Claudia: Please note that this episode contains some emotional content adult issues and strong language, which may not be suitable for all listeners. What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one-time unscripted session with a real person whose name has been changed for confidentiality. 
Asha: How can there be physical attraction, sexual attraction when you're just like feeling high anxiety all the time. 
C: This is How Did We Get Here? with me, Claudia Winkleman and my brilliant friend, clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron. We're looking at some of the challenges people are facing in their daily lives. Whilst Tan talks, I listen in and ask questions in the break and at the end. For safety during these challenging times, we're recording on video link so please do forgive any glitches in sound. This time we meet Asha. Who's 34 years old. Asha says she suffers a numbness when it comes to sex and intimacy, she wonders whether she finds it hard to get close to a man as a result of her childhood. Asha’s dad died when her mother was pregnant with her naturally her whole family struggled, particularly her brother who remained angry and volatile for many years.
A: Every man I’m like looking for reasons for them to be like him. And I try and avoid that. 
C: Let's go and meet Asha. 
C: How are you?
A: I'm good. How are you? 
C: All right. Thank you so much for joining us. Asha why do you want to talk to Tan?
A: I just have a real stressful time when it comes to relationships with men and probably actually relationships generally when it comes to vulnerability and intimacy and stuff like that with anyone, but specifically men, the past couple of years, I've really dug into like the why. Um, I think when you get into your thirties, you start doing that and now I'm like, oh, maybe it's bigger than just, I haven't met the right person type of thing. 
C: Take me back to when let's say when you're 17, 18, uh, people are flirting with boys. Did you. Fancy boys. Did you think, oh, I might go to the cinema and he might hold my hand.
A: No, exactly. Yeah. So that's what I mean. So I've always felt a bit different. Part of that is because I was like the only one of like two Indian girls in the school. No boys were really looking at me like that anyway, but yeah, in terms of like my feelings towards boys, like, no, I just felt like why is everyone so boy crazy around me.
C: Did you fancy boys? 
A: You know, maybe when I was younger, I was more open to it to be fair. So yeah, I probably did have the odd crush, but like really rarely. And there was nothing like internally that was going on, like sparks and fireworks. It was more, just a little bit of feeling flattered, I guess.
C: If he said. Can I take you for dinner? Can we have a drink? Would you run from that? Or would you go, oh, okay. 
A: So the first date is actually when I'm the most, probably relaxed. It’s when it starts being like second date, third date. It, oh God. What's going to happen from here. I think that's where my anxiety sort of kicks it up a notch.
C: Have you ever got to like third date world? 
A: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think the longest I've been with a guy is probably like five to six months.
C: These five month relationships. Have you, have you loved these men?
A: No. 
C: When friends of yours around you have been in long-term relationships or they've got married, they've had children. Do you, do you see that and go, I could never do that. 
A: Interestingly yeah I do covet that like I do, like in my, especially in my late twenties, but again, I don't think that's. Me really wanting those things. I think it's one, a cultural expectation being Indian, you know, that's what you're expected to do. And a societal expectation, you know, even British society makes you feel like you have to get married and have kids. I think that pressure got to me and I did feel like that actually though, in the last couple of years, I have quite a nice life. And I'm not that bothered about marriage and kids now, but yeah, it's still something that I, I want to look into just for me, you know, because I think it does even though I’m talking about men, I think it does hinder all relationships.
C: I was about to ask about your friendships with women and how close you allow yourself. If you'd like to get to a woman.
A: I have a lot of friends and I find it really, really easy to build rapport with people and particularly women. But I, you know, I don't share, like I don't really want to cry in front of my friends, you know? I have friends who are like, who will ring me in tears. You know, when something's happening, I would never. Ever do that to them, you know? And my friends will be like, I'll tell them something, you know, retrospectively. And they'll be like, why didn't you just ring us when it was happening? You know, I have this weird, independent self resilience about me, where it's like, well, I'll just deal with it. What are you going to tell me that I can't tell myself. 
C: You said that you have a, I think you used the word backstory. Can you tell me a bit about your childhood, if you don't mind? 
A: So my dad passed away when my mom was pregnant with me. So she, she would have only been, um, like probably, I don't know, like a month pregnant or something. So they, she didn't know. Um, so then he died quite young. So I have a older brother and sister. Because, you know, they both came from India obviously and he would work and he would do all that kind of stuff. She didn't work. She was a housewife. She all of a sudden had to learn how to drive, had to learn how to had to get a job, had to learn how to like manage a house, pay bills in all these things, quite a, quite a lot to deal with at once.
C: It’s huge yeah.
A: So I look back at that time and I think, you know, she probably wasn't the most present parent. Um, and my sister probably did kind of look after me more than a sibling should and my brother was quite badly affected by the death. Um, so he went completely off the rails and like him and my mom had a very like…
C: tempestuous….
A: Yeah. Relationship where it was like arguments and shouting throughout my life. So then my brother is very, when I was younger was, um, he used to dote on me like a lot, like he used to kiss me and grab me and hug me. And I was always pushing him away because. He was so horrible to my mother. I can't feel affectionate towards you because I've seen you shouting at my mom and stuff. And then the other part of it is that I didn't really know he was dead until I was probably, I think someone at school told me, um, cause they, their mom knew my mom or something and we had this huge photo in our house of me and him, me as a baby, him as him in the background, it was only later on like when I was much older, probably like. Eight or something. I don't know that, um, a family member was like, oh, isn't it amazing how they've put him in the background of the photo, you know? And then I was like, oh, so we haven't even met, which was like quite devastating. I mean, of course I could have just asked my mom, but we just don't talk about it 
C: For you to find out that your father had died from a friend at school is quite heartbreaking.
A: Indian culture. They're quite bad at dealing. They're not the best at dealing with, um, you know, bereavement and they kind of patronize children in that they don't feel like they deserve the truth or that they can handle the truth. So it wouldn't have been a big thing for them to have thought, oh, I'll just tell her he’s away on business or something. Like they would've just been like whatever. And then also I think the late eighties just didn't deal with bereavement very well in general. I think like my brother didn't get any like counseling at school, you know, they didn't get anything either. 
C: Yeah. Um, well we're so pleased you've come in thank you so much and here’s Tan.
A: Thank you.
A: Hello.
Tanya: How are you? 
A: I'm okay. I'm a bit scared
T: Tell me first of all what are you scared of? Because I don't want you to be scared.
A: Well I think this whole thing is about me not being vulnerable and being scared of that. And this is a vulnerable situation so I think I get nervous about being emotional in front of people.
T: You describe yourself as someone who really struggles to be open with people. We're doing season three now, out of all of the seasons we've done, I think you have probably given the most articulate first description 
A: I live alone and with COVID as well. Like it's given me a massive opportunity, I think, to like, do that self reflection piece. I'm good at the words about it, I'm just not good at connecting. That to me and helping myself, you know, I can kind of explain it well to others. It's not like my behavior’s then changing from it. Like I'm aware of it yet I'm still not there. 
T: Where is there, what are you sort of visualizing in terms of where do you want to get to?
A: I think I would love to have a fulfilling relationship with a man where I feel attracted to them and I feel like I could be vulnerable. Because when I date men, I find fault in every single thing that they do. You know, my brain is like on the defense. I'm constantly picking them apart 
T: What you’re saying is you will literally find any reason to give yourself permission to walk away. This is really about avoidance, isn't it? 
A: Yes. 
T: I mean, they could be the most beautiful kind charming man on the planet. 
A’ Yeah. 
T: But there's something about their ear lobes you don't like.
A: Exactly. 
T: Right. Okay. I get it. I think what you said, I just want to check that I heard you correctly is you do want to have a loving, fulfilling, Fully intimate relationship with a male partner.
A: I do want that. And I think because if I had that, it would mean that I've dealt with all these other demons and all my issues. 
T: Right. Just before we carry on exploring that the other alternative is that it's got nothing to do with demons that you may be a sexual. Have you thought about that? Have you considered that?
A: Yeah, I have. And I think I would accept that. If those other things hadn't have happened. If I was just like born with a healthy male, male, female relationship to kind of, you know, mirror and look at. I feel like if I found out the reasons for the anxiety or tackle the anxiety, it would open me up to the other feelings that are probably there, but that just aren't kind of coming out.
T: This might feel slightly more uncomfortable, but I am. Just want to dig very briefly into the five or six months relationship. Did that relationship get to the point of sexual intimacy? 
A: No. 
T: Any kind of sexual intimacy. So did you hold hands, did you kiss each other?
A: Yeah, yeah.
T: And did you find that pleasurable sexually pleasurable? Did you enjoy it? 
A: I think I enjoyed it in the beginning when it was like not going to lead to anything, more kind of thing. And then. As I started to get closer to, you know, as we were together longer, I then became quite anxious about it. 
T: And what were you anxious about? 
A: Eventually this is going to have to turn into, you know, actual sex and I don't want that, or I don't feel like ready for that. Um, so my brain is already leaping into the future and I'm not really even enjoying the moment. 
T: And when you think about sex, do you imagine it. In a way that feels pleasurable to you, or do you imagine it in a way that makes you just feel kind of cringe and uncomfortable and…
A: Cringe and uncomfortable
T: And what are you imagining? Are you imagining you in that scenario and how people may look at your body or may perceive you or, or that sort of thing? 
A: Yeah. Well, I have had sex obviously, um, and I felt that cringe and uncomfortable. Yeah. It's their perception of me. How am I coming across in this moment? So it's not even thinking about physically, like, does it feel good or whatever? Cause my brain is just thinking, what are they thinking? 
T: Have you ever had a moment where you felt you did lose yourself just for a moment and experienced something that felt really nice? I don't just mean sexually. I just mean. In a relationship, an intimate, emotional relationship with somebody. 
A: I can't say that probably that there's ever been a time where I completely felt relaxed and in the moment and took it for what it was and enjoyed it.
T: It is classic it's fear and anxiety, and you're completely hypervigilant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Claudia: It’s me Claud. Tan, can I just ask this question? Can you tell me a bit more about asexuality? I think you were asking Asher and Asher was aware that some people are asexual and whether she was. In that gang. 
T: Yeah. I just feel, even though I'm a clinical psychologist and you know, my job is to do psychological therapy. I think it's really important not to assume some kind of pathological route to what a person is describing or experiencing. And asexuality is, is understood as a sexual orientation. Um, It's estimated about 1% of the population. I mean, these surveys, I think are very difficult because, you know, how are you capturing the data? But basically it's, it's very rare for people to identify their sexual orientation as asexual, but there are people who do and who live with that comfortably. And so, you know, I wanted to just sort of establish with her that she wasn't. Sort of trying to tell herself, there was something wrong with her when actually this might just be who she is and she should be okay with saying, I don't have an emotional need to be sexually intimate with another person in my life. That's just not something that I need. And that's okay. But I think she was very clear. No, that, that actually wasn't, she didn't think she was asexual and she has had some sexual interaction with people and she felt that the reason it wasn't particularly pleasurable for her was because it was her head that was whirling with a lot of anxiety all the time. She just couldn't enjoy it and relax. You know, the only thing that she really knew growing up about letting go was what her brother did when people let go, they go crazy and it's horrible. So, you know, she's always got to keep things very safe and very contained and thought through and managed, and that then links to a fear of vulnerability and letting go.
C: Okay, and thank you so much. 
T: You've also described to Claude this sort of what I described as a sort of submarine type temperament, which is you have friends and you love your friends and they love you, but you are not open with people. 
A: No, I I'm slightly better in that I have like, my sister I'm really close to and my, my one best friend, I mean, I have other friends, but my best friend who I might text saying, oh, I'm just having a day or whatever, but I wouldn't ring them in a state of. Like when I'm really sad about something, I probably wouldn't ring, I know I wouldn't ring them. I'd ring them after the fact. And I will say like, you know, COVID, for example, like everybody else is struggling with it. I'm probably dealing with it the best of like anyone I know, because for me being solitary and like not seeing people, it's not that big of a. Issue like 
T: It’s taken the stress away. Hasn't it taken the stress away? The expectation. I just want to go back to the first sort of minute or so when we were talking and you said to me, I feel quite nervous. Just at the beginning there I saw in you what looked like emotion. There was something in your eyes. Just something about you, the way you were breathing in that moment, you were connecting with an emotion, which isn't now present. Tell me about that feeling you had when we very first started to talk. 
A: I don't know if you saw, but I probably had a bit of a tear in the eye.
T: I did see I did see it. Yeah. You looked down, you looked away, you took a bit of a breath and I saw you sort of emotionally and psychologically pull yourself together. And then you looked up and you said, right. Okay. So this is, this is what I'm, I'm going to answer your questions now.
A: If you could define me, it would be like she can really pull herself together, you know, and I probably suppress emotions, you know, I probably just push them down. You know, it's just a reflex, I guess.
T: But it's interesting this idea of resilience, isn't it? Because you could argue that in some ways you're not resilient. In terms of being able to allow a feeling to be present. 
A: Yeah. 
T: That anxiety that kicks in straight away, when you acknowledge that you feel in a particular way, like you did at the beginning, you said there was a tear in your eye.
A: Yeah. 
T: And your breathing is changing now, isn't it? 
A: Yeah.
T: Just stay with the feeling. 
A: Vulnerability is strength you know, I, I do believe that and you're right. I am a bit of a coward in that sense, because it's like suppressing emotions, you know, with my friends, it's fear for them to see the real me because they might not like me ultimately is what it really boils down to. Yeah I feel like a nervous sort of trembling feeling. 
T: You're feeling that now. You use the word coward to describe yourself, which I've just got to kind of check you on because that's pretty critical. Isn't it? I just wonder whether. You've never really been taught how to feel safe enough to express feelings. And you've never really been allowed to present in all shapes and sizes. And the people around you will accept you for who you are. 
A: That's that's exactly it. Even like superficial things. Like, I feel like I always have to look. Probably before 2020, my friends, my close friends who I've known since I was like, Six years old had never seen me without makeup.
T: So you have a mask on every day. 
A: Yeah. I've stripped that right back. My friends now see me like, no makeup, looking like rubbish. The way it happened was I was not wearing makeup. I went to the supermarket, which even that was a big deal. My friend was in the car park and she saw me, like, I thought she wouldn't even know who I was. That's what I thought. 
T: But it's interesting again, I mean, you've used coward to describe how you struggle to tolerate feelings. And now you're telling me that without makeup, without your mask on you look rubbish. So there's something about vulnerability that is despicable to you. 
A: And it's off-putting.
T: Yeah. Would the hypothesis be, it's not just a fear of sex and sexual intimacy it's a fear of emotional intimacy. So it's not just erotophobia, which is a fear of sexual intimacy but it's something more about a person who I can't control how the world are going to experience me or feel me because I might feel a bit out of control then. Then when you were born, your mother was busy, stressed, and probably depressed. I suspect. What do you, um, 
A: She was on antidepressants and things. Yeah. 
T: And how do you remember her? As much as one can remember you know that far back.
A: I remember feeling quite close to her. Like it felt like it was me and her against the world because my brother and sister was so much older. We were quite affectionate. Like she would always kiss and hug. 
T: Do your siblings have any memories? How the depression impacted on her? 
A: She was you know, not eating, not looking after herself and Indians, you know, the way they deal with death as well. Like it's very much like you don't speak about it kind of thing. Like you have kind of, I think it's like two weeks when the actual death happens, where you'd like cry and cry and people come over and cry and cry and then kind of after that, you just like never speak, you know? So we don't speak about my dad. Like, I can't tell you the date of his death. Like, I don't know really anything about his personality
T: Do you know how he died?
A: He had a heart attack. 
T: And how old was he? 
A: 36. 
T: So very young. 
A: Really young. Yeah. 
T: What did he do? 
A: He was an electrician. 
T: What else do you know about him? 
A: He liked, uh, Manchester United. He was a really good, um, snooker or pool, I don't know which one, but he was a good, he used to win like, like local competitions. Uh, he was quite modern. He immigrated quite young. Like, um, he, I think he was like 11 or something. Um, so he was quite westernized. He didn't expect my mom to just like cook clean. He was very like, do what you want. Go to cinema. It's fine. I'll look after the kids. That's probably all I know about him really, he liked the Beatles.
T: He liked the Beatles. And do your siblings have any memories that they've shared about what it was like being with dad and when dad did look after us when mum was out?
A: I think one time I said to my brother, why do you support Manchester United? And all, all he was trying to say was because dad did. And he couldn't, he was like stuttering. And, you know, he doesn't have a stammer or anything normally, but he was, he could not get the word dad out. That's how much he can't talk about it. I think when I see reactions like that, and that was a long time ago when I was younger and I asked that it's like, oh crap, I don't want to talk about it because that's, they struggle to talk about it so much.
T: Do you miss your dad? 
A: I think I would have felt more safe and secure and you know, like. Now if I, if something happened in my life that you need a dad for, like, I just don't have that security, like, oh, we could just ask my dad, you know? And my friend said, I asked my dad to fix my car tire or something. I'm like, oh, that must be nice. 
T: So it's something about being looked after, I suppose I'm thinking that sense of being safe and secure was never fully there from the beginning for you. 
A: Yeah, because she found out quite late, she wasn't looking after herself and she was quite neglectful of her own body. 
T: Do you worry about that? Do you think it's damaged you in some ways? 
A: I used to work for a domestic abuse charity. And we talked a lot about, you know, pregnant women and, um, the impact of the abuse on the, on the unborn baby. And when I did that work for that charity, I thought that made me think about me. Cause I know for a fact that my mom was not in a good state when she was pregnant with me and God knows, you know, what was going on around the house as well.
T: So what do you, what do you mean by that? 
A: Well, if she was dealing with like my brother, cause he was like doing the stereotypical, like kid gone bad type things, you know, like wrong crowd and like smoking and skipping school and getting into fights and all that kind of stuff. So she would have been dealing with a lot of that as well.
T: It's interesting. It sounds to me like your brother was attempting to be emotionally quite honest about what was going on. 
A: Yeah. And it, and it wasn't like dealt with well, and I think for my sister, she was able to talk to other females like cousins and stuff like that. But my brother really didn't talk to anyone I don't think.
T: The acting out is a communication. And it's interesting, isn't it? That in this kind of emotion-less, highly emotional situation where it wasn't really talked about. It was your brother who seemed to be sort of whirling around and screaming and sort of ripping things up and saying, hello? Hello? Hello. Hello. This is not good. This is not good. This is really bad. I'm not coping, but somehow no one was able to see that no one was able to understand that. So. The response to him was you're bad. You're naughty. You resented your brother. And then in the moments, when he felt he wanted some affection, which perhaps he didn't feel he could get from your mum because she was possibly quite cross with him as the only male in the house that he was literally losing it all the time. He'd come to you, you'd then feel really cross with him. And so there's all this unspoken, highly charged emotion being played out. 
A: That's very true. Yeah. I never thought about it like that. 
T: Don't tell me what you think. Tell me what you feel. 
A: Yeah. I feel sad for him because I never viewed him as a victim in any of this. I've always viewed him as like adding to the stress of the situation rather than responding to the situation. And I, and I am really resentful of him.
T: Because he's been the one that hasn't let people pretend that nothing is happening. 
A: And then that's continued in our whole, in our lives. You know, I've always felt like that. And he still is horrible to my mom. So I still feel that.
T: He's angry isn’t he.
A: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like a fresh wound. Like it's so real. 
T: This might feel a bit gender stereotyping, but you do see it often that in extreme sort of distress, boys will externalize and girls will internalize. You know, boys are more likely to throw things and beat people up and girls and more likely to self-harm, you've all responded to the same thing, but you've all responded in a very different way.
A: Yeah. 
T: What's the difference between you and your brother? Because it sounds to me that you might get yourself in a situation where you give people messages that you care about them, and then you suddenly dislike them and reject them. I'm thinking about that relationship you had for five or six months.
A: It's true. It's it's like, I'm trying to make myself like them, but I can't. 
T: But it's also, you're trying to make yourself dislike them. 
A: Yeah. 
T: This has made you anxious 
A: This?
T: This bit, this moment. Did you hear your breath there? Tell me about the anxiety.
A: I don’t even know I think my brother, I think thinking I’m like him in any way, like scares me 
T: Why?
A: I wouldn't want to be like him.
T: Because? 
A: He's just angry and selfish and horrible sometimes.
T: You're not that person, but it may be that the root of why he is the way he is, is not that dissimilar from why you are the way you are. He does it in a more overt, extreme, and really difficult way for other people to deal with. But I suspect you do it more quietly. People come close and then push them away. 
A: I suppose I do it in a way that's on the, on the surface looks socially acceptable.
T: Vulnerable people don't just show their vulnerability in a socially acceptable way. Do they? Your brother does fight. You do flight. 
A: Yeah. 
T: It feels to me like there is a conversation that needs to happen in your family. What do you fear? Do you worry that it will tip your mother into a depression again, do you worry that your brother brother will stand up and start throwing things around the room? 
A: Um, my biggest worry would be, I suppose. Yeah, his reaction. When I was like 17, 18, I wrote him a letter. Um, and I like said all these things, like, I know you're hurting. I know you're the way you are, is because of what dad did, you know what happened? And he just rejected it completely. 
T: How did he reject it? 
A: I think I like slipped it under his door or something and he obviously read it because it was opened in his room, but he just like, never mentioned it ever again.
T: Fact, you avoid talking about these very complex, difficult, but important things is because you're afraid of the reaction of others. So this issue about people seeing you with it without makeup, or this issue about talking about how you feel is because you're so afraid of how people will react to you.
A: Yeah. 
T: So the issue for you with relationships is something about if I show my true self people, won't want to be with me. 
A: Yeah. 
T: Just remind me what's wrong with you because I've missed it. 
A: I don't know. 
T: Precisely. I do believe your brother is very key to all of this, because actually he was your primary male role model wasn't he. And of course, when you've got your father photo-shopped into a photo, he became this idealized lost father figure. And you were left with this male in the house who was just a nightmare and a problem it's really difficult for you to work out what a healthy relationship is. 
A: Yeah
T: Because a healthy relationship is about all the strengths we bring to each other in our relationship, but all the flaws, but flaws for you are unpalatable, whether it's your brother and the way he behaved, or whether it's you walking across a car park with no makeup on being shocked that your friend could recognize you because you look so horrible. It's all about things having to stay controlled and to some degree perfect. In order for you to feel safe and you look sad.
A: Yeah. I'm so scared of ending up with somebody like my brother, every man I'm like looking for reasons why they could for them to be like him. And I try and avoid that. 
T: My gut feeling is that it would help you to take this into a therapeutic relationship and really dig into it more to be challenged to connect to the feelings and sit with them a little bit in order to know that nothing bad, nothing catastrophic will happen if feelings are felt and expressed. But what I'd like to ask you to do is I would like you to write down all the questions that you have never been able to ask. 
A: Yeah. Okay. 
T: Thank you so much. 
A: Thank you.
Claudia: What do you feel after your first chat with Asher? Cause I have many questions. 
T: It's the fear of feeling that is so present when, when I was talking to her and I could see tears coming in and literally just being sort of pulled away. 
C: Why is she so fearful of a feeling? 
T: If I think about the whole sort of emotional content of her life from birth, she had a mum who very understandably was exhausted unhappy, stressed and clinically depressed. So emotionally would have been quite cut off in a way. And then the other model, if you like role model of feelings is her brother who is acting out aggressive, challenging causing significant stress and unhappiness. So it's very all or nothing for her. She doesn't have an understanding or hasn't really ever been shown how feelings can be expressed in a way that may feel uncomfortable and difficult, but still can be safe and can then be processed and discussed and thought about. And I think it's just, she's never really understood that she's never seen it. It's never been shown to her. She's never learned it. So now she is really unable to know how to do it.
C: I feel so bad for her brother. I feel so bad for her whole family. It was so interesting what you asked her to do in the break, because they don't talk about her dad. And in fact, then a big lie on the wall because she thought, oh, I know he's gone, but at least I will have met him. It feels like she just has this, this void of knowledge.
T: Yeah. And experience. And I think it's about relationships with men. So she grew up with a chaotic. Aggressive angry, actually very unhappy brother, who probably was the person in the family that held all the emotion. And it was just kind of spilling out of him in a very challenging and distressing way. Or she's got this idealized sense of a man. So much of what she thought or knew about him was also built on something that wasn't even true. 
C: I love being with you, even though we're on zoom. I miss your little hands. Not that we're allowed to hold hands, but you know what I mean….
T: Little hands…
C: Their miniature, tiny, small as a pea. Let’s get Asha in.
Tanya: How did you feel? After our first chat? 
Asha: I sort of felt relieved. And then when I was writing the questions felt quite sad. Well, we'll get there in a minute, but tell me about the relief. First of all.
A: I think, cause I have a tendency to kind of like catastrophize everything in my brain. So I thought it was going to be like, really…. I was just glad that I'd done it. 
T: In a sense. It's almost like we, we did a tiny bit of what's called exposure therapy. You put yourself in a situation where you fully opened yourself up to somebody else talked about yourself, really honestly. And you know what the world didn't end and, you know, I didn't explode into sort of hysterics. You know, if you're going to do this with a therapist, which I think would be a great process for you, I feel like it needs to go back to that stage where you have someone in a, in a moment with you just helping you notice that in yourself in a way that doesn't feel threatening. But you did say just a second ago, when we started talking this time around, you said, um, when I wrote the letter asking the questions about my dad, I felt sad. Do you feel able to share that with me, that list of questions, do you feel able to, and can I ask you, imagine speaking it with the people that you care about? Sort of put yourself in that place rather than just make this another intellectual exercise. 
A: Okay. So to my siblings, what do you miss about dad? Um, what were your favorite memories about him?
T: You're going to be all right. It's okay. I know you're crying. Carry on. 
A: How often do you think about him? Do I remind you of him? How did you feel when I was born? How did you feel when he died? Uh, and then to my mom, you know, would he have been excited to have another child? Um, would he have been excited to have another daughter? What were dad's favorite foods? Was he funny? What did he like? What did he not like? What kind of clothes did he wear? And then that's basically it. 
T: How do you feel now? 
A: So when I read that out, I'm like, God, he had likes dislikes. He actually was a person. You know, sometimes he's just like an idea. Now I feel a bit embarrassed for getting sad.
T: What’s embarrassing about getting sad. 
A: It's just, just so on the table. It's just so vulnerable. I just. 
T: You're talking about your dad, who you thought you knew, and then you realized he wasn't who you thought he was, because the picture that they had there of you and him wasn't even real. So you didn't then didn't know what was real. You grew up thinking, well, at least I had some time with my dad. And then one day, one of your little friends told you, that you didn't. That's incredibly sad. 
A: Well, it just makes me think, like they actually lost someone.
T: You're shedding some tears. I would say, this is a real breakthrough moment for you because you are allowing yourself to engage with feelings and who is acknowledging that those feelings are really important.
A: It's true. 
T: Describe your feeling. I just want to help you understand the feeling you're having. Do you remember? We said you need someone to help you really understand it. 
A: I never thought I needed to grieve. 
T: So the child needs to grieve for the loss of the father before the woman can then allow herself to attach to her primary male attachment.
A: Makes perfect sense. 
T: It's so clear in your questions, isn't it? 
A: Yeah. 
T: You need to know him. If you look at the child bereavement trust or grief encounter or Winston's Wish, or any of the charities that work with children who lose a parent, when they're young, they do so much around narrative and stories and making a box of memories of, you know dad’s socks or mum's favorite cardigan or a small bottle of mum's perfume. Or, and as I say that, I can see you getting more and more tearful because you're imagining that.
A: His suit used to be in the cupboard. So I have like a couple of things, but I don't know where the suit is now
T: But it does feel that you need to paint the picture of your father. Maybe initially it isn't something that your brother is part of because you recognize his fragility might make it impossible for him. And then also very difficult for everybody else. 
A: Yeah. 
T: But perhaps you could speak to your mum or your sister, or you could write to them, if you felt it was something you wanted to sort of give them a chance to think about before you spoke to them. I think you have to do it in a way that feels safe. Do you have a photo of him in your, in your home? 
A: Yeah, it’s just there.
T: Can I see him? He's proper handsome. 
A: Yeah. 
T: What do you think when you're looking at it? 
A: When my friends come over, not now, but when they used to come over and look at him, I feel proud. I can't really say much about him, but I can show them him. 
T: And what are you proud of when you show him to your friends? 
A: He's my dad, because I don't, you know, I can't convey any other, you know, story or anything.
T: You have cried all the way through this conversation about your father. Why are you rolling your eyes? 
A: I'm so skilled at not that's why. Not skilled enough. 
T: I don't think it's about you’re not skilled enough. I think it's about, I think you're ready. Thank you. Actually, thank you for sharing this bit of you with me, particularly given what you were able to do today. I think that makes you quite an extraordinary woman and a woman who I think would give a lot and gain a lot from meeting their extraordinary life partner. So I wish you, well.
A: Thank you so much. Thank you.
Claudia: What have you learned? 
Asha: Nobody's ever honestly, like ever said, I mean, my auntie died last year and her daughter, my cousin was like, oh, you know, I know you don't know what it's like to lose anyone. And then to my sister, but you do. Um, so it's always been kind of like, I have not really lost anyone. I'm gonna cry again, what’s she done? but, um, It's fascinating, isn't it that that's, that's the cause of all these other things, you know? Um, so the takeaways is, is, is him, which is so weird because it's something that happened 30, nearly 35 years ago. And it's still the, the core issue now. And I find that baffling but I get why that's the case. Um, and also the stuff about my brother about him being the most honest one like that's fascinating too, because I never thought that.
C: It was so interesting when you said to Tanya, I'd never thought of him as a victim. And of course he was unraveling. He'd lost his dad, but, but I also understood, I understand that. Every person's role in the family and what they had to do to keep going nobody is at fault.
A: Like, it's true. You know, the honest reaction to losing somebody you love. And as a 10 year old boy, you know, your dad is like your life. You know, like my thing is vulnerability, but the thing is, you know, um, Tanya was saying about little breakthroughs, you know, with your friends, you know, a little, just give them a piece of something and then you'll realize they didn't mind that so much.
C: Not only did they not mind it. They like it more, you have to see the real person. There is a joy in being able to help, like, hold on, I'll fix this. He said, what? Leave this with me. People want to do that.
A: If I don't, I'm kind of lessening the depth of our relationships by withdrawing or holding with withholding that information.
C: But thank you. Thank you so much. We are so grateful.
A: Thank you.
C: So the first half of Asher, she wouldn't let herself go that every time she was a bit emotional, she'd steal herself she'd almost sit up a bit straighter, bite her lip, continue. And then the second half, she just wept throughout. Something was unlocked. And she said, when she said to you, I've never thought of him as a person. You want all of it. You don't just want this perfect invisible parent that you're not allowed to grieve. 
T: But yet and I also found this really moving when I asked her if she had a photo of him in her, in her home. And then she literally reached about. 20 centimeters to her right out of the camera, I couldn’t see it and he was right there. He was right there next to her throughout this whole conversation in, in a frame, angled, looking at her. And, and again, I thought, wow, you know, he is so present, but she has no idea how to know him and therefore how to say goodbye to him. So of course, it's going to be difficult to feel any confidence in attaching to anyone else if you've not said goodbye to your first major male attachment. 
C: I am so happy she came aren't you? 
T: Yes, I am. And it really do you know what it made me think about our friendship. It made me think about why we're such good friends and how, you know, on the 5th of April, 2005, we were standing next to each other about to go back into the house of tiny tearaways and my sister called me and told me my father had just died. And there you were. And you saw me at a moment in my life and being a version of myself that no one really sees and you cared for me and you know that part of me. And I know that part of you for other reasons that have happened in your life and I feel like that is a true relationship, a true friendship. When you are able to be fully yourself, even in the most vulnerable way with people who can be there and look after you. And I hope that she felt that from us today because we both know what that feels like. 
C: Totally. I feel she is on her way. She is on her way, but I feel like when we said goodbye to her just two minutes ago, she's going to make a call. Something has shifted. Does that make any sense? 
T: Something has shifted. Absolutely. Right. That makes a lot of sense. The only problem with doing it on zoom though, is when we do these sessions, because we both feel quite emotional afterwards you generally make some nice food. 
C: What have you got at home? And I will direct you have, you got a piece of bread and some cheese. 
T: I've also got a great 80’s soundtrack I could put on for us to just dance around our rooms too. 
C: Put that on. You make cheese on toast. I'm going to have a bowl of cereal. Even though it's 3:00 PM. Cause that's the way I'm rolling at the moment. Lock down three, there are no rules and that's the end of it. I love you Tan. 
T: Love you too Claud see you soon. 
C: Just so you know, we always follow up with our guests providing useful contacts and information. Some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode. Please do share this podcast. You can send links direct from the app. If you like, you can also follow to get new episodes as soon as they come out. Also, we would love to know what you think. Do rate comment and give us a five star review. It all helps us to make more. And finally, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email describing your issue to how@somethinelse.com that's how, how@somethinelse.com something without the G. Next time we meet Danny.
Danny: Yeah. That's kind of floored me. And I think my wife put it one way she said that, you know, that, if you see the three of us together, there's something other about you. 
Claudia: This podcast was made by the team at Somethin’ Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the assistant producer is Grace Laiker, the producer is Selina Ream and the executive producers are Claire Solan and Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman.
Thank you so much for listening. .