Claudia: Please note this episode contains some emotional content, including some unexpected news about a parent and strong language, which may not be suitable for all listeners. 
Danny: Yeah, that's kind of floored me. And I think my wife put it one way she said that, you know, that, if you see the three of us together, there's something other about you.
C: Welcome to How Did We Get Here? With me Claudia Winkleman and my excellent friend, clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron. Each episode, we look at some of the difficulties people are facing in their daily lives. I listen in to the conversation to understand how Tan unlocks the story and we discuss what has unfolded in the middle and at the end, we are of course, on video link so please forgive any occasional sound glitches from time to time. This time we meet Danny, who has a wife, two small children and two older stepchildren. Danny's the eldest of three siblings. His father sadly died in the spring of 2019. During lockdown in 2020, Danny did a DNA test, which threw up some surprising results. Danny's unsure how to react to the news that has changed his view of his parents and his own identity. 
D: She was like, look, it happened. It wasn't until your brother and sister came out with blonde hair that I knew. 
C: Let's go and meet Danny….
C: A huge welcome to How Did We Get Here? Why are you talking to us today? 
D: Back in 2018, my father took, you know, one of those DNA tests, you know, just out of curiosity, more than anything else. Um, Those results came through and it was on one of the, a website, which links you. If you take that. And I took, I took one last year, um, out of curiosity for the same website and, um, funnily enough, it didn't link us as being related. The first place I went was to my mother who, um, can be quite incommunicative at times. 
C: How did your mum react? 
D: Very, very bizarrely. I said to her so you know, so I've got my results back and she said, yes. And I said, um, it doesn't link me to dad. And she was like, um, no. And that is a direct quote. Yeah. So my reaction was then to laugh and then to quiz her on, you know, if she had a name or anything like that, which she does. And she has some very scant details 
C: What you’re describing very calmly must have been an enormous shock. 
D: Yes and no. I'm the eldest of three. My, um, my younger brother is sort of, uh, is kind of quite the, quite the clone of my father. Um, and I've never looked like him and people have always asked questions my entire life. And it's sort of one of those things of where you deny, deny, deny, because he always treated me as if I were his son. That then pulls up feelings, which, you know, rightly or wrongly are feelings of kind of embarrassment in a way, cause you kind of get you're like this thing that I denied for nearly 40 years is all of a sudden, you know, you're, you're kind of categorically proven to have been wrong on. And um, I suppose there's another element to this is that it transpires that my biological father is of south Asian heritage. So, you know, I I'm I'm mixed race but I I've been raised by completely white people. And I, you know, I don't even know what it means to be mixed race or what it means to be south Asian in any way, shape or form you know, there’s this whole kind of like cultural Gulf that I I've missed in. How do you tune into that? I, I, you know, I just have no idea and, um, 
C: When you get this extraordinary result, what you're saying is there's part of you that went erm… this sort of makes sense. 
D: Yeah. 
C: We should say that you couldn't go and discuss it with your dad because sadly he passed away.
D: Yes. 
C: So this is extraordinary. You're there you're nearly 40. What was your relationship growing up like with your parents?
D: You know, we, we, we had a good stable, loving home, you know, even when they got divorced, when I was about 10.
C: And you are close to your siblings? 
D: Yes. 
C: Can I swear? It's a mindfuck is what it is Danny. There is no, sometimes you've just got to S I mean, that is, we can't downplay it. 
D: The thing about mind fucks is, you know, there's no textbook on how to react. I know, I sound very calm right now, but my, um, my heart is pounding, talking about this. Um, you know, my thoughts are racing, so it is quite difficult for me to kind of, and this is something I've never struggled with is, is articulate it in, uh, in and of itself that's almost like another set of anxieties to then try….
C: Of course it's alarming when, you know, you can normally talk and make sense of something. This is very difficult not least because of I'm sure she's an absolutely wonderful woman because of your mom's reaction. A simple no when you're going. No, no. I mean, your dad is still your dad. You had a good relationship with him, but you you're going, but biologically, who, who have you gone to for support? Who's looked after you, your partner, we should say you've got two children, two stepchildren. 
D: Yes. My wife has done a Sterling job as far as she can. My father was quite the character and there's, there were very few people in my life who, weren’t connected to him or fond of him, or, you know, friends with him. And there's very few people who you can go to, or indeed anyone that you can go to who doesn't have some sort of emotive reaction to it. And I, I don't know what I need, but I know I don't need an emotive reaction. And. And so that makes going to family very difficult. It makes going to my wife very difficult. Her and I have spoken about this. So I'm comfortable saying this here is, is I've spoken to her about it. And I found her reaction to be at times quite judgmental on my mother. And it's a bizarre thing that 
C: You feel protective.
D: Yeah. I think it might be one of the hurdles that I need to cross but I'm not again, I'm not sure if that's going to lead on to things that maybe I don't want them to lead on to or I’m scared of.
C: Of course, because I mean, it's opening Pandora's box. I mean, something huge has happened to you. I think it's amazing that you've come on the show because I know that these kits, there are lots of different names for them, but people are just doing them sort of for a laugh. Somebody gave me one as a present, often things come up. Let me just say this. So thank you so much for taking part because lots of people will be listening. Before I hand you to the brilliant professor, Tan. Just if you can, can you tell me what you're after? 
D: I think finding peace with it will be a process, but I think more to get some guidance about where I go next. I mean, I have seen a counselor. I found some of it useful in some respects, but then it felt like I was just talking to someone at a bus stop. It didn't feel very clinical in a way. And I think that that may be me and maybe I didn't open up and maybe, you know, as a result, she felt that she couldn’t go deeper, but I think I need someone to help me go deeper or at least guide me, you know, start the process and show me, you know, You know, here's a path. And then if you go down that path, you can expect to get to here. You know, someone to show me the map. 
C: Okay. Thank you again, Tanya will definitely show you the map.
Tanya: It's interesting. You, you said, I know, I sound calm, but you're not actually feeling calm are you your heart is beating. Your mind is racing. You're anxious. 
D: Yeah. 
T: You also said something just a few moments ago with Claud at the end of your chat with her, you said I'm just, maybe I'm afraid that these conversations will lead on to things I'm scared of. Fear gets in the way of any kind of processing doesn't it so maybe we should start with the fear that you're experiencing now and that you feel. 
D: All of my familial connections are, you know, outside of the immediate five of us are all on my father's side, my mother has fallen out of touch with virtually all of her family. This whole situation has thrown up feelings of not being part of that family that you felt part of. I am afraid that. You know, if I opened to coin Claudia's phrase, you know, if I opened Pandora's box, it has the potential for me to lash out in certain ways that I feel would be far more destructive than they perhaps could be. And I see that in my mother, uh, you know, sometimes I just see her being quite alone and I don't, I don't want that for myself. And I know, I know I've got my wife and I know I've got my children and, you know, they, they will always be part of my life. And I know there's no right way to do it, but, you know, I don't want to do it in the most wrong of ways if you know what I mean. 
T: That makes a lot of sense. I think you're afraid of being angry with your mom because there is so much to feel confused and angry about. You're so afraid that you'll end up behaving in ways that will destroy relationships. And this could be the most destructive, catastrophic process for you. You remind me of a rabbit in the headlights. You just don't know where to go with what you're seeing. 
D: That's fair. 
T: How comfortable are you generally with anger? Are you, are you a man who can feel angry and you can, anger can be used constructively or do you find anger anyway, quite challenging. 
D: I can be quite cutting and quite harsh and brutal at times. And that's something that I do know that I have within me. So I try and measure it as much as I can. I've had one further conversation with my, with my mum. And, but since then, I haven't really had any time to really think about it other than, you know, a few conversations around. Around what we're doing today. 
T: Yeah. And as I understand it, since September also, you you've had COVID, your wife's had COVID, you've had health issues, I mean, there's been a, I mean, it's been a blimming tough, busy few months, hasn't it?
D: Yeah.
T: So it's not like you've been able to sit down and put your feet up and sort of do a bit of processing and a bit of thinking. 
D: No.
T: Right. Would you say that when you are your most cutting, harsh, brutal self, is it because you've been triggered in a way that makes you feel quite anxious and vulnerable? And so it's a sort of, it's been a sort of defense mechanism you've used in your life. I mean, a lot of people do, you know, they get angry cause they they've been rattled a bit and they don't like the way it makes them feel. 
D: Yeah, it can be, it can be triggered when I feel threatened and vulnerable. Yeah. 
T: Yeah. You said something about having been in denial for almost 40 years. I think what you were saying is I always knew I was different. I looked different and I just wondered whether some of the anxiety and the anger that you felt throughout your life might be something about that. It might be something about this denial that you've wrapped around you, and then you get this test result and it's like, it's not the biggest shock in the world in the sense that maybe it's not telling you something that you haven't ever wondered in one way or another. You're laughing and sort of nodding. Tell me why you're laughing. 
D: I was just laughing at how remarkably perceptive that observation is. Yeah, that's kind of floored me and I think my wife put it one way she said you know, that if you see the three of us together, there's something other about you. 
T: And I think you said to Claud, there have been questions asked in the past.
D: Yeah. 
T: I mean, that must've been so odd growing up with that.
D: The questioning and the bantery way of people saying, well, you know, you're the milkman’s or, you know, they're that, that is a phrase that I've had my entire life, you know? And the other thing you think about when something like this happens, you sort of remember all of the instances of, you know, racial abuse that I've received throughout my life, which you kind of shrug off at the time. You know, you know, that's just mad. Both my parents are white, you know, that, that's another thing that I've kind of had to deal with, because none of it hurt me at the time, but actually since then, remembering it all, I've found that very, very hurtful and very, very difficult to deal with.
T: Absolutely horrendous and I can see you getting quite upset, just remembering that. I mean, that is just awful. Talk to me a bit about that. 
D: These are people that I've known for a long, long time. Who've always assumed that I am my parents child. So, and they, you know, in some examples they've known my parents and it would very much fall in, in their minds it would very much fall into the, are you the milkman’s son category?
T: Banter 
D: Yeah, rather than, rather than racial abuse. And I think they would, but I think that's a very, there's a very thin line there. Where one can slip into the other, you know, or you almost in a way from a stranger it's easier to accept because they've, they've just, you know, they're just idiots who have not taken the time, you know? And that’s easier to dismiss, but where it's more ingrained in your kind of social circle is that it's much more difficult to compartmentalize in a way. 
T: That sort of idea of unconscious racism that sort of, oh, it's only a joke mate, but it isn't actually a joke. It's not something you would joke about that, that sort of thing, as much as it's not the people who are necessarily overtly racist, but it's that banter that actually, when you deconstruct it, you think why would this even be funny if it were true and now in your case is true. So it's just, it's just so layered. Isn't it? And so, so painful. And do any of these people know have you told anybody? 
D: No, I've not told anyone really, outside of my immediate family. 
T: So your siblings know?
D: My siblings know. 
T: And what did they say? What, what's their reaction been? 
D: Hugely supportive. My sister would like me to talk more about it, but I think it's just been, you know, it's just, everyone's just a bit too close. It just makes me feel awkward and uncomfortable. Even thinking about talking to my sister. Yeah. 
T: Yeah. Well, you're properly squirming in your seat and you've been totally still up until this point.
D: Yeah. 
T: Just to help you with that for now. You're not ready. Don't put any pressure on yourself to have big, heavy chats with anyone you need. And we will think about that. You need a space where you can, you can get your narrative straight, you can't. How can anyone have a conversation with anyone about something that's so deeply personal until they've got their own narrative straight. I wouldn't expect you to have a chat with anyone at the moment of any depth, because you haven't even had that with yourself yet. I'm curious about this other conversation you had with your mom. I mean, as much as you want to say, it would be helpful, but she doesn't sound like a very communicative person, I suppose I'm curious about how as an emotional person, as a emotionally intuitive, interactive person. My sense is she might not be.
D: Well, I'll talk you through the conversation. She was like, look, it happened. It wasn't until your brother and sister came out with blonde hair that I knew. 
T: So your parents were relatively newly married? 
D: My parents were forced into marriage because my mother was pregnant with me.
T: Oh. So the assumption was that your father was the biological father of her pregnancy. 
D: Yeah. 
T: Your biological father. Do you know much about him? I mean, was it a one-off? 
D: It was a one-off. Um, I believe they worked together. I've got a name I've got where he used to work. I have some scant details. My mother remembers about his familial arrangements at the time. I think he was married with two children at the time. You know, I've engaged an agency to try and find him. They've tracked down someone with his name, who, who denies that is that it's him and it may not be. Um, and I have nothing else to go on. Really. 
T: Another, something that feels stuck. 
D: Yeah. 
T: Unknown to your mother, really until her second child, your sister came along and then your brother after that, were you conceived by the person that she'd had the sort of one, one night stand or whatever with, did she share that with your, with her husband, your father did, so it’s never been spoken about ever? 
D: No, she, she did say that she's been carrying around the shame and the guilt of it for nearly 40 years. And I said to her, well, I can't help you with that. You need to go and find your, find some way of giving yourself. She also said that I had every right to be angry with her. In a way, it feels like something. I just, I can't access. Not that I don't necessarily want to, and it doesn't necessarily feel like I'm swallowing it down it just doesn't feel like it's like, it's there to boil over. 
T: Mm. 
C: Hello. It's me Claude. I just want to ask you a question, Tan, about these DNA tests, people getting unexpected results from them must be happening globally. 
T: Yeah. So, I mean, I've come across this before as a clinician, you know, many times. And, you know, it's, it's interesting really, because these are sort of fun things that people buy each other as a gift. I think someone's bought you one haven't they? 
C: They did. 
T: Yeah. And you know, I mean, this is a potential sort of bomb going off in your life, the human fertility and embryology authority, the HFEA, which is the fertility regulator. Has called for DNA testing websites to clearly warn customers about the risks of uncovering family secrets and underlying health traits you know, these things, I think need to carry a sort of health warning, a mental health warning, because you know, it is fun to know what your genetic heritage is and all that stuff in. It's another great thing that science has been able to bring us, but you know, the costs can be huge. And I think certainly if anybody had one of those kits were given one and had any thoughts or questions or bought one because they had thoughts or questions, if it was possible, I would always suggest that you would go and speak to your parents first and say, I'm thinking of doing this is there a conversation we need to have? I just, it's just the way it just lands in people's laps, I think is. So, I mean, it's, life-changing information in terms of how you understand yourself that has just come out of you sort of spitting on a bit of gauze and sending it off to a lab. 
C: Absolutely.
T: You'll be interested to know there are fellowships around the world of people who have been affected by this there's one called the NPE fellowship, uh, NPE. Is non parental event. That's what NPE stands for. And it's, it's a fellowship of people who in this way have found out that their parent mother or father is not the biological mother or father maybe cause of donor egg conception or step-parent adoption that they were never told about one night stands, assaults, affairs, sperm bank donors, you know, I mean, it's just opening up a cupboard of secrets and that in itself is difficult. Why didn't I know this, why wasn't I told, so it's just, I really think people need to approach this with caution and really think about, you know, the possible ramifications of, of these sorts of tests. Really. 
C: Okay. Thank you. Let's go back to the chat.
Tanya: This is such a shock for you, and it's interesting. Your mum did say to you. She felt guilt and shame, and she has always held on to guilt and shame. And you have said that you have guilt and shame. You have shame and embarrassment, I think is what you've said. So your mom and you are sort of holding onto some similar feelings.
Danny: Yeah. Those feelings. I don't understand personally .
T: No. You were, however we want to say it racist banter. I mean, I don't think the word banter makes it any more acceptable, but you know, people would make comments, as you've explained earlier, as you were growing up. Is there any guilt and shame around the fact that you also now have this mixed heritage and, and just all that, that brings up cause it feels like that's a whole other area. You sort of mentioned it to Claudia, you said, I don't know anything about south Asian culture. I mean, I literally, I'm now finding out I'm a part of something I don't even know the first thing about 
D: Yeah. I think it's probably accentuated by having children as well, you know, but so you want to empower them to be able to engage with that in some meaningful manner and there's a thing about learning superficially learning about the fact that there are other cultures out there it's a different thing, learning what it means to be part of a culture. Am I ever going to be able to really understand what it means to be south Asian? 
T: That's a good question and also for your daughters to understand it isn't just, they go to some assemblies about it and do a project at school. This is something much, much deeper. Which, where do you begin with your children when you don't even know where to begin with yourself? 
D: Yeah. 
T: So you feel completely helpless there as well in terms of not only understanding your identity, but how you as their father helps them understand this.
D: Yeah. 
T: And then you, something else, you said the connections that I've really had in my life as far as extended family goes, has been with my father's side of the family and that, which is a very important stabilizing aspect of our identities that has now itself. To some degree been shaken, even though these people love you and will continue to love you in the way they always have something inside You has also found that that has, uh, feels quite threatened in a way those bonds, those links, those connections. 
D: Yeah. Uh, but there's still part of you that wonders if anyone will have a, have an adverse reaction to it. 
T: Mmm, the potential for rejection is there. 
D: Yeah. 
T: Even if that were not to really happen, doesn't mean to say that emotionally, you might not be experiencing that anyway. There's a whole other part of you, maybe, you know, 50% of you that you don't even know who, who, what that means. So it's suddenly like you've been pushed into sort of no man's land. You're neither in one place or another. 
D: See, this is the thing, is I just, I, I just feel ashamed. 
T: Uh, can I ask you, sorry to interrupt. Why are you ashamed? Where's the shame? 
D: You know, I think it's because I work in the same industry that my father worked in. There are very few people that I work with that don't know my father, and it's almost like I feel. I feel the embarrassment and the shame on his behalf in a way. 
T: So he will be judged 
D: Yeah. That he will be judged. And by extension, I will be too, 
T: Some people will judge. I mean, there are people who have all sorts of extraordinarily unhelpful beliefs about other people's behavior, um, whether or not you have to. See their reactions as being relevant to how you feel about this, how you feel about who you are, how you feel about your father. Your mother is a separate thing in a way, but at the moment, it's so caught up that because you haven't worked out your narrative here. I can see why the reactions of others could feel so overwhelming for you. That could change in time. Can I, can I just turn if that's okay to your dad, your father died, and then you found this information out not long after, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but it's feels to me like a double bereavement in a way you kind of, you lose him. And then in another way, you sort of lose. Him. I, I, it just felt brutal. The timing of this and everything for you. It just feels horrible. 
D: Um, I hadn't even considered that. And it's that, that is again, very insightful and… 
T: Brought tears to your eyes. 
D: Yeah. 
T: Talk me through it. Cause I feel like this is where you begin. You begin with that. Your dad and his death, and then this information and grief, which you probably haven't even had time to process. Plus we've been in lockdown since he's died and everything followed by grief. I mean, this is a form of bereavement. It's a loss of what you thought you knew in terms of who you were so you lose him and then you lose your sense of self in relation to him. I mean, this is complicated grief. Why are you laughing? 
D: Because when you say it, it just, it seems so, so obvious. And like I'm laughing at myself for not putting two and two together. 
T: How can a drowning man work out which way to swim. I mean, you're too busy, drowning. I mean, I'm trying to imagine your pandemic. If we're going to talk about life events, if we're going to talk about challenges thrown at people, you don't feel to me like a guy who throws himself a pity party, you're a very measured, thoughtful, articulate bloke. You're not looking for sympathy here at all. If anything, it makes you embarrassed that you're in this situation, you hate it. You hate just everything about that part of it. But. Bloody hell Danny I mean, your father's diagnosed, a year later he dies, we go into a pandemic, a pandemic, and to lock down, you have your second of your two biological children is born. You've got another one. Who's tiny and being homeschooled. You've got two adolescent stepchildren. You get results of a DNA test that then tell you that your father isn't your biological father. You get COVID your wife gets COVID. I think you've had some kidney complications I mean, I'm sorry. At what point were you supposed to work out what I just helped you see that you've had the most crushing, double bereavement and you haven't even begun to breathe, to be able to catch your breath enough, to, to start to work it all through. You've got to say goodbye to your dad. And now you've got to say goodbye to another bit of your dad that you didn't even know you wasn't yours in that sense of genetic connection. He's your father. He always will be. You love him. I suspect he loved you, but he's gone. You can't talk to him about this. You know this about him. He doesn't know, you know, that must contribute to a sense of guilt and shame and betrayal on his part. As Claudia said, it is a mind fuck. 
D: Yeah. 
T: Let, let me ask you a question just, just quickly, just to sort of put a different slant on this. You obviously are aware we've got a huge nature nurture debate. Aren't you? How much is genes? How much is nurture? How much is childhood early life experiences, context of life, environment, Yardiyadiyah. Where do you sit on that? 
D: It's a bit of both but it is predominantly genetics, but then, you know, your environment plays a role. 
T: Sure. So, so absolutely genes play an important, very important role. And as you say, we have underlying and inherited predispositions, but nature is one part, but nurture who you are as a man and how your relationship with your father shaped you is fundamentally powerful. If it wasn't as powerful as it is, you wouldn't make so much of an effort to be the best father that you can to your two daughters. You want to give them everything. You're already trying to work out how to help them understand their south Asian heritage before you've even got your head around it for yourself. I mean, that's how much you care and my instinct is, that's what he gave you. I can see the tears in your eyes.
D: Yeah. 
T: What are you feeling? Tell me what's made you feel this emotional it's important. You're not anxious. You're very calm. You're just connecting with something that I think is really important. 
D: What you've just said is, is, um, absolutely spot on and I didn't really appreciate that.
T: What are you describing?
D: What an influence my father was. 
T: And nothing can change that. I would be curious to know how your father would have a conversation with you about this and how he would advise you. I'd be really curious about that. Not that we've spoken in any great detail about your relationship with him, but my sense is you respected him and loved him and you felt respected and loved by him and you miss him. You miss him dreadfully. The grief of his loss has been so kicked down the road by this whole, whole other new piece of information. I think we should take a break. And then the second part of our chat really would be about trying to pull some, pull it together for you in a way that enables you to, to have a sense of what next for you. As you know, if you listen to the podcast, I often get people to write in the break cause writing is quite a useful way of kind of processing emotional content because you're sort of putting it through a different part of the brain in order to write it as a narrative, either as just a sort of summary of where you think we've got to or things that have come out for you that have been meaningful, that you just want to anchor into a bit more because the muddle has been so huge, just something that feels a bit clearer for you. 
D: Okay. 
T: Do you think you could do that?
D: Yeah. I think I can do that. 
Claudia: Tanya. I felt bad about swearing, but I couldn't find the right words for what Danny's been through 
T: In a pandemic. 
C: I know. 
T’ You know, there's a lot of research around the area of psychology called life events, life events, being things that happen in our lives that can bring with them, even, even good things like the birth of a new child, but can bring a lot of stress, a lot of change, a lot of, you know, there's a lot to deal with. He's kind of scoring high on a number of them. So the sense that I, I F I feel with him is he is just absolutely paralyzed. In terms of what he's found out and what he does with it. He feels almost in shock and stuck and, you know, he's early on and getting used to not having his father around. And his father was obviously an important role model for him. It's actually heart-breaking.
C: It is heart- breaking because the person who you go to for advice and help me dad and what do I do? Is both missing and is also the subject matter of the chat.
T: It’s incredibly complicated. This to me feels more about helping Danny just work out how to talk about what he is trying to understand. It feels like I've had a conversation with someone talking about how to talk about something painful, because he is clearly incredibly afraid of where that talking and the associated feelings could lead him. 
C: So for Danny, when he comes back, how do you want him to leave with permission to talk? And I'd like him to leave with permission, not to be angry. If I can just throw that in. 
T: Yeah. I think this is, this has been, I feel like almost a trial run for him. He, um, um, I hope he's found it helpful. I mean, we'll find out in a minute when I, when I talk to him again, it sounds really awful to say I was pleased to see that he got upset. Obviously I'm not pleased when anyone's upset, but you can imagine that happens quite a lot in my work, I was pleased because he was able to feel and not get angry. In fact, as we always see Claud, the anxiety that people bring, once they contact the emotion, the anxiety dissipates. 
C: Totally. 
T: So I think this is about maybe if nothing else today, he’s seen that it's not as fearful to go to that place in himself, as he thought it was. It's okay to have these conversations and to feel emotional. Um, and it's not going to lead him into a risky place where he gets so angry that he then starts to become angry with other people that he cares about. Um, I definitely think. You know, it's about helping him find a professional who can offer him the containment, you know, that, that sense of safety and a space where he can process this and I think it is it's about him working out the narrative as he understands it and how he integrates it into his sense of self and also his narrative to the world. And that sense of judgment and particularly the judgment of his parents, which you can see, he doesn't want to have to face because he would find that really difficult.
C: Yeah. Okay. Uh, let's bring him back in.
Tanya: What did you do? Did you write anything? Were you able to write anything? 
D: So I wrote something to myself to kind of remind myself of inheritance and heritage and you know, all of the things you have inherited from the man that you have no biological connection with.
T: You're getting quite emotional telling me about it. Do you feel able to read it to me? 
D: Yeah, I can read that. 
T: Okay.
D: Danny, take a moment now to think about everything you have inherited, both your love for, and your complete lack of talent in the game of cricket, your love and spontaneous crying at sport, your kindness and your generosity, your sense of humor, your taste in film and literature. Your sense of responsibility for, for the kids. These are some of the things that make you, you. That have enabled you to get this far and will enable you to go further, still be proud of who you are now as well. See this as a chance to add to the pot. This takes nothing away from you. It adds to you. You are better for this. You are of mixed heritage, try and hold onto the fact that it will be fun. Learning about your heritage. You will have fun with the girls learning about this together, but most of all, take pride, hold your head up and start engaging with this. It's not as scary as you think. It's just like eating an elephant…
T: bite by bite and you're tearful now. 
D: Yeah.
T: Because?
D: I feel like I've got a bit more power now to start talking about it. That, that, that kind of feels like a possibility now, which you know this morning it didn't. 
T: It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think what you were also saying, which I think. It does happen in situations like this. People close to you are coming at you with their perception. It's all from a good place to protect you, but it has, it's not very helpful. Is it when other people tell you how they think you should feel?
D: No. 
T: What I love about what you just wrote, you affirmed yourself and then you said, that's the pot. I like me. I'm alright, I am good with me. And then you said, so this doesn't take anything away. It adds. And that is absolutely correct. It doesn't take away who your father is. The man who probably imbued your love of cricket and literature, perhaps I don't know, but the man who I can see has been a very important role model in your life, who you miss hugely. You miss him so much, so, so much. Doesn't take that away. It doesn't make him any less of your father. The father who raised you to be the man, you are, it adds something. Therefore you have nothing to feel guilty about, ashamed about or embarrassed, where you want to go with that, if you want to meet the man who is biologically, your father is your decision, but the mixed heritage thing, it could be something exciting, something that perhaps you'd always wondered about as you said, I think I've lived in denial for almost 40 years. And I think that is a big 180 for you. So what do you think the next step for you is?
D: I need to carve out a space for more of this kind of interaction. 
T: I agree. 
D: So, I mean, there's a lot for me to be working on. 
T: Do you still feel afraid? 
D: My fear is it's quite easy to let all of those good intentions fall by the wayside in the interest of just getting through another day.
T: It’s imperative for you. It's important. You carry on what you've started here today. I'd start journaling as well. A lot of people find it really helpful sometimes that, you know, you've got this stuff going on and you just don't quite know where to place it or what to do with it. And you just start writing and as you're writing and you're processing, it's amazing what you can you can find, even if it's just a release, but sometimes journaling enables you to make some discoveries around the narrative that you hadn't, you hadn't really worked out when it was just rattling around in your head. So that might help as well. 
D: Okay. Like in, in a really good way, I feel like I've, I've done a really seriously hard day's work.
T: Yeah, me too. It's been a pleasure though. Thank you. 
D: Thank you.
Claudia: If this isn't too weird, a question, what's the biggest thing you've gleamed. If you like from your chat with Tan?
D: What you're experiencing may not be normal or feel normal, but your reaction to that is normal and that's that's okay. 
C: It's especially hard because of the pandemic, because you haven't been able to go, I need to go to the pub with a mate. You're in a vacuum where the thoughts just go round and round. Like the enormity of it grows. 
D: Actually I've been living a little, it's kind of like a little mental version of that, where I was scared to, to engage with the outside world. And you know, maybe now I can, I can start thinking about that. 
C: And just as a sister to a brother I'm very close to. I’m like the fact that you might, not rushing, sisters are good and she loves you. So when you're ready, it will be brilliant that you can talk to her. Cause I imagine she's completely desperate. You have to look after you, but I'm just saying, 
D: Yeah.
C: I had to say that out loud. Cause my brother Oli will be listening, going tell him, um, thank you so, so much for coming on the show are you pleased you did?
D: Yes, I am very much so. 
C: Well, we are so grateful and please let us know what happens won’t you.
D: I will do.
C: Um, Tan, I found that second chat with Danny. Fascinating and what I loved is when I just said, you know, what have you taken away? And he said that it's okay. 
T: Yeah. 
C: I mean.
T: Yeah, I cheered. I mean what he found out is a, it's like an assault on your identity, isn't it? 
C: Yeah. 
T: It makes you question who you are, where you've come from. Makes you question everything. It's just so great that today's chat. You know, he was able to see that it's. It's safe to talk and it's safe to connect with his feelings that didn't turn him into a sort of angry raging, unpredictable man, which I think he was afraid of. But second of all, and that was the bit about it's okay that he suddenly really was able to say this doesn't change me. 
C: Yeah. 
T: It's adding to me who I am, how I know myself aspects of me that my father has given me. And that for me was my moment where I just punched the air with joy because it's like, absolutely. Absolutely. Don't let this tear down your entire sense of self.
C: Can I, my final question to you was about journaling and, and why that helps?
T: The process of journaling is that it allows you just to free yourself up in terms of. You know, just releasing some of what's bouncing around in your head, but also you're moving it through different. If you like a different set of receptors in your brain. You'll, you know, in order to process thoughts into words on paper, you have to kind of rationalize them and create structure and sentences and meaning, and then already you're giving it more of a narrative feel so for a lot of people, sometimes it's just really helpful to make a bit of order out of what can feel like chaos. And sometimes journaling doesn't have to be any of that. It can be affirmatory, it can be gratitude. I have a lot of people who are struggling with their mental health, who, who just want to remind themselves of things that they can look at or experience or know about themselves or others around them that make them feel not depressed. So journaling can be really helpful. It also means that that you can go back. You can read, you can read back.
C: See progress
T: See progress, or you can go back and think, oh, I remember writing about this. What was I, what was I, where did I get to with at that time? So it's just a, it's just a nice way to connect with yourself and to rationalize it so that it feels it just feels a little bit clearer. 
C: Thank you. I'm going to go and write in my journal just your name and then five massive hearts. 
T: Are you? 
C: Yes I am.
T: That feels kind of teenage and sweet. Thank you. 
C: No problem.
T: See you soon. 
C: Bye darling. 
T: Bye. 
C: Just so you know, we always follow up with our guests providing useful contacts and information. Some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode. Please do share this podcast. You can send links direct from the app. If you like, you can also follow to get new episodes as soon as they come out. Also, we'd love to know what you think. Do rate comment and give us a five-star review. It all helps us to make more.
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Maya: It's just completely different from what I've been thinking and hiding from and scared of for the last 30 years now.
C: This podcast was made by the team at Somethin’ Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the assistant producer is Grace Laiker. The producer is Selina Ream and the executive producers are Claire Solan and Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening.