get into bed with them. You just wrap yourself in a sleeping bag and lie on the floor. And then so you do the gradual withdrawal bit that you've been doing at bedtime, then at that point, but don't try and do it all at the same time because you'll literally, you'll self combust. And just more basically, now we've talked about sleep, in terms of discipline, particularly with the little one who sounds like she's a force to be reckoned with. Which is great. That's what we want but obviously not that it becomes self-destructive. So what is the issue? The ferocity of her reaction or what's what's your normal... Donia 38:34 because sometimes she's like, made me really anxious. And I was like, Oh my god, she's gonna kick off she's gonna kick off. Once she kicks off, she'll she won't give in and she won't stop and that will go on for hours. Tanya 38:44 We're sort of doing a big circle now, aren't we? Because it's about your distress tolerance. That's another term I want you to think about. When your daughters get distressed, when your little one throws an Oscar winning, tantrum, it triggers you hugely. Back to the hospital corridor and the screams. You have to be able to stay in your rational brain don't flip into the limbic emotional brain stay in your rational brain and think, is her reaction telling me that there's something seriously wrong? Do I need to reverse my decision because it's going to cause her some kind of harm or pain. And if the answer is no, she's just massively pissed off. Then you need to do some breathing. You need to think the long-game. You need to recognise that her learning to self-soothe is gonna set her up really well for life. And then you need to be able to walk away and go make yourself a cup of tea. And again, you and your partner have to agree this, that if she tantrums for a while, you go in and you say when you stop, you know we can have a cuddle. Everybody has to remain calm. Donia 39:56 Thomas, he's very, very calm. So they'll listen to him. Obviously, if I shout, you know, doesn't make any difference whatsoever. Tanya 40:05 But also it's an odd one, isn't it? Really? Because if we shout to our shouting child because we want them to stop shouting, I mean, if you and Thomas, do you do date night? Donia 40:16 No. Tanya 40:18 Have you got a babysitter, you can leave the girls with? Donia 40:20 Yeah. Tanya 40:22 So I think it's time you two put some attention back on your relationship. And yeah, once a week, hire the babysitter. Even if you just go and see a good film and have a laugh and walk back holding hands. I think this is the stuff that's going to powerfully shift the dynamic in your relationship. Donia 40:43 Yeah. Tanya 40:44 But it's very easy to lose sight of each other, isn't it when we have little children and we're both busy working, but, you know, relationships needs to be nurtured. What do you need to do for yourself? Donia 40:57 Not be so hard on myself. Just be a bit kinder to myself and not actually just eradicate this guilt. You know, and... Tanya 41:06 Could you do it alone? Or do you think it would be worth speaking to somebody? Donia 41:10 I mean, I'm so open now before I was like, No, I don't want to speak for anyone. But yeah, I mean, I could. I probably do need some work on that, if I'm honest with you. Tanya 41:18 I would recommend you go talk to your GP who can refer you but also if you wanted to find someone, yourself, The British Association for counselling and psychotherapy has a fantastic register of therapists. You need to make sure that the therapist is HCPC registered healthcare professions Council because a lot of people call themselves a therapist, but they don't have any particular training that's recognised. Donia 41:43 Okay. Tanya 41:43 Look at the British Psychological Society website to find someone with my training. That's bps.org.uk. And I think that's some space that would be good for you because I think you also need to learn to allow someone to look after you. You are a resilient woman. But you're also a woman who I think highlighted what I see often clinically is that mostly parents don't come to me because they don't know what to do, they come to me, because they need me to give them permission to do it. So, thank you very much. My pleasure. So I'm gonna let lovely Claude come in here and debrief you a bit. Donia 42:23 Okay. Claudia 42:32 Okay, I'm gonna head back into the session room just to chat to Donia and see how she got on. How you feeling? Donia 42:38 Yeah, I'm feeling much better now. Claudia 42:40 My kids are slightly older than yours, but are you prepared for how angry they're going to be? Tanya 42:45 Yeah, they'll be pretty pissed off. Claudia 42:49 I think Tanya's so right, not like a band-aid, not home. And this is happening, but I just sit there and I just know these little girls they don't know what's happening, they're at school today, they're going to come home and everything's all changed. What did you find the most helpful? Donia 43:03 It just made me realise that actually, I don't need to carry this guilt around with me anymore. And, you know, I can implement Claudia 43:13 You didn't do anything. You know. Donia 43:14 That's right. I know! Claudia 43:17 I know there was, I mean, we all feel guilty about stuff, but I'm like, no, no after everything you've been through, I am not allowing you to feel guilty. I'm interested. Does he know you're here today? Donia 43:28 He knows I'm a podcast, but he doesn't know what it's about. Claudia 43:31 And that alone is quite fascinating to me. I mean, I bore my husband with, I've already told him that I've had half a bag of maltesers, I'll be honest, it's not a brilliant relationship, he yawned quite a lot. It's fascinating to me that you come here and talk about everything that's so important. What are you going to say to him... when you leave here? And you're in a cab or on the bus or whatever... and you phone him? Will you tell him? Donia 43:56 You know, I think I'm going to for the first time. After that, I've realised it's more me I need to just make a little bit more of an effort and not block him out completely, which I do. Claudia 44:08 Will you both come back maybe? Donia 44:10 Maybe that's a good idea! Claudia 44:11 Or I'll come around, I'll do your washing. I'm phenomenal. Donia 44:16 Sorted. Claudia 44:26 So I thought she came in and you were going to have to draw out a timetable of sleep-routine and explain all of that. But then in the end, she knew it. What so what what's that about? Tanya 44:39 As a clinician, the experience that I bring to this is, I see my role as enabling people to access what they know. So I often find in the work I do, it's not that I'm an expert, it's more that I'm enabling people to give themselves permission to do things that they're struggling to do. So the question, really, for me is never, what do I need to tell them that they need to do? The question for me as a clinician is, why are these people unable to do it? Claudia 45:13 Yeah. Tanya 45:14 And that's when we got into Donia's story. Claudia 45:16 I think you've said to me before, we know what to do, what we need to find out is why we're not doing it. Tanya 45:22 Exactly. Exactly. You know, I'm not a life coach. I'm not, I'm not here to sort of tell people how to live their lives. I don't think anybody should really, quite frankly. I'm here to facilitate a process of understanding. There may be some clinical issues that need to be addressed and obviously that's an area of training that I have, so there's a clinical expertise there. But the fundamental reality is, if you if I come at this as an expert, then I do nothing more than create a dependency because the person will always have to come back then for the next bit of advice. So my job isn't to tell people how to raise their kids, my job is to help people understand why as perfectly competent parents, they can't operationalize. They can't do it. Claudia 46:09 Are you worried about her daughter's rage? Tanya 46:12 It's very common that once boundaries are put in, the rage is never what people expect. It's almost as if children breathe a huge sigh of relief. Claudia 46:22 Isn't that interesting. Tanya 46:23 It really is, you know, that's, I suppose, where we understand the containing nature of setting boundaries. That it actually reduces anxiety and the escalation of emotion rather than increase it. So the reaction might be crossed, but that will quickly dissipate. Claudia 46:38 I like being told what to do. I know I'm 47, I'm not four, trying to sleep in my mom's bed, although I would and PS she'd have me. You know, it is it is it's soothing being told. Tanya 46:53 What would be your plan B Claude? Let's hear it. Claudia 46:55 I want her to work with him is what I really want. I mean it'll be fine because I'll be downstairs in the kitchen, she can just come talk to me. Tanya 47:01 Cooking a risotto and lighting a scented candle. Claudia 47:02 Lighting the scented candles. Michael Buble would be playing live, Tanya 47:07 Will you get him round? Claudia 47:08 We can call Michael, of course, it's on speed dial. It's a beautiful day. Yes, it is Tanya. Yes it is. And just to say, if you haven't already, please hit the subscribe button, and you'll receive free episodes as soon as we publish them. And please rate, comment and share. It's a good way of spreading the podcast, if you will. Next time we meet Joanna who wants to tell the story of her marriage with her partner who has transitioned Joanna 47:39 It's a journey isn't it? You take it one step at a time. And it was horrendous to begin with, people will have judged me for staying with Helen. I had people say oh, you shouldn't stay it's not fair to keep the children in that relationship, you know in that household. Claudia 47:53 If you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here, please email parenting@somethinelse.com. That's parenting at something without a G, else.com. This podcast was possible with the help of lovely people at Somethin' else. The sound engineer is Benjamin Lincoln. The mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The system producer is Hannah Tolbert. The producer is Selina Ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening! Transcribed by https://otter.ai