Claudia W.: What you're about to hear are the key parts of an unscripted, one time session with a real person. Names have been changed for confidentiality. Please note that this episode contains some discussion around suicide, death, social anxiety, and PTSD, which may be unsuitable for some listeners. George: You've been back a day. The day before you were carrying people that had been blown up off a helicopter. Life's normal, but you're still in the same place. Your awareness is very different. Claudia W.: Hello, and welcome to 'How Did We Get Here' with me, Claudia Winkleman and my amazing friend clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron. In this podcast, we invited guests to tell us about a particular challenge they're having in their life. Tan talks to them in a one-to-one session and I listen in, asking questions from time to time. This time we meet George, he has a young daughter and son and is separated from his partner. George worked as a fireman for the RAF for 12 years, completing three tours of Iraq and Afghanistan. When he returned to the UK, he had night terrors and didn't want to leave the house. George's young children have occasionally been concerned for their father. George: Last night, my little lad said "is daddy okay?" And she said "I don't know". Claudia W.: Let's go and meet George. George, thank you so much for taking part. I'm gonna to say this on the outset, if you like. That you didn't write in your friend did. George: Yeah. Claudia W.: Is that because you think everything's fine? George: No, it's because I don't see my friends very often. I don't live anywhere near anyone and they came down to see me because they thought I was, wasn't doing too well. And I wasn't. Yeah, one of them contacted the podcast then I messaged me a few days later, just saying, keep an open mind, but I've done something you're going to get an email. Claudia W.: So, what a lovely friend. George: Yeah. Yeah. Claudia W.: Tell us why you're here. George: To be fair, I'm in a much better place than I was, um, but I'm still not, still not the same person that I used to be by a distance. Claudia W.: So, tell me about who you were and tell me about who you are now. George: I was a bit of a Jack the lad. Live for the day, rather than the future sort of thing. The change was, I know the year, it was 2007. I bought a house and got a girlfriend. I went from being very, very unemotional and I broke down crying one night in the pub. And now I can't watch an advert- Claudia W.: Without crying. Tell us what happened in 2007. George: Uh, I went to Iraq. For every day that I was there, I genuinely believed that I'd die. Claudia W.: What was your job in Iraq? George: In Iraq I was a firefighter. So we were at Bazra airport. When rockets come in and they hit the base, part of our job is to go out and deal with casualties. Everyone has to stay down, but the fire service had to go out to try and find where they were. And sometimes you'd be out and while you were out, rockets were coming in and you would just lay on the floor and you could see these rockets coming in. Claudia W.: So you're going through this, which must have been absolutely horrific and terrified for your life. Did you have any kind of counseling just to deal with what- George: No. Nothing. Um, absolutely nothing. There was, there was nothing, back then, um, they started to bring it in towards the very end, 2011-ish? They started to bring 'something' in, but not, not anything that actually looks after you, no. You get half a day where, we used to call it a cuddle day. I was sat there in 2011, come back from Afghanistan. And I was sat there with groups of people that had just come up from Italy and their biggest gripe was that the wifi went down and we just come back from Afghanistan and been carrying dead kids off helicopters. Claudia W.: Did you go back to warzones after that? George: Yeah, I went back in Afghan in 2009, and then Afghan in 2011. Claudia W.: How was that compared to Iraq? George: Afghan. No fear about dying, but anybody that got injured, every nationality they came in. Every single day, you were busy and you were seeing people that had been blown up, shot, children. They've bombed a school. That was every single day. Claudia W.: You say you're a bit better now. When it was bad, how bad was it? George: It got really bad when my relationship broke up. The first night that I was in the house on my own with no kids, I didn't sleep. That was, it was awful. 18 months, two years ago now? That was I, when I was at my worst. Claudia W.: Tell me a bit about the relationship breakdown, because you have these two lovely children, you have them for two days a week? George: It's two days each. Claudia W.: Lucy and Joe, how old are they? George: Seven and five in three weeks. Claudia W.: Quite difficult to look after them when you were feeling low? Or were they the two little golden lights. George: That yeah, they were the two things that helped me. Claudia W.: I mean, your face lights up when you talk about them, absolutely. You're sitting, I should just say in front of pictures that they have done for you, and when we first met, you said, oh yeah, it's a no brainer. You- their pictures always have to go up. You're working as a fireman. Because I want you to live near your mates. Where are they? George: Two and a half hours away. They're up in Manchester. Claudia W.: And you are living where you're living to be near the kids. George: I could move away, but then I wouldn't have the kids, and then I wouldn't be in a good place at all. Claudia W.: Of course. What's your relationship like with your ex? George: It's, it's like it's difficult, you know. Claudia W.: Why did you break up if you don't mind me asking? George: We did a secret marriage on the proviso that we'll do it properly one day. And then when I was due to propose, it was six days before, I found out she was cheating on me. Claudia W.: I'm so sorry. George: So that sort of uh, threw the plans out the window. Claudia W.: George you've been through too much. George: [laughs] Claudia W.: That's my headline. Are you close to your family? And then I'll let Tan come in. George: Yep. Yeah my mums my hero. Claudia W.: Oh, that's a lovely thing to say. I will disappear. You will talk to Tan, and you and I will talk at the end. George: Thank you. Tanya B.: What you saw and what you felt, I mean, it, it, it must have taken you to places psychologically that most people will never go to. I mean, it, it must have really been hugely traumatizing. George: So when you're over there it's normal and what's not normal is when you comeback and you're in the shop. And you've been back a day. The day before you were carrying people that had been blown up off a helicopter. I mean, I couldn't go around the shops, I tried it once. Um, I went out and I decided after 20 minutes I was going back home because there was too many people. There was, it was, it was too chaotic. Tanya B.: Yeah. You've described to Claudia. What sounded like a sort of agrophobia. You became agoraphobic. You literally could not go outside, you just shut yourself down. Shut yourself in. George: I didn't, I chose not to go outside unless a very, very, there was no choice. Unless there was, I had too. So, I'd go and visit Nan and Grandad, but I'd get in the car. I'd go into Nan and Grandad's house. I'd come back and get in my car. I'd go to my house, Tanya B.: The stuff that we all take for granted - go to the shops, you know, go to the pub, jump on a bus, do whatever, that for you felt overwhelming to the point that you just completely avoided it. So your life must've become very shutdown and very narrow. George: Yeah. Yeah. I started to make excuses quite, quite a lot back then. And it's something that I've carried on now. Tanya B.: It's interesting. You're saying even now, you know, there is a part of you that could still just go straight to avoidance rather than push yourself to do something Even if you know that something could be really nice You'll make excuses sometimes just to avoid George: all the time I still do. Tanya B.: Tell me why you still do? George: I don't know. From the moment of dropping the kids off at school or at their mum's, depending on what day it was., Words wouldn't come out of my mouth until I was in work the next day. So I could go 24 hours without speaking. So I started to go to a cafe in the morning, just so that I could see someone and speak to them. Tanya B.: Right. George: But that was easy. I was like, well, I'll do something different. I'll join the gym. I seem to be someone that people come and talk to. So, when people come and talk to me in the gym, I didn't like it, but I also don't like to be rude. So now I've started to avoid it, even though I'm still paying for the gym. I haven't been back since they've opened. You're okay if you choose to go somewhere and chat to the guy in the cafe or wherever, but the sense that if people encroach on your space and come to you, It feels very threatening to you. You don't like it. And that's the bit that you're still finding makes you want to avoid things. Yeah, definitely. That isn't who you used to be. Yeah. Do you want that bit back? It'd be nice to be able to enjoy things. I used to play football, for example, I used to, I, I'd, do anything and everything just to be out and about. Now I do anything and everything to be in on my own. And I know that, that's not good for me because that's what sends me down a bad path. So I know that it's not so much that I want to, I think, a have to. To make sure that when the kids decide that, you know, I'm old and boring now, they don't want to play with me, I'm not left on my own, I'm not just siting a house on my own. Tanya B.: Is that what you think I could help you with? Just how to find a way to reframe the fear and avoidance of social connection, random social connection. George: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think also not just random social connection, I think connecting with anyone. Since my ex that's left a massive impression on me. I don't know if I'm willing to trust anyone? The moment it gets a little bit close. I don't like it. Tanya B.: Why, what, what, what does it trigger in you? George: I'm not willing to go back to where I was two years. It broke me. Claudia W.: I'm just going to stop the tape and ask Tan a question. May I ask you about George's anxiety, about entering life again. Is that to do with him no longer trusting anybody because he found out his ex was unfaithful or is it to do with the tours? Is it to do with Afghanistan and Iraq and getting too close to people? Or is it a combination? Tanya B.: It's all of that. I mean, all of that, although, you know, quite different experiences, it all sits around loss and trauma and tragedy and despair, doesn't it? You know, I think what I'm seeing in George is a man who has learned to dissociate as a way of coping with trauma, the trauma of the breakdown of his relationship, which happened, you know, around the time he was suffering with what was obviously PTSD and combat stress. He is so afraid to feel anxious, he doesn't want to be triggered back into a depression, that he avoids anything that makes him anxious. Whether that is being around people, getting close to people, risking having another relationship. He's got to be able to separate the events from his past, from being able to live and fully engaged with life and relationships moving forward into his future. Claudia W.: Okay. Let's get back to the chat. Tanya B.: How dark did it get? George: Uh, there was plenty of times where I had thoughts. I'd be thinking, you know, I'd be better of, everyone would be better off without me. But at the same time I knew the kids wouldn't be. I actually had a friend last year who I served with, he took his own life a month after lockdown. Tanya B.: I'm so, so sorry to hear that. George: I speak to his, um, his wife quite a lot, and she's got three kids, and that, that really did fire home because it was around the same time that I wasn't in a great place. He was the one that you didn't expect. He was the Jack the lad, he was a family man, but he was also Jack the lad, and that hit home even more, so, that, I need to, I need to help myself. My kids need their Dad. Tanya B.: That's tragic. Three small children, a wife, because he gave his, literally actually gave his life for our country and was left to deal with what he couldn't eventually deal with and took his own life. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: And how close to that point, if you don't mind me asking, have you come over the years, come to over the years? George: I don't think I've ever come close enough because of the kids, so- Tanya B.: But have you had any intrusive thoughts around taking your own life. I mean, have you ever had those? George: Lots. Tanya B.: Have you ever had plans? George: No, because of the kids. Tanya B.: So you've not actively planned it, but you have thought. George: I'll be driving to somewhere and those thoughts are there. I could just do this. I could just drive off there and it's done, but the kids, how would they feel? Tanya B.: You have been clinically depressed, but you're not clinically depressed now, would that be a fair way of saying it? George: Yeah. Tanya B.: So you've shifted that depressive, sort of, sort of suicidal depression that you had, which I'm really pleased about, but the anxiety when you're on your own, I feel is probably still around, so yeah, talk me through that. George: I feel cold inside. My chest feels like it's about to explode and I could quite happily just close that down. Tanya B.: For people who listen to the podcast regularly, they'll know that I will often say to people, "Oh, I can see that you're anxious, I can see that your chest is tightening. I can-", I literally can't see it on you. I mean, you are masterful at masking what you've just described that you feel. Why? What is it that's happening here between you and me that has triggered this intense feeling of anxiety? George: I know what your aim is. I know what you are trying, you're trying to help me, which means me having to step out of my little comfort zone that I've created for myself. I've spoke to someone before who was saying the end result is I need to go and do things. Tanya B.: Re-engage with life. George: I did that. I went to, there was a food festival near me. Originally, my cousin was meant to come with me, but she canceled last minute, so I thought, well, no, I'm still gonna go. I went to this food festival, it was full of people, I was stood there on my own, there was brilliant food shacks, had a quick walk around, I got in my car, I drove home, and I ordered a take-away. Tanya B.: Amazing that you wanted to do that, and you were thinking in the right way, but I think what you did is, in attempting to climb a mountain, you, you sort of threw yourself up at sort of base camp four, I think there was a base camp one, base camp two, base camp three, that maybe you needed to do first, but obviously having had that experience, it just confirms to you, well, sod that I'm happy with just the way things are. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: But the risk is that unless you do this second half of recovery, which is deal with the anxiety, the avoidance, you risk your mental health being a little bit vulnerable, because as you said earlier, as we both agree, the kids cannot be everything. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: It's actually probably not very healthy for them to be everything to you. George: They know that I don't have any friends. Tanya B.: How do they know? What do they say? George: Cause they always ask me when we're at school "what are you going to do?" Like, I don't want them to worry about me cause they do. They've told me, they worry about me not having friends because my friends are so far away. They saw me at my worst where I could just start crying for no reason. Bedtime last night, my little girl came downstairs just to make sure that it was okay, and I was like, yeah, I'm fine, and she gets very worried about me. My little lad said "Is Daddy ok?" and she said "I don't know" um. But what I've, what I'm quite happy that I've done is they know they can talk to me about anything. Tanya B.: Okay. So I'm going to be a real challenge to you. It, they don't need talk. What do they need to see George: Me, socialising? Tanya B.: They need you to bravely tackle your anxiety. That makes you feel quite uncomfortable. I can see that. And I apologise if, have I offended you? George: No, no, no. I tried to do things. One of the dads at school, we used to meet up and have a chat in the mornings, um, but our kids played together, so that worked quite well. That's easy to do because the kids are there. Tanya B.: How often do you see him? George: We try to do it about once a month. Tanya B.: That is a good step, but once a month, for me is not even near what, what you need. We're still talking about it, but you've calmed right down. Yeah, you look much more relaxed now. Your face is softer again, you don't look so, your colours back to normal. So, you have an initial anxiety response, but if you stay with what it is, that's making you anxious, what does that tell us about the anxiety response over time? George: It goes. Tanya B.: It does go. Yeah. And what's the problem with avoidance. If we avoid or we, we quickly remove ourselves from a situation that's making us anxious? George: You don't give it the chance to, to die down so that you can see that it's not the end of the world. Tanya B.: Yeah, exactly right. The way to deal with anxiety for things that we recognise our response is catastrophic and irrational is, to expose ourself regularly to what makes us anxious. And there's two ways you do it. One is systematic desensitization where you start with little small sort of goals, and then eventually you move to something bigger. What happened with you with your experience at that food fair- George: Yeah. Tanya B.: Going on your own is, it was flooding. You haven't systematically desensitised yourself in order to build your confidence enough to know that you could be there and it would be okay. You just threw yourself into the deep end. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: So thinking about anxiety. It takes me to Basra, to Iraq, to you know, to Afghanistan. And I just wonder whether you make any link between the anxiety that you experienced during those years of service and how you have gone from being a carefree, devil may care kind of bloke to a, a guy who's really quite anxious in some ways. Do you think that comes from the anxiety you experienced in a war zone. George: There has to be some sort of link cause, cause the difference before 2007, difference after 2007, is night and day. And I, and I, and I know that now. Tanya B.: But it all sits around loss, abandonment, death. I mean this sort of extreme end of life, where everything you think is safe and you understand it, and you know it, is completely smashed to pieces. George: Mmm. Tanya B.: Did I just see you take a huge breath there? George: Yeah. Yeah. Tanya B.: Okay. I'm sorry if I triggered you, are you able to describe to me what you were feeling just in that moment. George: Anything to do with kids just, it effects me. Tanya B.: And that's the adverts and the crying is it, is it the stuff like, puppies and children and just- George: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tanya B.: It's the children in Afghanistan, particularly, isn't it, that has absolutely annihilated you. Those memories, those images. George: It was one of my first days out there, um, in 2011. So I've obviously been a few times, but one of the first days out there, they hit a school and it was just Chinook after Chinook of kids. And that was like, day one, day two, something like that. Tanya B.: Nothing can ever prepare you for that can it. George: No, nothing. It was just horrendous. One of my jobs was to document what you've dealt with. So whether it's people that have had, been exploded, someone's been shot dead. So my job was to document everything and it was after, after a week of doing it, I went to one of the bosses and said, I'm not doing it. I don't need to do this, this is, this is ridiculous. And I went to the mental health team that was over there. And I spoke to the, um, the head of mental health team who came over and pretty much chastised the boss for what he was doing, because they were forcing me to document everything. And when we had 30 kids that had been blown up, not all dead, but they want me to document each one of those injuries and- Tanya B.: So you had to go around and really look at every child and- George: No, I had to remember it. Tanya B.: And document the injury. Oh, you had to sit down and go over it again and fill out forms and describe every thing you saw? George: Yeah, and ask the guys, what did you see? What did you deal with? Um, and then I had to, there was a document that had to be made for it. I knew it wasn't right, and I knew I didn't want to do it. There was other things when someone died out there, but there was one on, my third day? He had a, um, a ceremony we'd carried him off the helicopter and he was dead. And then the next day we were finding out that he just got married, his wife was pregnant. I didn't want to know the details. I've just carried someone off. Tanya B.: So the body it's, but then it became a person with a life. George: It became a person yeah. Tanya B.: Mmm. George: There was a couple of us that didn't want to go to these ceremonies if we dealt with the person. And that became a problem because we were told that we were disrespectful. It was like a battle. I don't want to do this for a very good reason. Tanya B.: I just want to say to you that I fully respect and understand why you pushed back. What we know about trauma, the advice that we've, we've all been giving for those at the frontline, we use the same military language for health staff and mental health staff, such as myself and colleagues who've been working through the pandemic, frontline staff who are on a daily basis, dealing with mortality and stress and distress. You absolutely do not put them in a situation where they are retraumatised by having to go over the trauma that they have just lived. So actually, that's exactly what you were pushing back against What you did in terms of your suicidal depression, how you've recovered yourself from that, I think was, my understanding is you had some telephone counseling, which didn't work and it wouldn't work for a guy who's been through what you've been through. So the NHS service, I think then you didn't get a call back, I think, I think you were let down quite significantly. Weren't you for a while? George: I chased up for quite a while, um, I got nothing from the NHS, absolutely nothing. Tanya B.: So in the end you went through a charity. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: And they've helped you. George: I was financially in a very bad, bad place. Once we split, I had to quit my second job, which paid my rent and someone said contact the RAF benevolent fund, so I did. The lady who came round, saw me and saw, must've been from just speaking to me, I am not in a good place. And she gave me a charity for mental health, give me the link. Tanya B.: Which charity was that? George: Walking with the wounded. Tanya B.: Walking with the wounded, amazing. George: They got in contact with me six, seven days later. Um, and I had weekly counseling for first few months of lockdown and then we did it to every couple of weeks and it was every month. And by the end, he'd said he'd helped as much as he could which, he had, that I am on the right path, I am doing the things that I need to do. So, just continue to do them- Tanya B.: To manage the depression? George: Yeah. And we'll check in in a month. To be fair since then the depression has, I've been, uh, I've been a different person again. Tanya B.: The anxiety of the exposure to horror, particularly the horrors as they impacted on children, you are a father of two small children, I think still sits with you. That anxiety, that vulnerability, I think what you, you manage it by, you just shut it down. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: And I think in shutting it down, what you've done is you've kind of shut yourself down. It's almost like you've said in order not to be triggered into the anxiety that has never fully been processed, it's probably better if I just don't engage with life that much, because it's safer. I'm less likely to be overwhelmed, I'm less likely to get anxious, I'm less likely to meet people who might then betray my trust, we're talking about your relationship break down there. So, your way of dealing with those aspects of what you've had to deal with in your life that has left you feeling so overwhelmed, traumatised, anxious is to avoid. Is to shut down. You could say, well, he's not depressed, he's getting on with his life, that's okay. But it isn't okay is it? Because your four year old and your seven year old sit in the bath going "Is daddy really okay". So you know that that's the bit that has to be dealt with. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: The problem is what you know you need to do, and what you're being told, I wouldn't be the first person to tell you what you need to do, cause you knew that before, you know, you need to re-engage with life. You need to be able to take risks with friendships, with relationships. Every fiber of your being does not want to do it. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: And that makes me think of this, the soldier that, the well the fireman, but, you know, in, in, in, in, uh, in that service personnel capacity, being told to do things that he didn't want to do and pushing back. In Iraq and Afghanistan, I think you pushed back for the right reasons. But with respect and I have huge respect for you, you are not right to push back on what you're being advised to do. The reason you're pushing back is because you're afraid. So, if you and I can think about how you can decide to do it so that you can find the strength that you found to get yourself out of the suicidal depression you were in, you can find that same strength to combat this fear, you'll smash it. So, what do you think would help you look at why you are so afraid of facing this fear? Do you think it would help to write a letter to your children? Not that you would necessarily give them now you might give it to them one day to help explain something, but write them a letter saying this is what it was like, this is why I'm afraid, but this is what I'm going to do for you. And ultimately for me, George: Yeah, maybe, maybe, it's worth a go. Tanya B.: Okay. Cup of tea? George: Yeah, Claudia W.: Tan, what an extraordinary man George is. So, it's heartbreaking to me that he's, he's not immersed in life at all, really? Apart from those children. Tanya B.: That's correct. So anxious, Claudia W.: So anxious, but battled and won against, as you say, severe depression. Tanya B.: That's correct, yes. It feels like I've, I've had the, I'd say immense privilege of meeting this extraordinary man, halfway through his mental health recovery journey. His social anxiety, his relationship anxiety is, is the big, big challenge for him now. Claudia W.: Anyone listening will be appalled about the lack of care these men and women have had. How are these people not having more help? Tanya B.: People such as George and his colleagues who have selflessly given their lives, literally for some people and, you know, symbolically for others, uh, for all of us in terms of, you know, what they do, you know, in terms of war and, uh, and, and all the other horrific things that they are all trained to do, um, in the defense of this country and democracy and everything else, it is beyond shocking, beyond shocking. The lack of well-thought-out mental health support. Now I have to say it is much better. And I think George was saying that as well. He was saying he was talking about 2007, 2009, 2011. Things are improving in a way that they weren't good then. However, last year at the beginning of this pandemic, a friend of his, who he was on a tour of duty with took his own life. So there are people who have not been supported fully, who have now disappeared through the cracks and are still living with the scars of the unspeakable horror that they were engaged with, uh, back when they were serving for their countries. So, if we don't intervene early enough for people who have significant trauma, the knock-on long-term ripple effect is not just months or years, it can be decades, it can be for the rest of life. And for some people it can make life so unbearable that they have to choose to end it. Claudia W.: Talk to me about retraumatisation. Tanya B.: When people are in a trauma situation, doing additional discussions or asking them to think in more detail about what has been traumatic is counterproductive. People need to be able to cut off, to be able to cope with trauma. Cutting off is a psychological mechanism, dissociating ourself from the psychological impact of what we are experiencing is incredibly important in a trauma situation. Claudia W.: Do you have in your head, what he needs to do? Is it a drink with a mate? Is it, I'm fascinated by the woman who he says she's one in a million who put him up for this podcast. What does he need to do? Tanya B.: He needs a plan which he can engage with, but he can only engage with the plan, a systematic desensitisation plan, not a, go to the busiest place where you're on your own, like a big food fair. He needs, as you say, slow and steady, but regular exposure. He has had to dissociate his emotions from relationships so significantly because it was the only way he could cope with the, with the loss of life that he saw, particularly children, the loss of the relationship, and for a while, it sounded pretty bleak there, he didn't see the kids much, he was living in poverty, I mean, it was bad. He's had to, he's just cut off from all of that. So he needs a space to talk through those dark times and process them. But he also needs to know that the anxiety he feels when he starts to engage with people again is a learnt response to anxiety that has come from the trauma. He needs to push back on that, but he's got to understand how now the life he is in now, the risk in relationships is not going to destroy him in the way that it did after three tours of duty and then the breakdown of a, of, of a marriage and, and not being around his kids so much. Claudia W.: I've got big plans for George. Tanya B.: All right, I'll see you later. I'm going to go and talk to him again. If we agree that your response to trauma was to shut down and cut off because you never wanted to risk being hurt again, which is beyond understandable. But if we agree, that in the process of doing that, you have just taken it to an extreme that actually when you and I discuss it and break it down is irrationally catastrophic, how does that change your perspective on all of this? George: Whatever it is that I do the initial thing will be hard, but it'll be the second and third time, that'll be harder to make it a habit because, cause my habbit now is to lock myself away. It's making it so that my new one is to do something, whatever it be. Tanya B.: So this is the challenge that faces anybody who wants to change a set of behaviors, whether it's they want to stop using drugs or stop drinking alcohol or stop binge eating or compulsive eating and get fit and healthy. We all initially will have that anxiety and fear of change. If we plan our change carefully, if we don't set ourselves up to fail, achievable goals, but we do it regularly, we continue to expose ourselves regularly, you know, but step-by-step, to what it is we're afraid of, you know, having done that with depression, it gets easier. George: I'm running out of excuses. I'm running out of time to keep giving excuses. Tanya B.: But you are actually accountable aren't you? Who are you accountable to? George: The kids. Tanya B.: And I suggested to you that you in the break wrote something to them as a way to help you position yourself, bravely facing the challenge. Were you able to write that? George: Yeah. I wrote something down. Tanya B.: I had, oh, I can hear the breathing now, so, to take a breath. And if you, if you feel comfortable, why don't you read me what you wrote to your children? George: Yeah. Um, there was a time when daddy wasn't daddy. I was just me, I did things because I wanted to, not because I had to. I was slightly cooler, and I didn't moan if the bathroom floor was flooded after a shower. I've seen and been through some things though that have changed how I think and act then. Then you two came along out of nowhere and before I knew it, the new way I'd started to think had become normal. I want to have a little bit of the old me back because I think you'd like him. Just like you two, I get worried about doing new things and meeting new people. It's a bit scary. And even though I'll tell you both to do things that scare you, I don't actually do that with what really scares me. To get that a little bit of the old me back, I'm going to have to start instead of putting it off to another day, then hopefully you won't worry about me so much, and we'll know that I'm alright. Tanya B.: Wow, I don't often get tears in my eyes, I've been doing this job for a very long time, I'm so old. George: I do. Tanya B.: Your letter has absolutely brought tears to my eyes. What has come out of that letter? It's so important and powerful. You cannot, you cannot lose sight of it. George: I don't think the kids know me. They know some things like when I was younger, they know some of that, but they don't know how I've got here. Tanya B.: And in that letter you said "I used to be different" as well. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: And then you said, I want that, bring some of that back. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: What is that? What does that look like? George: A bit less serious around other people. Tanya B.: It's still there. Isn't it? George: Yeah, it comes out. It comes out at work, especially. Tanya B.: Do you miss that? Do you miss that part of yourself though? George: Yeah. Tanya B.: So how are you going to get that part of you back? What's the plan? George: I think one of the things that, uh, that I avoid, like the plague which I don't need to excuses to not go to the gym, I'm quite good at making excuses, cause I don't want to go, I don't like it. But, it's something I have to do anyway, cause I need to be fit and healthy. But I avoid anyone in there and I avoid things like classes. With what time I have and that sort of thing, I think that's probably going to be one of the best ways to take baby steps. Tanya B.: Okay, so we could agree that, a minimum of once a week, you'll do a class at the gym and then you'll go to the gym on other days and do your own workout. That sounds like a really good commitment. Now that the weather's getting better and things are opening up a bit more maybe you could join one of those sort of outside group exercise, bootcamp type things. They're quite cool. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: Don't know if you've ever done them, I think they're quite fun actually, yeah. George: I avoid them as well [laughs]. Tanya B.: Oh do you? Is that because you don't like the exercises, or cause you don't like the People. George: People. Tanya B.: Right. George: People. Tanya B.: So I would say shake it up a bit. You're outside, people can just chat and have a laugh, very casual, maybe just walk over and everybody gets coffee at the end. No big deal. And I think as you feel that feeling of anxiety, when people start coming to talk to you, you might just keep me and this conversation in your head and think if Tanya was here, what would she say to me? She'd say, "Hey George, what's the worst thing that could happen. This is an automatic anxiety response, and I know I'm going to get it because Tanya's explained to me why I'm getting these feelings now, it's related to the dissociation I've had to do to deal with trauma over the years, I felt anxious with Tanya, but then I felt less anxious, so I know it's just a wave. I know it's not going to kill me or anyone else. The more I expose myself to this, the smaller, the wave, the smaller, the wave, the smaller the wave until actually the sea isn't even choppy anymore, it's just calm. I'm going to make myself do a bootcamp class outside, and then I'm going to make myself stick around for at least 30 minutes". And the irony is, you are a man who would without a thought run into a burning building. George: Yeah. Yeah. Tanya B.: Can you see how irrational your fear has become? George: Yeah. Yeah, I can. Tanya B.: You're so calm now. George: I don't feel calm. Tanya B.: You don't? George: No. Tanya B.: What do you feel? Okay, you're good at masking. George: The same, I can feel myself doing-, my hands are sweaty. Tanya B.: Okay, so here's a few tips for you then. When the anxiety hits you, there are two really important things you have to do. One is you have to manage physically what it's doing to you, so you have to breathe, and you have to bring your heart rate down. Sometimes just counting your heartbeats is quite a good way of bringing it down. And the other thing you need to do is you need to manage these thoughts. Your rational brain, the bit that we've been using today, the prefrontal cortex, those bits of the brain you think, I'm going to have a chat with my anxious thoughts. I'm going to, I'm going to think about whether actually what my head is telling me now, because it's anxious, let me rationalise this. Let me ask myself a few questions. What are you afraid of? Compared to some of what you have dealt with. What's the worst thing that could happen? And once you start to talk back to your anxious self, it's a bit like how you reassure your kids when they're feeling frightened. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: Just say, hold on a second, I, you know, let's just talk it through mate, okay, I love you, Daddy's here. If you do that to yourself, you will talk yourself down. And then on the day of the class, your think, I'm going to be sick I feel so anxious, but you're going to go. And you're going to breathe and there's some great apps, there's the Headspace app, and it's got a breathing circle on it, which will help you when your breathing feels like your chest is exploding. You watch the circle goes in and out and it will just help you time your breathing, so it will regulate your breathing, you'll feel your heart rate come down. On the Headspace, there's this amazing guy, he'll talk you through anxiety. Plus this handout I'm going to send you, which comes from the NHS Scotland website, 'Mood Juice', but we'll send it to you. If you master the anxiety, because you know, the anxiety is what's going to make you avoid, but the anxiety isn't rational, so there is no risk. You don't have to run away, you're not actually in danger. If you master it through breathing and how you think, and you take that first step to the gym class, having a coffee with that dad, you'll nail this. I'd also involve your friend, that lovely woman who got you to come to me, tell her what we've said. So she becomes the person that checks in on you. Have you managed to do that this week? How are you doing? How's your anxiety? Well done you. Sometimes, if we make ourself accountable to others, it makes us do something doesn't it? George: Yeah, yeah. Tanya B.: It's just getting over those first few steps. George: Yeah. Tanya B.: It's like- George: It's that first hurdle. Tanya B.: Yeah, it's the injured footballer, it's the first few training days that are the worst, and then it gets easier. Thank you. Claudia W.: How are you? George: Yeah, I'm alright, I'm alright. Claudia W.: You are living in this area where you don't really know anyone, but you are having the most majestic time with your children and you're happy with their school. You like their teachers. I want you to try and also envisage if you can, that you've just moved there. Today marks something new, and I'm not making you rush into anything. Your friends are going to come down and they're going to stay and I'd like them to stay even though, I didn't know whether you did this before, when your kids are there, do they have kids? George: Yeah, yeah. Claudia W.: So your best friend and their kids are coming down, and your kids are going to see you having a beer, having a bit of a laugh. You get a takeaway. That will be very interesting I think for Lucy and Joe. And then you're going to go to the gym. If you don't, I'm just saying this out loud, Tan knows better than me. If you don't like the gym, don't make the gym your thing, because you already don't like it. You're putting out work, or putting on, you know, a headband. I don't even know what people go, wear to the gym, George, I'd never been. I went once. It was a disgrace. George: I know the gym. It's normal. Claudia W.: And you've already paid for it. George: But I know that they do classes and that's why I thought, well, I have to go to the gym at some point, but I have to do it. I know I have to do it. Claudia W.: You're going to be all right. You are, you are going to be all right. And it's just going to be, and it won't be overnight. Be super slow. George: Yeah. Claudia W.: And things will make you nervous, but that's all right. I also want to say to you, I just want you to have a plethora of people in your area. I've got Vicky, she doesn't live far away, but I'm immersed in my life, she's immersed in mine., I don't see her a lot, but she is 'Vicky' she's there right? She's tier one. I still need a bit of tier two, and a bit of tier three. I even need a tier five who's the bossy woman on the school WhatsApp just going, has anyone got, I mean, I'm looking for an HB pencil with a rub, I mean, what are you talking about? So expectations lowered, you might go to the gym and you might be an absolute tool. That's still amusing. That's still life. George: Yeah. Claudia W.: Do we have a plan? George: Yeah, we do, we do. Claudia W.: Tan, what a lovely man George is. I felt we got quite bossy at the end, but we've done it before. Tanya B.: So bossy. When did you last go to a gym? Claudia W.: Oh, interesting. I think I want to say nineties? Tanya B.: Because you used the word headband. Claudia W.: Well, I thought it was the right thing to do. I mean, you know, me, I don't like movement, but that's why I was trying to say to him, you don't need to go to the gym. He was like, no, I've paid for it, I'll go to the gym, I was like, "no, you mustn't, no honestly, you don't-, go to a pottery class", he was like, "No, no, quite happy to go to the gym". Tanya B.: But Claude, I just want to say to you, just to FYI you and update you that nowadays, when people go to the gym, they don't go dressed as Olivia Newton John or Bjorn Borg. Claudia W.: Interesting. I'm taking that on board. George is going to be okay is'nt he. Tanya B.: He will be fine. What a smart and amazing man. And I think he will be an inspiration to a lot of people who listen to our podcast. Claudia W.: Absolutely total privilege today. Thank you as ever. Tanya B.: Bye. Claudia W.: Just so you know, we always follow up with our guests providing useful contacts and information, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode. Please do share this podcast. You can send links direct from the app if you like. You can also follow to get new episodes as soon as they come out. Also, we would love to know what you think. Do rate comment and give us a five-star review. It all helps us to make more. And finally, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here, please email describing your issue to how@somethinelse.com, that's 'How' H-O-W, at somethinelse.com. Somethin' without the G. Next time we meet Isla. This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Grace Laiker. The producer is Selina Ream, and the executive producers are Claire Solan and Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening. .