Lottie: It's something that I can control. Tanya Byron: How did childhood feel? Lottie: Yeah, like, I had no control. Tanya Byron: Absolutely. Claudia W.: Please note that this episode contains some emotional content, including discussion around loss of parents and a sibling which may not be suitable for all listeners. This is How Did We Get Here with me, Claudia Winkleman and clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron. We address some of the difficulties people come up against in their lives, and with those close to them. In each episode, Tanya talks to our guests in a one-to-one session, and I ask questions in the beginning, middle and end. Today we meet Lottie. She's a single mother with boys age seven and eleven. Lottie experienced a huge amount of sadness growing up. She lost both parents when she was young. Her father died when she was five. Her mother, when she was 10 and her brother was tragically murdered when she was 22. She finds it hard to control her feelings of anxiousness towards her ex-husband. Lottie: Like when, when their dad drops them off or picks them up, like there's always anxiety around that time. Tanya Byron: So he's a trigger. Lottie: -I struggle with. Oh a massive trigger. Yeah. Even if he texts me, Claudia W.: Let's go and meet Lottie. Lottie first of all, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We're incredibly grateful. Tell me why, why are you here? Lottie: I think it's just to try to find a bit of peace. Claudia W.: So do you want to start at the beginning if you like, tell me about when you were little. Lottie: When I was five, my dad passed away, he had a heart-attack Claudia W.: Sorry. Lottie: And then when I was 10, my mom passed away. I ended up going to live with my sister who had a couple of children and I had a brother. Claudia W.: How old was your sister? Lottie: She was 20 years older than me. Claudia W.: Okay. Lottie: She was from a previous marriage. On my mom's side. Claudia W.: And you mentioned a brother, how old is he? Lottie: Uh, he was two years older. Claudia W.: Did both of you go and live with your sister? Lottie: Yes. Claudia W.: And how was that Lottie: Hard. You just feel like lost. You know, it's like you're floating, I guess, and it's like, you can't ground yourself. Claudia W.: It sounds so hard. So your sister in essence became like a mother figure? Lottie: Yeah, she tried. Yeah. I can't say it was a bad environment, but it, it wasn't very like loving or anything like that. And we never spoke about my parents, which I, now I'm older, I look back and I think it's really, really sad. Claudia W.: Yeah. Lottie: We never celebrated, um, like birthdays or just never got spoken about it's like this big secret. Claudia W.: And were you and your brother close? Could you rely on, I know you were only- Lottie: No. Claudia W.: -10 and 12. No. Goodness. So then what happened? Lottie: I think by the time I was 16, I decided to move out. So I moved in with a friend and , was quite happy. Um, I wasn't really seeing my brother. He'd got in trouble with the police and he was taking drugs, and, so we wasn't really in contact. And in these days you never had mobile phones. You never had social media. People wasn't accessible unless you consciously rang their house phone or knew where they lived. Claudia W.: At that time you could, you can lose people right? Lottie: Yeah, so, my brother took a path that he kind of seeked trouble, I guess. And then he was murdered. Claudia W.: Ah. Lottie: I think I must've been about 22? So It's difficult to talk about in a way, because I don't want to sound cold, but we wasn't close. And I think if there was ever any contact about him, it was always that, you know, someone had seen him, you know, and he was off of his face on drugs or he'd stolen from somebody or he, it was always negative. Claudia W.: Yeah. Lottie: Like surrounding him. Claudia W.: But I'm just thinking of you and this litany of pain. Because even if you weren't close, he was a product of your mom and dad. When you were little, when you were three and five, you know, all of, I mean, it's still, it's too much for a young woman to go through, I would say.. Lottie: I just think, when, when you, you get older, you look back and you just think it, this could have been different. And think that's, what's sad because I think I'd, I'd love to have a brother. You can't put it right now anyway, because that was taken from him. Claudia W.: I know you weren't living with her, but did you keep a relationship going with your sister? Lottie: There is a relationship, but it's not a good one. She became quite difficult to be around. She's an alcoholic, so. Yeah, I think for my own good, it just was easier to not be too involved. Claudia W.: And how did you get yourself together? Then what happened? Because I believe you then married didn't you? And you've got two lovely children. Lottie: I've just got one of those natures, I think where I just get on with things. Not that it doesn't hurt. Not that I don't break it down and I don't cry, but I just always keep moving. It's not in me to kind of, stop and break down. Yeah. Like I said, I had really good friendships, which helped. I've had some really good people around me. I met my husband, ex-husband now, in my early twenties. Yeah, and we got married and had children and yeah. Claudia W.: And happiness. Lottie: Definitely happiness. Claudia W.: Tell me about your ex-husband. Lottie: Yeah, I mean, I thought that we had a good marriage and, really good friends as well. Like I felt we was together for about 15 years. He started saying he was depressed because of work. He was saying it wasn't me and I believed him and I could just see that things weren't going the right way. But naively, I just never, ever thought he'd hurt me. I just always thought- Claudia W.: Yeah. Lottie: -It would put itself right and, the children were young at this point as well and you're trying to be a parent and it's not always about this other person. And then slowly, slowly it become, he wasn't happy and he didn't know what he wanted. He didn't know it he wanted to be in the relationship anymore. Claudia W.: That must have been a terrible shock. Lottie: I didn't understand why. As the time went on I just then found out that there was somebody else and, that was obviously a big part in him going and leaving. Claudia W.: But horrible to be deceived. Lottie: Yeah. I think that's my biggest issue. He knew what I'd been through in my life and he didn't have to do that to me. And that's what I think I'll never forgive him. Claudia W.: No. How do you get on now and what's it like co-parenting? Obviously you're the main parent, but he sees the kids still. Lottie: Yeah, he still sees the children, um, is still involved and they love him. Yeah. Like I'm quite an easy going person. I'd rather just put, you know, how I really feel to one side and just get on with him for the sake of the kids. Claudia W.: The woman and he had relationship with, is he with her now? Lottie: Yeah. Claudia W.: So that's hard too. Lottie: Yeah. Claudia W.: What would you like from Tan today? Lottie: You kind of grieving the fact that you're now a single parent, trying to raise a family, watching the person that walked away from you do it again with someone else. But I do think the root of my issues are down to my childhood. I think if, if my childhood was different, I probably would cope better. Claudia W.: Through everything you've been through you are obviously smashing this. You are a brilliant mum. You try and stay in touch with your sister. You find good friendship groups. They look after you. You're knocking it out the park. Let me just say that as an observer, you are, and I want you to feel really good about yourself and Tan will come in now, but thank you so much for coming, thank you, thank you. Tanya Byron: Everybody who's listening will notice, and I definitely noticed that you are a woman who is incredibly resilient. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Right. Let's start with that. Tell me about your resilience. What do you respect about yourself? What do you like about your self? Lottie: Like, I don't like conflict. I don't like anger. I try and be fair and see the good in people and look at all sides of stories and things like that. Tanya Byron: So you try and be nonjudgmental. You try and be open-minded you try and be inclusive in your thinking. Yeah. And I suspect you're the kind of friend that if there was a crisis in the middle of the night, you'd be a great person to call. I suspect you're good in a crisis. I suspect you're a real roll your sleeves up, I've got this, you know, kind of woman. That's my sense of you that you're dependable. You, other people can depend on you. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: I think the problem for you is though, I think you just don't know who you've ever been able to depend on. Lottie: Yeah, I think that's true. Tanya Byron: And you met a man and you fell in love and you had your two beautiful boys and he has significantly let you down. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: And that's making you tearful. Lottie: Yeah, it really hurts. I think it will always hurt. Tanya Byron: So it's something about who anchors you? Lottie: Myself. Tanya Byron: Yeah, and it potentially can feel quite lonely can't it? Lottie: Yeah, very lonely, very. I was thinking about it the other day. It's just, I fell a bit lost really. Tanya Byron: Yes. Lottie: I know. I'm not, you know, I've got a nice home, children, job, friends, but I feel lost. Tanya Byron: And I wonder whether it's particularly triggered by your ex. Lottie: Yeah, I think that's probably true, yeah. Tanya Byron: And when those feelings bubble up, how do they impact on you? Lottie: Like anger isn't my go to it's more sadness. I definitely get anxious. Tanya Byron: How does it manifest itself? Lottie: Not feeling comfortable and not feeling right, but not quite knowing why. And I can now, as I'm getting older realise that it's anxiety. Tanya Byron: Yes. I've noticed as we've been talking, you're very still, but I have this sense that you're a bit like a Swan. You know, what we see on the surface is this gliding, beautiful gliding across the pond. But underneath, I feel like there's a lot of activity going on. Isn't there? Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: I can hear it and I can see it. What did you say? You said, I'm sorry, again, rustly papers. I just get on with things you said to Claude, I just keep moving, but the price we pay for keeping going is that we do that by repressing what we're really feeling. So it sits inside. And then it manifests as anxiety, pain, sadness. Your boys, they're both on each side of the age you were when you lost your mom. Had you made that connection? Lottie: I know someone had said to me before that history has a pattern of like repeating itself. I know my son was about five when my marriage started to break down and I was, that kind of, was conscious in my head. Tanya Byron: You were five when your father died of a heart attack. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: When does the anxiety show itself? Because you're clearly amazing at holding it in, but I'm sure because you're normal, you're human being. There are moments when you can't. Lottie: Like when their dad drops them off or picks them up, like there's always anxiety around that time. Tanya Byron: So he's a trigger. Lottie: -I struggle with. Oh, massive trigger yeah. Even if he texts me. Tanya Byron: At oh, right. So you just see it ping in, you see his name and bang, you can feel that change in your physical, physiological state. So sometimes in these situations, and it's not just women to be fair, but people can then try and overly control their enviroment, you know? Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Do you ever kind of find yourself doing that where things have to be very tidy or things have to be in a certain place. Lottie: Oh yeah. Tanya Byron: Oh really? Lottie: I'm awful for it. Yeah- Tanya Byron: Talk me through that. Lottie: -really bad. I just, everything has to be, so. I can't cope if it's not. Tanya Byron: So if I came into your house now, would it look like a flipping, show house, like clean, tidy everything in its place. Lottie: If I knew you was coming a hundred percent, yeah. Everything has to be planned and routine, and I mean, it works, I mean, me and the kids get up, we get out, we get out the door where everyone's dressed ready, but it just works better for me. Tanya Byron: You know, I relate to that, but I'm just thinking, how routine is it? I mean, is there an order, a specific order? Do you, some people might have things they have to say in their head while they're doing certain things, or some people get very fixated on numbers and certain numbers have meaning and certain things have to be done that particular number of times, or. Lottie: No, I don't think I've got it like that. It's just more of a case of everything it has to be so. Tanya Byron: And if it's not so. Or if plans suddenly change, or if spontaneously there's a, hey, no, we're not doing that, let's do this. How does that impact on you? Lottie: I just don't cope very well. I just like shut down a bit really. It's just like, I can't cope. Tanya Byron: So you've heard of a condition called obsessive compulsive disorder where for some people this becomes, it becomes all encompassing. Given that you don't have OCD, i.e it wouldn't be a diagnosis because you're not hitting that sort of extreme level of rituals and routines and the things I described before, but you definitely have that need for things, as you say to be just, so what does that mean? Because the meaning is really important Lottie: It's something that I can control. Tanya Byron: How did childhood feel? Lottie: Yeah like, I had no control. Tanya Byron: Absolutely. By the age of 10, you were a veteran of life's cruel unpredictability. You were 10 years old. The part of your brain, the cortex at the front of the brain hadn't even developed wasn't anywhere near developed enough for you to really be able to process it. So for you, control is absolutely fundamental because you know how life can rip control away in the most painful way. And that's what your ex-husband did. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: So I think the reason he is your main trigger is because he absolutely smashed through your way of coping with the legacy from your childhood. And there was nothing you could do about it. Lottie: No. Tanya Byron: And I think that then opened the wounds because you've been managing them superficially by controlling in a way that's really good, but you've really worked to get that. It's been your plan. It's been the way you've controlled, how you felt. And just as you were in that place where you thought, you know what? I can give my children what I never had. Stuff that will feel like it's repairing your loss that was taken away. And now you feel lost. Lottie: Just not where I wanted to be. Claudia W.: Sorry, can I just stop you there and ask a question? She told you about her need for control, whether it's looking after the boys and being an excellent friend to everybody and just keeping everything, like you say, like a Swan gliding along, and then, because you saw something in her and you haven't done that in front of me before, when you said, can you tell me why that is? And she broke down. She sort of, you could see her whole face. She went [gasp] because there was no control, when I was growing up. And that felt like I didn't know what it felt like for you to be there and in the moment, but just as a person who was listening, something really slotted in. Tanya Byron: I think the reason I asked her to do that is because here's a woman who copes with loss, unpredictability, uncertainty, tragedy, all those awful kind of aspects of life that she's had in bucket loads from a tiny, tiny age. She deals with that by being super focused, super organized, super planned and super in control. Claudia W.: Yeah. Tanya Byron: I don't really just want to only inhabit an expert position with her. I don't want to be the person saying, so it's this. And can you see it's that? And I think it this. I think that for somebody, with her personality, her way of dealing with life could feel quite infantilizing. Could make her feel like a child. So in that moment, I spoke to the part of her that gets it and she became her own expert. It gave her some control back. Cause I knew she knew it. Because I could see in her face as I started to sort of unwrap that narrative, that she was kind of nodding, do you remember Claud? She's nodding away. It's more powerful as an intervention in that moment for her to speak it from herself than for me to tell her what I think it is. Claudia W.: And then what was even more extraordinary, because, at this point, I totally forgotten about the ex-husband. The man who had made her feel safe, that they were best friends, and then he went off and left and didn't really say why this and that. And then you brought it round to that. So you said you are a woman who has to be in control because otherwise it all unravels. And then this happens and it's put you right back there. You're trigger is ex-husband. And her realization, I hope people are listening because definitely for me listening muted next door or on zoom, so miles away, I was like, oh, how extraordinary. Tanya Byron: That the ex-husband is the trigger for all of this? Claudia W.: Yes. Tanya Byron: Uncertainty for you is terrifying because of what could happen. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: And then your brother's murdered and that's a hard one for you because you were not close or in contact with him. Lottie: Nothing ever good was said about him and, because of the way I am as a person, I find that quite uncomfortable to be around. But, I couldn't be, you know, stealing from somebody. I couldn't do that. It's just, I know it's wrong. Tanya Byron: And his lack of control led to his tragic death. Cause I'm presuming the stabbing must've been something to do with some kind of criminal activity or. Lottie: He was on heroin um, at the time, and I think somebody said he was actually living out of a car. We obviously got called and said he, he's been stabbed, but he's okay, he's okay. Like they checked him. But what they hadn't realized is there was literally like a pin prick had gone to his heart, but they hadn't picked up on it. So from being told, he'd been stabbed and obviously he's okay, he's in hospital, so you're thinking he's going to be all right. To then get on a phone call to say that he's like, gone. It's just like another shock really. Tanya Byron: Mmm. Lottie: But I, I always knew he'd go young. I always knew it, Tanya Byron: But it's making you so sad now just talking about him. Lottie: Like we went through what we went through together. We're very different people and we reacted differently to it. You do think like he would have understood. Tanya Byron: Yes, absolutely. Lottie: And he's not here. Even if he was here, we might not have a relationship. So it's, it's difficult to, that, you don't want to hang on to what could have been. Tanya Byron: But actually sometimes just knowing there's someone else out there who has kind of experienced something that you've experienced can be quite- Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Quite helpful, quite validating, even if you're not really in contact with them, you just know that they, they know. I would say you and your brother represent two sides of the same coin. If we say that coin is anxiety that comes from deep grief in childhood trauma, uncertainty, feeling lost, all the things that you've described. And we know that anxiety can lead to what's called the fight or flight or freeze response. It sounds like you went for flight, hold it all in control around the anxiety and your brother, he didn't do that, he did fight. He expressed his anxiety through his out of control behavior. So basically the two sides of the coin are either very much in control or very much out of control. You're both responding to the same feeling, you just are doing it very differently. Lottie: Yeah. That makes sense. It's sad as well. Tanya Byron: Tell me about that. Lottie: You know, he couldn't put it right and, got taken away from him didn't it. Tanya Byron: Yeah. Like you, he felt that life was kind of unpredictable and out of control at times. But unlike you, he expressed that through, being unpredictable and out of control. Whereas you went in the opposite direction, which was to be working, to build a life that's predictable and in control. But I would say both of you were feeling the same. Lottie: It actually makes me feel closer to him. Tanya Byron: Yes. Lottie: Because I always felt like I wasn't close to him. Like you say, feeling the same thing, just reacting differently to it. Tanya Byron: And it's very hard, isn't it, to be compassionate to people who show their extreme vulnerability in antisocial ways. It's why we've got a, a lot of very broken people in prison. People who actually need a lot of compassion and understanding, so we can help them understand how they got to that place, the crimes that they committed in order to try and heal something, perhaps. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: You know, and, and, you know, often I write a lot of columns and broadcasts and stuff, and when I sort of would say that I'll often get accused of being very liberal and, you're making excuses, but nothing happens for no reason right? Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Your brother was extremely vulnerable. He was just impossible to love. Impossible to help. Because he was so out of control and what he did was so antisocial. What do we do with that? We run away from it. We don't want to look at it. And I'm not suggesting that you did, you should have done more, I'm not suggesting that at all, but what I'm suggesting is, he and you are closer than you think, because you're both bonded by this vulnerability that has come from your shared experience in childhood. I don't think you've grieved for him. Really? Lottie: No, I haven't. I didn't think I needed to. I hate to say it, but it's the truth. It was a relief because I didn't have to worry anymore. It was like, I didn't have to worry about him. Does that make sense? Tanya Byron: Completely because for someone who needs things to feel in control, your brother was absolute, an absolute nightmare for you. I mean, he would be a nightmare anyway for anybody because obviously it's very challenging supporting someone who's a drug user and a criminal and all of those things. Um, but for you, he was out of control, and that is just too much. I mean, that's where you kind of spin out into that sense of not feeling grounded, not feeling. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: So he was just massively, massively, massively triggering for you. So when he wasn't around anymore, at least that stopped, but I- Lottie: I never thought of it like that before, but you're right. He was a trigger. I can see that now. I couldn't see that before. Tanya Byron: And is that helpful? Or where's that leaving you now do you think? Lottie: Yeah, it is helpful. I think it's making me understand myself a bit better I'm looking around now at my house. That definitely went up a level when my marriage broke down. Tanya Byron: And, those feelings are unbearable for you, hence, the cushions, the throw, everything just so. Routines, get up, do this, do that. That's how you control it. So anything that feels out of control spins you out? Lottie: Yeah, you're right. I think it's just that feeling of what can I do to get back on my feet? Tanya Byron: Ground yourself. Lottie: - helped me. I think it's, you know, bringing back memories as well, because I'm thinking of times when, like I say, you don't feel grounded and it's just like. It's called, it's like a panicky feeling like you can't catch your breath, like, you don't know what to do. And you're like looking around thinking, but like, how do I stop this? Who can help me and, and I think, that's why I try and say, like, I always try and sit down and put my feet on the floor and I try and say to myself, like, you're you're alright, you're alright, you're alright. And it's just keep saying over and over until like, I calm down. Tanya Byron: So you definitely try, you know, I need to ground myself now. You don't allow the panic to take you into a panic attack or anything. Lottie: I try not to. Tanya Byron: Yeah. Lottie: I just feel like, you just want someone to make everything all right. Tanya Byron: And you've hit the nail on the head. And so in that moment, it's really hard to know who to reach out to. And then the person you thought you'd found in your life who could do that for you and be there for you in those moments. He then left. Lottie: I feel very, like I don't want to depend on anybody anymore. Tanya Byron: Right, well, that is something that I would want to change because there is a lot of love in you to give and to receive, but I don't know if you've ever fully accessed that because your need to control means that you've become quite functional possibly in relationships. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: And maybe other aspects of relationships, the unpredictable more spontaneous side of relationships, maybe intimacy, I don't know, but those sides of the relationship might have been more difficult for you. Lottie: Yeah they have. Tanya Byron: Right. Because it's about, it's those moments where we do feel we've lost control. Intimacy for a lot of women can be very challenging if they are women who need to control things to feel safe. Because obviously when you're intimate, it does, you are properly vulnerable and it, and sort of out of control in a way. I don't know if that, does that make sense to you? I don't know if that's- Lottie: Yeah it does now that you're saying it. I think that was one of the main issues in my marriage. Tanya Byron: That he had an affair because you were struggling with the spontaneous, intimate side of the relationship. Lottie: Yeah, definitely. Tanya Byron: At some level, maybe you start sort of feel a bit responsible for it as well, which is awful. Lottie: I try not to take that on because I think, I didn't deserve what happened. Tanya Byron: I think what you said earlier to Claud was right. I think you said he didn't need to do it in that way. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: You know. Lottie: You want to leave then, I can't stop you. Tanya Byron: Or have a conversation, have a conversation, say we need to see someone together because I'm struggling with our, the intimate side of our relationship. Lottie: He wouldn't do that. Tanya Byron: Well, yeah. So that's then where I get it. Lottie: I did say that. Tanya Byron: Yeah, what you said, we need to see someone. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Yeah. Right. So, yeah. So I completely understand why you just feel completely furious around that. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: So how do we do that then? What do you think the, the next step is? Lottie: I don't, honestly, I don't know. Tanya Byron: So, what have you started a process of here with me and Claud today? Lottie: Trying to, talk about it. Tanya Byron: That terrifies you though to think about really talking about it, doesn't it? yeah. You're proper nodding. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: And why does it make you feel uneasy? The thought of sitting with somebody regularly to have chats like we've started today. Lottie: I guess, cause it brings it all up. Tanya Byron: And what are you afraid will happen? Lottie: Being vulnerable and hurting and, it's like most days you can put it in a box and, you don't have to deal with it. Tanya Byron: What is your fear? If you allow yourself to really process them and have support to sort of go through them. Lottie: It's just like dropping that guard and, then who's going to catch me. Tanya Byron: So that's why people like me exist. Because we hold you. Something you've never experienced in your life properly. You've always just had to get on with it. I think in the second part, maybe I think, you know, cause you've listened to the podcast site. I think it's really helpful when we take a break that people can have a moment to reflect and often writing something down is, is a useful way of doing that. Um, I've got some ideas and I don't, I'm not sure if you have any thoughts about what you could write as a letter to someone or would you feel able to do that? Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Who would you write it to? Lottie: Probably my younger self. Tanya Byron: Okay, Claudia W.: Tan, let's talk about Lottie. That blew my mind. And also I felt privileged that we, I think she started a grieving process for her brother, and I think she did it with you just then. Tanya Byron: That was so moving for me. That I think is going to be very painful for her because I think she's never been able to see how vulnerable her brother was, because it's the same vulnerability that she can't see in herself. Claudia W.: Yes. Tanya Byron: It's too frightening for her. So, you know, I didn't want to labor that point with her, but I, I felt it would be helpful for her to be able to think about him in a different way. Because there is, I mean, she's not grieved for her dad. She's not grieved for her mum. She's not grieved for her lost childhood. She's not grieved for her friend she lost when she moved schools. Claudia W.: Yeah. Tanya Byron: She's not grieved for her brother. I mean, I mean, she's absolutely full of grief that she needs permission to express. And she's so terrified that if she expresses it, she'll lose control, like her brother lost control and that's, terrifying for her. Claudia W.: Yeah. Tanya Byron: So she continues to glide, but I think the paddling now under the water is getting exhausting. I think as she's getting older, her kids getting older, etc, I think she's now. It's an effort, and I, and I can see that in her, she looks tired. She needs someone to do for her, what you do for your kids, and I do for mine, which in those moments where you can see they're confused and unhappy and anxious, you just put your arms around them, and you just say, mom's here. It's going to be all right. Now, do you want to talk about it? No one ever, ever did that for her. Heartbreaking. Claudia W.: Totally heartbreaking. I'd like to ask you something else, which has come up, but in a different way, and in fact, our first ever episode. She mentioned grounded to me. She mentioned it quite a few times with you. Because she controls her breathing, she sort of finds her feet on the floor, and when she goes off somewhere else, she has to bring herself back. What, what is that? Tanya Byron: Grounding techniques are talked about within the mindfulness literature? So mindfulness is a very important way of learning to manage anxiety, anxiety, both physically, but also mental anxiety, you know, racing, thoughts, and, and that sort of stuff. When we feel ourselves physically and mentally spinning out of control. Literally, as the word says, how do we ground ourselves? How do we bring ourselves back down to earth? I don't think she's actually done any formal mindfulness training, and I think it would be really good thing for her to try. So I will suggest that, but she talks about sitting down, feeling her feet on the ground, so just reminding herself where she is and then saying to herself, I'm going to be okay, I'm going to be okay, and breathing. And what these grounding techniques do in the first instance is they help us bring down the physiological impact of anxiety. Manage our breath, slow, our heart rate down, you know, all the tingling that you can feel when you're anxious, settle that all down. Feel the chair, feel where you're sitting, feel your feet on the floor. So you're just centering yourself back into the now, which is fundamentally shifting from the limbic emotional areas of the brain being very active anxiety. You're shifting focus back into your thoughtful, rational prefrontal cortex. And the first step is to ground yourself to shift the physiology down, so you come out of the fight or flight response. Claudia W.: How extraordinary. Okay, she's going to come back in. Tanya Byron: How did you find our chat? Lottie: Oh I found our chat really good yeah. Tanya Byron: Did you? Got a big smile on your face. You found it really good, even though we're talking about some of the most painful aspects of your life, that's interesting isn't it? Tell me why you found it really good. Lottie: I like, I feel I'm going to be able to move forward, get some help and try and find the, the peace that I said I wanted. Tanya Byron: So that feels achievable now? That feels clearer. Lottie: Yeah. Just knowing that I, you know, I might be able to come through this. Tanya Byron: Oh, you definitely will. You'll learn to live with it and not be afraid of the feelings. I think it's just, you're so afraid of how it makes you feel, you avoid the feelings by keeping busy. It's caught up with so much other stuff that you've never had the space or the time, or even the permission to look at and to be heard. So that's where we got to this idea of this child that we all carry inside us holding onto these historical experiences. And you were going to write a letter to that part of yourself. Why are you doing that face? Lottie: I really struggled. Tanya Byron: Well, why wouldn't you struggle? It's the very first time you've ever done this. You must have felt some things. Feelings that you have been trying to avoid, so. Lottie: I haven't got the answers still. So what am I telling her? Tanya Byron: You know, when you're with your kids and they're upset about something? Lottie: Mmm. Tanya Byron: Do you straight away tell them what to do or do you sit with them and just comfort them and, let them tell you whatever is bothering them or- Lottie: Yeah no, you let them express themselves don't you. Tanya Byron: So you help them feel heard. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: That's exactly the place you're at. You're struggling because you want the solution. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: And that's going to take time and that's going to be hard for you because you get things done yesterday. That's the kind of person, yeah. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Do you feel able to read it? Lottie: Yeah, I didn't finish it. But I can read you what I've wrote. Tanya Byron: Are you okay with that? Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Okay. Lottie: I put, I know your lost. You don't know where you're going and it's scary and it's okay to be scared. You have lost the most important people in your world, and it's okay to cry and tell people how you're feeling. Life does keep moving forward, but so will you, so talk to people, let them help you. And then I stopped, cause, I didn't have, I, just ran out of time and I'd, like I said, I was really struggling with what to actually say. Tanya Byron: That's so powerful, what you've said. And you got tearful when you read it to me. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Let's just sit with that feeling just briefly, you won't break. Lottie: I just feel like there's a pain in my heart. It's just hurts. Tanya Byron: And what hurt are you talking about here? Lottie: You know, you're like 10 years old and you're just, looking around and thinking, not, what, what, what have I got like, your whole world, you just gone everything, you know. Tanya Byron: But it's a feeling that you do feel sometimes. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: You're taking big breaths now. You're trying to control again, aren't you? Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Don't be scared. You're doing so well. You absolutely deserve this space. Lottie: I don't want to be sad. I don't want to, feel hurt and pain. And I want to be happy for my, my boys. Tanya Byron: When you're feeling anxious or overwhelmed or unhappy, which I think you, you are feeling at the moment unhappy, sometimes, do you reach out to a friend and say, oh, I'm having such a crap time, I'm feeling- Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: You do? Lottie: Yeah. When I'm desperate, I'll reach out and just say, like I'm not coping. I just need to, vent. But it's hard. None of them are single parents. None of them have lost a parent, so it's, it's hard trying to find someone that you like, yeah, I get it. Tanya Byron: So, yeah, that's where you feel lost and alone. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: What can I do to help you feel able and strong enough to take the next step on this journey? Lottie: I think I did just by talking to you, I feel stronger. I think it's like, I've always said you've not got that person to say, oh, I think this is good for you, I think. So, even having you say like, I, I, yeah, I think you need to do this. I think this is right for you. That in itself is just making me think like, yeah, you're right. It's got to come out. Tanya Byron: And do you believe me when I say you won't break? Lottie: No. Tanya Byron: Sure. And I, I'm, I'm not surprised to hear that. And so what I want to explain to you a bit is how people like me work, and we can help you find that person. We understand how to support the person that we're supporting. So we look at, the defenses and you've got some very strong defenses needing to feel in control, planning, strategy, imagining every worst case scenario, having a plan for that. So therefore we would make sure that we support a process where you can contact feelings, but you, it doesn't take you to a place where you start to feel terrified and out of control. So we would pace it. There have been times today when you have got very tearful and cried. And you've listened to this podcast before haven't you, and you know, sometimes I will say to people let's carry on with the feeling and people will really cry and carry on crying. When you listened back to this, you might notice that when you have had those feelings, we've acknowledged them, but I've not really pushed hard on them. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: And the reason for that is because I recognise that that's not where you quite are yet. And I didn't want to put you in a position where you ended your discussion with me feeling shredded. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: I wanted you to feel empowered. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: And I think the empowerment has come from the understanding and from also the fact that, you know, you've contacted these feelings. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: You're fine. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: And that's why you would, with our support, find someone who's, very well-trained. Fully qualified. A clinician as well as a psychological therapist. Because those are the skills that will enable you to feel properly looked after. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Because you will know however hard it feels, that person will not let you break. Lottie: Okay. Tanya Byron: You have done incredible work. How old are you now? Lottie: 41. Tanya Byron: This is, more than 35 years you have just explored with me today. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: I hope you're proud of yourself. Lottie: Yeah. Tanya Byron: Why? Lottie: Suppose being open to something I find difficult to talk about. Tanya Byron: Are you going to carry on with this journey and find someone to carry on this, this work with you? Lottie: Yeah, definitely. Tanya Byron: So today was a brave day. I'm so proud of you. Thank you, thanks for having me. Claudia W.: Are you alright darling? Lottie: Yeah I'm ok. Claudia W.: I want to say this to you, I love the fact you've got great friends. There is one of them, might not be the obvious one, there'll be one, they don't have to have gone through what you've gone through, who's going to be your person. You, I want you to choose one of them and it might be not the one that's the biggest laugh or the organized one, but there'll be one of those. Don't sit with this all by yourself. I don't want you to have to deal with anything by yourself anymore. There'll be somebody in your gang. You go, I've got to sit down, I've got to tell you something. Lottie: Yeah. Claudia W.: My childhood, terrible things happened. One after the other. And it's all come to a head and I'm feeling rubbish and I'm going to get a bit of help, and can I tell you about it? Don't do this alone. Lottie: Okay. Claudia W.: Because he was the one who made you feel safe and unfortunately that didn't work. Girlfriends make you feel safe. Lottie: Yeah. Claudia W.: They just do. Lottie: Yeah, I agree. And they dont leave. Claudia W.: They don't leave. They don't make things up. They don't tell you they're going to the garage, when actually they're seeing a girlfriend, because quite frankly, women don't have the time to be so deceitful, quite frankly. So, you're going to choose one and that is for now, you can flirt, you'll find somebody else, who'd be like, thank goodness, I'm not with that absolute Muppet anymore. That's a way down the line. But right now your life partner, cause your boys are too little, and even though they're magnificent you, that you are a gang. Your life partner for now is going to be one of those girls, cause you do have great friends. It will be a privilege for them, honestly, in the same way that it would be if they called you and went, I don't know how to tell you this, but I'm super brave, and I'm just been, I've been getting on with it, and professor Tanya Byron says that I'm a really excellent Swan, but I'd now just like to make a small nest with another swan. We're going to get a takeaway and I need to tell you about what's happened to me in my life. Do you promise? Lottie: Yeah. I will. Claudia W.: Okay. Thank you so much for talking to us. We're so grateful. Lottie: Thank you. Claudia W.: Number one, I mean, you do this for a living, right? You listen to these stories, but I just want to say on a personal note, because you got her completely right. I couldn't word it, but she is together. I kept on saying, thinking you're so capable, but she's been through so much. And I just want to say, I think people who are listening will agree that she's, she's extraordinary. Isn't she? Tanya Byron: Oh, absolutely. She's built a life, an amazing life for her and her children with the most difficult beginning for herself. Claudia W.: The most difficult beginning and no sense of poor me and no sense of wait, till I tell you about this and nothing. Quite obviously sad, but quite matter of fact. The reason why I talked to her for a while at the beginning, because, you know, we have to make people aware. People get to talk to you once, and of course we'll follow up. We know how they're doing. You can give them some brilliant resources and they're looked after, but this is one chat. And it just seemed, there was so much, but the idea that you then, you said, but this is why him leaving has made you, not just when it happens, it's horrible, but this is a different kind of level for you. Tanya Byron: But it's interesting is'nt, cause I think she brought that, cause I remember her saying, I'm pretty sure the way I feel now has a lot to do with my childhood. Claudia W.: Oh yes you're right. Tanya Byron: So she'd already, she already knew it. She just hadn't quite worked it out. So for me, it's about kind of seeing what people already know. You know, I'm not an expert, like I'm a mind reader. It's, it's much more forensic than that actually. You know, the clues are there. We are kind of like detectives in a way. Claudia W.: I've always thought you were like a detective. Tanya Byron: [Laughs] Claudia W.: That you just, you know, but you're picking things up, which I would, a normal, a muggle like me wouldn't notice. And then you go, but that's why, but this is why. And I think it will really help her. You're brilliant. Thank you very much. Tanya Byron: Why are you thanking me? Claudia W.: I just find the whole thing. Fascinating. I'm so lucky. We're all so lucky that we get to hear the innards of your head. Tanya Byron: The innards of my head? Claudia W.: And your expertise. Yes. Yes. I can't wait for Lottie to come back one day. That's what I hope. Tanya Byron: You want to be the swan next to her? Claudia W.: Yes, I do. Tanya Byron: Well, she can't have you cause you're my Swan. So sorry. Don't share. Enough said. See you next week. Claudia W.: Bye babe. Just so you know, we always follow up with our guests providing useful contacts and information, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode. Please do share this podcast. You can send links direct from the app if you like. You can also follow to get new episodes as soon as they come out. Also, we would love to know what you think, do rate comment and give us a five-star review. It all helps us to make more. And finally, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email describing your issue to how@somethinelse.com. That's how H O W, at somethinelse.com. Somethin' without the G. Next time we meet Heather. Heather: I just never wanted to feel like that. Tanya Byron: Really describe what you mean by that. Heather: Abandoned I think. Tanya Byron: Abandoned. Claudia W.: This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the assistant producer is Grace Laiker, the producer is Selina Ream, and the executive producers are Claire Solan and Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening. .