Claudia: Please note that this episode contains some emotional and sometimes disturbing discussions about infant mortality. This may not be suitable for all listeners. 
Maya: And so from that point, I suppose you're a grownup cause you know, that people disappear from that point. I'm scared that people will leave though. I didn't realize that for a long time.
Claudia: This is How Did We Get Here? with me Claudia Winkleman and my fantastic friend, clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron. Each episode, we look at some of the difficulties people are facing in their daily lives. Tan talks to our guests and I listen in to try and understand what has unfolded. And then I'll ask maybe for some clarification on some of the issues that have arisen. Please do forgive us if there are any sound glitches or any background noises, because we are of course recording this from our respective homes. 
This time we meet Maya who is married with five children. When Maya was 11, she tried to resuscitate her baby brother who died of cot death. Occasionally Maya is triggered and the memory of what happened returns to her, Maya gets very upset when she can't fix things and wonders whether it's a result of that early tragedy. She's only just starting to realize that she has suffered grief in her life. 
Maya: It's just completely different from what I've been thinking and hiding from and scared of for the last 30 years now.
C: Let's go and meet Maya.
Maya. Thank you so much for taking part.
M: You're welcome.
C: Tell me why you’re here.
M:  I wanted to just really work out when things became hard in my life. Why I would go back to a place. W where something happened when I was a young girl, I'm trying to work out how it's, how it's formed me. I know we all have experiences that, that form us, um, but I want to really understand how much that's fed into my personality and what I can do about that going, going forward. So I can be better, I think, and more. Even, I would say.
C: Even would be excellent. 
M: That's it. 
C: Tell me about your current situation, who you live with and your family and then we'll go back to, as you just mentioned, something that happened to you when you were a little girl.
M: I live with my husband. I have five children. My oldest is 20 and he's in Russia at the moment randomly. So I have four left in the house. So I have an 18 year old trying to do A-Levels, then the other three go down to 10 so there's a lot of homeschooling going on at the minute and different laptops and screens and trying to juggle all four of them you know.
C: t
C: Tell me what happened when you were a little girl. 
M: So when I was 11, my, my parents went away for the night to celebrate my dad's birthday. And, um, my sister run in and, um, said Christopher's not breathing. So Christopher was my four-month-old little brother, and so I went in to his bedroom and, um, picked him up and he was um, floppy. I put him on the bed. There was a cot and there was a bed in there. I tried to resuscitate him. So it's not a nice thing to have to remember. 
C: I'm so sorry. 
M: I was just 11 and, um, I couldn't do anything. My sister had rung for an ambulance, but they never found us we had, we had a name for the house. And that's what they say, don't they for emergencies, you need a number because they can't find your house. If you just have a name. And it was called, um, Burley, which sounded like Burkby, which is nearby where I live. And, um, so the, the ambulance went there and they couldn't find him and I just remember my, I think my grandad turned up and they took him. The poor babysitter can you imagine? I think she was only about 14 or 15. She was only a little bit older and then we were taken to my grandparents' house and the only thing I remember is being in my aunt's bed and she was saying, it will be fine. We were kind of laughing. And then we got up because my parents came and as soon as they walked in, I, I knew. And so from that point, I suppose, You're a grownup cause you know, that people disappear. From that point I'm scared that people will leave though I didn't realize that for a long time. From then on if my husband’s 10 minutes late I'm thinking his dead in a ditch. The only thing that's a consequence of it. I can't watch first aid. You know, sometimes when at school or in groups you'll do first aid 
C: Or on the television.
M: There's a point about that. I think on television once I heard how you should be careful with babies, because you can break their ribs and so from that point, I actually thought that I’d, I actually thought that I might have killed him. 
C: You didn’t.
M: Which is something to carry isn't it like that was, I remember that thought and I remember burying it as this really scary thought, like, oh my gosh, I am really glad, and it came each child that I had it cemented it more that I have those memories and not my mum, because can you imagine. And I can't imagine having those images of trying to save my own child. It was bad enough that it was my brother.
C: You are also a mother to I know both sons and daughters and you will have also worked out how young 11 is. 
M: And that was what I was just going to say. My daughter. She's 12 now, but at the time when she was 11, it hit me like a ton of bricks, that point of no, I just, I protected my mom. I think part of the reason it came up, I started to listen to a podcast about grief and I thought to myself, I haven't really lost anyone I don't know why I'm listening to this. It was just because I liked the host and I thought maybe I'll be able to help people who are going through grief, you know, if I listened to it, I'll be able to be more helpful, I’m always trying to learn things. And the more I listened, the more I just was, was amazed at how similar I was to some of the people on there. And I realized, oh, a lot of those things come from. Come from that event. And maybe it was some trauma that I haven't addressed, you know? 
C: Well, what happened to you and your whole family was deeply traumatic. Just tell me where you are in your family. Were you the eldest? 
M: Yeah. 
C: So your sister came to find you. 
M: So I was 11 and she will have been, let me think about the timing. Yes, she was 10. 
C: And do you talk about it with her? I'm just interested. 
M: Maybe, because it started to come up and we talked about it and I asked her about her experience. My parents didn't talk about him. I wondered about that. And something happened last year. That meant they talked about it a little bit. My cousin is just a little bit younger than me died by suicide last summer. So, and so my dad's brother, my uncle and his wife, they had to come and quarantine, you know, before the funeral. And of course they were talking about the loss of their child and asking my parents about it. And it, it brought all that back for them. It was difficult to see my mum at the funeral upset. I think it opened up. 
C: Yes. 
M: It made me worried again, that I'd caused her pain. You know, when I saw her upset, it's so silly. I understand that. It's not very rational. 
C: No, you're just so kind, but I am so pleased you are going to talk to Tanya today. She's going to look after you. You're going to be fine. So I will leave. I'm going to talk to you at the end. And I leave you in her hands, but thank you, Maya. 
M: Okay. Thank you, Claudia. Nice to talk to you.
Tanya: You get it logically. You just can't understand why emotionally it still has the effects on you that it does. That's the impression that I get from listening to you. 
M: I think I'm always just that little girl trying to fix it. And I did. I didn't, I didn't fix it. That's difficult. I think from that point I was, um, I was not a little girl anymore and I had to take care of my parents. It was particularly difficult for my mom and possibly my dad who knows what goes on privately. He seemed to, to be able to put it on a shelf and, um, you know, I think I just tried quite hard to be pretty good. It's had to come out. I think I just pushed it down in those teenage years. And then when I had my children, I specifically remember making a conscious choice, a very, very conscious choice to not worry about my children breathing when they were babies.
T: That must've been incredibly difficult for you. 
M: I don't think I could have that in my mind and look after my children, I don't think, um, I was very young when I had my first, I was only 21 and after, after my brother that died, my parents went on to have another baby. And his due date was the date of the, the anniversary of his death. Can you imagine that going to, going to say, you know, what's your due date and it's the date that your baby has just just died. And so they brought him two weeks earlier than the date. And so my mom decided to have a monitor, to be able to tell if he stopped breathing. In those days, it would have had things attached, you know, kind of sticky things to this machine and he was a robust little guy and as he got older, he would pull them off. And so this alarm would go off. I cannot tell you how distressing that was to hear an alarm go off and to run into the same room that my other brother had died in.
T: That's retraumatizing. Isn't it. Every time it happens, you would have gone in, you would have retraced your steps. You would have run to the, to the bed or the cot you would, I mean, that must have been absolutely horrific for you.
M: Probably more for my mom as well. Right? 
T: Absolutely. Of course. But I mean, the person who went in and found Christopher. Floppy, which is how you described it to Claud. The person who picked him up and tried to resuscitate him was a child. And that child was you. It's like a living flashback. It's, it's, it's actually constant trauma endlessly. So at the age of 11, you had to become the parental child. You had to be the child. That was good. And made sure your parents were okay. And. You also had to keep one ear out for whether your next brother was going to perhaps have problems at night so you were constantly hypervigilant. This level of anxiety probably became your normal. I'm curious about how much that anxiety continues to play itself out in your adult life. 
M: I did an English literature degree and now I mostly read non-fiction because I feel like I need to be learning something. 
T: So you have to be productive all the time every minute. 
M: Yes. Quite often if I watch TV, if I feel really guilty. And so often I will, I iron whilst I do it or I will make something. 
T: And, and you said, you know, time is a big issue for me. I don't want to waste time, but I suppose you more than most people from a very young age are acutely aware of the fragility of life that we're all mortal. It can come at any time when you least expect it. So I wonder whether that also compels you to pack your days. Feel like you have to get on with things, do things. I mean, you must be absolutely exhausted. How do you keep it all going?
M: It's just a really strong drive to be better. I find it hard if I don't do something very well, and it's not, it's not things like cooking or whatever, but it's relationships. So if I, if I feel like I have failed in, in relationships, I find it particularly difficult. I put a big wall around my heart because I'm scared of being vulnerable because it's painful. Isn't it? 
T: And you're scared of loss. We can mitigate the pain of loss if we don't allow ourselves to get too close to people.
M: That’s it and after I'd had my first two boys, I miscarried and I was 17 weeks. So I had to give birth. It was a little boy and that was not nice. They sent me home. They couldn't do it straight away. So I had to go home for a couple of days. That was very uncomfortable. 
T: So, sorry, just to be clear so you were at home for two days with your pregnancy, knowing that the baby was, had died. 
M: Yeah. 
T: That must have been horrendous horrendous for you.
M: It was not very pleasant. And the midwife for my closure was saying, you need to look at the baby to have closure and I did not want to look at the baby and I didn't, and I'm really glad about that I think it would have brought back those memories. And I was only in my mid twenties at the time I don’t think I was ready to look at it all and understand it all.
T: This little boy. Does he have a name? 
M: No, because I, I mean, I, I hesitated to say baby to you because I usually would say it. I don't think I can grieve for a baby. I had, I had to just think. And that's why I didn't look. After that pregnancy, it was worrying to go for scans for the rest of my other children. It's not logical, but when I would get past that 17 weeks, I would calm down a little bit. 
T: Of course. You know, you talked to Claud earlier about when your daughter became 11 and how triggering that was. You talked about when your youngest boy, you talked about when he was four months old and him being the fifth child, like. Christopher was, it is perfectly normal that these anniversaries, I mean, you've talked about how the child that came after your brother, Christopher was due on the anniversary of his death. I mean, you can see how, if there have been traumatic life experiences that have never been fully emotionally processed they just sit there and they get triggered. And I suppose the challenge for you losing your third pregnancy, the challenge for you is it's just, it's another confirmation of the risk of life you don't want to look at it, you call the baby, it, the baby doesn't have a name. I can understand why, but I wonder whether there is something around that experience for you. That still needs to be processed as well. 
M: Just a year after the miscarriage, I pulled into my cul-de-sac and there was an almighty scream and I thought someone is being murdered or they’re giving birth and it was that kind of guttural scream. And I went and knocked on my neighbor's door. And, um, she said to come in and she was sat there in the downstairs toilet with her two year old looking pretty traumatized with a baby. She just had a baby on the toilet. 
T: Oh my goodness.
M: And there was no one there so, so she had, she just has back pain so she didn't realize she was in labor until she was pushing. And so I I'm, I'm scrambling to ring an ambulance and to help. Um, and the, the baby was a funny color, I suppose, because the cord had not been cut yet.
T: Mmmm.
M: So I rang for an ambulance and they're telling me, they're saying, get a towel and get the placenta out of the toilet and let's try to help this lady and it all happened very quickly. And I will admit I was, I was flapping. I was horrendous. And then the, the medics came in and I think, um, they all took over and I just went back to my house and put my shopping away. It was so strange. But for the rest of the day, had this hideous feeling. Really worried that I'd been so rubbish and I'd flapped so badly that something would have happened to her baby. Her husband came later that night with some flowers and chocolates, I think to say, thank you. I don't know if I directly said it, but I just wanted to say is the baby okay. But did not feel good about being rewarded for, for flapping under difficult circumstances, you know.
T: It feels like you still carry the guilt and the shame of your sense when you were 11 that you could have done better. Oh, I'm sorry. I can see you're really distraught. I'm so sorry, Maya. I feel that the guilt and shame then gets played out through this sort of almost these manic defenses you have. What I mean by manic defenses is this constant need to be productive. Having to learn never waste time, always be on the go, this need for productivity. This need to fix things, manage things, support people, but whenever you do something heroic, like run into your neighbor's house and find her on the toilet, having just given birth. All you can do is decide that it just wasn't good enough and I think that's because you still haven't allowed yourself to forgive yourself for what you perceive was the major catastrophic experience you perceive in terms of your inability to save Christopher's life. You've been trying to make up for that ever since. 
Claudia: Um, can I just stop you there? So manic defensives I mean, what was so extraordinary. I mean here's a woman with five children, still young, totally together who doesn't stop, like she doesn't even read fiction cause she thinks that's too much of a treat too much of a waste of time. And you said something about, well, yes, you've got manic defensives, what is that? 
T: It's a psychodynamic psychoanalytic, uh, concept. So it's, it's about how we find ways to cope with our underlying issues. If you like to put it very, very simply and, and fundamentally, you know, this idea of manic defenses comes from this sense of the more busy I am. The more productive. I am the less I have to think about, or I risk the thoughts and images of trauma or things I don't want to think about coming into my head and also it's about control. I mean, a lot of us can relate to this, you know, in the sense that when life feels chaotic, you know, for some people you tidy out that cupboard you, you know, you just do stuff. 
C: I bake. 
T: I know you bake.
C: all the time. If it gets a lot, suddenly my husband will go, is something up? And I go, why? And he says because you've got a carrot cake and you're now whipping up brownies. What's going on?
T: That's where relationships are very strong when we know each other in the sense that we can see in each other's behavior, what we're struggling with. And I think with Maya, you can see, you know, she's always busy, obviously, again, getting back to breath. If I sit still, if I read a beautiful novel, if I listened to some music, if I go for a walk and I'm not listening to a history podcast or learning a language, I'm just in the moment, that sense of being mindful in the moment can be very threatening for people who experience flashbacks or other forms of trauma memory, because there's that sense of an empty space will be filled with something and if it's filled with what I think it's going to be filled with, I'm going to avoid that at all costs. So I'm going to keep busy. 
C: How extraordinary.
Tanya: To me, you seem to be struggling with complex post-traumatic stress disorder, and that's something that I could help you understand, so we can work out how you can have the support that you need, I'd say 30 years, a bit too late, but nevertheless, the support, you need to be able to separate these horrendous traumas from who you are and how you live your life constantly trying to be productive, perfectionist, and fix and control things.
M: With my children. I made a conscious decision. I, I said to myself, You would have to be there the very second they stopped breathing. It's impossible. So you will not hover over them and check on them if they're breathing. And I told myself that when I had my first son and that seemed to do the job really well. With my fifth son, he got a bit chesty at one point and so the doctor gave me, is it a nebulizer? Is that the right word? I don't know, it was a strange, I suppose, because he wouldn't be able to breathe in a puff from a usual.
T: So like a little mask that you put over for him to breathe? Aww you're grimacing and you look, oh, tell me what's happened there because I said mask and I sort of mimicked putting my hand over my face while we were talking.
M: It was so difficult and that’s what I had to do. I had to hold a mask over his face for 10 seconds and I think it's the closest I've ever come to having a panic attack.
T: I’m not surprised.
M: I just could not. And I didn't, I didn't know why at that point, um, this was 10 years ago. He's 10. Now that, of course it was bringing back some repressed memories of, of, of doing a similar thing to my brother. So strange with all the babies I mean, just what, why, why with all the babies?
T: Well it keeps prodding at the same wound as well. Doesn't it. Plus then when your youngest, who's also the same in birth order and gender as Christopher was, he then required you to put a mask over his face, which I mean again, and when I say ir I can see you, I mean, you literally had a physiological response haven't you. Just describe to me what you're feeling now.
M: I don't know if I can, it's fairly horrifying. My whole body feels revulsion
T: Keep talking
M: Having to, having to hold that down on his face. Yeah. And so I don't know why. Maybe that's because it's associated with going on his face and not bringing back memories of me actually trying to make Christopher breathe again. So I suppose it gets a bit mixed up, doesn't it? 
T: But it is all fundamentally about breath. Isn't it? It's about breathing. 
M: I'm always chasing my tail. I'm always trying to, to buy myself some time. 
T: And that's why I'm saying, I think it's complex. Post-traumatic stress disorder. It's multiple events that happen. Regularly enough when they happen, they trigger in you a significant feeling of panic, fear, just completely overwhelmed. I'm just wondering, cause there's a lot to process and we need to take a break, I think. Would it be helpful for you to think a little bit about one aspect of this, which could be. Think about you as an 11 year old, you could write a letter to your 11 year old self. Say, just want to tell you what I think I've worked out a kind letter. The other thing I want you to think about is whether or not as part of this process, it might be important to look a little bit more at your third child who you lost and whether actually you need to mark that in some way to be able to say goodbye to him because I feel he still sits somewhere. How'd you feel about this? If we have a sort of 15, 20 minute break?
M: Yeah, that’s fine.
T: Please don't do the ironing while you're doing it right.
Claudia: You've mentioned PTSD before, but you said that hers was something else. Can you explain, CPTSD.
T: PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder is, is generally when there's been a single event some horrible trauma and after the sort of few weeks of shock of past what is left, isn't something that feels processed as an autobiographical memory, but it keeps repeating itself through flashbacks and intense, um, experiences of anxiety that can be triggered in a, in a variety of ways often very random. CPTSD is when it becomes more complex and that's generally because it is due to repeated trauma. The reason I mentioned this with Maya is because obviously she had the awful experience at the age of 11, when she was trying to resuscitate her brother who I think had already died, but then we move on through her life and we see other events linked to quite similar issues. You just see these repeated trauma that almost layer one on top of each other. If the original trauma hasn't been really processed and obviously from what she's described to us, it wasn't fully discussed in the family. She wasn't really given support, you know, she, she just has this unprocessed single event when she was 11 with her brother dying, it just layers and layers and layers. And you can see her response to that being very sort of trauma informed. If you like. 
C: Um, I know this is a podcast, so I don't want to annoy anyone, but what was extraordinary to see was Maya’s, I want to use the word sort of. Violent recoil. When you talked to her about the mask, I'm not exaggerating am I?
T: As soon as we mentioned something very specific. So in her case, it's placing the mask over her child's face to help him breathe. Um, she had a physical as well as an emotional reaction, and we both saw that it's like a flashback, you know, you could see she was there. In the room with her baby, putting the mask over his face. And of course that has such narrative trauma connections to the issue of, of what happened when she was 11 and her little baby brother, breath and oxygen and babies and you know, not breathing and all that. It's just so traumatic for her.
C: Finally, I just wanted to ask you this. I think people will find it very interesting about what brings to light the fact that she contacted us, uh, knew she had to talk is her own 11 year old daughter. And she suddenly. Looked at her and realized I was that age. Does that often happen with CPTSD? 
T: Yes it’s very common. You know, I see it a lot in people who have been sexually abused as children when you know, and have done a lot of work on it. Um, but then when their child. Generally of the same gender becomes the age they were, when they experienced, you know, the horrific abuse that they experienced as children, um, it can really, really stir things up again because, you know, there's this idea of projective identification, you know, you identify with another being another person and, you know, you have this sense of sort of projection around onto them. Yeah. There can be that sort of moment where a child. Once child hits the age, that one was when there was a particular really traumatic incident and suddenly that becomes real again. 
C: Okay, well, let's get Maya back in.
Tanya: We had two tasks. If you like, one was, you were going to try and make sense of what you and I talked about by writing a letter to that 11 year old girl that you were. And I also asked about your third child, who I felt you hadn't quite fully said goodbye to him. And maybe we could start with that if that's okay and then we'll, we'll move on to your letter if, if that's okay. 
Maya: Okay. I wished I'd been able to take his body with me is that so strange?
T: No, not at all. Not at all strange.
M: Um, I think that was the hardest thing not taking anything home because I'd done it twice before, and it's a brilliant feeling. Isn't it? When you bring your baby home and like, I got a card through the post that told me when they had cremated the baby, and that was really upsetting.
T: Really upsetting. In this part of our conversation you're saying the baby, when you first talked to me about it earlier, you called, you said it we're moving on narratively to a little person who has meaning, not the baby, your baby. Would he have had a name? Did you know, have you ever thought of him in terms of a name?
M: No, because I suppose that that was what I was going to the scam to find out what. What sex it was and that would have come then after. It had a knock on effect, I really, really tried to not be attached to my third pregnancy. And it's impossible. It's impossible. How do you not love? I mean, I, I love them when even just when they're growing and they're moving, there's just this insane connection isn't there. So there's something that you've created and that's inside you. And I couldn't, I couldn't not love her. And, um, I did quite settle down. Once I found out it was a girl, it makes huge sense that you calmed down because you've lost two boy babies now in your life. 
M: I've never added my brother into being relieved that she was a girl. I've never thought about that before.
T: In terms of my sense that this is complex post-traumatic stress disorder, repeated trauma. Over a number of years in various guises in all of that. I wonder whether therefore you can see why I feel that somehow marking the passing of your third baby. Maybe there needs to be something more there for you, something maybe symbolic. So you can say goodbye to him. What do you think about that as a, as a thought, in terms of part of your healing? 
M: I feel sad again, I feel sad that I didn't let myself just grieve a little bit. 
T: You couldn't, then you can now, because you've bravely decided it's time to look at this and it's never too late.
M: How do I do that? Retrospective, grieving or. Soothing. How, how does that work? 
T: The way you do that is to find a relationship with someone who is trained in as a specialist in trauma informed therapy, where you can grieve for your brother for your third pregnancy. And I think actually most fundamentally for your 11 year old self, because
M: I was just going to say that 
T: Because you lost your childhood that day.
M: I asked my dad, did you ever see a post-mortem? But he said he didn't think there was one. And I was really, really disappointed that, cause it felt like that could be, that could help if it said that what the cause of death was. And he said the doctor came around the day after he asked me exactly what happened or maybe my sister, because I honestly, I cannot remember this and the doctor had said. You did so brilliantly, you did everything right. You did everything that you could. That was great. And I just was so shocked and I just wished that I could have remembered that and internalized it somehow, because I certainly have not remembered. And did not think that subsequently.
T: You were told that once the day after the most shocking, horrific experience of your young life, therefore you wouldn't have processed it, therefore you didn't remember it. I don't wish to sound critical of your parents, but fundamentally you should have had that said to you many, many times in many different ways. Over many years, you should have been put into a therapeutic environment where you would have had other people helping you at the age of 11, 12, 13, however long it took. One conversation the day after you tried to revive your four month old brother who had died in a cot death is not gonna hit the mark. You've been left all these years. Wondering whether you killed your brother and even now I see you, you put your head down and you weep and you haven't heard that enough. You haven't had the chance. For that 11 year old part of you to really process that she was incredible and did the best she could. And she did not cause the horrible, horrific loss of her brother, she tried her best to help him. So you wrote to her in our break. 
M: Yeah, it was hard. 
T: Oh, of course it is because you're only just beginning to look at it. Do you feel able to, to read 
M: I can, but it’s short but this is what I could manage. I’ve put:
“Dear Maya. I'm so sorry this happened to you. There was nothing you could have done, and it was brave of you to walk into that room. You might not think you've been affected by this yet, but let me tell you that you don't have to prove yourself. You are good enough as you are. You can't save everybody and fix everything. Just being there is enough.”
And then I wanted to put that you did a good job and you did your best, but I just, I, I couldn't quite get there yet. 
T: Okay. 
M: So I just finished it with:
“I will look after you. Everything will be okay.”
That was the best I could do. 
T: And that was amazing. How are you going to look after that part of yourself? 
M: I suppose it might help just even to read that over as a kind of affirmation, you know, just reminding myself that I try just to be a bit kinder to, to her.
T: Kinder in what way do you think, do you mean.
M: I suppose partly it's holding her, myself to a really, really high standard to, to expect that I could have fixed that I could have done any better. I just really, really hope I didn't hurt him. That bit is tricky.
T: That is tricky. As you remember it now, are you seeing yourself there? 
M: Yeah, I'm right in the room. 
T: And can you see him? 
M:I can see him. 
T:And he was floppy. You, you said to me earlier. 
M: I think he was floppy when I picked him up and laid him on the bed.
T: And he wasn't responsive?
M: No. 
T: Can you remember the color of his face?
M: I think it was just strange, you know, not, 
T: Not pink. 
M: No. 
T: So not oxygenated. 
M: I don't think so. It's more the detail of the things coming out of his nose you know.
T: Are you able to just describe what you mean by that? 
M: Sick I think 
T: So there was vomit there so it makes me wonder whether he had his asphyxiated on his vomit, that the vomit was there and as you pressed, it was coming out of his nose. Yeah. My instinct is Maya that he was not alive when you've found him. My instinct is that you did the right thing, but sadly, not at the right time, because I, my sense is that he he'd already gone. My clinical instinct is, and I think it echoes what the GP said to you the next day. There was nothing you could have done. You were so brave to try. 
M: Yeah, it's interesting too, to change it. It's just completely different from what I've been thinking and hiding from and scared off for the last, I mean it's 30 years now.
T: 30 years. 
M: I hope I come move forward and not be completely defined by it in the ways that are, that are negative because I think there's good that can come out of everything and hopefully that, that has a knock on effect with the pressure that it, that I take on to fix everything. 
T: But also we all, we all have to recognize that some things can't be fixed and sometimes things can be fixed, but we may not be that person. And sometimes things don't need to be fixed. We've just got to learn to live with whatever it is that is a bit difficult, uncomfortable, distressing and feel confident that that will pass. Do you know what I've noticed while we've been talking in this second half? The sun has started shining behind you? Can you see? there's blue sky.
T: Some people listening to me, you might think this is really cheesy, but I'm all for symbolic things around us. When we're grappling with such difficult and painful issues. The sun is shining.
M: It did start with rain this morning.
T: We've moved from rain into blue skies and sunshine, but maybe something quite hopeful in terms of our discussion.
M: It is just really helpful to, to be seen. I think you understand me and understand me but don't judge me for being frenetic and trying to save everything I think that's kind and helpful and soothing. So thank you for that. 
T: I think you're fantastic. You don't have to try so hard. 
M: That's really kind. I hope it’s true. 
T: Oh, so you're saying maybe I might be wrong. How dare you? That's your inner voice. It is true and what I want to say to you is accept the kindness as you see it, but make it your own, please, please, please. Be kind to yourself and that starts with forgiving yourself for something that you didn't actually ever do.
M: I will work really hard at that. I think it might take some time, but. 
T: I think you've done a ton of ton with me today. 
Claudia: When we first chatted, I said, why are you here and you said I'd like to feel a bit more even, but do you think. Well, maybe I'm maybe I'm I'm on my way to feeling a bit more even?
Maya: It's almost let it out into the light. Isn't it. It's not something shameful anymore that I have to cover up and go, oh, well this happened, but it wasn't that bad so I'll just cover it up again and so that feels like a beautiful gift actually. Um, and will definitely help me on my way and I hope that in the future, I can just, yeah, hold onto that and not go back to no, I've got to put it away and I'm ashamed.
C: hen I say goodbye in five minutes. Is your husband in the house?
M: He's not, no. 
C: I feel like, you know, when you would talk to us from the beginning, it's just there, but because you've painted 17 cupboards changed your water supplier and you have five children and you're homeschooling them and you're cooking three meals a day. You're basically living in your cutlery drawer, keeping the show on the road. Don't worry Mum can do it. I would like you to unravel with him a bit. I'm going to send you a list of novels, but when you are ready 
M: Fiction, oh my goodness. 
C: Fiction, you are ready. You studied English literature, you are ready for a rip roaring read, to be carried somewhere else. Don’t worry about learning you have learned enough, but please stay in touch with us and I'm so grateful again and I just wanted to say that thing at the end. It's enormous. That's what we've learnt. All of us doing this podcast. Sometimes enormous things happen. And it needs an enormous light on it and for the healing to begin. Does that make sense?
M: Yeah. Thank you so much. You've been very kind.
C: No, you're fantastic. Thank you so much.
I know we always do this, but I just think we should. An enormous thank you to Maya, she's going to be all right. Isn't she? 
T: Well the thing is she is all right. I think that's the most important thing. She, of course she will be great. And I'm really pleased actually that the conversation with Maya today has just enabled her to remove the fear and look at these traumatic events in her life from a different perspective, and be able to settle the complex post traumatic stress disorder responses she has enough for them to become autobiographical memories, but not to remain. Having this choke hold around her and that the way they still sometimes do.
C: Maya wrote a letter. I love, you know, I love it. When somebody writes a letter, I think she's on the path. 
T: How do you make sense of what feels so overwhelming to you at the moment and what, and once we've made sense of something already, we’re well, on the way to being able to process whatever it is that has been overwhelming us for so many years. So yeah, it, today felt like a day where I was able to do what I love doing with someone who, who really wanted it and I think will really benefit from it so good day for me. Definitely. 
C: Thank you very much. I'd love to pretend that we were going to go off and run through a field, but we're not you're in your house, I'm in mine. 
T: But you know what I would have to say, Claud is with your manic defenses. If there are a few hundred brownies kicking around a small delivery of baked goods onto my doorstep, would not be a problem 
C: No problemo. My son has his university interview. There are 300 baked goods downstairs. We're not even having savory for lunch. We just having right, can you pass me the lemon drizzle? 
T: Well, any left, you know where I live.
C: I'm sending. Bye darling.
T: Bye.
C: As discussed we've passed on some useful contacts and information to Maya, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode.
If you liked this podcast, please do share it, subscribe to get new episodes, comment, give us a five star review if you liked it, it helps us to keep making these.
If you're interested in taking part in, how did we get here, please email with your issue to how@somethinelse.com that's how, how@somethinelse.com, something without the g.
Next time we meet Annie.
Annie: Up until this morning, I would probably, if I'm being really honest, I would have classed him just as a bad person, but is he? I don't know.
C: This podcast was made by the team at Somethin’ Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the assistant producer is Grace Laiker. The producer is Selina Ream and the executive producers are Claire Solan and Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening.