Claudia W.: Please note that this episode contains some strong language and adult issues, which may not be suitable for all listeners. Heather: I just never wanted to feel like that. Tanya B.: Really describe what you mean by that. Heather: Abandoned, I think. Tanya B.: Abandoned. Claudia W.: Hello, and welcome to how did we get here with me Claudia Winkleman and my brilliant friend clinical psychologist, Professor Tanya Byron. In this podcast, we look at a particular set of challenges someone might be having in their life. Tanya talks to our guest in a one-to-one session, and I listen in, asking questions in the breaks. This time we meet Heather who is married and has a nine-year-old daughter. When Heather was 17, she went on holiday and on her return found her mother had left the family home without warning. Heather can't understand how her mother, afraid of doing anything on her own, could set up a brand-new life. Heather: Yeah, I've always thought, and I think my sisters always thought it was just very selfish. Claudia W.: Let's go and meet Heather. Tell me why you're here? Heather: I think I've got to a point in my life, Claude, where I am at the top of a mountain, and I'm just starting to feel the sun on my face and the wind in my hair, but I have got a backpack full of rocks, and I just feel at the stage that I'm kind of ready to put them down. Claudia W.: Talk to me about the rocks. What's happened that's made you feel wobbly? Heather: Some of the things that happened in my childhood, um. Yeah, it was me and my oldest sister and my mom and my dad. I feel like that family fragmented, and then when we were about, I think about 16, we all went on a lovely family holiday to Florida, which was great. And then when we came back from there, that's when I had my, my road traffic accident. And then about three months after that, my sister left to move in with her boyfriend, and then about three months after that, my mum left, um. And so within that year, uh, I don't know- Claudia W.: It was tumultuous. If you don't mind, tell me about the accident Heather: I think I was just off daydreaming about something else, and, uh, I walked straight in front of a car. Um, I was in hospital for about three or four days, and then I came out and then went into shock and went back in for a couple of days and then came out and then I sort of was on the mend from there really. Claudia W.: Okay, so you were, thank goodness, cause it could have been so much worse. Heather: Yes. Yeah. I mean, I fractured my skull and my leg, and I had a sort of head injury, but, um, I got over that, so that's good. Claudia W.: Yes. Your mom and dad, were they happily married do you think? Heather: My parents never argued and I don't know if that's why they weren't happy, I'm not, I'm not sure what happened there, but a family friend who I grew up with and they babysat us and we went round to see their puppies and all that sort of stuff when we were kids, his wife left him, um, and he came to my parents really for some comfort, I think and, it was him that my mum then left with and they're still married now, they've now been married longer than my mum and dad were. Claudia W.: Wow. How heartbroken was your dad? Because that must've been hard to watch. Heather: Yes, it was awful, and I think because my sister wasn't there, my dad and I were kind of two strangers in this house, cause he'd always like been with my sister and I'd always been with my mum. Um, and we got to know each other, and we became friends and that's the dad who I know now, you know, uh, and up until that point, he was just, the guy sort of came home from work and bought us chocolate on a Friday. Claudia W.: But you must've felt abandoned both of you. Heather: I think. Yeah. Claudia W.: How, how did your mom tell you? Heather: She didn't actually, and I think that was probably one of the hardest things is I went away with some friends on a holiday. And when I come back, my mum had gone. Claudia W.: Has your mom ever said, I love you, I'm so sorry this happened, but this friend, you know, he made me happy. I love him. But, um, you know, do you discuss it with her? Heather: I have, I have done, yeah, um, but I think not, not to the degree that I probably would of now, now being this age. You're a lot braver when you're older. Claudia W.: Yeah, of course, of course. And you are a mom and you're happily married, and you've got a gorgeous daughter, Charlotte, how old's Charlotte? Heather: She's nine. Claudia W.: And you want some answers and that will make sense. Heather: Some of it, I just don't get. Some of it now I'm a mum, I think, what were you doing? Yeah, if it was Charlotte, I kind of think I over prepare her now for everything, cause I'm just like, she must know all the details, she must know everything. Claudia W.: Yeah. Heather: And I think that sometimes I interact with her, like she's 17 and she's actually, she's nine. Claudia W.: Well, I'm so pleased you're here. And just to up some, you are here to get the rocks out of your backpack and to maybe understand why you weren't given more information about your mum, leaving. People are allowed to leave, people are allowed to fall in love with other people- Heather: Sure, absolutely. Claudia W.: All of that, but the fact that you weren't told anything, I'm so pleased you're here, thank you. And you will speak to the brilliant professor, but thank you, Heather. Heather: Thank you. Tanya B.: How is it that you've not been able to have a conversation with your mum about it? Cause it does feel like you've got questions and you're bright and you'll, as I say, articulate, why have you not been able to have the chat? Heather: Part of me doesn't want to bring it up. I don't want to upset her and bring it all up for her. Part of me thinks should I have not just put this to bed by now? My mum can be very wounded, and I remember that as a kid as well. Tanya B.: You do have a sense that your mom has a level of fragility? Heather: Yes. She would do something that would make me feel very guilty about it. Tanya B.: What would, what, what, what, what might that be? Heather: Um, oh, do you know the image that I'm getting in my head is as a kid with like a big bottom lip? Tanya B.: A bit sulky, a bit kind of- Heather: Wounded. Tanya B.: -don't upset me. Don't upset me. Heather: I think my mum, when we were kids was very anxious and I think I was very sensitive child. Still am very sensitive. Tanya B.: What you know is very different to how it still makes you feel. Heather: Yes. Tanya B.: When you feel it, you become the child. Heather: Very much so. Tanya B.: The feeling perception is from the child view. The understanding perception is from the 46-year-old mother, wife, woman view. And I think perhaps your kind of confusion is that you don't understand why if I get it, can I move on? Would you agree with that? Heather: Yes, I would. If I'm at work in my professional head, I don't have that. I'm able to separate from that and I'm able to be really articulate and it's like the people that see me as my age now and know me as now, I'm much more assertive with than, than people, that knew me as a child like my sister, my mom, my dad are the three people I find it really hard to kind of have these conversations with. Tanya B.: Yes. When you were talking to Claude, you were actually a bit calmer, a bit more, just here's my story. Now you're talking to me. I can hear the breathing. I can see you look almost on the edge of tears. That, that it's almost like you have flipped haven't you from the woman that was talking to Claude, with me I'm seeing the, the child who just feels hurt, broken, overwhelmed, confused, and anxious. Heather: Yes. Tanya B.: Are you able to describe to me what that feels like? Heather: Can I give you an example that happened to me the other day in a coffee shop? I've got an app and I got a free coffee on this app, and that was great. And I went in and I said to the lady, oh, hi, I've got a free coffee on my app, she said, oh, brilliant, and she mucked up something on the till. She said, oh, I've pressed the wrong button, so that's 40p. And I said, oh, but it's a free coffee on the app? So, she said, yeah, but it's 40p cause, um, I pressed the wrong button on the till. And so, and it froze me and I just thought, and in my mind, my Heather was going, but it's your mistake, you know? But then this feeling come up and so I just paid the 40p and left. And they're the two people again, it's that, I suddenly just feel frozen. I weigh up the, what's the emotional fallout for this person if I, am I going to upset or wound that person. And then I come out, just going what, why did that happen? Tanya B.: In your work role where you know your status, you know, you know, you have your colleagues, you're very senior. It's not a problem for you, if it's, if it's things that you have to confront that adjust within that professional context. But as soon as it moves into a context where it's about person to person, even if it, it could be about 40p or it could be saying mum, why did you do that? Why didn't you at least help us understand before you just disappeared? When it's that sort of stuff, you then become mute you, because you don't know what to do, because you're so afraid that the way you convey what you feel is likely to cause a problem, perhaps even damage the person that you are going to express it to. Heather: Yes. Tanya B.: And is that why you sound like you over-prepare your daughter charlotte for life? Heather: So, I was quite an anxious child and, and, and so I had, I had insomnia as well. Um, so with Charlotte, I will now pop her to bed. She's always had a really good bedtime routine, so she doesn't have to go through that. Tanya B.: So, you try, you try and plan and manage things ahead for her so that she, it's, it, it's, it becomes something that's not going to be difficult or troublesome for her. Heather: Yes. Or that she won't feel like I did laying in bed, not being able to sleep- Tanya B.: Back in the day, yeah. Understood. It sounds like one of the ways you parent is to always try and be one step ahead and sort of trying to clear the path for her as much as you can as her mum, would you say that's a way of thinking? Heather: Yeah. Or, or if there's something on the path that I'm on the side of the path going, it's okay, you can you can get over that big hurdle because I'm here, Daddy's here. Tanya B.: Right. Heather: But I don't stop the hurdle. I don't avoid anything that I think is going to teach her to be resilient or cope or be independent of us. Tanya B.: So, you're saying I'm not a snowplow parent i.e, you know, this idea of a snowplow, that big machine that clears the snow ahead of the, of the car. But you're saying, but I'm there, but it does sound, there is a slight snowplow element to it because you also said to Claude, but I explain everything to her, so there will be no surprises. And that to me feels like, it links very much to those, those, that early year in the early nineties, when you were hit twice by things you didn't see coming. Once was a car, and the second thing was your mother leaving. So, there is a part of you that really worries about something unexpected affecting Charlotte, you'll, that really terrifies you. Heather: And or me. Tanya B.: Yeah. Heather: That will then take me away from her. Tanya B.: The truth is, and this is a difficult, painful truth is you will one day. We want to go before our kids don't we, so as much as we don't want to leave our kids, we don't want them to leave us before we leave them so, in the natural order of events, you won't be there for her forever. And as she gets older and starts to live a more independent life, she's going to be having experiences that you're not going to be part of, she might not want you to be part of. I just wonder how much that is going to be difficult for you? Heather: I think the other half of me does, so lets that happen. Tanya B.: That's the adult. But it's the child part of you, this anxious child that I can see now again, tearful and, and, and quite overwhelmed by these ideas. For you it was abrupt and sudden just like when you were hit by that car. The last thing you ever want for your daughter, Charlotte, is that she doesn't see something coming because you don't want her to be knocked flat on her face, like you have been in the early nineties. Claudia W.: Tan, can I just ask a question? You know, I love discussing, uh, snowplowing parents because I'm the worst and, you asked quite a bit about Charlotte and how she parents. Is that to see whether she's repeating behavior, cause she kept on saying, I would never get up and leave Charlotte, but I have to prepare her. Is that snowplowing? Tanya B.: Think of a snowplow clearing out the big snowdrifts ahead. Yeah, that's the idea that you know, we can over the parent by being over-protective by trying to remove all impediments in the path of our children's development and in doing so we might make the path smoother for now, but in the longterm, how the hell are they going to get through the boulders and the hurdles and all the other things in life that of course they're going to have to deal with because P.S that's life. Um, so yeah, I wanted to check it because obviously part of what, I think she said it to you, I can't remember, she was also talking about her daughter or she definitely said it to me, which is so I have, you know, as a mother, I have really made sure that I don't repeat this by being a snowplow parent, the child can be quite anxious because you're actually denying them opportunity to fall and pick themselves up and therefore build their resilience. But I felt that Heather, again, she's very psychologically minded when I was kind of exploring that, she said, oh no, no, no, I understand the concept of resilience, but I think it's worth saying that we can all overcorrect sometimes, and we've got to be careful that in doing so we don't inadvertently create what we're trying to avoid for our own children, because we don't want them to feel like we felt. Claudia W.: Okay. Back to the chat. Tanya B.: How did you know, as a child, your mum was anxious. Can you, had you have any memories or any sort of- Heather: Yes, yeah, she was claustrophobic. And I remember that being quite overwhelming for all of us, so she wouldn't get in a lift and my great nanny or my nanny, I can't remember which, used to live in a block of flats. And, uh, we all couldn't use the lift because my mom didn't want to get in the lift. But rather than my mum kind of walking up the stairs on her own and saying, I'll meet you up there, we all as a family kind of had to go up the stairs. And I just distinctly remember the going up the stairs and it being quite tiring cause they were quite high up, but also it wasn't a nice building and it like smelled of urine and- Tanya B.: Yes. Heather: And I remember that as a kid. And I now look back now, and I think if that was Charlotte, that I would say to my hubby and Charlotte, right, I'll meet you up there, if I can't get in the lift or I would just make myself get in the lift so that she wasn't worried about lifts. Tanya B.: Right. Heather: The stuff that my mom needed to keep herself safe, for whatever reason, wasn't just for my mom, the whole family had to do it. Tanya B.: Did your mum feel safe without your father around? If your father was out at work or, you know how was - you're shaking your head. Heather: So, if my dad was at, was at work, we had quite a sort of strict routine, but my dad sometimes had to work nights, um, or was on call, uh, at night. I've got really lovely childhood memories of me and my sister being in his office in Fenchurch Street, in our pyjamas, climbing under the desks and having a lot of fun. But the reason we were there was because he would get called at work at one o'clock in the morning, and my mum wouldn't stay home with us. Tanya B.: So, she'd wake you up. Heather: So, the whole family would go to Fenchurch Street. Tanya B.: How often would that happen? Heather: I can't, I don't remember, but I've got like a few memories of doing that. Tanya B.: And that's your mother's anxiety, she just could, she was too afraid to be in the house with you two girls without your father there. Heather: Yes. And it's, and it, and it carries on now. My mom's really worried about being on her own. It's not for me to fix, but it's affected me. Tanya B.: Absolutely. But also, you have similarities, not to the same extent, but for example, for you, the projection is onto Charlotte. Your anxiety can get pretty kind of significant if you imagine her being on her own without you. So there is something that you share with your mom, this sort of fear of abandonment, this feeling of, of being alone and not having that person there to help you feel safe. Heather: And then, and then dealing with the irony that, that we all did that for years and years with my mum. And then she was suddenly able to sort of get on a plane and elope to Barbados and get married. It's like, hold on, you could'nt get in a lift. Tanya B.: And had she, was she able to go on planes and things before that? Heather: Yeah, but not without a lot of, um, you know, lots of tears and- Tanya B.: Behind the irony, that feels like there's some anger. Heather: I think, and my sister shares this, is just furious. You know, my, my, my sister had a car accident as well, this is again, outside of our house and, she asked my sister to come in because she didn't have her make up on. Tanya B.: Your sister sort of, had a bit of a bump with another car outside the house. She called for your mum to come out and help her, and your mum said- Heather: My mum heard the noise and opened the door- Tanya B.: But your mum, she said, I'm not coming out cause I haven't got my makeup on. Heather: Yeah. Tanya B.: So, you're saying the irony that actually makes both you and your sister you used the word furious. So that's not just angry, but that's like really angry. Heather: [angry noise] Tanya B.: Oh, we can hear it can't we. Can, you, you can feel it in your chest. Heather: Well I can feel what's coming up is that I'm being disloyal to my mum by telling you this. Tanya B.: It's almost as if, if we love somebody, it can only ever be positive if we acknowledge things about them that we struggle with, that may be flaws that they have, that's a bad thing. We mustn't do that. That feels like a really difficult way for you to live your life in relationships if, you can't allow yourself sometimes to feel upset or angry with things that people are doing or have done. Heather: I know that that's what this, this feeling is, is that I'm afraid to sort of, you know, approach my mum, and say that I don't like this about that. It would upset her. Tanya B.: When things don't work in a way that keeps things nice and smooth, it freaks you out, like off the scale freaks you out. Heather: Yeah, and my dad was the smooth maker. Tanya B.: Tell me a little bit about that. Heather: I think my dad tried to absorb a lot of my mom's anxiety for us. Um, but equally he left her behavior unchecked. Tanya B.: Tell me what you mean by that? Heather: I see that my husband. I'm really able to say to him, I don't think we should do it like that. Tanya B.: It's an equal relationship. There's reciprocity. You can both support each other, but you can both challenge each other and that's okay. Heather: Yes. Tanya B.: But your father didn't. Tell me a bit about that, and if you have any examples. Heather: Well, I think the example would be all us going up into London. It's like, why did my dad not go well, just stay with the girls? That's crazy. Imagine what impact it's going to have on them if we all get up at one in the morning, they're going to be tired for school, they're going to be, I don't know if he had that conversation, I don't know. But also, if he did what happened then that he then gave in and went, oh, okay, come on, let's all just go, and I, I see him probably going, oh, do you know what? This is the easier route. And also, my mum would be, very strict as, uh, as a, I don't know, not maybe not the word I'm thinking, but would be- Tanya B.: Controlling, controlling? Heather: Yes. Yeah. Tanya B.: Yeah. Heather: And then all of a sudden, she'd be like, who did you speak to at the office today and be quite jealous, I think of, you know, that my dad's relationships with any women in the office and stuff, and then she goes off again. It comes back to that. Tanya B.: Earlier, when you were talking about going in as a child at one in the morning, I, there was a part of me thinking, was it because she was scared or was it because she was worried that he was having a sort of assignation and he, she went in to make sure he didn't, that he was going into work and there wasn't something else going on. I did wonder, I mean, it was a fleeting thought, but I did wonder a bit about that, actually. Okay. Well, so your mum, very anxious lady, therefore, very controlling. People who are anxious are often very controlling. And I think there's a tiny bit of that in you, but I have a feeling you're not that extreme as, as your mother clearly was. Heather: Well, I recognize it. I think so. I challenge myself not to be like it. Tanya B.: You get it, it's it, I don't have to help you see it. We've just got to work out how you move beyond it. In order to do that, I need to think a bit with you about your dad. Even as a child, you were aware that your father, now I'm putting words into your mouth, so you must tell me whether you agree or you disagree, but your father was complicit. He was really complicit in your mother's anxiety. And what I mean by that, I'm not blaming him and I'm not judging him or your mother, but what I'm saying is he enabled her anxiety to have such a hold over her. He did not challenge. He did not, try and find a way to help her look at this part of herself that was clearly really disabling for her. Couldn't get into a lift, could get on a plane, but literally, you know, was completely traumatized. I mean, sounds like for your mother, life was really hard for her and your father kind of just sat next to her and paddled the canoe in the direction that was really difficult. Heather: Yes. Tanya B.: Have you ever thought of it like that? Have you ever thought that he was an enabler? Heather: Uh, no. Not until I've, now. Tanya B.: It seems to me that your mum left because she wasn't happy. Heather: Yes. Tanya B.: And I suspect your father, perhaps wasn't that happy either because he was sort of having to go along with things that were quite challenging for him, but he did not feel able to challenge your mum because of her anxiety and the reaction he might get from her. Heather: Yeah. And I think him, and I haven't had that conversation about, were you happy dad or not? Tanya B.: Why not? Heather: Again, it's just that idea of lets, it's gone put it to bed. He's moved on. Tanya B.: Is your father happy in the relationship he's in now? Heather: I think so, yeah. Tanya B.: You could argue that actually your mum leaving was, better for both of them in terms of their own happiness moving forward. Heather: I think so. Tanya B.: Right. So maybe she did the right thing. Maybe she did it in the wrong way, but maybe it was a response to the fact that the relationship between your mother and father, which was riven with anxiety, it just got to the point where she met someone else, she felt something different. In her head, maybe you and your sister were now of the age where your sister had left home, you'd gone on a jolly with your mates, she's like, right, the girls are fine, they're getting on with their lives, I'm now going to go off and live mine in a different way. Heather: Yes, I think that's what happened. But I don't think she did it in a way that was useful to us. For me and my sister. Tanya B.: How would it have been more useful? Heather: To talk to us. Tanya B.: Is she able to have those kinds of conversations when she's feeling very emotional and overwhelmed and anxious? Heather: Um, she does, but they become very introspective about her experience of it. Tanya B.: Okay. But I wonder whether she's a little bit like you in that coffee shop, who wanted to say to that barista, I'm sorry, I'm not paying 40p for a free coffee, but just couldn't. Just felt too anxious, so paid the 40p and left. Said nothing. I wonder whether in the moment you and your mum are quite similar. You're so overwhelmed by what you're feeling, and so afraid of the impact on other people, you say nothing. Heather: Yeah. Probably. I've never thought of it like that. Tanya B.: Tell me a little bit about what you're thinking now, because I've offered you a different perspective. Heather: I think, I think me, out of the both of us would have been the hardest one to say I'm off. Tanya B.: You were the youngest, you were the most attached to her. You just had a car accident. So maybe she felt she couldn't because she was so afraid of how it would affect you. Heather: Yeah. Maybe she couldn't. Tanya B.: So maybe what you've been upset about, which I understand you've been upset about something for all these years, that actually would never have been possible because if you put yourself in situations where you're required to talk about something emotionally a bit challenging, you really struggle with that. So, we can kind of understand that maybe that's what was going on for your mum. You look a bit stunned by this insight. What, what's stunned you about it? Heather: Cause I think that must have been really, really hard for her to have done that, and I think I've always thought, and I think my sisters always thought it was just very selfish, and unexpected and, you know, she's always said, you know what? I wouldn't want to live a lie with your dad, and I totally understand that. And I think that's right, I think she did the right thing for her, and I think in time she's actually did the right thing for my dad. I just didn't see it from that point of view. And it must've been so hard, like if I had to say to Charlotte, I'm going, I couldn't tell her, that would make me feel overwhelmed. Part of me thinks I wouldn't go or maybe she hang on in there for when we were 10, do you know what I mean? I don't know. Tanya B.: She hung on until you were old enough. Heather: Maybe Tanya B.: It's like, you've just done a bit of a 180 haven't you? You're now looking at it differently, and you're sobbing. Talk to me about the emotion. I just want to let you- Heather: I just wish I'd done this 20 years ago. Tanya B.: But we're doing it now, and you are amazing. What I notice in this last bit, since you've shifted, the perspective is that you're very tearful and you're crying, but you're not anxious. Heather: Yeah, my, my heart rates come right down actually. It was in my chest a minute ago, like really. Tanya B.: Yeah. Heather: I feel less angry with her. Tanya B.: More sad. But less angry and less anxious. So, it's almost like that child part, that you've sort of quietened that part of you down a bit, and you're now thinking and feeling about it like a, like an adult. I don't even think you're now feeling disloyal. And I wonder whether this is the first time you've ever felt sorry for your mum in all of this. Really sorry for her. Heather: It, it's.. Tanya B.: Oh, I'm sorry, you're getting very upset again. Why, tell me why that's made you this upset. Heather: I think as mummies, we don't get a lot of rope, do we? Tanya B.: And we're always blamed, right? Heather: Yeah. Tanya B.: We're always blamed. Blame your mother. Heather: Yeah. You know, I didn't, I didn't see that side of it. I just saw how it affected or how it affects me, my sister, my dad, and just felt furious with her. Tanya B.: Hmm. Heather: Yeah, I suddenly sort of see her looking back at our house and us in it and having to go, and that must've been really difficult. Tanya B.: The only way to be truly free was to try and walk away. That's tragic really isn't it? Heather: Yeah. Tanya B.: Understanding doesn't necessarily mean we condone and say, well, that's all right then you guys suck it up, get on with it, your poor mum. Because sometimes people are like, well, hold on a second, what about the impact of her behavior? And there was, there were clear impacts. I mean, there's no denying it. It's not diminishing how it left you feeling, how it left your sister feeling and your father. Absolutely. But good people do bad things sometimes don't they? And it's trying to think, well, how helpful is it if I just continue to feel angry about what they did and therefore frozen and stuck and unable to move myself and my relationship with them forward. Heather: Yeah, I do get stuck like that anger button will come on at the slightest thing with my mom, and I'm, I'm hoping after this, that will change. Tanya B.: Maybe it's about beginning to forgive. Heather: I thought I had forgiven her, and I think I almost went through the forgiveness for dummies book. Tanya B.: Yeah, I know what you mean yeah. Heather: Checked everything off. I don't think in my heart I have. Tanya B.: That's correct. So, the child part of you has to forgive her. I just wonder whether the piece of work for us for the second part of our chat would be just me helping you really look at this new perspective and think about how you could incorporate that into a broader conversation with her, which felt loving and compassionate rather than angry and judgmental. And perhaps we could start that by you having a bit of a break now and, you know, writing one of my famous letters, I asked people to write, cause I always think it's a good way to rehearse the narrative, you know, just write to her. Um, but I feel that perhaps you want to have a bit of a practice run at it with me so that I can hold your hand just while you think about how you could have what possibly could be one of the most difficult, but maybe one of the most valuable conversations you'll ever have in your life. Heather: I agree. Tanya B.: All right, Claudia W.: Tan, I've got quite a lot to say about Heather. Just as an outsider, watching her go from with me, chatted told the story, with you quite anxious, then anger, and then at the end, there was an extraordinary moment when she was just sad and you and I could see the tears were just falling out of her eyes, like literally just springing out. Tanya B.: Yes. Claudia W.: Um, but calm, what happened there? Tanya B.: An intervention, a psychological or therapeutic intervention will only work if we kind of know what the formulation is, what the story is. And so, when people come like Heather who, are clearly very, I mean, she's very insightful, she gets it. It's just, I know the moment when it lands, because I, you see physically the breath in the voice, everything, the shoulders, everything changes. And it's almost like people can relax just into feeling sad. Claudia W.: Yeah. Tanya B.: And she needed to feel sad about what happened. But without the chains of anger that were then causing her such high levels of anxiety, that it was making her stuck. She just couldn't move beyond this repetitive cycle of why did you do this to us? Why did you do this to us? In terms of her mother. Claudia W.: It was when you did the link, but maybe you are quite similar? Heather is an amazing woman, was excited about a free coffee, but was absolutely paralyzed to say, no, sorry, I can't give you 40p cause it was free and couldn't have that conversation, and it's when you made that link and the tears didn't stop falling, and I cannot wait for her to read out this letter. I feel like she had an absolute moment. A, the light, you kept on, you know, it's, it started shining through even more. Tanya B.: Things aren't said for nothing, right. Claudia W.: Yeah. Tanya B.: You know, she brought that, she offered that as an example, and that then at, for me, was a gift. I could place that moment in the coffee shop into these much bigger moments in her life. Why couldn't I just not have pursued my free coffee? That tells us something about me, I don't like to upset people, but she can't see that in the other areas of her life so clearly because, it's much more difficult to see and untangle, because there's so much more there. So, these little examples that people will give, "oh, there was this thing I just remembered the other day", inside I'm cheering, cause I know I've been given a narrative gift that will help me then shift on in the development of this formulation, the story. Claudia W.: I'll tell you what I found very moving, which is at the end, you said sometimes good people do bad things. Your mom got up and left. She didn't tell you, but that's the truth of life. When you said that to her, she went [gasps] Tanya B.: Actually, it was exactly that moment I think when Heather said and, maybe that was the way she felt she could do it that would be the least distressing for us because she didn't want me clinging onto her legs saying, mum, please don't go. Which is actually really moving, just saying it, I'm feeling quite moved, just thinking about it, because again, she was sort of considering what felt like a really brutal thing to do, but considering why it might have been done in the way that it was done. Claudia W.: Okay. Thank you very much. I cannot wait, can we get Heather back in? Do you mind? I'll disappear. Tanya B.: All right, of you go, bye. The way we've sort of narrated the story today, it's just the position that you now stand in, the way you're thinking about it, gives you an opportunity to free yourself up from the legacy of your mother's anxiety, which I think has left you with a lot of anxiety. Heather: Yes. I agree. Rather than it consuming me, I can move away from it and see it. It hasn't fixed it, but I can see it. Tanya B.: We're beginning to take the rucksack off your back. Heather: Yeah. I've put it down over there. Tanya B.: And we're now looking at it. Heather: Yeah. Tanya B.: So, in order then to address those rocks, you might, have a conversation with your mom. You might not, but you've definitely started to write down for us what that might look like. Are you comfortable to, to, to read that out? Heather: Yeah. I'll give it a go. Dear mum. I'm writing to say, firstly, that I love you, your my mum. When you left 30 years ago now I was devastated. Still broken from my accident, you leaving felt like I was then reversed over by a train. I realise now that you needed to go. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes looking back at our house and our family and having to walk away. This must've been one of the most difficult and challenging things that you've ever faced in your life. This decision though has left me with feelings of anger, resentment, guilt, and overwhelming sadness. I realise that this comes out as irritation or by avoiding contact with you if it is overwhelming for me. I want to let this go and move forward. I want us to find a peaceful and happy place where we can have a relationship without me feeling angry or guilty. The first step towards this is for me to forgive you. Truly forgive you. If I can do this, I think the rest will unfold naturally. Tanya B.: I'm wondering whether part of the fear of engaging in this with your mum is a fear that if you were to feel closer to her. Feel as close to her as you did when you were a child. I wonder if that feels terrifying- Heather: Yeah. Tanya B.: -In terms of losing her again. Heather: Yeah, I suppose I'm just afraid of feeling that feeling of her going again, whether that's her passing away or. Tanya B.: Which she will, at some point. Heather: You know, whereas I feel part of me actually feels safe having the distance. Tanya B.: But actually, I think it makes you feel very unsafe because you're so anxious. Heather: Yeah, it's both. Tanya B.: Yeah. I suspect if you deny yourself the opportunity to feel close to your mum again, when she dies, I think you will forever feel very stuck and very abandoned by her. However, I think if, you are able to allow yourself to feel closer to your mother. My sense is when she does die, it will be a very different loss that will enable you to still have a very positive sense of her and a relationship with her. So, pulling all that together, I think if anyone's going to take the lead on this, it would be you. Because you have the resources that I think she doesn't. But I suspect this is an unspoken conversation. She must know. That like you, she just doesn't know how to do talk about it Heather: Because I think she feels guilty about what happened. Tanya B.: Yeah, I bet she does. And maybe in some way you could provide her with an opportunity to, to acknowledge that and then feel that she can move on from that. What happens next do you think? Heather: I think I'd want to see how I feel when I see her. And I think exploring things a little bit differently from, from her point of view has helped me let go of some of this stuff already. Tanya B.: In what way? Heather: I feel less angry. Tanya B.: Today, the anxiety has gone because you're seeing it differently. Always question, how can I look at this differently so I can just kick that anxiety into touch. My only note to you about Charlotte is, Heather, I think you can stop trying so hard and worrying so much. Heather: Yeah. Tanya B.: She'll be fine because she's got you as her mum. You, don't overthink it. Breathe and just enjoy what I've got, a bit more without the legacy of the past. Heather: That's what I wanted from today. Tanya B.: Have we done it? Heather: I definitely think we've made some steps in the right direction, yeah. Tanya B.: Take that backpack off. It's still there, the rocks will always be there but- Heather: Put it down for a bit. Tanya B.: Put it down. And enjoy the sun. Thank you. Heather: Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. Claudia W.: It felt like an enormous chat for you. Heather: Yes. Claudia W.: And I'm so pleased you have that space and as Tan, says, we've all got rocks, but you just put the rucksack down. Heather: Yeah. Claudia W.: Or maybe you can whittle them. I don't know if one whittles rocks. Heather: [laughs] I don't know. Claudia W.: I'm not, not, I'm not a geologist. Heather: Maybe there's a whole new profession here. Claudia W.: This is a whole new, yeah, leave it with us, you and I can start up a business and we can be, Tan can be our leader, but maybe you'll make the rocks out of something less heavy. Heather: Yes that would be good Claudia W.: Um, Heather, thank you honestly, such a privilege to talk to you and hear you and Tan speak, so thank you so so much. Heather: Thank you. Claudia W.: I loved it when you said to her "we can't just remove them" it wasn't just, 'woof' rucksack is gone. Tanya B.: Things can't unhappen if they've happened. So, for me, moving on is about understanding and learning to live with something rather than the pain of whatever it is still living within us. If I had X experiences in my childhood or growing up, I had them, but it doesn't mean that they have to continue to haunt me even into my adulthood, but I can't expect them to disappear because I had them. So, it is about acceptance and tolerance, even in the most painful circumstances as a way of freeing yourself from the legacy of our past. Claudia W.: Yes. I love that Tan. Tanya B.: That felt so profound. I- Claudia W.: It really did. I know I'm I'm in- Tanya B.: You said wow when I finished saying that. Claudia W.: I did. I absolutely did. Thank you. I found the letter incredibly moving. It was just incredibly honest. It wasn't, everything's fine, I get it, no problem. It was more intelligent than that. It was more nuanced, and it was just, as I said, it was more honest. Tanya B.: But it is possible to say I feel angry in a way that doesn't feel brutal and destructive. It's funny, isn't it? How we, we really struggle to express feelings that are negative, that somehow, we think expressing negative feelings is automatically going to lead to a negative outcome. It isn't. So, we have to be able to express negative feelings, to be able to resolve situations and move on sometimes. But rather than saying "Claude, I'm so angry with you because you did this and you did that" if I say "Claude, I'm feeling really angry and upset by this situation that we find ourselves in. I think I can get where you were coming from", whatever, whatever, whatever, "but I'm still struggling with it. Can we talk about it?" I feel like it would be, it, it would be a different, it would be fine. Claudia W.: Totally. She's been furious, I'm using her word, for 30 years. So sometimes you, it feels like you can't quite grab it, but she can. And I hope her, and her sister feel much better and they get some sort of resolution. Tanya B.: And then it does become what my grandma said, stumbling blocks can be stepping stones because that letter where she was sort of, I suppose, describing some of those stumbling blocks, it could be a path of stepping stones into a different kind of relationship with her mum, so that when her mum does eventually leave her, you know, dies, which, you know, happens to us all, she can grieve for her in a different way to how she did when she was 17 and felt abandoned. And that I think is important. Claudia W.: All right. Well, you're magnificent. I'm going to write a letter to you. Tanya B.: What are you going to say? Claudia W.: I love you. See you next week. Bye. Tanya B.: Bye-bye Claudia W.: Just so you know, we always follow up with our guests providing useful contacts and information. Some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode. Please do share this podcast, you can send links direct from the app, if you like. You can also follow to get new episodes as soon as they come out. Also, we would love to know what you think. Do rate, comment, and give us a five-star review. It all helps us to make more. And finally, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here, please email describing your issue to how@somethinelse.com that's how, H O W @somethinelse.com. Somethin' without the G. Next time we meet George. George: They hit a school and it was just Chinook after Chinook of kids. And that was like, day one, day two, something like that. Tanya B.: Nothing can ever prepare you for that can it? George: No, Nothing Claudia W.: This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Grace Laiker. The producer is Selina Ream, and the executive producers are Claire Solan and Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening.