Claudia 0:10 Please note there is some adult themes and strong language within this podcast that may not be suitable for everyone. Hello and welcome to 'How Did We Get Here?', the podcast where me, Claudia Winkleman, and the brilliant Professor Tanya Byron address family issues faced by real people when Tanya has a special one to one session with them. In each episode we get the privilege of listening in. I make notes from another room, and occasionally ask Tan about her process. This time we meet Joanna who was married in 1994, and in 2003, discovered that her husband wanted to transition. She came to talk about the difficulties that her, her two children face, and how she and Helen overcame it to stay married throughout the transition. Joanna calls Helen her soulmate and is incredibly proud of what they've been through. As the conversation went on, Joanna asked for advice on how to potentially fulfil all aspects of their marriage, parts of which seem to conflict with her own traditional upbringing. Joanna 1:11 Would it be possible for Helen and I, to move from having a tender relationship where we have a hug and a kiss, to having something more intimate? Claudia 1:22 What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one time, unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on helpful contacts, some of which you will be able to find in the programme notes of this episode. So let's go and meet Joanna. Hello, how are you? Joanna 1:43 I'm very well. Thank you. Claudia 1:45 So lovely to meet you. Joanna 1:46 Nice to meet you too. Claudia 1:47 I'm Claudia. Joanna 1:48 Yeah, I'm Joanna. Claudia 1:49 Thank you so much for coming in. Tell me why you're here. Joanna 1:53 So I'm here to talk through some of the difficulties that I had when my husband transitioned. Well it became clear that my husband he did transition into becoming a woman. So we were married in 94, and in less than 10 years, it became clear that they could no longer stay male. And it was... and I see this and say this now it sounds very simple... Claudia 2:14 I bet it wasn't. Joanna 2:15 At the time it was not very simple at all. So... and it was a real challenge. Claudia 2:19 How did you both get through it? Because must have been so difficult for her too. Joanna 2:24 Initially I had real struggles. I struggled, struggled and struggled, and thought I have to make a big decision, should we stay together, shouldn't we stay together? And what really changed, was when I realised I don't need to make a life decision. I actually only need to know can I cope with this today? And so once I had realised that, that released a lot, and I made it a lot easier for me. So some people would see that as putting off a decision, but actually, it worked for me. Claudia 2:49 Yes, I think it's a positive choice. Joanna 2:50 It is yeah. Claudia 2:52 You have children? Don't you? Joanna 2:53 Yes. Yes, so at the time, they were about three and seven sort of age and we were having an extension Claudia 3:00 You were dealing with a lot. Joanna 3:01 I was. Claudia 3:01 Two young kids, builders in, dust everywhere. Joanna 3:05 Yes. Claudia 3:05 And they turn around and go, I don't feel right. Joanna 3:08 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was scary because I thought it was going to be the end. And I come from quite a religious background. I'm not religious now, but at the time, for me, it was a lifelong commitment, and obviously I had the kids to think about. And that for a long time, we didn't know whether we would stay together. Claudia 3:24 Can I ask if Helen knows that you're here today? Joanna 3:26 She does know that I'm here. Claudia 3:27 And she's okay with that? Joanna 3:28 She is, yeah. Claudia 3:29 This is a contentious issue, which I imagine you and Helen have had to deal with, and must have made it even more difficult. Joanna 3:38 Most people have no idea what it, what it means. I had people say, Oh, you shouldn't stay, you shouldn't, you need to get out because of the children. Claudia 3:45 That must have made you so angry. Joanna 3:46 You worry, am I making the right decision? Have I got it right? And actually, I know now that actually the most important thing was that we were seen by the children to be together and that they didn't feel ashamed of Helen and I think had we been rowing, that's what's disruptive in a relationship for children. Claudia 3:58 And how are you in Helen now? Joanna 4:05 I feel that we are soulmates, I feel that we are a couple, you know, we might not be particularly conventional in the way that other people are couples. I'm in an effectively, a gay relationship, but I'm not gay. So that adds things into the mix. I think, you know, we work well together, we're a good team. I'm proud of my kids, and how well adjusted they are, who are now in their 20s. And I'm proud of what we've achieved between us. Claudia 4:30 Basically, what you're saying to me is you're here to process or to discuss the change your family went through. Joanna 4:36 Yeah, I think so. And to maybe put out there that there is hope for people. Claudia 4:40 Did it change overnight? Joanna 4:41 No. Claudia 4:42 No, it was slow. Joanna 4:43 It was slow, very slow. And so to begin with, I could hardly look at Helen when she dressed as Helen, but you know, gradually you get used to it and then it becomes familiar, and then you realise she's changing and she's becoming more herself, so then actually she's easier to live with. You know, so she's not up trying to be something she's not. Claudia 5:01 Well, thank you so much for coming here and talking about this subject and Professor Tanya Byron is going to come in. And then I'll talk to you at the end. Is that all right? Joanna 5:08 Yeah. Hello Tayna, nice to see you. Tanya 5:19 It's so good to meet you, and you have such an important story to tell, don't you? Joanna 5:23 I think so. Tanya 5:24 I suppose the point of what we're trying to do, and the question that we're asking because it's the name of the podcast is, 'How Did We Get Here?' Joanna 5:30 Okay. Tanya 5:31 And I guess in a sense, that would be where I would want to ask you quite a few questions. Joanna 5:36 Okay. Tanya 5:36 But I just want to know that you're comfortable with that. Joanna 5:39 I'm always very comfortable with people asking questions what they want to ask. I'm not upset if people get confused with pronouns or anything like that. I know that people don't always get it right, and people find it difficult. Tanya 5:50 So, you've given me permission? Joanna 5:51 Yes, I'm giving you permission. Tanya 5:53 Good. I was just listening to you talk to Claude, and, you know, obviously the key word is transition. And that would have been a huge journey for Helen. But I suppose when I was listening to you and Claude talk, I was thinking, you also had to transition. Joanna 6:08 I did, yeah. Tanya 6:09 In a different way, but also in parallel to a degree because something about your identity as a woman, as a wife, that will have had to shift and I was just curious about that for you. Joanna 6:21 It's clear now looking back, that a lot of my identity as a female and being feminine, came from being loved by a man. So that threatened that, and I found that very hard to accept, and I can remember feeling that sense of loneliness and insecurity and also but that sort of judgement. Why? Why should I only feel happy in myself because of somebody else in my life, you know, I should learn to be happy and I recognised it as a fault if you like. Tanya 6:52 So you're saying as a woman, I don't need to be validated in a relationship with a male. Joanna 6:56 I felt that being married to a man was validating my femininity. And that was being wipped away from underneath my feet. Tanya 7:03 Yes. Joanna 7:04 Even though Helen is this the same person as she was, and I was trying to get my head around this, it's the same person, it's the same person, but it felt so different. And it was a grieving process. Tanya 7:13 I was going to ask you that because without it feeling judgmental or critical of Helen and her decision, you lost a lot and you had to compromise significantly. Joanna 7:26 Yes. Tanya 7:26 ...in order for Helen to gain. So her gain, to some degree, was your loss I suspect. Joanna 7:32 I'm reading back through, I've found my diary from 2003, so reading back through that I can see how, you know, there's talk about us being cross with the children and not coping with them and drinking a lot. There were times when we hardly communicated, because it was that hard. Tanya 7:46 How painful did it get for you? Joanna 7:49 As close as you can get to break down without, I don't suppose I did have a breakdown, but I was close. And I held things together, I stopped all the responsibilities that I had other than maintaining the family and keeping the family together. I did crazy things like putting saucepans away in the fridge and people would ring me up and say, "When are we getting together Joanna, for coffee?" And I wouldn't suddenly think oh, I forgot, I would think I have no memory of that discussion. Tanya 8:13 Right. Joanna 8:13 And that was I suppose, the level of stress. Claudia 8:27 Alright, this might sound like a weird question, putting pans in the fridge, what is that indicative of? Because when Joanna mentioned it, I felt, not like I can see you because I'm cordoned off in a different room, I sort of felt you nod, like, oh, yeah, I get that. Tanya 8:41 So she was describing a time of acute stress, which makes a huge amount of sense. Her world was being turned upside down, she had significant decisions to make about her life, her relationship, her children, their future and her faith. I mean, you know, there was obviously a huge amount, and when everything hits you, like a tsunami, it's like being in a major accident. People just suddenly find that everything shuts down, memory shuts down, sort of awareness of anything, just stops, because it's almost like the brain is going, oh, hold on a second. Claudia 9:21 She mentioned memory loss, but I just wanted to mention it because you both, I don't mean that in a bad way, but you carried on, you sort of went oh, is it almost like you're in a state of emergency? Tanya 9:31 In a state of emergency, almost in a state of shock, when there is so much to process. Everything has to stop for a while as things are put in a sort of orderly queue and we start to work out right, what do we address first? And given the immense task ahead of her, it was almost like she had to sort of shut down, almost in herself, regroup, and then she could try, very slowly, one day at a time, to begin to process what she faced and make decisions in the way that she did. So it's very common that in those early days of such a huge amount of new information and decisions that have to be made, that are massively life impacting, people will literally say, I couldn't function, I couldn't remember anything. Claudia 10:24 It's almost like your brain doesn't have the space. Tanya 10:26 That's right. All she knew she had to do was get up, feed her kids, get them to school and just keep that bit of life ticking over, which she did. Anything else, including where she puts the pans, forget it, that if she managed to get it in the right cupboard, well done, if it was in the fridge, well, at least she kept them in the kitchen kind of thing. Claudia 10:43 Okay, thanks, Tan. Let's go back to the session. Tanya 10:51 At the point at which you realised a decision had to be made, that must have been just so challenging for you, there was a part of you that, as you... searching around for someone or something else to tell you what the right answer was, you yourself must have kind of almost shut down going, I don't know what to do. I can't do this. Joanna 11:11 I did shut down. There was also, no one knew when we first, when it first came out. It was just me and Helen. Tanya 11:20 You couldn't even talk to a friend? Joanna 11:21 Initially not. Tanya 11:22 That must've been so hard. Joanna 11:24 Helen didn't want it to get out, which you can understand, because she was dressing in those days, in secret and no one knew. That I think was the hardest time. And then we told some very specific people. And then I probably spoke to them loads, because I had three people or something now. Tanya 11:42 That must have been really difficult. Why did you describe yourself as a failure? I heard you say that to Claude? That's a harsh term. Joanna 11:50 Yeah. I thought I cannot even find a husband who wants to be a man. You're that useless Joanna. Tanya 11:57 And of course at the time you couldn't speak to anyone, so you were dealing with all this on your own, it's you and your diary. How have you processed that? Because I find you extraordinary just based on sitting here, I can see the tears shining in your eyes, I can see the memories. How did you do it? Do you think? Because that's certainly not failure. Joanna 12:17 Realising that God doesn't exist, and that the things that I did achieve and things like when my son was born, he was very poorly, and at the time I thought, I got through that because God helped me, and actually realising God wasn't there, it made me realise, actually, I didn't get through that because God helped me, I got through that because I was strong enough to get through it. And so I suppose that helped change what I feel about myself. I'm not just who I am, because there was somebody there saying, you know, supporting me and making sure it was okay. Actually, it was inside me. And it was there all the time. Tanya 12:48 Yes. It's interesting, isn't it? So you're saying, you were always looking for external validation. So something about this process has helped you validate yourself internally and recognise you for you, not necessarily you with other kinds of external factors having to sit around you. Joanna 13:07 I think yes and I think that's what had to happen. I had to become happy with who I am and proud of who I am. Tanya 13:15 One of the things you mentioned previously was this idea of loss. Joanna 13:19 Yes. Tanya 13:20 Where are the losses? Because there must have been some losses. I mean, you will have had to adjust yourself in life. Joanna 13:27 I had an ideal, plan A, you know, which was my nice, you know, marriage. And I think, but I had to know that I was giving that up. And the other thing, while I chose to stay with Helen, I knew I was also choosing not to have a male relationship that I craved. If you see what I mean,? Tanya 13:56 You mean from an intimacy point of view? Joanna 13:57 Yes. Sexually, yeah. I knew, every time I stayed, at every moment I decided to stay with Helen, I was deciding not to have a sexually fulfilling life, if you like, from that point of view. And that was definitely a loss, and it was a choice. There was a time when I thought maybe I should go or something, but I could never do that. It's all about relationship for me, that kind of thing. Tanya 13:58 Sexually? So it's all tied up? Joanna 14:26 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Tanya 14:27 How do you cope with that? I mean, you know, you're not an old woman by any stretch of the imagination, you're in your early 50s. How do you sustain that? Joanna 14:38 Probably by not trying to think about it too much. Tanya 14:40 Okay. Yeah. Joanna 14:42 And just saying what we have is good and concentrating on the good stuff. Tanya 14:48 So you're comfortable with that? Joanna 14:50 It was never my first choice, but I am, I am in a place of comfort with that. I mean, there are still times when I think, what if? I could never like have an affair or sexual event just for sex, it would ruin everything, all the good things that we have. And that is worth so much more to me. Tanya 15:10 But again, you've thought it through, and you recognise it's a choice you've had to make and a loss you've had to weather really. Joanna 15:17 Yeah, it is. Tanya 15:17 In terms of the transphobia that is also out there. Joanna 15:22 Yeah. Tanya 15:23 How much of that have you had to deal with? Because there are people with incredibly strong opinions that are expressed in ways that can be incredibly painful to hear. Joanna 15:35 There's a lot of anger out there. People just need to accept she is who she is. She can't, she didn't choose it. Tanya 15:43 As we're talking, I'm just thinking, do partners get the same level of support as the people that are transitioning? Joanna 15:52 No there's no support for partners. I had to find support. I had friends that I could speak to and then the other sort of person that I would meet is somebody that said, "yes, it's gonna be fine, I don't know what you're worrying about. It's going to be fine, don't worry about it." And I, I don't want it to be fine... Tanya 16:07 I've just put the sauces in the fridge for goodness sake. Joanna 16:09 Yeah, it's not fine and I would quite like her to stop transitioning, thank you. Because at this point, we don't know where she's going to end up on this journey. Is she just going to sometimes be female? Is she always going to be female? And I wanted it to stop. Tanya 16:22 She's so lucky to have you. Joanna 16:24 She is lucky to have me. Tanya 16:26 You're laughing? But you do agree with me. Right? You need to run the partner group. Joanna 16:29 I do agree with you, I think no, we've done well. And I've done well. And I'm proud as I say, I am now a proud adult who knows that I have achieved something. If I do nothing else in this life, I know that I've done a good thing. If I was with somebody now who had just discovered that their partner needed to change gender, I wouldn't be saying, oh it will be fine. I would be saying, it is really hard and I hear your pain, I see your pain, and it's a path you're going to have to work out. Not everybody can manage to stay together. And that is fine. That's not the problem. You know, that's, you know... Maybe I do. Tanya 17:01 Because you're the person you wanted to meet back then. Joanna 17:03 Yeah. I guess. Tanya 17:06 We're going to take a break in a minute and for the second part of our chat, is there anything that you think, this is something I need to understand better? I just want to be able to offer you something of what I know. Joanna 17:18 Okay. Tanya 17:20 What's the face for? Joanna 17:23 The face is it like, am I gonna really want to do this? Tanya 17:26 Why? I don't want to put you in a difficult position. Absolutely don't want to put you in a difficult position. Joanna 17:32 No. Tanya 17:33 As in, am I going to really want to do this? Because there is something I could ask, but I'm not sure whether I want to Joanna 17:37 Yes. Tanya 17:38 Okay. Well, you have generously come here, you've shared your story so far. So we're going to take a break, maybe you can reflect on it? And it gives you a chance to think about what we talked about, obviously, I want to think about it and I'm going to get someone to make your cup of tea and we'll meet again in 15 or 20 minutes or so. Joanna 17:54 Okay. Thank you. Claudia 18:13 We've been doing this podcast for a while now and I think it's safe to say lots of people come in, they might have a question, and it might not be the question that they necessarily need answered. As a clinician, is it quite lovely to be with somebody, I think we both have enormous respect for Joanna, who's almost come at the end of the story? What a brilliant job she's done. Tanya 18:36 I was presented with something that I don't often get presented with in my job, which is somebody who has come to tell me about the crisis that they were in, and how they navigated their way through it and how the ending has worked really well for them and those that they love. My job is often at the crisis moment. Claudia 19:00 And when I first met her, just as she was arriving, she was sitting down, and I said, why are you here? And she did mention, hope. She said, because it was dark, but I want to give people hope. And she said, when people would have come up to her saying, sure, you're gonna be fine, in the end, you're going to be fine. She was like 'what'. So I think it will be lovely for people to hear, whatever they're going through, just that change can be okay. What struck me about Joanna, as she repeated her story, I felt her confidence grow. Tanya 19:27 Yes. And it was also interesting in terms of the idea of validation, wasn't it? Claudia 19:32 Yes. Tanya 19:32 Did you pick up on that? Claudia 19:33 External and internal? Tanya 19:35 Yeah, so she was sort of saying, I felt you know, I was asking about loss and interestingly, it took us into a conversation about gain because she was sort of talking about the fact that previously she had relied on as a woman, her femininity being validated by being married to a man. And then she talked about, her you know about religion and her relationship with God and how that for her was an enormous validation. And I think, you know, losing both of those things has been challenging, and in some ways is probably still quite challenging. But it's also given her a lot. Now this is something we see a lot in mental health services, so for example, in eating disorders and people who struggle with disordered eating, you often get this kind of refrain, this constant refrain, which is, but if I lose X number of kilos... Claudia 20:28 Then I'll feel good Tanya 20:30 And I'll be a better person. And of course, that is never going to be the case. So the weight loss will never stop. Claudia 20:37 Of course, and also that's just setting yourself up for failure. If I don't get this job, if I don't get to this university, if I don't wear that wedding dress. Tanya 20:44 Yeah. And the number of young people who are having plastic surgery and things like that, and look everybody has a right to make a choice, I'm not criticising that, but I do wonder, where does that place you in terms of your own personal development? Because if you're thinking that having a more pouty mouth, is going to make you more successful and more desirable and more respected, I think that is possibly going to leave a lot of people very disappointed. Claudia 21:11 Yeah, just get some white lipstick. Tanya 21:13 That's what you do Claudia 21:14 Course Tanya 21:15 Does it work? Claudia 21:15 Typics, every time. Tanya 21:17 Lots of respect for you. Claudia 21:19 Thank you. I'll get Joanna. Tanya 21:33 So what was it you felt would be helpful for us to talk about? Joanna 21:37 So I suppose what I would like to explore is, would it be possible for Helen and I, to move from having a tender relationship where we have a hug and a kiss, to having something more intimate, that I could feel comfortable with? And why don't I feel comfortable with it? Is it because I have religious hang-ups? Even though I no longer believe in God. And is that something that could possibly change? I suppose. Tanya 22:04 I suppose my first question is do you want it to change? Joanna 22:06 I would like to think that I mean, we're in our mid 50s, we could live another 30 years, maybe another 40/50 years. I don't know, you know. If it's possible for it to change, it would be nice to think that we didn't waste the rest of those years not having any intimacy, sexual intimacy. Tanya 22:25 And is Helen in the same place? Joanna 22:27 So Helen is a lesbian, so she's attracted to women. She used to be attracted to me, so I presume she still could be or would be. We've not talked about it at all, so I don't know if she's in the same place. But I suppose I don't really want to broach the subject if it's then something which we start and then think, actually, this is just impossible. Tanya 22:46 It makes you anxious, doesn't it? Which is the thought of the conversation makes you anxious? Joanna 22:50 Yeah, it does. Tanya 22:51 And I understand that, but I'm also curious about it because when I think about the many conversations you had during the process of transitioning, Joanna 23:00 Yeah Tanya 23:00 I'm curious why this conversation feels more scary than that conversation. Because that would have been a hefty set of conversations. Joanna 23:09 Don't talk about sex. Tanya 23:11 And that's your, is that your background? How were you sort of raised? I mean, was it just...? Joanna 23:17 Yeah, I don't think we ever talked about sex. Tanya 23:20 And how did you raise your kids when it came to sex? Joanna 23:23 I think I've been more open with them. Yeah, I've talked about sexual relationships and talked about.. Tanya 23:30 So you can talk about sex? Joanna 23:31 Yes Tanya 23:32 Not about sex as it relates to you, because you were never given that. Joanna 23:35 Yeah Tanya 23:37 You were never give them permission to do that. But your children will be able to talk about sex because you've encouraged them to talk about... Joanna 23:42 I hope they would, yeah. Yeah Tanya 23:43 Okay. So what can what can we establish? We can establish that you have the capacity to deal with life challenging situations and find your way through it. Through conversation, through sheer will, through determination, through everything that you've managed to do. So we know you can do that. We know you can talk about sex, because you can talk to your kids about sex, help answer their questions, whatever they need. You're there as their mother and you've got a good relationship with your children because they can come to you and ask you questions. Joanna 24:12 Yeah. Tanya 24:12 Okay. So we've got two really important kind of skills, there. Joanna 24:17 Okay. Yeah. Tanya 24:18 So it's something else, isn't it? It's almost like it's an elephant in the room. Is it a fear that you might be told that you're not desirable anymore? What is the what is the outcome that you may fear? Joanna 24:43 So it might be partly that. I suspect that it's more that I would fear that I might be homosexual. Do you know what I mean? I could be that, I don't know, I don't, do you know what I mean? Tanya 24:57 Yeah. Joanna 24:57 Having spent my whole entire life saying I'm not, I don't know, that seems a crazy thing to say. I know, it's a crazy thing to say. But... Tanya 25:05 I think it's our generation as well where, you know, we still assign labels. It's interesting to look at our kids generation, the young people now are sort of moving on from that, and almost saying, we don't really need to name and label. Joanna 25:17 Yeah, I grew up with a very binary view, you're either homosexual or you're heterosexual. And now, I feel it could be that we could, we could have something intimate, because it doesn't have to be like that. Although, I'm stuck in that, it's like this. Tanya 25:32 Hundred percent, of course, because you're stuck because of how you were socialised. So then we think about, well, what needs to help you become unstuck? So that you can have a much more fluid conversation. Because certainly what I heard you say to me earlier is, I love Helen, because Helen is the person that I married. Joanna 25:54 Yes Tanya 25:55 Right. Okay. When I married Helen, Helen wasn't called Helen, Helen identified as a male, and we married as man and wife and yada, yada, yada. But actually, I think part of your journey, part of the story you were telling me earlier, is, I'm still here, because we are soul mates. We always were soul mates. And that hasn't changed. Joanna 26:18 That is correct. Yeah. Tanya 26:19 Yeah. Given the fact that the marriage continues, because you are still the same people who fell in love with each other, then how does that affect the intimacy? Because you're still the same people that fell in love with each other. Joanna 26:37 Two things happened. Obviously, our relationship broke down for a while, and we were living together, but we weren't really together. We were living together. Tanya 26:45 But that's, I could, you have to break down to rebuild don't you, I mean that's part of change. Joanna 26:50 So there was a time when we didn't even, well, I got a letter from her, she said you don't even touch me, you can't even.. you're repulsed by me, which was true. She was right. I was. Tanya 27:00 And you were in shock. Joanna 27:01 Yeah, I guess there was a time when we didn't have any. And then there was a time when we kind of realised we were staying together. And so we did get a bit more intimate. But I just couldn't go through with anything more than just kissing and hugging, really. I just ended up crying. And I don't know why I cried, I just cried. And so we stopped, and I can't really, I don't know why, but that's how it was. Tanya 27:27 But this was a few years ago right? Joanna 27:28 Yeah, must be more than 10 years ago. Tanya 27:30 Right, so I mean, it's very different times, then. I mean, there was so much that you were processing, and there at that time, I think whereas now when we have the conversation we had earlier, you can identify the gains in terms of your self actualization as a woman, your self-confidence, your self-belief, you were not there, you were somewhere else, where you were then, it was about loss and so sex would obviously be different, for obvious reasons due to surgery and transitioning and all of those things. So you were crying, because you were aware of what was different. And at that time the difference felt painful. That I would say, has probably shifted. The problem you've got is you're just stuck. Joanna 27:47 Yeah. Tanya 27:48 Right. If we just take this away from you and Helen, and if we just talk about sexual intimacy problems in any couple, yeah. In a relationship, you know, sex is great, sex is not so great, sex is non-existent, sex comes back with avengeance, I mean, that's normal. Joanna 28:34 Yeah. Tanya 28:34 Right, we're both women at a certain time of our life, and there are also other changes going on. I mean, you know, everything impacts on libido desire, etc. So, you're not unusual in that sense, as any woman of our age would be. Joanna 28:47 Yeah. Tanya 28:49 I want you to know that I do work with a number of couples in their 50s, in their 60s, who and actually younger as well, but who come saying, we love each other. Sex used to be really great, it's now so uncomfortable, we don't know what to do. Part of my job as a clinician would be to sort of, unpack that and say, well, has anything happened? etc. And obviously you've got a big story there. But then it's about also recognising that when you get out of the rhythm of something, it's really difficult just to jump back in and go, okay, come on, let's do it tonight, candles, a bit of, you know, bit of nice underwear, you know, couple of oysters, hey, ho, let's go. Doesn't work like that. So there is a really interesting programme. It's called the sensate focus programme, and it's designed for couples who have hit a kind of sexual desert. And it basically starts with the premise of if you are trying to get in to where you were before, and it's infused with anxiety and a bit of panic and a bit of, we've got to do this and... It's going to fail before you've started, because anxiety and intimacy do not work well together. Sure. So sensate focus says, start from the beginning. Joanna 30:16 Okay Tanya 30:17 Date, flirt, hold hands. But as a therapist, you'd set very clear parameters around that. So you'd literally imagine it like a ladder, where the top rung is intimacy at a level that both partners are really happy with, and we recognise we're at the bottom of the ladder. Ain't nothing happening here. And we define each rung of that ladder. But we are really clear that you don't go to the next rung, until a certain period of time has elapsed, okay? Because what you want to do, it's a bit like recreating what it used to feel like when you were snogging on the sofa downstairs when your parents were upstairs sleeping. You were desperate for more but you couldn't have it. Yeah. So rather than the anxiety of we have to just do it, you start off from from the, from the beginning, where you keep it at a certain level for so long that you're then gagging to move on. Okay? So, desire replaces anxiety. Okay, just to be very clear, it would start with flirting, talking, holding hands, it then you could do more caressing, but over clothes. As far as genitals go, I mean, they are right, somewhere at the top of that ladder. Okay? What we see in the sex therapy world is right, you know, I feel lubricated you've got an erection or we've both got an erection or we're both lubricated. Come on, let's do it now. I mean, literally go and have a cup of tea, that's going to be more pleasurable, it's just not going to work. So I think you're getting bound up with an idea of we've got to have intimacy, am I so hung up? Dadadada.. rather than accepting that the transition that you and Helen have managed so well in so many areas of your life, you've forgotten, that intimacy has to transition too, and that means you gotta start again. Joanna 32:20 Yeah. Tanya 32:21 What does that sound like to you? Joanna 32:23 Yeah, that sounds very plausible. I guess I thought something similar. I guess I don't know how to broach it. Right? Tanya 32:30 Well, let's talk about that, because I suppose what I would say to you is, you might want to start by asking Helen, how did she broach her big conversation with you? Because, she has had to face having very difficult discussions with you about things that could have led you to reject her. Joanna 32:53 Yes. Tanya 32:54 Before we talk about whatever the elephant in the room is, we just need to think about, how do we talk about these difficult things? She can help you both with that, because she had to do it. Joanna 33:07 Yeah. Tanya 33:07 Together, you can support you to get to the point where you say, Can we talk about this? We've got a practical approach. The next bit of this is a different question you're asking, which is, you're saying even though you're not homophobic, you clearly are not a homophobic person, you're saying do I have some internalised homophobia? About me? Joanna 33:31 Yes. Okay. Tanya 33:33 What worries you? Joanna 33:34 I genuinely think I am scared of enjoying it. With a female. Tanya 33:39 That's so honest. Joanna 33:41 I don't know why. Is it just that that's heterosexual people feel? Or was it because I could change and I could move away from that. Am I stuck in that place forever? Is that because of who I am? You know, I dream about, I still dream about having sex with men. You know, when I'm asleep, you know, is that where I have to stay or is it possible to move across and say, I can enjoy this and I can be allowed to enjoy it. Tanya 34:03 Yeah, but you obviously you won't know till you try, and there are also lots of other ways to have sexual pleasure. There are sex toys, there are various things that can also, you can both use that can for you replace some of what you've lost in terms of penetration, stuff like that. Yeah. Which is again, another conversation which you might say, Oh, that feels really icky, but it's an empowered conversation between two adults making a very private choice. That's no one else's business and it's up to you two. But putting that to one side, for a minute, this idea of enjoying yourself, what's wrong with enjoying it? Joanna 34:39 Is it like I've lied? Because I've said all my life that I'm heterosexual. Tanya 34:44 As we said, the word transition runs through so many strands of this, not just Helen's journey. Joanna 34:49 Choosing something different. Tanya 34:50 And who did you lie to? I mean, what did you do? Sort of walk out one day with a sandwich board going hello world, I'm heterosexual. You know, who have you lied to? Yourself? Joanna 34:59 Possibly, and possibly all the people that I've had conversations with because they ask questions, and it's, No it's none of their business, yeah. No you're right. Tanya 35:07 None of their business. Literally, no one's business, what you and Helen decide to do as a couple, from an intimacy point of view, it's no one, it only becomes anyone's business if people are being exploited, coerced, abused, etc. I mean, you know, it is so not anyone's business, I can't even find a word to describe how much it's irrelevant. Yeah. And if people ask you that, I know you're an open book, and I know you want to be really honest, and share your story and give people hope, and I respect you for that, but you also have my permission to say to people, I understand your curiosity, but you'll understand why I don't wish to answer you. Joanna 35:47 Yeah. Yeah. Tanya 35:48 Which is a polite way of saying mind your own bloody business. Joanna 35:51 Yeah. Tanya 35:51 The interesting thing is the private bit of this, the bit that no one has to know about apart from you and Helen, because frankly, it is no one else's business, is the bit that you really struggle with. Joanna 36:02 Yeah. Tanya 36:03 And that's because the person that you are the most worried about judgement from is Joanna 36:09 Myself. Tanya 36:10 Hundred percent. You don't have to announce this to the world. You just have to be okay with it for yourself. And if you enjoy it, without putting too fine a point on it, genital stimulation is genital stimulation, an orgasm is an orgasm. You know, if you're with someone you care about, you found a way to make it work, enjoy it. Joanna 36:37 That's fair. That's good. Tanya 36:40 I see your confidence. I see little sparks. Joanna 36:43 Yeah, no, I think that Yeah, yeah. Tanya 36:45 What are you thinking? Joanna 36:47 I'm just trying to assimilate it and see whether I feel at home with that concept. Tanya 36:53 I don't, I don't think we can answer that question yet. Joanna 36:55 Yeah, okay. Tanya 36:56 I don't, but I think you're putting pressure on yourself to be at home with something, in the way you didn't put pressure on yourself to be at home with the transitioning process. You said to me, I took it one day at a time. And you got to where you are now. And it's good for everyone. Sex and intimacy doesn't automatically follow. Joanna 37:18 No Tanya 37:18 That's a whole separate strand. So, you kind of got to give yourself permission to go through that process as well. Joanna 37:27 In my head, I'm conscious that I know that this is something which I would just be doing for me alone. You know what I mean, maybe me and maybe Helen, but all the other things that I did, I did because it was helping other people too. Tanya 37:41 And the children Joanna 37:42 And the children too. Yeah, that's right. And I suppose it's recognising that's okay. To make it just about me. Tanya 37:47 100%. Now, it's your turn. And I encourage you to, to take the time to have the conversation, to just put the cherry on the cake. Joanna 38:02 Yeah. Okay. Claudia 38:12 When you first came in here, it's interesting because lots of people come in here going, not quite sure what I wanted to get out of it, but you knew, Joanna 38:21 I know how I felt. And I know how desperate it was. And I never thought I would get where I am. I didn't even want to contemplate getting where I am now, at that point. But it is more than all right, you know, it's better than I could have hoped. You know, certainly better than I would have dreamed and I just hope that yeah, I really want somebody out there who's desperately struggling. You know, it's not wrong, that you're struggling. And all those feelings are real, but it can get better. Claudia 39:03 So how interesting you chatted, and just at the last minute, Joanna asked about intimacy. I think all of us who've been in long-term relationships, do go, hold on can we have conversation about intimacy? It was very interesting what you said. Tanya 39:22 I don't think we're very good at talking about intimacy. I think even if we can talk to our kids about it, and hopefully give them a strong sense of sort of understanding and direction and support and and being able to be assertive and say no, when they need to, and all that sort of stuff, which I think you know, as parents is part of our role and preparing them to be independent adults. I don't know, is it a generational thing? I don't know but I think we're less good at it. And I can't tell you Claude, the number of couples I meet where the marital issues often stem around the fact that intimacy has just kind of died. I see intimacy, and I'm not, I'm not talking about sex, per se, I'm talking about intimacy is the oxygen of a relationship in the sense that, you know, we can be mates, we can be friends, you know, we can be co parents, we can do all of that stuff. But intimacy is just about us. It's just about the something that glues us together and makes us a couple and I think that can be neglected in a relationship. And then neglect can then lead to a resentment, an embarrassment, an inability to know how to talk about it, and that's when you know, problems start to set in. Claudia 40:38 It's the cement, isn't it? That's what I call it. Tanya 40:40 Yeah, absolutely. But again, it's not about sex. Claudia 40:43 No, no, it's just about being together, being close, being intimate. Tanya 40:48 Yeah. Claudia 40:49 Tell me about the method. Tanya 40:50 So the sensate focus method is basically helping people to take the anxiety out of the process of sexual reconnection or intimacy reconnection. It doesn't have to end with, you know, a sexual activity, but it has to enable people to sort of grow the intimacy back to a place where they both feel comfortable. And often what we find with couples who are struggling with intimacy is that, in the sort of anxiety and interestingly, embarrassment, people who've been naked in front of each other for X number of years and had children and all of that stuff suddenly feel really coy and shy. It's about sort of saying, forget all that, go on dates, have a laugh, hold hands, you know, have a bit of a kiss when you think no one's looking, have a hug, stuff that just was how it all began. And sometimes when you lose your way, the best thing to do is go back to the beginning again, and just sort of re-experience. Those early, fun, flirty, furtive moments. Claudia 41:56 Can I throw in this word? Necking. Tanya 42:00 That makes you old. Claudia 42:01 I am old, I'm 47. Tanya 42:04 Yeah necking, that's interesting. God I remember that word Claudia 42:06 Do you remember when you just kiss and they sort of lick your neck and then your parents go, isn't it time to your homework? Tanya 42:12 That never happened to me Claude. Lick your neck? Does he still lick, oh no, I don't want that image in my head. I do not want that image in my head. Claudia 42:19 He does, Tan. He does, and you know him well, already. Just a quick note that if you haven't already, please click on the subscribe button and you'll receive free episodes, the minute they're ready. And please do rate, comment, and share. If you're interested in taking part in future episodes of 'How Did We Get Here?', please email: parenting@somethinelse.com, that's parenting at something without a G, else.com. Next time we meet Max and Anna. Tanya 42:51 There's something about her that makes you both quite anxious. Anna 42:56 Terrified of her, no I'm joking we're not but... Tanya 43:00 But you are a bit I think. It's almost like you eggshell it around her sometimes. Max 43:03 Yeah, I think thats fair. Claudia 43:07 This podcast was possible with the help of the following people at something else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the Assistant producer is Hannah Tolbert, the producer is Selina Ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you very much to Joanna and to Helen, who gave her permission to sharing this story. Transcribed by https://otter.ai