Max 0:07 It feels manipulative. And I think she started to see the reaction when we're just like, oh God, not another thing. Claudia 0:16 This is another episode of 'How Did We Get Here?', the podcast where me, Claudia Winkleman, talks to Professor Tanya Byron. We look at some of the difficulties that people and their nearest and dearest come up against. This is what happens, Tan talks to a guest face to face, I'm listening in a separate room. Occasionally, I will stop tape and ask Tanya, why she went down certain routes, just to learn how the process of her as a clinical psychologist works too. This time, we meet Max and Anna, they're married, they've got two children, Bella and Tilly, aged five and 19 months. They asked for help because their oldest daughter will only and I mean only, do activities with mum. But as you'll hear Tanya uncovers something about their dynamic as a couple, that is very telling. Tanya 1:06 And you take the kind of, come on now, we've got to really address this and you're like, yeah, but you know, is that fair? Anna 1:15 Absolutely. Yeah. Tanya 1:16 And who wins? Anna 1:17 Me Tanya 1:19 Okay, I mean you are winning on all levels. He is pushed out. Anna 1:23 Yeah. Tanya 1:25 He is pushed out. Claudia 1:27 What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one-time, unscripted session with a real person. In this episode, names have been changed to protect their identities. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on useful links and contacts, which you will also find in the programme notes of this episode. So let's go and meet Max and Anna. Hi, how are you? Anna 1:55 Hi I'm Anna, lovely to meet you. Claudia 1:56 Hi I'm Claude, thanks so much for coming in. You look very buoyant and happy. Max 2:03 Always Claudia 2:04 Well, that's excellent. Because sometimes I just had to say it because sometimes people are more nervous. I guess it helps because you've got each other. We've never had somebody come in as a pair. Max 2:13 Oh, are they usually on their own? Claudia 2:15 Yeah. Max, let me ask you then. Max 2:17 Yes? Claudia 2:18 Why are you here? Unknown Speaker 2:18 So our five year old, Bella, she, she's really clingy towards her mum. You know, for instance, if I want to take her out somewhere, there's no real desire for me to do that. She just kind of wants to stick with mummy all the time. Because I then think there's other things that feed into that. So it's kind of looking at ways that we can... Anna 2:38 Knock that on the head. Max 2:39 Yeah. Claudia 2:40 What about when she was two and a half? And what you know... Anna 2:42 She's always been like this. Max 2:44 Yeah. It's not since Tilly's came along that it's always been Mummy, Mummy, Mummy, Mummy, mummy. Claudia 2:51 So how did that make you feel? Max 2:54 Just makes you feel a bit crappy. I'm reasonably sensitive as it is. I'll be like, right, so should we, let's go and do this, we'll gonna do that and she'll go, uh, no thank you. Claudia 3:04 And you're like, thanks very much. It is a strange thing, but I'm going to share this with the group. And don't take this the wrong way. You look super fun. You know, like, I'd like to go to the zoo with you. If it's not too weird or the park, I would like you to push me on a swing. It's going off in a strange angle. What I mean is, you know, I imagine there were some dads who are going, he didn't want to be with me and you look at the dad and you go, well, yeah, you sort of looked like you'd sit in the corner and ignore them and do a crossword. Where as you look, playful. Max 3:18 I know, I am. I'm an idiot. I'm down with that. I'm fine. I like to have fun, like so I would like to think of myself as like, giving her fun options. She just doesn't want to do any of them. Claudia 3:51 And what happens if you don't let her say no? Anna 3:55 She just screams. Max 3:57 I mean we had it didn't we? Anna 3:58 Yeah, this week, so she had to go swimming, she wanted me to take her and we said no daddy's taking you and we literally had to put her in a car kicking and screaming. Max 4:06 It was the most blood-curdling... and it was kind of the first time we'd actually for a while just gone, no, do you know what? No, Anna 4:13 Daddy's taking you swimming. Max 4:14 ...you're coming swimming. It was like neighbours looking out the window... Claudia 4:18 Let me ask you this then, how was swimming? Unknown Speaker 4:20 Actually she was fine. She carried on screaming for a bit. My approach is, I just tried to kind of ignore it and just try and change the subject. Now when I then ask saying look, I'm relying on you to tell me where to go because I don't know where I'm going and then she was like, she just switched and she was totally fine and... Anna 4:38 ...switches into super helpful mode. Doesn't she? Claudia 4:40 So she does love being with daddy. Anna 4:41 She just, she would rather be with mummy. Max 4:43 But if she's given an option, she'll always you know, and there may be the problem. Claudia 4:47 And Anna, it is that annoying for you? Anna 4:52 Yes, because if I want to go anywhere, to the hairdressers, to the gym, there is the tears and the crying. I want to come with you. Mummy doesn't go anywhere without me. Max 5:03 She says that. Anna 5:04 Yeah. Claudia 5:05 And she's five? Anna 5:06 Yeah. Max 5:07 I think as well is that you, when she does get upset, you then feel bad don't you? Anna 5:13 Yeah, I feel guilty. Max 5:14 Whereas I'm think a bit more like, she'll be alright, she will be fine. Claudia 5:18 Who says to her... Anna 5:19 Both of us. Claudia 5:20 Both of you? Anna 5:21 Yeah Max 5:21 Yeah. Anna 5:22 You don't think I'm strict enough, but I am strict. Right, I spend a lot of time with these children on my own, and I am strict with them. But I think you have the approach of shouting, and I don't think that's always the best approach. Max 5:34 No. Claudia 5:34 How long were you together, before you had girls? Max 5:37 Not long. Anna 5:37 A year weren't we? Max 5:38 Yeah Claudia 5:39 Oh, wow. Anna 5:40 So it was very quick Claudia 5:41 I love that. In-love. And how has it affected your relationship? Anna 5:46 It doesn't affect our relationship. Max 5:47 No, it doesn't at all. Anna 5:48 No more than the sort of, the general vibe of just everyday, married life of trying to work, look after kids, you know, all of that. Max 5:55 With things like you know, she's suddenly become way more fussy with her food. And with things like that, I'm more like, fine, she doesn't want to eat, then she doesn't eat anything. And that's sometimes where we have those disagreements, isn't it? Where I'm kind of up for being like, ruling with an iron-fist, so to speak. That's the only time when I think, sometimes I get a bit annoyed because, I'll think, you're not really backing me here, on something. Anna 6:20 Yeah, I suppose that's where it causes problems. Claudia 6:23 And also good cop, bad cop. Anna 6:24 Yeah Claudia 6:25 You have to be the same cop, right? Anna 6:26 Yeah, I think you have to be the same cop. Claudia 6:29 Okay, well, Professor Tanya Byron, there's nobody like her. She's gonna come and chat to you both. But thank you so much for coming in. Honestly, because people will be listening going, Oh, yes. Max 6:38 It's those little things that you just kind of want, just want to nail them. So it doesn't escalate into something that's completely unmanageable. Claudia 6:47 No, it's fantastic you're here. Thank you so much for coming in. I'll see you at the end. Anna 6:51 Thank you. Tanya 7:00 Hi. Nice to meet you both. Thanks for doing this. Max 7:04 Pleasure. Tanya 7:05 What do you want to walk away with knowing? Or understanding better? Anna 7:08 Better techniques on how to manage with situations. Max 7:12 I guess it's just having the tools to go away and know that what we're doing is the right thing. Tanya 7:16 I was just hearing you talk to Claude and you were saying about swimming and the neighbours fear that it's going to be traumatic for her. Anna 7:24 And is that what we do... Is that right? Or is that wrong? Tanya 7:26 Yeah and that's often the question. Anna 7:27 I felt awful when she gone off, like really bad. Tanya 7:30 Because she was upset? Anna 7:31 Yeah. Tanya 7:32 First question. Do you want to raise both your kids without them ever being upset? Anna 7:36 Nope. Max 7:38 No Anna 7:39 No. Tanya 7:39 But you struggle to hear it? Anna 7:42 To that extent, because she was really upset. Tanya 7:44 Right? Okay, good. So you're both kind of clear that they're going to absolutely loathe you sometimes. And that's okay. Max 7:51 Yeah Tanya 7:51 But it's something about a dynamic that has happened. What she like with other members of the family? Anna 7:58 Max's dad and stepmum. Tanya 8:01 Yeah. Anna 8:02 And a little bit with my dad on step mom just really cold when they come in the door. Max 8:09 Like kind of like surley, sort of teenager vibes Tanya 8:12 Five going on fifteen. Anna 8:13 Yeah Tanya 8:13 You've obviously got a great relationship, you adore your girls. I can't imagine this doesn't upset you Max. It must hurt sometimes. Max 8:21 It definitely does. If I think, aw yeah, she'll really like doing this. And then she just, not particularly rude, she'll just say, no, thank you. And it does like it definitely upsets me. Tanya 8:31 And how would anyone know that you were upset? Max 8:34 Dunno, I think you know, don't you? Anna 8:36 I can tell, and I think she knows she gets a reaction from it. Max 8:39 I think I've just started now, I kind of ask if she wants to, and if she doesn't want to do it, I just then walk away because I've kind of just accepted that me standing there and trying to you know, bargain to do something really nice, is a bit of a pointless task. So I just kind of, just walk away, slightly dejected. Tanya 8:57 Yeah, but you're, you're upset. Max 8:58 Yeah, definitely. Tanya 8:59 And the reaction that you, I mean, you've made a smart choice, by the way, but previously, how would you react? What would she get from you? Max 9:06 Probably a bit grumpy from me, you know, maybe a little bit childish from me because I'm, I'm hurt Tanya 9:13 But understandable. Max 9:14 Yeah, just from the kind of a, an involuntary reaction to... Tanya 9:18 Of course, of course, I can't believe that it doesn't sometimes cause problems for the two of you. Max 9:24 I think it does when we have differing opinions on how to handle a situation. Anna 9:29 But yeah, we might have the odd little bicker, which isn't great as well. Tanya 9:33 That's normal. We can't bring our children up in some kind of sanitised world. Anna 9:37 Yeah Tanya 9:37 As long as they see that you can kind of resolve it, and you're fine again, I wouldn't beat yourself up over that. But when you are bickering, as every couple does with children, how does it play itself out? What sorts of things? Max 9:50 I think usually it's my kind of my feeling that I don't really have a voice or get supported. Anna 9:57 You feel like you're downtrodden, don't you. Max 9:59 Yeah, downtrodden husband. Tanya 10:00 Right, so you feel that Anna doesn't support you. Max 10:04 I think in certain, certain circumstances. Anna 10:06 I support your your Max 10:07 my what I Anna 10:08 your decisions. Max 10:09 Yeah, yes. Yeah, where were we at then? Anna 10:10 Your like sort of, you know, your parenting, like, you know, I think we should do this and I'll be like well no, actually I don't agree. Tanya 10:24 You started to talk, but then Anna finished the sentence for you, but you were just explaining to me that you feel like you haven't got a voice, and I thought that was important. Describe that a bit more to me. Max 10:34 Just feel a little bit like, maybe my voice isn't as valuable. Things like the bedtime routine. We tried. We really tried, you know, probably two years ago. They would always be like mummy has to come back upstairs. I remember us trying to do it and I remember leaving her crying for like 25 minutes when you were out one night. Anna 10:56 But I don't think that actually, for a little girl, if she wants me to pop in and give her a final kiss of the night. I think that's alright. Tanya 11:03 But of course yeah, children might say, oh, one more kiss for mummy or one more kiss from daddy or whatever. So I don't disagree with you, at all. But I would challenge you, because of an obvious dynamic that is very rejecting of her father. That's where I think it becomes more difficult and it needs to be addressed. I mean, she's in control. Right? So I think we can kind of put that as a headline. I do think it's worth you really looking at that because, I think if this is what you've got at five, at fifteen it's going to be really, really hard. Claudia 11:51 Let me just stop the tape there. I love that because this is good for all of us, that there will be difficult times with our children, because of course, we create these amazing humans, we just want them to be happy. Ice cream for breakfast. Sure. Don't worry about the spelling test. Anything you need. I don't actually do that, I promise you. I could see your face going, oh, dear, Tanya 12:10 I know you don't. Claude, I see you parent, your lovely kids, I know what you do. Claudia 12:16 But things can be difficult, and I don't think that Anna wants any of that. Tanya 12:21 It's interesting, isn't it that she uses words like 'terrified', when when we're looking at her sort of, actioning boundaries, which actually Max is saying, I think we need to just say either you eat that, or nothing. I think it's interesting to see that that makes her feel anxious and protective of Bella. And all of these are feelings that we're all going to have. I mean, we're not robots, you know, we have these feelings towards our children. But I think when it gets to this extreme degree that they're experiencing, where he literally can't have access to his daughter, unless she gives him permission, or it's happened after a massive, massive, sort of screaming fit. You know, that's when you've got to say, this is just not working. Claudia 13:06 Okay. Thanks, Tan. Let's go back to the session. Tanya 13:17 The truth is, I think you know what you need to do, but I think you've come here asking my permission. Anna 13:22 Yeah. Max 13:23 Yeah. Anna 13:24 I think that you're probably right. Tanya 13:25 And what do you, what do you, what would that be? Anna 13:27 Well stand our ground. Tanya 13:29 Exactly. So I, look Anna 13:32 Just do it for an easier life. Tanya 13:34 I think so and you're not here because you literally don't know what to do. You're here because you want me to give you permission, to do something that you know is going to be difficult for her. But actually, it's going to be much more difficult for you. You look a bit... Anna 13:50 No, no, you're right. Absolutely. Tanya 13:52 Has that made you feel a bit... Anna 13:53 No, no, no, how long would it take for something like that? If we, you know, we went away from here today, and we were like right, we're gonna do it straight away, you know, there's... no means no. Quite easy at this age, right? Tanya 14:06 Yeah, absolutely. And I'm going to explain to you a bit later on, a bit about where her brain is in terms of its development. Because I also suspect, because you're articulate people, sometimes, there's too much conversation with her. Yeah, I think you used the word bargaining before. Anna 14:24 Oh my God, negotiation. Her whole life has been negotiation. Tanya 14:27 Yeah, so I hear these words, and I'm tagging them as we go through, right? You said negotiation, you said, and you're, you're right, you're on the money, I've got to stop negotiating with my five year old. It's set a precedent. Which I think helps us understand why for someone so young, she's possibly the most powerful person in the family. And I understand what you're saying, you're both tired, you both work and you've got an 18 month old, I get it. What I'm going to say to you now, is you need to be more afraid of how things will be if you don't do it. Max 14:56 Yeah. I just want my kids to grow up to be sound, to be good people Tanya 15:00 And also not be manipulative in relationships and she is manipulating you. Not because she's a manipulative child, but because you've given her permission. Not overtly, but somethings happened. Anna 15:11 Yeah. Tanya 15:11 So let's get back to these chats you have with her. So we have to remember we're talking about five year olds here. Max 15:17 Yeah Tanya 15:17 What she's processing, isn't what you think she's processing. And I'll tell you why. Max, do you talk to her about what's wrong with daddy or... Max 15:26 The other day with the swimming thing, I was chatting to in the car saying, like, you know, do you understand that makes daddy feel really sad? You know, it's like, if your friend at school didn't ever want to play with you, like that would make you feel really bad, wouldn't it? And she completely blanked me but.. Tanya 15:40 Because she's five. Max 15:40 Yeah. Tanya 15:42 And also, I mean look, it's interesting as well, also, because you're asking her a question, and I think it's a good question on one level, because what you're trying to say to her is, empathy is important and thinking about other people's feelings. But as you both know, I'm sure, when you're in a state, sod empathy. I don't give a damn about your feelings, Max. If you've pissed me off mate, it's a difficult one for even adults to get their head around sometimes. Otherwise we'd all be beautifully empathic all the time. And clearly we're not. So she gets discussions around that, discussion equals attention, yet what other things might you be chatting to her about? So, eating. Eating is a thing. Max 16:23 It feels manipulative, because it's things like, it's things that she's loved for ages. And I think she started to see the reaction when we're just like, God, not another thing. Anna 16:35 But she's not that bad an eater, she is a good eater. But, she's just becoming a bit fussy in the last couple of weeks. Tanya 16:41 So interesting what I saw there, so you're nailing it, and you're saying, I think you know, it's manipulative, and it's annoying, and it's manipulative. And you're kind of protecting her and going, well, yeah, but she is good, which is again, normal, but I can see where it splits you. She really splits you doesn't she? Anna 16:57 She does, yeah. Tanya 16:58 Yeah. And you take the kind of, come on now, we've gotta, we've gotta sort of really, address this, and you're like, yeah but you know. Is that is that fair? Anna 17:09 Absolutely. Yeah. Tanya 17:10 Who wins? Anna 17:11 Me. Tanya 17:13 Okay. I mean, you are winning on all levels. He is pushed out. Anna 17:17 Yeah. Tanya 17:19 He is pushed out. Why do you need to be in the position you're in? Anna 17:24 What? To win? Tanya 17:25 I don't, I wouldn't ask you that, because that feels like I'm saying you're shallow and you're not. Anna 17:29 No, no, no, I don't know. I don't know. No, I don't, it's not that I need to be. I think it's because Tanya 17:33 He's right. Anna 17:36 Yeah Tanya 17:37 He is right. Anna 17:38 Yeah. Tanya 17:39 She is manipulative. Not because she is a manipulative personality... Anna 17:42 She's just in that phase, yeah. Tanya 17:44 It's not a phase, it's her behaviour. Anna 17:47 Right. Tanya 17:47 But it's because she splits you, she has nothing that feels consistent to me. And she's so in control. You know, if I think back to some of the things you said Max as well. You said, so I ask her if she wants, you're asking her? I'm thinking, why don't you just tell her? Anna 18:03 Yeah Max 18:04 Yeah Tanya 18:04 There's something about her that makes you both quite anxious. I think you are a bit worried about her reaction. It's almost like you egg shell it around her sometimes. Max 18:13 Yeah, I think that's fair. Tanya 18:15 I think I slightly upset you when I said, why do you retain the position you're in? Anna 18:19 Yeah. Tanya 18:19 No I did, I can see it hit you, and I don't want to upset you. But I kind of want to get to the heart of this, so you really do leave here knowing what you need to do. Yeah, because I'm not here just to say, oh, here's five techniques, and it'll be done by next Wednesday afternoon, because that's kind of not going to work, to be quite honest. You've got to get this. So, there's something about what's being played out with both of you. The other bit I need to understand is what is your backstory? Because there's something that she's triggering in both of you, that comes way before you had her, probably way before you met each other, that is getting played out here as well. What was your family like, Anna? What's the backstory with that? Anna 19:01 We've actually got very similar upbringing, so both our parents divorced. I was five, he was six. Tanya 19:07 Same age as Bella. Anna 19:08 Yeah. Tanya 19:09 How did they work for both of you? Anna 19:11 Like, I don't think it really affected me. Max 19:15 We lived in Milton Keynes, and then we moved up to Manchester when I was six. So yeah, so we moved away from my dad. I think I saw him like every other weekend, Anna 19:24 You've always felt like you had a funny relationship with your dad, hadn't you? Max 19:28 That's always been difficult, whether that's like, I don't know, abandonment or I don't know. Tanya 19:32 You felt guilty as a child, you abandoned him Max 19:35 I don't really know, I felt like I felt like I never really had, and still don't, and I don't know if I ever will, have the relationship that I would want to have with my dad. Tanya 19:45 Did your dad make an effort to keep a relationship going once you'd left? Max 19:48 Yeah, I mean, they were amazing. My mum and dad would like drive. My mum would drive down to Birmingham, and my dad would drive up to Birmingham, they would meet you know, every every two weeks like, religiously, so it was like, wasn't like, you know, there was a real effort and you kind of have like ideas of things that you want to do with your dad and I was a bit of a bit of a little shit at school so, and my brother was always kind of like the really academic one. It's difficult I guess as a parent, you just want your kids to do well, don't you? And when I was kind of thinking it was funny getting caught, you know, doing x y,z, that's probably why my dad kind of was, you know, reacted the way he did at times. Tanya 20:27 How did you, how did you react? Max 20:29 Just like Anna 20:30 Shouting. Max 20:31 Just shout like, you know, usual stuff, shouting at me, you know, just Tanya 20:34 This idea of kind of, not being good enough, predates how you feel around your daughter sometimes. Max 20:41 Broadly speaking my life, I actually don't really have the imposter syndrome that I've literally had like throughout my career. Tanya 20:48 Yeah. Max 20:49 I'm now kind of at a place where I'm doing better than I've ever done, but I don't have it anymore, which is weird, because it's kind of been something that I've always had, like, I'm gonna get found out. And that's work, but then I guess it kind of is an umbrella for throughout, with everything. Anna 21:06 Confidence, you've suffered from confidence haven't you? Tanya 21:08 Sure, sure. It's interesting, isn't it? Because this idea of an imposter syndrome, it's sort of a bit around balance. So again, here is, here's a situation in your life where you just feel like, I'm not doing a good enough job, my daughter doesn't approve of me as much as she does her mum, I just feel like this is pushing lots of historical buttons for you. Max 21:08 Yeah, you're probably right, yeah. Tanya 21:34 Which makes me understand why you would have sometimes reacted in the way you did. Because it's triggering stuff. Max 21:36 Yeah, it's definitely I think, very triggering because you just kind of, you have an image. And I think this is kind of my problem, it's like with my dad, I have this image of like, you know, baseball gloves and playing catch in the garden Anna 21:48 From an outsider's point of view, I actually think you've got a very nice relationship with your dad now. Max 21:52 Yeah. Anna 21:53 But you can't admit it, you won't ever admit it. Tanya 21:55 But it's something about the legacy, isn't it, something about what you carry and you know, when Max when you were describing when you were six, weren't you, and then you move from Milton Keynes to Manchester. And you use the word abandonment and I was thinking in my head, is he talking about he felt abandoned? Or did he feel like they abandoned your dad? But I just have this sense of just this sort of, this kind of peripheral father who was around who clearly loved you and made an effort to see you and obviously, yeah, absolutely 100%, but it never from the age of six, it never was quite a father son relationship in the way that, I guess, you would have liked that would have worked for you Max 22:38 I think yeah, I think especially in my teenage years. Tanya 22:41 Yeah. And now you're feeling this with your daughter. And when we talk about it, I can see that it triggers you because you start to look quite sad. Max 22:52 Yeah. Tanya 22:53 If we can have a bit more of this conversation and you can kind of think about, the emotion, I think I can then help you park it away from your relationship with your daughter. Max 23:03 Yeah. Tanya 23:04 And I wonder Anna, whether the reason that you tend to protect Bella is because there's a part of you that knows that Max's response to her, is bigger than it should be. Because you know, it belongs to stuff that is got nothing to do with her. Anna 23:22 Yeah. Tanya 23:24 You look sad. Max 23:25 Yeah. Tanya 23:26 What's making you feel tearful? Max 23:28 It's just, yeah, it's tricky, isn't it? Tanya 23:30 Of course, it's tricky. But you know, there's nothing like kids to bring up the old unresolved shit, right? Max 23:35 Yeah, exactly. Tanya 23:36 Children will get lots of feelings from us that are legacy, it's got nothing to do with them. But we project it outwards on them, because for you, because this is a very vulnerable area of your life, relationships and family and rejection. Max 23:52 Yeah Tanya 23:53 I can understand that it's painful. And I think what might also be painful, and this might be hard for you to hear Anna, is that Anna steps in for Bella there. And I almost wonder whether sometimes you feel that you're kind of out on your own a bit. Max 24:12 It does sometimes feel like that. Yeah. Tanya 24:16 My question for you, Anna, and again, it's quite tough question but it's one that's worth asking is, why do you enable this? Anna 24:24 I think it's probably going back to that easy life thing, don't want syrup set. Tanya 24:30 What about Max's hurt? Anna 24:32 Yeah. Tanya 24:38 I'm just gonna push on this a bit more, is that all right? Anna 24:40 Yeah sure Tanya 24:41 And tell me when you want me to just shut up, and I will, but knowing your husband in the way you do, and loving him as you clearly do, in that moment, you have a choice, but there's something that makes you enable Bella to continue to marginalise her father, and that's the bit I can't quite understand. Anna 25:04 I don't think I do, but I obviously do and I think, I think until now I've probably not, we've not quite put the two and two together about yeah I know that it upsets you, but actually not thought about the vulnerability from perhaps previously. So I think obviously, that'll be a lot more in my mind now. If she says she doesn't want to go shopping with you on a Saturday morning, can I make her go shopping with? Max 25:07 I think we can. Tanya 25:27 See, I think you want to do that, but I think you stop it happening. Anna 25:31 Yeah, I do because I just think, for something like shopping, is it really worth causing the upset? That's how I would think and that's probably not right. Tanya 25:38 Listen, I don't think that's a wrong thought. But in the context of what is happening in your family, and how did you feel going shopping on your own? Anna 25:47 You get used to it, I'd say. Max 25:48 I mean, I'm used to it, like the shopping thing. Tanya 25:52 Can I tell you this breaks my heart. It's like you've become used to something that feels really difficult, really painful. Because since we've had the conversation about five minutes ago, something in you has changed. I can see you feel very vulnerable now. Max 26:08 Yeah, yeah. Tanya 26:11 And I think your gut instinct as a parent has been, we shouldn't ask her, we should tell her. I think that's your gut instinct. Max 26:18 Yeah. Tanya 26:19 But you've been overruled. Anna 26:20 Yeah. Tanya 26:21 We're going to stop, and I'm going to set you a task, if that's alright. I'll give you a bit of paper and a pen and I just want you both to list out everything about her that's challenging. Anna 26:30 Yeah. Tanya 26:31 And the amazing stuff we park, because that's the stuff you notice and plaster with attention. And the other stuff, the stuff that's difficult at times, well you ignore it, but you've got to have a strategy. Anna 26:42 Yeah, yeah, that's what yeah. Tanya 26:43 You're asking me good questions, you're saying what do I do then if I go out? Good question. You work it out. And I'll tell you, work together on this and where you're struggling, that's what we'll talk about at the end of it. Claudia 27:08 So Max and Anna's in, they came in, and I think facing a problem that lots of people who are listening will go, oh, yeah. Why did you go back? Why did you ask them about their own backstory? Tanya 27:20 They understand how to be parents, you know? So the question is always, why are you struggling to do what I know, you know, you need to do? Because I said that quite early on, if you remember. Claudia 27:32 You did, you said, you, you, you've come in here to basically ask for permission. Tanya 27:37 Yes. Claudia 27:37 And you look at why they can't do it, rather than what they have to do. Tanya 27:41 So we know something, but then we feel something and when we feel something, if it's overwhelming, that's going to skew the way we then action what we know, you know, it's going to get in the way, emotion can cloud judgement. And, you know, it was it was really important, I think particularly you know, Max said really early on, I feel I don't have a voice. He feels marginalised, he feels on the edge, he feels rejected and then you hear his story and you can understand why this has played out with him and his daughter and his reactions to her in the past have probably been, you know, impacted on the development of their relationship because what she's triggering in him, you know, she's just being a normal kid who's just saying I want mummy, but he's hearing something amplified in stereo, which goes back to when he was six, and he left his dad behind in Milton Keynes, and then you know, it's a struggle. It's a real struggle. And that's the bit that we all have to understand, why are we struggling with stuff that doesn't belong to our kid? Claudia 28:39 They're about to come back in. This is what I want to happen but bearing in mind, I'm an idiot. I don't want him to be the punishment. I don't want them to leave and then go back, they won't be able to help themselves maybe and go Bella, things are going to change, mummy's going out five nights next week and daddy's putting you to bed. What I'd like, is maybe them both to go out, or mummy and daddy to have a romantic dinner at home, and maybe mummy's too busy to go upstairs and put her to bed because she's fanning out some biscuits for pudding. Am I? Am I wrong? Tanya 29:16 No Claude, you're not. Claudia 29:17 I don't want him to be the punishment like, oh, yeah, I'll take her shopping, kicking and screaming. That's not right. Tanya 29:23 I absolutely agree with you and Claude, you know, I think we should do one podcast, we do a job swap. I think you've got to do my job. Claudia 29:29 No, I don't know how to do it, you know, and also, I want her to say in front of the girls, let's see what daddy thinks. Tanya 29:36 Yeah, I think that's your point. I think that's where you nail it. In terms of the fact that the only way this is going to work is if it's united, and it comes from both of them. You're absolutely right. Otherwise, all we achieve, is Bella being forced into a different kind of dynamic, but in a way that makes her unhappy. And it's daddy that has to kind of do that. Claudia 29:57 Yeah and mummy's rolling her eyes going sorry, but you know, the new way of living. What are you going to do? Tanya 30:03 Tanya Byron and Claudia Winkleman told us to do this. No, you're absolutely right. And I think, I think that's it. It's about unity, it's about consistency, and it's about freeing children from this position of power that many kids are given, because we're all a bit too worried about our kids being upset. And I think once children become that powerful, they behave like dictators. So you know, that's got to be addressed. Claudia 30:31 Take the medals away. Tanya 30:32 Absolutely. Absolutely. Claudia 30:34 Thank you, I'll go and get them. Tanya 30:49 Here's the thing, there you are, primed with your bit of paper. What's the stuff that needs to change? Anna 30:54 Right so, the fuzziness and manipulativeness, rudeness and impatient. So impatient. Max 31:01 She won't even wait like five seconds. Tanya 31:02 She's probably bright, you know, the brighter the kid and the younger the kid, the more impatient they are. Max 31:07 She's a bit of a spoiled brat I think sometimes. Tanya 31:09 In what sense? Max 31:10 Well, this is something we had to debate about upstair, like, I think if we take her out for dinner, that she should appreciate that. Anna 31:18 I always think she should be really grateful, but really, if she sat in a pub or she sat in a restaurant, she finds it bloody boring. Tanya 31:23 Maybe there's something in the middle of that, right? Anna 31:24 Yeah, yeah. Tanya 31:25 Okay. Maybe you just talking about manners? Max and Anna 31:27 Yeah. Tanya 31:28 What I would say to you, is when you're discussing some of this after today, when you find you're coming at it from a different angle, which you will do because you are two different people, try and find the principle, because you're both going to be absolutely agreeing on the principle. So the principle you're identifying here is, she doesn't show appropriate manners. So what you then got to think is we want her to be more polite. Why are we not getting it? I suspect it's because you're asking her for it. I think you can set out the principles and say okay, we're going to Granny and Grandpa, you know, just you know, it'd be really nice if you could say hello nicely and when we leave, I think it's important that you say thank you. And then when you leave, you say, okay, darling, you say thank you to her. If she doesn't, then when you get home, you simply say no story tonight, and there's no TV. And that's because you didn't show nice manners, and we want nice manners. So love you very much, but goodnight. 100% Anna 32:21 No more conversation. Tanya 32:21 No more conversation, she's then going to be furious, of course, because she's kind of got away with this in the past, because what you've been doing hasn't been effective. And then you're going to have to deal with her and upset and coming out of her bedroom, and you're going to have to keep putting her back in, and you're just gonna have to be very calm, not give her attention. And you've just got to keep thinking, 13 years old, not eating breakfast, you don't tell a 13 year old to eat. But what you do say is fine, if you don't look after yourself in the way that I as your mother, as your father, are telling you to, then clearly, you can't have your phone at the moment and you're not going out. So, then we've got a clear boundary there and a clear consequence. Do you see what I mean? Max 33:04 Because it's a total shift in our approach, so that first time she's not going to really have a clue that the goalposts have moved. Tanya 33:12 The rule for me would be, only ever ask or tell a child something twice, once nicely, and then once firmly, and then there has to be a consequence. So if it's done, amazing, praise, that was lovely, did you see Granny? She looked so happy, shall we sneak an extra story in tonight, and let's not tell mum says best dad in the world, right? You know what I mean? If she doesn't, say to Granny and Grandad I'm really sorry about that, but listen, lovely to see you hug, hug, hug. And then you say to her, we're disappointed that you didn't say goodbye to your grandparents. That's bad manners. And we know that you can do better than that. But this is going to be the consequence. Anna 33:53 Yeah, because what we would normally do in that situation and I remember, we've driven away before from your parents and we've just wittled on about it to her for ages. One of us, taking it in turns Max 34:06 Just try get to the bottom of it. Tanya 34:08 And what you reckon is going on in her head? Max 34:12 Probably carousel music. Tanya 34:13 Right, I'm just going to tell you a little bit about why you don't want to be having so many chats, negotiations and you certainly don't want to be asking her permission. And that's kind of around the brain development, I'm going to do that quickly. The bit of the brain that is responsible for decision making, problem solving, rational thought is in the frontal cortex, it's the prefrontal cortex, it's the front part of the brain, and it's the least well developed part of the brain at birth. Development through childhood and adolescence means that that part of the brain, gets wired-up, connected, and it starts to function. Now we've also got another part of our brain, the limbic brain, which is emotion, anxiety, the fight or flight response. So we got the limbic brain, which is the aahh brain and then we've got the frontal cortex, which is the thoughtful brain. The three of us are all doing frontal cortex now, right? Just a bit earlier, when we were talking a bit about your dad and the move and the feelings, you became a little bit limbic. And one of the things that told me you were limbic, apart from the fact you had tears in your eyes, Max is that you didn't really say very much and you're a very chatty guy. Max 35:21 Yeah. Tanya 35:21 It all just kind of shut down a little bit, and you were feeling. Max 35:25 Yeah. Tanya 35:26 When we're looking at a five year old, whose frontal cortex is still very early development stage. They're not going to be able to rationalise how they're feeling. But when we start having conversations or asking permission or telling a child, they're just going to behave like a child, which is kind of irrationally. 'I just want mummy!' Literally, she is not processing it at any level that you think she is. Okay. Anna 35:55 Yeah, I do say that to him sometimes. Tanya 35:58 With a five year old, show, don't tell. You lead by example. Her behaviour is begging for boundaries. If you give her tonnes of praise and love and all of that stuff, when you just notice a small moment here and there and whatever, and that's when she gets the attention and when she's demanding, screaming and crying, you're just calm and loving. Keep her safe and everything, but you're not engaging with it at all. Anna 36:24 So not punishing you mean or?. Tanya 36:28 I don't see where you need to punish her. Anna 36:30 No, but I mean, like, right, like if she was being I don't know... Max 36:33 Well yeah, she has on occasion, like, you know, hit one of us two hasn't she, so like in that sort of situation, stick her on timeout. Tanya 36:41 The reason timeout is useful, is that there are moments when if we're all in each other's company, we're not going to calm down, we're going to keep screaming. So timeout is about just kind of, everybody gets separated so we can calm down, but it is also a very clear indication to a child, this is not acceptable. The problem is she gets most of her attention for the behaviour you don't want her to be doing. You might as well be giving her a fiver every time she has a tantrum. You see what I mean? Anna 37:09 Yeah. Tanya 37:11 Don't get too caught up in the detail. Just go with the process. Be united in the moment, if one of you is thinking, aw I don't think I agree with that, have that conversation later. And also, in the moment where you're both feeling a bit confused, there's a technique called the Greek chorus where you can do the, oh, Daddy, I've just asked Bella blah, blah, blah, and she's just done this. I think that that's not okay and I think we should do this. What do you think? You know what, mummy, I agree. But I think let's ask her one more time, and give her a moment just to see you unitedly think about it in front of her. And if she goes, 'I'm not doing it!' then it's fine, okay, Plan B, which is ignore, set a boundary, and there's a consequence. Anna 38:01 There's no point saying, at that time, this is the consequence, is there? You got to let her calm down and then say, right, because you acted like that, this isn't happening. Tanya 38:10 Yeah. Anna 38:10 Is that right? Tanya 38:11 Just yeah, you know, and you know, with bedtime, you know, anybody who stays in bed and sleeps well through the night, you know, if she likes jigsaw puzzles, every morning, there will be a piece of a new, fabulous jigsaw puzzle under her pillow, just incentivize the stuff you want as well. The situation also has to be that, you know, Max has to create his relationship with her. So you might want to think about what can be daddy and Bella time maybe there's a new activity, maybe you can start some kind of thing on the weekend together. Max and Anna 38:43 Yeah Tanya 38:43 Something something that's just you and her, because it's also important that she has a sense of her relationship with you that isn't just, oh well, I'll put up with him because I'm not with my mum. Anna 38:53 Trampolining couldn't it? Max 38:54 Yeah. Tanya 38:56 What I would also suggest is, in the moments where it feels like it's gone absolutely like nuclear, what happened there? Then, when we've all you know, she's asleep, whatever, sit down, did we give attention in the wrong way? No, actually, we were pretty good at ignoring that. Okay, so that was okay. Hmm? Did we ask her 500 times not twice? Yeah, we've got to remember once nicely, once firmly. Okay, log that. Did we remember to show a united front? No, we kind of didn't. Her response to you is useful because she will be telling you when you're being shit parents, so celebrate those moments and think okay, thanks, Bella, thanks for showing us that we got that bit wrong, because if we can get it better now, the years when the prefrontal cortex really goes through major changes, which is adolescence, they're going to be tough, but you're going to feel like you know what you're doing. And that's, that's, that's the thing. We're playing a long game here. Max 39:51 Yeah. Thank you so much. It's really helpful. Tanya 39:54 You are good parents. Just don't be afraid of her rage and please understand that when kids get upset, they're not going to break and they're not going to be in therapy for the rest of their lives. Okay. Claudia 40:12 How are you feeling? Max 40:13 Yeah good, I was a bit shell shocked before, but I'm alright now. Anna 40:13 Good It was um, I think the first half, it was a lot heavier than we expected. But good? Claudia 40:23 But really good. Do you feel nervous or do you feel ready to go home? Anna 40:27 I feel ready, I feel a bit nervous. Max 40:29 I've got my eyes wide open, I think it will be difficult, and I think you'll find it particularly difficult. I think I'm better at kind of switching up. Anna 40:36 I think we can do that, I think I think that the thing we will find the hardest is the United Front. Claudia 40:41 I hope he never listens to this, even if you fake it, I mean, I do it with my husband all the time. When the kids come in and go, dad is going to take us trampolining, after we've had a massive chocolate cake and it's 6pm on a Sunday, and they haven't done the homework. And I'm like, is he mad? Is he unwell? Do I have to Leave him? Is he joking? But instead I go, great! Well then, later on you can go, dude, what are you doing? Yeah, hello. Can we have a conversation about this? The other thing is, I know it sounds ridiculous, whoever whichever parent is feeling a bit small, shall we say? Like choosing what we're going to eat on a Sunday lunch is like major in our house, and I don't think my husband has ever had the choice. He'll just eat whatever my 13 year old wants with the 16 year olds in charge. Let's be honest, the eight year old runs all of us, whatever it is, but quite nice for you to go, let's find out what Daddy wants to eat. Anna 41:06 Yeah. Claudia 41:34 Can you do that? Anna 41:35 Yeah, I can do that. Claudia 41:37 Because she'll just clock all of that. Max and Anna 41:39 Yeah, yeah. Claudia 41:40 Just pretend. Max 41:42 Yeah. Give me a win. Claudia 41:45 Give him a few wins. Anna 41:46 I can do that, I can do that. Max 41:49 It'll do wonders for my self confidence Claudia 41:52 No but also, because they're transmitters. Max 41:55 Totally, yeah. Claudia 41:55 They just see everything, and they go, oh, mummy wants to do this, daddy says he wants to go to the park, whereas I wanted to do this. But mummy's, mummy's choosing daddy's choice. Max and Anna 42:05 Yeah, yeah. Claudia 42:08 Thank you so much for coming in. Please will you let us know. Max and Anna 42:12 We will, yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Claudia 42:22 Tan, Max and Anna, and their girls, I mean, this is what we, this is what we always discuss. We discussed it with mine, we've discussed it with yours. I mean, yeah. Because they're obviously lovely people, their girls are lovely. But there was, there's just a thing, there's just a bump. Tanya 42:39 Yeah. Claudia 42:39 And when you're in it, you don't know how to fix it. Tanya 42:41 Yeah, splitting is a big problem in families when kids can split parents because kids need consistency, they need clarity, generally it works better if you can remain calm. If you can remember that the feelings you're having are probably exaggerated because it's probably to do with your own legacy stuff. You know? I mean look, it sounds easy when I say it, I was, you know, I wasn't a complete genius doing it with my own children. You know, sometimes my husband say, oh, what do you do for a living? You know, I think it's it's important to help couples remember that they've kind of got to do it together. Claudia 43:18 Yeah, I imagine makes the kids feel safe. Tanya 43:20 I kind of find in my 30 years of clinical practice, and maybe it's the fault of people like me, who've put more of the psychology out there, that people come in with this real sense of anxiety that they're damaging their children. You know, I think what is damaging a lot of children these days is that they, they don't have enough, adversity is the wrong word, but it's all so easy, and it's all so nice and everything's all smooth, and we're all trying to be happy, so if you shed a tear, we're all going to jump up and down until you're smiling and giggling and making us feel like we're good parents, doesn't build resilience and you know, I feel at home Bella you know, she's quite fragile, isn't she? She has her tantrums and that's because she doesn't feel as safe as she does, for example, when you put her at school and the rules are clear, and she's a really lovely well behaved little girl. Claudia 43:33 I was slightly worried when Anna said putting on a united front is going to be difficult. And I said, you have to do it together. Tanya 44:13 Togetherness is really, really, really important. Obviously, there are some families where it's really important that a parent steps in and stops, things going on. But we're not dealing with that here, right? We're dealing with people who are kind and good and loving, and they've got the best interest of their child at heart. But for whatever reason, they just can't tolerate some level of unhappiness from their child and so it completely dictates the way in which they try and parent their child. I don't want to scare people. But I say think of the long game. Claudia 44:43 No I know, that was so interesting, when you said look, if you don't decide boundaries now, when she's 14, and she wants to smoke inside, or if she decides that school is no longer for her, or whatever, then how to go, no this is a way of behaving. Tanya 44:57 It's about a respect in a relationship. You know, when we think about families, you know, you'll see me Claude on my clipboard, I draw circles for women and squares for men and I draw out what's called a genogram. I draw out the family, and what you want is you want a circle and a square connected at the top, that's mom and dad, a line coming down between them. And below, you've got in this case, two little circles, which are the two little girls. But actually, if you draw this family, the Bella circle and the mum circle are right up at the top, we've got Tilly there as well, and then we've got the square, Max, sort of somewhere at the bottom. So you just see the structure of the family is very kind of unbalanced and it's all in the wrong place and children act out also because they need boundaries. You know, it's almost like you know, when I work with teenagers who are really acting out in ways that are very distressing, you know, the child is kind of saying what do I need to do to get you just to sort of help me to stop? Claudia 45:52 Okay, you're so clever, I'm so pleased they came in. Tanya 45:55 Your clever too, right Claudia 45:56 Don't be ridiculous. Tanya 45:57 Well, this is what's annoying about you. Claudia 45:59 Thank you. Tanya 46:00 My pleasure. I love you. Claudia 46:01 I love you more. Tanya 46:02 Ok, should we go home? Claudia 46:02 Yeah. Just a quick heads up, if you haven't already, please click on the subscribe button, and you'll receive free episodes literally the minute they're ready. Please do rate and comment. If you're interested in taking part in future episodes of 'How Did We Get Here?', please email parenting at somethinelse.com that's parenting at something, without a G, else.com. Next time, we meet Charlotte, the birth of your daughter, which has been an incredible event in your life, has really floored you because her arrival in your life, has made you begin to feel, you're not in control of anything. Charlotte 46:47 Yeah, you've nailed it. Claudia 46:50 Right back to that little girl aren't you? Because that's the person that you become when you start screaming at your husband. This podcast was possible with the help of the following people at Somethin' Else. The sound of mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the assistant producer is Hannah Talbot, the producer is Selina Ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening! Transcribed by https://otter.ai