Claudia W: What you're about to hear are the key parts of an unscripted, one time session with a real person. Names have been changed for confidentiality. Please note that this episode contains some detailed discussion around death and grief, which may not be suitable for all listeners. 
Isla: How am I meant to deal with what's left? Please tell me because I don't know. 
Claudia W: Hello, and welcome to How Did We Get Here with me Claudia Winkleman and my extraordinary friend, clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron. Each week we look at a particular issue someone might be having in their life. Tanya talks to our guests in a one-to-one session, and I listen in, asking questions at the beginning, middle and end. This time we meet Isla who is married with a six year old daughter.
Isla who is 44 has experienced an enormous amount of loss in her life. Her brother took his own life when she was 20. Her dad and sister died from cancer when she was 30. Her mum died from cancer when she was 38 and her brother had a heart attack when she was 42. Isla has three remaining brothers and struggles with the tragic losses that they all share, and with their new family dynamic. 
Isla: Like every day I still go to call her, because we were so close. Everyday I still want to tell her what I've been up to.
Claudia W: Let's go meet Isla.
Thank you so much for contacting us. Why are you here? 
Isla: I've had an awful lot of loss in my life. It's a lot to tell someone. So I always kinda want to um, protect whoever I'm telling, so this comes with a disclaimer. It's quite sad. 
Claudia W: Other people do like to help and they do like to listen, but there also might be another reason because sharing then leads to more questions. 
Isla: Yeah.
Claudia W: And sometimes you're just like, do you know what- 
Isla: It's so much.
Claudia W: - I'd like a bag of crisps and a drink and I don't want to go there. So tell me about the losses and I'm so sorry that you've had to, uh, deal with. 
Isla: The first loss that I had was when I was 20 and my older brother took his own life um, and he was twenty-five. So I'm from a big family, I'm one of seven. I have five brothers and one sister, but half of them are gone and I feel too young for it. 
Claudia W: That's just too much. When your brother passed away, did you grieve? 
Isla: Yes. As a family we grieved, but ultimately it was my sister and I who would figure it all out and find to place for it all together. So, that was the real um, first way of dealing with everybody and she was here to support all that. So we keep a place of peace with it. I find that I respected my brother's decision, if that makes sense. 
Claudia W: Totally. I feel bad that I'm asking you to tell me more, so-. 
Isla: So I after that um there was a space of about 9, 10 years, and then my sister got diagnosed with cancer. And then a couple of months later, my dad got diagnosed with cancer. So my dad and my sister were going through treatment at the same time. So my, my dad passed away in the December, and then the following year in the October, my sister passed away. 
Claudia W: I'm Sorry.
Isla: So I didn't really, we didn't even have time to think about Dad's passing, because my sister was still going through treatment and we kind of parked it together, cause we kinda thought right, we'll figure it out and once she's fine we'll, we'll have time. And then we didn't have time.
Claudia W: We should also say you're happily married. You have a lovely husband and a gorgeous little girl. Who's six. So what you've done is extraordinary by looking after the rest of your family. From listening to you, it feels so heartbreaking because, because you are now having to do it without her. 
Isla: And she was the other half of me. She was my only sister. 
Claudia W: Did you grieve her passing or were you looking after the rest of the family? How did that work? 
Isla: I think I can look back and think I was just like, numb. I just kind of parked it. The next loss I had after that was when mum passed away and my mum passed away when my wee girl was eight months old.
Claudia W: Oh my goodness. 
Isla: I really hit a brick wall. 
Claudia W: Absolutely. Because what you're describing here is just, tragedy after tragedy, if you don't mind me using that word. 
Isla: And you know, we joke about like, we have, you know, we have, we have to have that dark humour, it's going to come from somewhere, cause it's just so overwhelming. You know, as a family, we you know, we acknowledge that it is, it's just a lot.
Claudia W: I am so sorry. I'm so pleased that you're here. You're going to talk to Tan, and I'll talk to you at the end. 
Isla: Thank you.
Tanya B: It is an immense story of multiple losses. Claudia, you know, took us through the timeline, but I think it's important to say that, we didn't mention your brother who I think died last year as well, so that's when you, your final loss was last year, wasn't it with your brother? 
Isla: Yeah, he passed away last year. 
Tanya B: Can I ask you a question just up front? What is it that you want? 
Isla: Last years bereavement was just the point where I thought I just don't know where to put it all. 
Tanya B: I think you want to be able to live with the grief, the cumulative grief differently. 
Isla: Yeah, I think you're right. `Yeah. 
Tanya B: Ok. 
Isla: I have to find a different way to deal with it all because you know, censoring and protecting other people and you're blocking it off, if it's not working anymore. 
Tanya B: You gave me three phrases you said, censoring, protecting other people and shutting it off is not working anymore. Um, I don't wanna assume I understand exactly what you mean by that, so just take me through each one. When you say censoring, what do you actually mean? 
Isla: I always think of it when I meet new people or to start a new job, um, I still you know, I, still say I have five brothers and a sister, you know, I still say I'm from a big family and I wouldn't tell him straight away that half of them aren't here anymore. 
Tanya B: Yes, and the truth is you do have five brothers and a sister. 
Isla: I do- 
Tanya B: But I suppose that's exactly, and they are, and always will be the first great loves of your life, and I imagine this huge, happy family all knocking about together, and as I just say those words, I can see the tears just come to you, you miss that so much. You just miss- 
Isla: So much. 
Tanya B: Absolutely. But you said something a second ago and I just wanted to ask you a bit more about that. You said, in terms of censoring, I don't want to break people's hearts. 
Isla: Yes.
Tanya B: There's something about the pain that you are obviously carrying about all these losses and your sort of sense that it's so overwhelming for you, that you just don't want other people to be, would burdened be the right word? 
Isla: I do it in drip feeds just to kinda carefully do it um. 
Tanya B: But that means you're always having to manage how you feel. There's no sense that you can just go here it is. 
Isla: Definitely, and as a family actually, my brothers and I are really good at talking about our feelings, but actually I will also censor with them because I don't want to let them know, you know, that most days, I still you know, really struggle. 
Tanya B: How does it affect you every day? What, what, what are you describing? 
Isla: When I say that I probably haven't told them that the loss of my sister every day as though I go to call her, you know, every day, because we were so close. Everyday I still want to tell her what I'd been up to, I want to tell her about my wee girls. 
Tanya B: And no one can replace her. 
Isla: No, and I feel really bad when I say that because I've got great friends and females in my life.
Tanya B: Do you ever feel angry? Do you ever feel sort of the, understandable lot's of people do that sort of 'why me, why us, why this family'. 
Isla: We're a big Catholic family, you know, our teaching is and our faith is based around acceptance. The anger just doesn't work for me. You know, like, my brothers have talked about how they felt angry at times and I just, I just think it was really negative to go down that route because that's not gonna change anything.
Tanya B: If I lose people I love and then become angry with the world, and I'm still angry with the world and I remain angry with the world, yeah, I agree with you that that's not healthy. But, you could argue that your rationalisation of feeling angry is denying you one stage of the grief process. You're denying yourself. You're not giving yourself permission. I would say to you is quite healthy as, as a part of a process. There's something here about how you are trying to manage and keep a lid on. You're nodding, so I'll stop talking. Tell me what-. 
Isla: Um, it is that constant management of keeping a lid on it. Because what, what, what happens if that lid comes off? Surely I'm just going to be swamped. 
Tanya B: Yeah. There's that story isn't there about the little boy who has his finger in the hole in the dam. You take your finger out and the water just comes gushing through. It, it's that sort of sense that you're holding back a tsunami that if you let it in, you will drown.
Isla: I absolutely know that it will ground me. 
Claudia W: I'm just going to stop the tape and ask Tan a question. How has Isla been getting up in the morning and walking around? I, it's amazing to me. 
Tanya B: Are you, are you asking me, how has she not becoming depressed? 
Claudia W: I wasn't even asking that. I was asking, how is she functioning?
Tanya B: In my world, that would be, yeah, how is she not depressed, because depression stops you functioning. Yeah, I think that's a good question because I think based on what we know has happened to her, um, she would be at risk of becoming depressed. I think because she's, she is strong, and I think because she's very focused on the living aspects of her life that are really meaningful, her daughter clearly, um, her husband, and her job and friends and so on. But the problem is that she isn't focused enough on herself and what she needs to do, and that's not because she doesn't know what she needs to do, because I think she does, she's super smart, really psychologically minded. I just think she's afraid. 
Claudia W: Okay, let's get back to the chat. 
Tanya B: What support have you had? I mean, have you ever seen anyone or had a discussion with, uh, someone like me or a bereavement counselor or anything like that. 
Isla: There was two occasions I've tried it, the first time the person was just not dealing with what I was saying, and when I tried it again at was much more, I definitely felt that the person was much more present, but it wasn't collaborative. It was just someone listening and I wasn't getting anything back. 
Tanya B: I think what you're looking for, which makes a lot of sense is you're looking for, uh, a sort of practical sort of solution focused way. 
Isla: Yes, I am all about solutions. 
Tanya B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you are an extraordinary woman because I think that's what you do really well. I think at the moment you don't think you're doing it very well, because I think you are just at an emotional and psychological level, exhausted. And I do understand that, I, I think what you're saying, I really miss my sister. If she was here, like we did for our first brother who took his life when he was 25, and, and, and you were 20, which is shocking and terrible and sad and just awful. But you and your sister together found a way through it, and you were able to rationalise it to a point where, basically what you're saying is, we learnt to live with it. 
Isla: We did yeah. 
Tanya B: Yeah. Yeah.
Isla: I think, I think, I'm not really. It's an awful way to live, without my sister.
Tanya B: It's your sister. This is what I was going to say to you. I'm not denying that the multiple losses have not been horrendous. For me, the reason you don't know, just to quote you again, I can't find a place for it anymore is because the one thing I think you do need to be able to do is the thing you don't want to do. Do you have a sense of what I mean? 
Isla: Yeah. 
Tanya B: What do you think? Oh, I'm sorry. You're so distressed. I'm really sorry, 
Isla: It's ok, um. I think, you know, it just comes back to my sister. It comes back to that, all, isn't it. I don't know if I have dealt with it. 
Tanya B: And I think you need to just grieve. 
Isla: How am I meant to deal with it? Please tell me cause I don't know. 
Tanya B: As you are with me now, you are so frightened of really accessing the pain of the loss of her, your sister, you said earlier, I just, I can't, I can't go there, I can't go to the emotion because I'll drown, I'll drown, I'll literally drown. You won't drown. We just need together to think about the right place for you to do that and how you do it with someone who can, step by step, let you slowly dip your toe and then a bit more into the water of the emotional pain. I think you're exhausted Isla because it's the emotional pain that you're still holding on to because you won't allow it, to, to be anywhere. You censor with people, you don't tell people, you don't, you say I protect people, which is interesting to me because it, in a sense, you're saying I'm protecting them from, from the, the horror and the pain of, of, of, of my story. What, really what you're talking about is protecting yourself from that.
Isla: Protecting myself yeah. Because even with (mumbled) and I start talking about it, then it just-. 
Tanya B: You're terrified. You're terrified. You did an action. Almost like a sort of stream of a vomit in a sense is-. 
Isla: It's true, it will just come out, and it's, um, there is that worry, that am I doing this with the right person? Are they going to be able to, you know, so there's. I want to let it out, but who to let it out to, because the majority of the people around me have got that same pain. So I-.
Tanya B: You don't have to think about people, you know, and I think that's part of the issue. You spend a lot of time thinking about everybody else. 
Isla: Yeah, I think. Sorry. 
Tanya B: Just cry. Don't apologise. It's okay. Grief is the price we pay for love. You've lost one of your greatest loves your sister. 
Isla: She was. 
Tanya B: She really was. She got you, you got her. 
Isla: She was just-. 
Tanya B: And I think she was the only person really who could have helped you through this pain and tragically she's the one the pain is about, and she's not here to help you with it. And that for you is why you're so stuck. Tell me about her. 
Isla: She was smart and funny and gorgeous. 
Tanya B: I think you feel so cheated. 
Isla: It isn't fair. 
Tanya B: It's not fair. And I'm so glad you've said that because I think you're beginning to acknowledge the key issue here that you won't let yourself feel. I think you feel cheated. I think you feel angry. I think you feel it's not fair other people's families, you know, they somehow don't have to go through what we've gone through, and my sister, she was my best friend, it was an amazing relationship, why couldn't I have had that. But I don't think you allow yourself to feel those feelings because you-. 
Isla: Because where does it go. 
Tanya B: What you fear is if you, if you open that box, you'll never be able to close it down again. I think what I'm saying to you is if you open that box with support, and slowly look through it and take out what needs to be taken out and hold it and look at it and experience it and feel it. And it will be painful. Beyond painful. It's a process you need to go through, but it, it has a beginning, it has a middle and it has an end. Fundamentally you have what's called bereavement overload. It's a actual, psychological, recognised condition. It was described over 30 years ago by a psychologist. It's seen a lot in people who do jobs like mine. It's also called cumulative grief. So this isn't just a straightforward grief reaction. This is something much more complicated and it's something that's recognised. So the first thing I want to say to you is what you are feeling and experiencing is a thing, right? Something that people, and you look relieved for me to say that, and it is very obviously difficult for frontline workers, but for somebody like you, it has an another level because you're dealing with the deaths of people that you were so in love with, particularly your sister.
It's not about solution now. It's about sitting back in the room with that second bereavement counselor who I think was probably doing the right thing and she was giving you space to talk. And then with her to experience that pain. And I think the reason you were frustrated with that process is because you don't want to go there. You want to think your way around it, but you don't want to feel it. 
Isla: I think that's it. I've been guilty of not allowing myself to feel all the feelings, you know and-. 
Tanya B: Why guilty? I think you've been afraid and I understand it. And I think one of the reasons you're afraid is because the only person I think you truly feel you could have done that with, and you probably did do that with when your first brother died when you were 20 and he was 25 and he took his life, is your sister. 
Isla: Yeah. 
Tanya B: And I don't think with any of the other bereavements, you've done it since, because even when your father died, your sister was still alive, she was undergoing cancer treatment. And I think you said we sort of put it on hold a bit because we were all guns blazing to get our sister well through the treatment, and, and then when I think when she went, I think you were then absolutely screwed because the only person who you allow to see that emotional part of you, has gone. 
Isla: Yeah. 
Tanya B: What's it like crying like this. 
Isla: It's exhausting. 
Tanya B: Do you understand that I am suggesting to you that this is what you need to do. 
Isla: Where does it stop? 
Tanya B: It stops in the sense that it changes. You tell me? It's interesting, you did this with your sister, with your brother who took his life, but I guess you weren't in that place when you first found out that he'd taken his life. I guess you and your sister had to go through a process together, to get to the point of what fundamentally is called acceptance. And I think you and your sister would have got to that place together through a lot of talking and a lot of thinking and a lot of, you know, just processing the shock of what has happened, but I suspect you and she did an awful lot of crying. 
Isla: Yeah, I probably forget about that, you know, I just think about you know, the practical stuff that we work on together and suffering. 
Tanya B: You know when it stops because you know, it is a process cause you did that with your brother. It, it looks like I've just said something that's kind of, it's like a light has gone on. Tell me what you've suddenly realised? 
Isla: I'm stronger than I think I am. 
Tanya B: Emotionally, absolutely. And so are other people. 
Isla: I know. 
Tanya B: And, you know, what, if you find someone in your life who you allow into your heart in the same way as your sister was there, that's not betraying your sister, but I think there's a part of you that feels like no one ever can be there, so therefore you're not really gonna let anyone in. However, she's not here anymore, and you do need people who can connect with you emotionally in a way that you can emotionally process the ups and downs of life, as well as the huge aspects of life. And you know, that second bereavement counselor you saw, I think they were probably pretty good. I don't think it was them that was the problem. In the sense, you just pointed to yourself. 
Isla: Yeah. 
Tanya B: Why did you do-. 
Isla: I know, because it was me, yeah, I was like, like you've said, I was wanting to have that same kinda process I had with my sister, that same-. Which you know, it's not, it's not going to be like that even-. 
Tanya B: I think she sat there not saying very much because she was giving you your space to express how you felt. I think that felt terrifying to you. And I think solutions are very containing aren't they. It's like, I don't have to look at the pain square in the face because, okay, I've got a way of dealing with it. You have to emotionally process the loss of your sister, so you can say goodbye. You've not said goodbye to her. One thing you could do in the break, you could, but only if you feel able, you could share with your sister, what you have learned today. You look scared. 
Isla: I used to write um, every day and then I stopped when my sister passed away. 
Tanya B: Writing really helps. 
Isla: I know. 
Tanya B: What's the worst thing that would happen if you wrote to your sister 'Hey, I've been talking to Tanya Byron today. This is what I've worked out. What do you think?'.
Isla: I know that I thought that's one thing that I thought I'd be really good at when my sister passed away, I thought it would talk to her all the time-. 
Tanya B: Well yeah but you can. No, you don't because you're not allowing yourself because of the pain. But if I reassure you that the pain you're going to feel writing that letter, I will help you deal with when you come back after to the break.
Isla: Okay. 
Tanya B: See how you feel. If it feels too much, don't do it. See how you feel. 
Isla: I will.
Tanya B: I could see that you were struggling to ask for more information. 
Claudia W: I felt bad about it. 
Tanya B: Yeah, you were really conscious of the overload weren't you? 
Claudia W: Yes, because it's just, it's too much for anyone to bear. I can't believe what she's been through. 
Tanya B: And, and that's, I think really the sort of nub of it is this is, it's just almost incomprehensible. Not just for people like Isla who basically, so she was 20 when her first brother died, he took his life and she's now 44, so this is like 24 years of regular profound loss. 
Claudia W: Yeah. 
Tanya B: Bereavement overload is something that's been talked about, I suppose, really, as a concept in the last 30 years. The psychologist called Robert Kastenbaum, don't know how I remembered that, but anyway, that's his name. He first described it over 30 years ago and it's often used really in the context of, um, people who are frontline, whether it's, you know, people in on the battlefield or it's very relevant now with people on the frontline, in the pandemic, so healthcare workers, um, et cetera. People who are just dealing with multiple losses on a daily basis as, as we know has been happening, and we know that staff in ICU, et cetera, are just burnt out. I mean, they're overloaded you know. And it's different to the sort of normal bereavement in the sense that you don't really have time to take your breath before then there's another. And you can see that interestingly with Isla, that the first bereavement, which was the loss of her brother when she was 20, and he was 25, the brother that took his own life. She has actually grieved that one well, and she grieved it well with her sister. She talked about accepting the decision he made and sort of being, I think she said, um, you know, we've, we've found peace with, with, with that and with his, his death. And that's very complicated when someone takes their own life. Um, but then when it was her father, that, then she couldn't grieve because she was getting her sister through her cancer treatment, and then she lost her sister who I think is the core of this for her, her best friend. And then she's becoming a mother and then not long after she becomes a mother, she loses her mother. I mean, I can understand why last year when her, one of her other brothers died, she hit, I think she hit the wall. It's just like enough already. So it's cumulative, it's endless, and there's no time to pick yourself up-. 
Claudia W: Or to process. 
Tanya B: Before you're knocked over again. 
Claudia W: I wanted to also ask you, and I don't know whether this is relevant, but I found the conversation about anger so interesting. And because she said, I just can't, I can't. Because anybody else who you spoke to, if you told them Isla's story, I mean, that's, it's so unfair. I mean, she said unfair, but she wouldn't get angry. Talk to me about the stages of grief because there is shock, denial, and then I think there's anger. 
Tanya B: Yeah, so this is the sort of model of stages of grief. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross is the person that's written about this and it's, it's, it's widely talked about and it's, it's helpful in the sense that it provides a framework for people to understand that grief is complex and that it's not one straightforward emotion of sadness. There are lots of different emotional stages that people go through. What people shouldn't do is look at the, the framework of, of grief that, I mean, Kubler-Ross, she never meant for it to be used in this way, but sometimes people can get a bit confused and think, oh, there are these different stages and you just go through one and then you go through the other and then you go through that. It doesn't really work like that. But what it does do is it explains that there are many different feelings and it's helpful because people can feel very angry when they are bereaved. Anger, at the person that they've lost, why did you leave me? But it's a very uncomfortable feeling. And Isla sort of showed that didn't she, um, said it's not productive and it doesn't help, and what do you achieve with that? And, you know, I've said to my brothers, it's not helpful and so on and so forth, but actually it is, uh, it, it, it, it's a real feeling. And it's interesting, you feel angry when you hear her story. You think-. 
Claudia W: I'm angry this happened to her. 
Tanya B: Yes. 
Claudia W: I'm just angry. 
Tanya B: One bereavement, two bereavement, maybe three, but I mean, we're talking like endless one after the other. And I think by telling herself she shouldn't feel angry, she's denying herself a part of the emotional processing journey that we all know, we all need to go through when we're grieving. And one minute we can be in shock, the next minute we can be in denial, the next minute we can feel so depressed we can't get out of bed in the morning. The next day we can just be road raging because we're so angry and that's how grief works. And in a sense, knowing that is quite helpful because at least it normalises an experience, but because we don't really talk about death very much as a culture, um, the conversations aren't open enough for people to often feel okay with what they're experiencing.
Claudia W: What was interesting just before you went to the break is, uh, you said, look, you just write down how you think this has gone, or you can write to your sister. And she admitted, she used to write all the time and then stop. Do you think she'll be able to do it? 
Tanya B: Yeah, and I'm going to talk to her more about it in the second half, because what she's effectively done is she's not allowed herself to create and develop her ongoing relationship with her sister who is not physically here, but emotionally, spiritually, you know, psychologically, she's still very, very present for Isla, but Isla's too afraid to go there. And I think also people often in my experience, will be afraid to continue to communicate with the person they've lost because they feel like then they have to acknowledge they're not here anymore, because they have to communicate with them differently, and they don't want to acknowledge that. So it's a way of putting off accepting what feels totally unacceptable. So my task really now, and we'll see whether she's been able to write to her sister cause I could see she felt anxious when I suggested that. My task now is to help her recognise that there is strength in facing the pain. 
Claudia W: Okay. I will disappear.
Tanya B: I mean, the way you have got through life since you were 20 with bereavement, after bereavement, after bereavement, of the closest people to you. You do an important job. You're, um, married to a man who has a job that's big and he has to work very hard. You're raising your beautiful child together. You're an incredible woman. You are living life. This would have already broken a lot of people. You've kept going. But the last bit of this marathon is the bit, you're the most afraid of. What will break you is not doing this last bit. Which is to allow yourself to process the emotion, particularly around the loss of your sister, who was also your best friend. Does it make sense? 
Isla: It does. 
Tanya B: What did you do in the break? Did you, did you manage to write? 
Isla: I wrote just a very quick thing. 
Tanya B: Are you comfortable to read to me what you've written? 
Isla: Yes, I can't even remember what you asked me to write, but I-. 
Tanya B: It doesn't matter. I just want to hear what you wrote. 
Isla: Okay. So I wrote, I've put off writing to you because I still can't believe you're not here. I miss you so much. It's too much to bear without you. I sometimes wonder how you would have coped without me and I know that you'd be better all of this. Stronger, wiser, funnier. I want to tell you everything. I'm not sure I can yet, but I think this is a start. 
Tanya B: Wow. You didn't think you could write that. 
Isla: I've never done it. I've never been able to. I've not even, even been to leave flowers at her grave. I can't even write her a card. I can't do that. I've not been able to do that. 
Tanya B: So, so you've stopped having a connection with her really? Haven't you? Because it's too painful. 
Isla: Yeah. 
Tanya B: But you've just done that, which is extraordinary. More than I thought maybe you would be able to do. I'm so proud of you and, um, are you broken now? 
Isla: [laughs] No.
Tanya B: You are actually very calm aren't you. You're crying, really crying, but you're not falling apart, are you? 
Isla: No. 
Tanya B: So what does that tell you about a process of reconnecting with your sister in order to say goodbye to her.
Isla: If you do it, and as scary as it is, I can do it and I need to do it. 
Tanya B: And why do you need to do it do you think? 
Isla: I need to move on. 
Tanya B: And what does that mean to you? 
Isla: It means that I probably have to really, truly acknowledge that she's not here. And it means it might help with um, deal with those feelings of being overwhelmed and exhausted. And I'm ready to stop feeling that. 
Tanya B: You are.
Isla: Yeah. 
Tanya B: But if she was here listening, to this conversation, what would she say to you? Do you have a sense of how she would hear this conversation? What she would say to you?
Isla: I think she'd be, I think should be proud off me. 
Tanya B: Yeah, I do too. 
Isla: And I think she would help me feel empowered to do what I need, for me. 
Tanya B: Is there anybody in particular or any sort of friends in particular who occasionally will let you know that they think maybe there's some emotion there that you're not sharing. 
Isla: Yeah, I think when my brother passed away last year, I definitely hit a brick wall like of this-. That was the moment I realised that it's too much. What am I going to do with this? It's just not, not another one. I remember that friend saying at the time, I remember saying to her, how can I talk about this? And she said to me you know, well today I can you know, I can listen. I might not always be able to, but that's what friends. Do they take turns. You know, I can deal with that today, and that's ok. 
Tanya B: And then what did you do? 
Isla: I think I just, I was just, at that point, it was so raw that I just went back to my old you know, barriers.
Tanya B: But she sounds like a good person. 
Isla: Yeah. 
Tanya B: I prescribe her to you. Do you think you could go back to some kind of bereavement counseling, but maybe think about it a bit differently. 
Isla: When you spoke about the counseling that I received in the past, you know, I guess I had kinda wrote it off as just a concentrated listening session. As you spoke about it made me realise that actually, that, that person was giving me space that I didn't have at that time. 
Tanya B: Yeah, and I think it was space that felt quite threatening to you because it was space where you could have just cried for 50 minutes. 
Isla: I know. 
Tanya B: Or, and maybe not said very much, but just cried. And I think you would sort of think, well, that's ridiculous, how's that going to help? What if I can't then stop crying and I just come, and then I just become a complete mess because I've got to go and pick my daughter up from school, whatever, whatever. I can imagine, where you would place that, and I get why you would think that. You need someone who would explain to you that they understand the fear that you have, but also someone that you felt at the end of it all would be able to help you feel put back together enough to walk out of the room, and go and be mummy and wife and friend and worker and colleague and so on. 
Isla: That is, that is really interesting that phrase that putting, helping me put myself back together. I think that's, I think that is really important. 
Tanya B: But that's what people like me do. So our training isn't just to sit there with a box of tissues, going go on then, tell me how you feel, have a good cry and I'll see you next week. Our training is to manage it and pace it. 
Yeah, you're crying and you're smiling as well, why? You look relieved. 
Isla: It feels like you're really important key for me, you know, just to, to, to realise that I'm not going to be able to deal with it unless I learn myself to start connecting with, my own pain and in turn reconnecting with her. 
Tanya B: So sometimes people in a position like yours, what we suggest is every day, or every other day, or three times a week, or whenever it feels right for you. Carve out somewhere between five and 15 minutes where you can be on your own, in a space with a journal and a pen and your sister. Lots of people will have a photo there of the person they've lost and then just journal. 
Isla: Yeah. 
Tanya B: You could say, I miss you so much, I feel like I can't breathe and it could be a journal entry like that. Or you could say, oh, I'm going to tell you what your beautiful niece did today, but set an alarm on your phone. 
Isla: Okay. 
Tanya B: Okay. And have a big box of tissues there, and if you sit there and write a few words and sob for 10 minutes, and then the alarm goes off, you then switch off your alarm, wipe your face, take some breaths, do a grounding exercise. Just look around the room, notice five things you can see, what are four things you can hear, three things you can touch, two things you can smell, and then a big breath in and a big breath out. Splash your face with cold water and then rejoin the world. And what you're doing is you're giving yourself a concentrated space, but with a very clear end. 
Isla: Yeah. 
Tanya B: And it really works. 
Isla: I can see that working for me. I know that it won't overwhelm me. 
Tanya B: You're quite an incredible woman, and I feel it's been a privilege doing this with you today, thank you. 
Isla: Thank you. It's just been so . Helpful.
Claudia W: How are you? 
Isla: I feel about a stone lighter. 
Claudia W: Good. 
Isla: Um, just helping me connect, de-tangle it all a little bit. 
Claudia W: How are you, if something, if they need you, what kind of a person that you are? What kind of a friend? 
Isla: Yeah, I'm there. 
Claudia W: I mean. 
Isla: Yeah, I know. 
Claudia W: People will want to help you, or if somebody has a breakup, or if somebody, you're there. And the other thing is when you reach out to this person, you don't need to also just tell them everything. Sometimes it can just be, I really miss my sister today. Do you see what I mean? 
Isla: Yeah. I, I think that's what, um, [mumbles] it's just not, um, just thinking it's a whole big thing. 
Claudia W: And it might not be the obvious one. It might not be the one who you speak to all the time. It just might be somebody who you, you think you could rely on? 
Isla: I think that's it. I think it's maybe not the obvious one, um, and I know that I could like say, call that person up at anytime of day. And I have to get better at making that call. 
Claudia W: It's a start, and it's an acknowledgement also that, I understand the anger thing, but what you've been through is too much. So you need to acknowledge that and your friends know, and you let them in and you have a little chat with your sister. I'd like you to have a margarita, not now, it's too early. Is that all right? 
Isla: Yeah, thank you.
Claudia W: Like a massive golden key. When you said if your sister was here, what would she say? I mean, that was it. That was it. That was the key going in. 
Tanya B: Because I think she had forgotten that the relationship with her sister is still there, even though her sister's not still here. And I think reminding her that the strength, and the wisdom that her sister has given her over the years means that she knows what her sister would say and how her sister would support her. So she can, she can hold onto that and use that as part of her strength. 
Claudia W: I want her to rely on people, that's all, you know, because as we've said, a million times in this podcast, that's what friends do for each other, and they enjoy doing it. I felt that she was lonely in her grief and I couldn't bear that. 
Tanya B: Doesn't it feel like that now that does it? 
Claudia W: No. No, no. Mainly because we're moving in with her. 
Tanya B: Um, just give me a brief overview of your plan? 
Claudia W: Alright, first in kettle on, toast down, this is not a time for a kale smoothie. Then we send off her little daughter to go and play with a friend. The husband's there, and we invite at least two or three women, we sit around in a circle, not on the floor, we're not animals. And we work out how to look after Isla. This wonderful person in the community who just needs some scaffolding. And at some point the house is going to be fine. She's going to be all right. We'll take the scaffolding away. I will be wearing a high vis jacket. 
Tanya B: Will you? And a hard hat. 
Claudia W: Yeah. 
Tanya B: I hope that I've done a good enough job with Isla today that she doesn't need to experience that. 
Claudia W: She won't. I don't think it would also help. No, she'll be all right. And we'll stay in touch with her. 
Tanya B: Well, we're done darling. 
Claudia W: We're done.
Tanya B: I'll see you see you next week. Bye.
Claudia W: Just so, you know, we always follow up with our guests providing useful contacts and information. Some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode. Please do share this podcast, you can send links direct from the app if you like. You can also follow to get new . Episodes as soon as they come out.
Also, we would love to know what you think. Do rate, comment, give us a five-star review. It all helps us to make more. And finally, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here, please email describing your issue to how@somethinelse.com that's how H O W @somethinelse.com. Somethin' without the G. 
Next time we meet Bea. 
Bea: Jesus Christ.
Tanya B: Why'd you say Jesus Christ?
Bea: It's so completely obvious now that you say it, and at the same time, yeah, it's like a revelation. 
Claudia W: This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Grace Laiker. The producer is Selina Ream, and the executive producers are Claire Solan and Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman.
Thank you so much listening.