Claudia: What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one-off session with a real person, names have been changed for confidentiality. Please note this episode contains some distressing content, including discussion around suicide and death, which may not be suitable for all listeners. 
Gary: I have not been to the HAC or the honorable artillery company since then. And I've just walked past it this morning and stood outside. Well, I'll just find myself just crying outside it. 
C: This is how did we get here? With me Claudia Winkleman and my excellent friend, clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron. We look at some of the issues that people are facing in their daily lives. In each show Tanya talks to our guest in a one-to-one session. And I listen in, asking questions in the breaks. Please note this episode was recorded before lockdown in a studio. This time, we meet Gary who served in the military and for the British transport police, he is troubled by some of the horrifying and tragic things he dealt with as part of his job. Gary, who is married with three children, felt his life spiral out of control as a result of what he now realizes is PTSD. He says he wasn't given the tools to deal with what he saw.
Let's go and meet Gary.
Why are you here?
G: Well, basically just to try and hopefully raise some awareness around men's mental health and get, you know, really encouraged guys to talk about the mental health to be open about it. 
C: You came to this conclusion because something happened to you? Tell me, tell me your story. 
G: Well, basically I joined the British transport police back in 2003. I was quite old when I joined I was sort of 34/35, expected, you know, to, to deal with police type stuff and trauma but nothing really prepared me for continuous trauma that I did with fatalities on the railway. And of course we had the London bombings in 2005. I was actually off duty at that time. My wife had just had our third son and I was part of our anti-terrorism team at the time. So I got back in the following day and then, uh, my governor came down and just said, you're off to the mortuary. And I sort of asked why. And they said well you’re an ex-squaddie aren’t you? So I said, yeah. He said, congratulations we need a skipper down there, a sergeant. Well I was sort of like, well, you've got one part, right. I'm a squaddie, I’m not a skipper. And he said, congratulations on your promotion. And off, I went down as an acting Sergeant. Just down the road to the HAC where the temporary mortuary was situated.
C: Gary can I ask you, you mentioned that HAC. What is it? 
G: That's the honorable artillery company, very famous old regiment. And that was utilized during the bombings.
And they've got a huge, um, sports field in amongst the grounds, which was then. Broken down into the four sites for the four bombing areas. And I was there for just under eight weeks helping to identify the victims and what was left of the bombers. And I've never seen anything like that in my life. It's not until later in lifetime, that things started to come back.
C: Going back to your first point about men, you were probably being big and brave. 
G: Of course 
C: Your wife had just had a newborn. You had two other boys. How old were they? 
G: Right. So my oldest lad, Danny would have been. Nearly seven, uh, Joe would have been around five and 
C: not to have, you know, that's a lot. And you just went off to work every day and saw, 
G: yeah, we were dealing with obviously the victims and without going into too much detail, you know, in a bad shape, given that they're been down in the tunnel for some days, it had, it was a very hot summer. The blast injuries were just atrocious. You know, we were working. Anything between 12 to 14 hours a day. One of my duties there as well was to take the deceased through to family viewing area. Once we had managed to identify them, I never used to take any notice of the sort of little pictures that the mortuary team had. To help assist or assist us, identifying those people because it just got a bit personal. And then one day I had to take this young kid through, he was, um, my understanding was one of the youngest victims and I never used to look at the cards or whatever, I’d just put them in the body bags with the flowers, zip them back up and take them back to where I got them from, you know, crack on with the paperwork and whatever.
But when I took this young boy through, I dunno how some of the staff came about this information, but they said that this young fellows, dad was coming to view. And, um, apparently he just lost his wife and that was his only child. Um, so I took him through and when I went back into to bring him out I caught the card, uh, it just, it done me well, it was so well overwhelming and, and a feeling of, um, guilt I had instantly because I was going home to my new baby and my two other babies. And, uh, sorry, 
C: Were people around you going, are you alright? Anybody checking on the mental health of the people who are having to deal with them. 
G: It sort of goes back to what we, we opened up with. I had two minutes to myself, went back, took this kid kid back, but you just puff your chest out and you crack on because that's what blokes do. Yeah. And before I knew it the time had come that we sort of wrote down the mortuary. Um, we went back to normal policing duties.
C:  How do you get back to normal after that? 
G: That's a good question because it's, from that point on, I would really suggest that what was normal is a bit like now with this COVID.
Yeah. 
C: Um, but after, also after you seeing that and not discussing it, it must have reared its head.
G: It took a while. Um, because. You put on this front all the time. And that's how my career went by. I didn't speak to anyone because I was, I was ashamed of myself because I thought I was tougher than that and better than that, but then there's also the other side of it where you think, well, everyone looks at you as a leader. You're always there, you know, in whatever situation you're always at the front, always in the thick of stuff. What are they going to think of you? What's your management going to think of you. 
C: And even at home, did you unravel to your wife? 
G: No. And it was tough because my wife being a police officer, my wife was, uh, in a child protection team. So she was, you know, dealing with her own traumas. 
C: When did it catch up with you? How did it manifest itself? 
G: I would suggest probably three or four years after the bombings. I was drinking quite heavily and I was drinking. So I could nullify the events of that working day. So I could then try and get some sleep because the nightmares and flashbacks were just beyond compare. It was as if I was actually reliving the moment, you know, all the senses were there, the sights, the sounds, the smells, it was putting a strain on the. The relationship with the wife. I wasn't aware of it, but I was also taking it out on my two oldest boys. It got to the point where my oldest boy, he dreaded me coming home because he didn't know what reception he would get, you know? And he was worried that I'll be shouting, not only him, but his brother as well. I knew there was something wrong, but I couldn't get to the grips of it. You know, the crux of it. And then I, in 2012, I think we were quite close to getting divorced because of my behavior. And I got involved in something off duty, which cops should never, ever do unless it's, you know, life or limb. 
C: Yeah. 
G: But this was quite serious. And eventually, um, resulted in me, fighting with a guy on a train station. After he tried to push two young cops onto a live track, he was smashed out of his head on gear and booze. I had to punch him. He tried to bite me. I still maintain it was lawful and proportionate. However, I ended up in crown court and it cost me my job. I was found guilty of an, uh, uh, an ABH offense. Um, you know, and even the judge, he was brilliant. He actually guided the jury twice to a not guilty verdict because the evidence was all in my favor, but you're judged by your peers and that was that. That was it for me, that was rock bottom. 
C: You needed to get to the bottom.
G:  I went back this again, this was in 2013 Christmas time December, and the judge was great. And he sent me to see the top forensic shrink in the country because he knew I was struggling. And he basically said now look Gary's a normal guy.
His actions on that day are purely through, uh, the events that he was involved with during the London bombings in 2005 and all subsequent fatalities thereafter I’ll never forget it it is sort of almost verbatim. Once we'd got that, the penny dropped with the wife and I, you know, I, my diagnosis, I've got chronic complex PTSD.
C: You started off this chat saying you want men to seek help and to get rid of the stigma. But I am now going to ask you that question, but I want to think, I want you to think about you when you leave here. What do you want for you? 
G: To be able to walk away from here this morning and, and I made a point of doing it, walking here, I walked past the HAC. I've not been there since 2005, and I must admit I've just stood outside the gates for a couple of minutes and had a moment. Um, yeah, but you can't forget that stuff but I don’t know just to take a little bit of weight off my shoulders, if that makes sense. 
C: Makes total sense. 
G: Yeah.
Tanya: You are somebody who naturally wants to be in the middle of things, helping others. That is that's your personality, isn't it? 
G: Probably. Yeah.
T: You're a, you're a crisis manager. You're a problem solver. 
G: Can't solve my own problems sometimes, but yeah
T: Well it feels like you have the journey it's taken you on, is that you now run a really excellent charity PTSD 999, where you support people similar to you who are struggling with PTSD because of what they've experienced in their jobs. 
G: Yeah. I didn't realize that the levels there are within the emergency services, not just the police but all of the emergency services of the men and women that are struggling in absolute silence, you know, and it's not always associated with the men and women out on the front line. A classic example of that is the, the men and women who were taking the calls for the Grenfell fire, that talking to people who were above a certain level in that block of flats. And she's basically saying we can't get to you. 
T: But you have to care for the carers. 
G: Absolutely. 
T: Otherwise at best you become burnt out at worst you develop complex PTSD and end up. With it only being diagnosed when you're on an ABH charge, which is your experience and then of course you're left with guilt and shame and you lost your job. And I mean, it, it just beggars belief actually. I mean, it's the lack of duty of care that is shown to personnel is, is astonishing.
G: Thankfully I wasn't sentenced to a term in prison because that would have just been awful. Yeah. A former cop in prison. With a lot of people that he’s probably put in there anyway. 
T: No, 
G: It would have been a bit unbearable. 
T: Absolutely. 
G: But I went home that evening and didn't really talk to the wife cause I'd expressed to her, I'd sit down with the kids the night before and say, there's a good chance I'm not coming home tomorrow and explain that process to them. And I, uh, The wife went to work the following day and kids were at school and I went to go and take my own life, I was in just such a bad place because of what you just said, all the guilt, the shame that I brought in the family. I was out of work. I'm doing the manly thing again. You know, I'm there to look after my family and then just everything imploded on me. And I just went and sat, um, a place where I'd dealt with well, too many fatalities and just waited for that fast one to come in. And when it was approaching, all I had to do was stand up and just either fall forward or step forward, and the train would have taken care of business.
T: What stopped you? 
G: The train was hurtling towards me. And I just had, I dunno, this moment of absolute clarity and then just sort of fell back on me ass, had a good cry and realized I was being a bit of a selfish twat and I've got to do something. Went home, Um, it came to a point where I just broke down in doors and I explained what I tried to do. I'm lucky, I guess that because we'd had the diagnosis a little bit earlier and everything had sort of fallen into place and we sort of, we've tried to move on as best we can since then. It's been very difficult. I still have my moments this time of the year. I'm really struggling because it's the anniversary of the bombings. Yeah. I have not been to the H, A or the honorable artillery company since then. And I just walked past it this morning and stood outside, but I've just found myself just crying outside it. I felt better for it. 
T: I was going to say what? Yeah. What, what, what were those tears? Cause obviously you could have stood out there and had masses of flashbacks and panic. I can see the tears in your eyes now. 
G: Yep. It was almost like I was just watching a rerun on a video of it, of us all queuing up and going in and then. People going off to do their separate things. It was really unpleasant. Um, you know, the environment we were going into, you know, I must admit I did feel a bit better for it. 
T: You mean this morning standing having a cry? 
G: Yeah, because I've just not done it. You know, it was a bit of a release, I think, a bit of a relief, more than anything that I've got that bit off my chest.
T: It feels more like grief than anxiety. It feels like a movement on, from more of a PTSD response to, does that make sense to you?
G: Yeah. As I was coming in this morning, um, in my head, I'd already picked various routes to get here.
T: You mean by that, just to avoid anxiety, you know, one of the ways we try and deal with anxiety is to avoid, which is fine if it's an actual threat, cause you've got to avoid it in order to survive. But obviously with psychological levels of acute or chronic anxiety, if you avoid something that makes you anxious at a psychological and emotional level, It's actually counterproductive because by avoiding it, you reinforce the belief that it's trauma and danger.
G: Yeah, absolutely. You know, coming in on the train, I hate going on  public transport now, 
T: Of course you do. 
G: And so I was, I was very anxious sitting on the train, you know, and having been part of their, their newly formed anti-terrorism team, some of the stuff that we'd seen and the training that we had, you know, that, that comes flooding back.
And then I thought. Right. I've got options. I can turn right and walk the long way round, or I can just walk straight through and end up by the HAC and I just thought sod it, I've done the train journey now. Let's try and move on a bit more and get that out the way. 
T: So you did, what's called exposure, systematic desensitization exposure work, which is the idea that we as mental health practitioners, when we're working with people with PTSD or in your case, Chronic and complex PTSD because you've had multiple experiences over a long period of time, but that would be to support you, to revisit with your therapist, the narrative of what happens. You would see it as you're discussing it. And as therapists, we will keep you feeling safe. We will keep you, help you keep your anxiety levels down. So you, you re-expose yourself to the images in the memories, but you alter your emotional state and it's sort of what you did this morning. When you stood outside the HAC, you kept yourself calm, you just reflected and you cried. And I would say that's an incredibly healthy thing that you did. Huge admiration. 
G: I do have my moments still when, you know, thankfully over the years, you know, Sharon and the boys, they recognize straight away when I'm sort of starting to slip back a little bit, 
T: How would they know you were slipping back? What would you, what would happen?
G: I become very sort of quiet sort of take myself away from the family. And I just keep myself to myself. They'll just give me a nudge, oi, Mr. PTSD and they’ll take the piss out of us a wee bit because they've got used to…
T: But they're saying, come back, dad, come back, dad, we’re here.
G: And it does.
Claudia: Please. Can you explain to me the difference between PTSD, which I think most of us now have heard about it. We know that people come back from war and have to deal with it and what he has, which is chronic complex PTSD. What's the difference. 
T: So PTSD is post traumatic stress disorder. So you have a traumatic experience, an accident, you know, loss of a loved one in, in, in, in a particularly sort of difficult, challenging, unpleasant, horrific, unexpected way you witness something horrific horrendous. It's that kind of out of the blue experience. Um, Or not even out of the blue, because obviously soldiers in war will experience things that they are trained in to experience prepared to experience, but still the experience itself will cause post-traumatic stress disorders. So that's when a memory is encoded in a way that it isn't just autobiographical i.e I can remember it if I'm asked, I can talk about it. I may feel sad or upset, but it doesn't, it doesn't debilitate me. So it's where the triggering event, it could be. A piece of music could be something you read it. It could be a smell transports you right back to the moment where. The actual trauma occurred and you experience the same level of fear and terror and horror and shock, even if it's years and years later, complex PTSD is when there are people for whom this has happened a number of times. So for Gary, the experiences in the police force and the, around the seven, seven bombings and so on and so forth. He has had a number of extremely traumatic events that have happened over time because he's had no support to process them. All of them just layer upon layer, get encoded. In a part of the brain called the amygdala. We've talked about it before Claud in, in other programs we've done and it is encoded so that if it's re-imagined, if it's remembered it's relived and chronic is when it just continues, continues, continues, continues. It's a chronic ongoing experience that that person will have. So the risk of being triggered is always there.
C: Okay. Back to the chat.
T: And you were drinking, you said.
G: Massively
T: That was your coping strategy
G: As a young infantry soldier in the Royal green jackets. That's all we, any young Squaddie does you just drink, especially when you're away, but when I was really, really struggling, I turned into a proper booza, I mean, my wife did, uh, Uh, statement that we use sometimes in the presentations that we do and there’s part of it where she talks about going to the fridge, now no disrespect to my wife, she burns boiling water so clearly I do all the cooking indoors, I’m mainly in the fridge. And she went to the fridge to get some stuff out to make a sandwich or something, and it was full of beer, wine, Jack Daniels. And I couldn't see a problem with it. 
T: Numb narcotize black it out, block it out for sure. 
G: I'd go to bed smashed out my head. You know, it was just too ignorant. Arrogant, I suppose. I don't know. 
T: I'd say vulnerable. I am curious whether you have quite forgiven yourself because I do think you do carry a lot of guilt and shame. 
G: You’re absolutely right I do.
T: Have you forgiven yourself? 
G: Not really and I don't know why. 
T: Okay. Well, let's talk about that, listening to your story and that there will be lots of people listening to your story. I can't imagine anybody will want to do anything else than just hug you and say thank you for your bravery. Thank you for putting your mental health at risk in order to do a job that most people literally. Just wouldn't even,  wouldn't want to. I mean, now, I mean, who wants to do what you did? I mean, it was horrific. Why are you crying? Sorry. I was closing my eyes when I was talking, so I've only just opened them again. 
G: I don't really do well with compliments. 
T: You've lost a lot of self-respect, which is extraordinary for a man that I sit here and I have nothing but enormous respect for. 
G: When I come out of the army, um, I went into the territorial army and I was looking after people and instructing people there, you know, working, doing stuff in the, in the TV sort of industry, when we're showing people how to use firearms and stuff like that, straight away, you've got, again, a duty of care towards those people, you know? And the police was, uh, I guess an exceptional thing where not only were you upholding the law and the Queen’s peace, but you were looking after everyone. 
T: But you’re very good at that. But what you're not so great at is looking after yourself. There was no one there in any specific, formal way, when you were picking bits of body parts off rail tracks, it's difficult for you to know how to look after yourself. It's easy for you to know how to look after others. 
G: One, uh, example we, myself and my partner from work, we had a dreadful fatality. We left, left work in between where both of us live is our little British Legion club. And there was about 40 minutes left on the clock before the bar closed and I think maybe in half an hour, we'd done about seven pints. He turned around at me and went. That was shit wasn’t it. And my response was yeah do you want another pint. And that was me and him dealing with that horrible scenario.
T: There you are in the British Legion club or whatever on your sixth or seventh pint going Well, that was shit. Wasn't it? Year it was do you want another pint. Is that how blokes are supposed to do it? 
G: I don't know. Whoever's written that script has clearly got it wrong because
T: It's a bit crap. Isn't it? 
G: Yeah. It's, it's the worst case, but we never, ever spoke. And I remember getting. A bit of a rollicking off of him after one event. We were dealing with a big public order situation. Um, the football hooligans, and I went on the train, uh, big fight. Um, and I dragged this guy off the train and we got him to the back of the vehicle and my colleague went to me. You really need to sort yourself out, mate. 
T: Was he saying you, you were putting yourself at risk.
G: Yeah. And possibly others dealing with people like that. It wasn't an issue, but I just become so focused. 
T: He saw something happen. He saw a switch flick in your head 
G: My tolerance had gone. 
T: Right. So anxiety is the fight flight or freeze response, isn't it? 
G: Yeah. 
T: So you. Do one of two things you have avoided in the past.
G: Yeah. 
T: And alcohol is a very good way of avoiding emotional pain, anxiety, trauma, et cetera. So avoidance is a strategy you've used. So that's flight, but fight is another way. I suppose, and I suppose to some degree, the ABH charge to some degree
G: That was the trigger, um, for, for the PTSD. 
T: You're talking about the ABH moment now.
G: Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. All I could think about then was I'd pulled these two young coppers away from the edge of the platform. We've got this guy on the floor because he'd tried to throw them on the track. He tried to bite me. I punched him. I was straight back to the mortuary and this. 
T: In your head that's what you were seeing
G: yeah because in my head I could hear my son shouting from the far end of the platform, he was watching his dad fighting. Um, and all I could think of was there was potential if I go on this live track. That's me. I'm up in smoke and my boy and my family. 
T: And you were back with that father looking at his, his dead son
G: And I was so angry with this individual for, cause the other chap he was with lept across in front of the train as it was coming in cause my son, Joe thought he'd seen someone be crushed by a train. So he's dealing with that. And all I could think of was this dad in the card that he left with, uh, you know,
um, for his son. 
T: You're seeing it now, tell me what you're seeing
G: In the mortuary, the flowers and cards, but it's just, you know, seeing them words on that card. 
T: Are you able to say what you read> You can’t? That's fine. That's fine.
G: That mortuary thing is a picture it's like looking at picture on the wall there, it's there. I can't, I can't change. I can't get rid of it as much as I want. So, and some of the sort of therapy that we had, thankfully it determined that that really was what I was struggling with. Um, my job wouldn't pay for any more therapy. I certainly wasn't in a position to, um, be able to pay for it so it stopped. I can talk about anything else, but just that, I just can’t and won’t.
T: Absolutely. But, you know, without the detail, which isn't actually necessary, what you read was a father saying goodbye to his son. Yeah. And of course you're a father of three boys. I mean, it just, I mean, there's layer upon layer upon layer of, of pain
G: Couple of simple words on a, on a card for, from a father to his only child. I just can't even think about having to write.
T: In that moment, what it did, was it personalized the job. You're obviously doing the best you can. You're being as compassionate as you can to those you're dealing with, but you have to keep some kind of boundary and then you read something. You read it, not just as a professional, but you read it as a father. And then it blows that professional boundary away. And that's when I think it got past, it got past the professional boundary and it's still lodged there, like a bullet. 
G: Yeah. 
T: So the question is, how does that bullet come out? How do we take that bullet out? 
G: I feel that I've got a lot better over the years. Um, you know, the flashbacks and whatever else, thankfully, they're nowhere near as regular as they used to be. This time of the year, it's like Christmas, we all know it's coming. 07/07 will always be with me. There is other stuff that we've dealt with. That surpasses the horrors that we saw there. But for some reason that sticks with me.
T: If we think about our jobs, we have a sort of a sort of shield don't we? So that w you know, the bullets come and you hear all this stuff, but it it's it deflects because you're thinking about it professionally in that moment, one of those bullets got past that shield and it hit you square in your, in your heart. And you encoded that memory. As a father and that memory as a father then of course re emerged when, as a father with your son, Joe, there on the platform, you thought this could happen to my family. 
G: Yeah. 
T: So that's where PTSD is. It's it's the way a memory is built around trauma, but also the meaning of that memory. And that moment meant something to you personally, not only professionally. I think my headline is you want to look after other people. And I think you, you do that and you do it extremely well. I don't think you see that. So I think that's the first part of, of my thinking today is there is a bit of work to help you reposition. Your sense of yourself in all of this? 
G: Yeah. 
T: It's time to let go of the guilt and shame. It's time to be a survivor guilt and shame is what men feel when they get into a situation like ABH, even though it's triggered by PTSD, guilt, and shame is what people feel when they drink too much. When they shout at their wife and their kids, their husband, and their kids, their partners, and their kids. It's guilt and shame. And I, and that, I think you still carry. Yeah, and we have to think about a way for you to take that rucksack off now, I think you've been carrying it for too long. So that's point number one point number two, I think is somehow you've managed to cobble together enough support for you to have, I think, done a huge amount of work in your journey. But if I think of you as someone who has taken a lot of bullets, you are the man who will stand it, or you were a close protection officer. You stand between the target and the gunman. You've taken a lot of bullets. And I think you have taken out quite a few of those bullets, but I still think there are two or three still lodged. I think those memories, you still need some work around. So you and I need to think about how, how that's done, not here. Now we will talk about that and think about that for you. But there is something we could do now and we could take a break so you could think about it. And it's very much, if you want to, if we are professionals who, and you are a professional now through your charity, we cannot really be telling others. Now it's your time. You need to look after yourself. If we're not prepared to do that ourselves, how can we help you leave here today with a sense of pride and self-respect, let's have a practice together and see how you do. 
G: Okay.
Claudia: I'd like to talk to you about men's mental health. Why don't men ask for help? Because women do your, my girlfriend, your girlfriend, my girlfriends, even if it's like. The kids would drive me mad, or I just feel really sad and I felt like I'm sort of unraveling and can we just meet for a cup of tea? We do that all the time and men don't.
T: So, I mean, it's, I think it's around the socialization of gender. I think it's around sort of primitive stereotypes around gender roles. 
C: Yeah. Men having to be brave. Yeah. Which is a nonsense. They don't.
T: Bravery. I mean, I don't think anybody could say that Gary isn't anything other than unbelievably brave, I mean seriously, but you know, it's this idea that if you're brave, um, somehow you won't feel it. But I think probably what made Gary particularly good at his job is that he showed compassion and respect to the families of those who had been killed. We know that if you look at the annual suicide statistics, you know, it's up near 80%, the number of men who take their own lives. Every year, it, in terms of everybody who takes their own lives, 80% almost are men. We know that men struggle to ask for help, probably because it sits around this idea that big boys don't cry. I think it's changing. I work in a lot of adolescent and young adult mental health, and I see more and more. Young men coming, asking for help and support. So it's about conversation and it's about seeing vulnerability as strength. But I think for men, vulnerability is seen as weakness.
C: I want Gary to tell his story differently or for him to have some pride, he feels like a moral compass giant of a man. Don't worry. I'll deal with it. 
T: He takes the bullets. Yeah.
C: Yeah. How does he reframe that? 
T: So the concept of reframing is about how perception can make a huge difference to our experience of past events, current circumstances, you know, in a kind of cliched way. It's is, are you a sort of, is the glass half full or is the glass half empty? That's so that's. That's a very basic version of, of reframing. And you know, when you look at concepts like resilience, resilience is often around how people cope with really difficult circumstances in terms of how they respond to the anxiety. Does the anxiety cause them to collapse into themselves and feel helpless and sort of victimized, or does it enable them to push themselves into a space where they are going to find their way through? It's interesting with Gary. He's an incredibly resilient man. I mean, extraordinarily resilient. The issue for him, I think is he, I think is still struggling to a degree, not like he did, but to a degree because the memories of what he has experienced are overlaid with guilt and shame. We understand why he got into the fight with the guy and ended up with the ABH charge the judge. Mm. Bless him understood that, you know, it was understood. Understanding doesn't mean we condone behavior, but it means that we find a way to look at it so that we can get the best outcomes for ourselves and others around that all Gary sees is his fault. He wasn't a good enough husband. He wasn't a good enough father when he was going through the P the really bad PTSD and the drinking. He needs to be able to process that and move past it because the, that is making everything still feel very painful for him on top of the pain that exists anyway, because of the trauma that he witnessed and experienced.
C: All right, Tan, let's get him in.
T: How you doing? 
G: Yeah. Um, do you know what it's actually nice to be able to feel the back of the sofa from the first thing this morning.
T: You were sitting bolt up, right? You're right. Yeah.
G: Now I do feel as if a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Now it's just been an amazing experience. 
T: You deserve it because you're a hero. I can hear your buttocks clenching with embarrassment. 
G: Yeah, you're right.
T: I use the word hero because I do believe you are a hero, but I use the word hero because I wanted to see your reaction. And you reacted in that way, because you can tell everybody else they're a hero, but you just cannot allow yourself to be proud of yourself. 
G: Yeah you’re right.
T: What are you the most proud of when you look back over those difficult times in terms of yourself? You’ve never even ever thought about that before. How do you recognize what. What you've achieved, what you've done 
G: Off the top of my head, when I was going to go through that process of the court hearing, stuff like that, the public area was full of police officers and some senior police officers from my force and that was…
T: To support you?
G: Yeah, absolutely. 
T: That's lovely. 
G: Um, and that was something I didn't really anticipate. Um, and when I lost my job and I had to resign, I was given a choice to resign or go before a panel. And there was a gentleman that came up from our professional standards and he had to ask for my warrant card in, um, in the court, in the little room and he cried. You know, you just think yourself, wow, have I had that, that much of an impact on the people that I work with 
T: And it's bringing tears to your eyes now. 
G: Yeah. It's um, you know, it and comments were made to me afterwards when I left you sort of expect it, you know, people were like I’m really sorry Gaz, so many kind words. I guess on reflection, if that was how people remember me, then those comments from people who were extremely sincere. I'm proud of that, I guess. Um, 
T: You're proud of what others think of you, which is great. I'm curious about, 
G: oh, no, just honestly Tan, it's I know 
T: We’re getting there, we're just, we're drilling down.
G: People aren't just saying it because they can it's because they mean it so embrace it, enjoy it. You know, I love hearing people commenting now on my kids, as when we were kids, my dad's friends would pat your, your boys and your girl, wonderful kids, so polite. So it is, um, you know, in say about my lads and it's just like, that's really nice.
T: And if your lads were here now, what would they say about you? And that's made you really tear up. You must know that they have a sense of pride for you and a sense of respect for you. What have they said to you? 
G: I think it's just, um, when they just say those couple of words, we love you. 
T: Why do they love you do you think? 
G: I'm trying to put right all the wrongs, especially for my two eldest boys and the way that I treated them. And I'm so sorry for, you know, the way that I behaved. 
T: Okay. I understand what you're saying, but I want to put it to you in a different way. I mean, let's say it wasn't complex PTSD. Let's say you had a really debilitating physical health problem. That made you removed, you know, impacted on your personality, impacted on your emotions. You know, people who are very, very ill, uh, if it was a physical health problem, would you be sitting out now, you’re smiling, you know exactly what I'm asking you. Would you be sitting here saying to me, I let them down. 
G: No, because again, you're so good at what you do.
T: Thank you
G: Um, because it's not a physical thing that you can actually see. So therefore you can't deal with mental health because you, you can't see what's going on inside someone's head. You can't see how they're feeling, 
T: But not only that, if it was a physical health problem, you wouldn't say I was a shit dad, because I had. You know a major debilitating chronic physical health problem. When the boys were younger, you'd say it was awful. And yeah, Sharon was amazing and we got through and you know, but unfortunately we were unlucky and I was diagnosed with X and this is what happened. You, you wouldn't take any responsibility for a physical health problem, right. Because we can't make ourselves have a physical health problem. If we've got one, we've got one. Did you give yourself complex PTSD? Did you make it up? 
G: It's a good question. 
T: Of course you didn’t. Throughout your professional career, you dealt with horror after horror, trauma, after trauma with no support so you had a mental health condition that impacted on your behavior around your wife and kids for the period of time that it, that it went on. From 2005 until 2013, when the ABH thing happened, right? You were unwell, you know, your boys love you. Don't you think you owe it to them to start to show yourself some respect.
G: I owe that to a lot of people, I guess I'm sitting here now and it’s sort of like, oh God, this is so difficult.
T:  Just requires you to shift your perception. It's not as big as you're making it. You've just got to allow yourself to say I got through, I did well to focus on what you really achieved and to recognize the mistakes you made, the things you regret as part of life. What's on your tombstone I always find these really interesting, these moments where we ask people, how do you want to be remembered? What do you want people to say about you? 
G: The fat bloke was a really good guy. 
T: Why was he good?
G: I suppose the bottom line is that I’ve always been there for most people. 
T: You're loyal
G: If I had a penny in my pocket and it was the last penny I had and you needed it. You can have it. 
T: You’re generous. In a crisis. Are you, did you not tell me earlier that you're the person that people look to to lead them? 
G: Yeah. 
T: Okay. So you're loyal, you're generous and you're a leader when people need to feel safe and led.
G: Yeah. Yeah. Ok.
T: I'm not making this up. 
G: No. Um, it's just, uh,
T:  I'm telling you what you've told me. 
G: Yeah, it's just that I don’t recognize it. Simon, the other co-founder to our organization, he said the same to me on the train. Just be you. I guess I don't really know what me is if I'm to be brutally honest.
T: But they do so you need to ask them, get those people you love and trust your boys, your wife, your good mates, get them to help you work it out. Help me see myself differently. What are you trying to achieve by looking at yourself? Maybe S maybe a level of self-respect and self-forgiveness. 
G: Yeah, I mean, the self-respect thing is, is huge. I've let myself go over the years and I shouldn't, I should be out there running. I should be doing this. I should be, I can't be assed. But there, I I'm telling people, look at your diet, look at your physical health, look at your mental health. 
T: Take your own advice.
G: Yeah. And I think that's the, if we take anything away from today that has got to be the answer to your question. Thank you for that answer.
T: Which is what?
G: Take a good look at myself and then my own advice 
T: And look after yourself.
G: Absolutely. Yeah. 
T: Gary, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. 
G: Thank you so much. It's um, it's been amazing. Thank you.
Claudia: Normally, I come in and I'm all like friendly and sweet. I'm going to be quite strict with you. So get ready. 
G: I'm ready. 
C: You do look joyful 
G: because I know what's coming. 
C: I need you to feel about you like we all do, I could cry. So listen to me, whatever you think about yourself. If you're down on yourself, no offense, but you're just wrong because no, genuinely you need to listen to me, me Tan, our studio manager, Josh and our producer, Selena and Grace. We have all fallen for you. We respect it. I'm not just saying this and you have to open your ears. Otherwise I'm going to physically open them and I'm short, but I'm unbelievably strong and let's not get into a tussle. And let me just say, I know you feel bad about what happened, but parents mess up that is normal, Tan’s taught all of us that, so if you were skipping home going, I've been in the mortuary, but I'll tell you what I'd like to do some craft. Do you mind just grabbing that cereal packet? I haven't made a pirate ship for at least a week. Silly daddy. Don't be ridiculous. 
G: Yeah. 
C: And as I said to Tan, which you won’t have heard. What you did for all of us, for my family, for people I don't know for the UK for London is insurmountable. I can't put it into words, but you have to have some pride in that when we first met, you said you wanted to feel lighter, like a weight's been taken off. I hope you do feel that. Do you?
G: Yeah, honestly, now I could just curl up in here and have half an hours kip.
C: You’re very welcome. I love a nap. I will also nap, but I really need you to feel proud of what you've done. And not only you personally, whether it was all the people you've protected, the respect you have given to others, both who were victims and their families. Delivering those horrific, like you said, it so casually delivering death messages, everything that you've done, but also what you're now doing for your charity. You're a superhero. I know you don't like going on public transport. I've got to tell you you're going to like it less when you leave wearing the Cape I've been making, cause you deserve a Cape. And what you also wanted to do by coming here today is just show. Men specifically, cause the statistics that Tan told me earlier are horrific. That it is really good to share to unravel because I know lots of women don't but we're also quite good at it. 
G: Yeah. 
C: You know, I'm a bit overwhelmed. I'm not really coping. I want you to get more help. You have to stay in touch with us as a programme. Please do it. Um, cause we care about you, but mainly I need you to leave 10 foot high. From all of us. And I don't always say that. Normally I just come in saying, was it nice? Here is here's a biscuit, but I feel responsible. And I feel like it's important that you hear that.
G: Never met you before, but I've been made to feel so welcome. And if people can take away that sense of if that fat bloke in the office can go and do it, I'm sure if we can stop a family going through what I put my family through and then we've achieved and it's as simple as that, 
C: It's great for others, but this also has to be great for you. And when you said you put your family through something, now you don't, or whether you're sitting around the table tonight, I want you to take a moment and you can raise a glass to that amazing wife you have to those boys who worship you to your future together and what you and your wife, by the way have done professionally. You've helped us all. 
G: Thank you. 
C: So feel amazing. Thank you for coming in. So sorry about being so bossy,
C: You must see it all the time. When you talk to somebody who can't see themselves. I think he will be able to, and I know he's going to talk to his wife and his friends and he will get further help, but look what he's done with his life. 
T: He's quite extraordinary isn’t he.
C: He's extraordinary. He can't say it for himself yet he started this charity, I'd like to name it PTSD999 he’s worrying about everybody else. Not himself. You must see that a lot. 
T: Yeah. But I also see it a lot in people who do jobs. Like I do. People who do jobs like Gary did, you know, working in the emergency services. He was a, he was a soldier before that. I see it with colleagues of mine, you know, medics. That is the pathology of the carer as well. You know? And you know, you could argue that sometimes a good way to avoid. Your own stuff is to, is just to spend your whole time looking out for other people's, it's a, it's an avoidance of sort of owning your own pain. So I suppose as, as, as, as professional carers, if you like, it's so important that we have the structures and the mechanisms to enable us to also sort of look after ourselves. And, and I think a lot of us aren’t very good at doing that. 
C: And the idea that he was sitting here and sort of couldn't. See it, although he did start to, and I think he is on the road now. 
T: Yeah but that comes down to guilt and shame. Um, look, we all make mistakes in our lives. We all do things we regret. Nobody is perfect. Of course, there's always a line. That should not be crossed. Of course there have to be consequences. You know, I'm not sort of saying that if we explain everything, then we have to condone it. You know, we have to have rules, there have to be boundaries. There have to be consequences to behaviors, but there also has to be a point at which we acknowledge that we're human, that we're flawed and we then find a way. You know, towards reparation towards others if necessary, but also for reparation for ourselves. And I think that's the last part for him. I hope that he could see that. And he will use his friends and his sons and his wife to just help him reframe the way he sees himself. You, you were lovely with him.
C: No, I was bossy with him, but I love him. And I just want to say to anybody who's listening, we will keep, we will. Well, like everybody, all the wonderful people who come in, we will tell you. Um, what happens? We'll send it, we'll give you Gary updates, 
T: But you have to go and finish sewing his Superman Cape. 
C: Yes. It's coming along very well. I do hope he likes glitter Tan.
C: Just so you know, we always follow up with our guests providing useful contacts and information. Some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode. Please do share this podcast. You can send links direct from the app. If you like, you can also follow to get new episodes as soon as they come out. Also, we would love to know what you think. Do rate comment and give us a five star review. It all helps us to make more. And finally, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email describing your issue to how@somethinelse.com that's how, how. At something else.com something is without the G. Next time we meet Asher.
Asher: How can there be physical attraction, sexual attraction, when you're just like feeling high anxiety all the time.
C: This podcast was made by the team at Somethin’ Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Grace Laiker. The producer is Selina Ream and the executive producers are Claire Solan and Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening.