Shahlaa 0:10 Sometimes I see my dad and me where I can be quite abusive towards him. Tanya 0:15 Does that scare you? Shahlaa 0:17 Yeah. Tanya 0:20 You look sad Shahlaa 0:21 Yeah, because I know that for him. I mean his his upbringing was totally different. Claudia 0:35 Hello, and welcome to How did we get here. The podcast where myself, Claudia Winkleman, and my friend,the very brilliant Professor Tanya Byron, identify difficulties faced by real life parents and family members in special face to face sessions. In each episode Tanya talks to someone in a private room and I listen in from the producers cubicle making notes so I can ask Tanya afterwards to explain why she's gone down a particular path, so don't be alarmed if I stop tape. Ie pause to pick Tanya's brains. This time we meet Shahlaa. She's a 30 year old teacher who has a husband and one year old daughter named River. Shahlaa came to us because she's struggling with the demands of full time work, and having a family. River is a much longed for child. Shahlaa had four miscarriages previously, and she feels very guilty about wanting a career. Instead of being a stay at home mom. Shahlaa discovers that the way she reacts to the pressures of her work life balance and linked to the unpredictability of her childhood and her relationship with her mother. Tanya 1:39 The Birth of your daughter which has been an incredible event in your life, has really floored you because her arrival in your life has made you begin to feel you're not in control of anything Shahlaa 1:54 Yeah, you've nailed it Claudia 1:57 what you're about to hear are key parts of a one time unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on useful links and contacts, some of which you will find in the programme notes of this episode. Let's go and meet Shahlaa. Shahlaa, thank you so much for coming in today. Shahlaa 2:20 You're welcome Claudia 2:20 Why are you here? Shahlaa 2:22 Mainly just because I really underestimated being a parent. And now I'm in it. I'm kind of struggling navigating in finding myself. Claudia 2:33 Yeah. Shahlaa 2:34 Now I'm, I'm dealing with someone else as well. Also, I find that like within my community that with Afro Caribbean culture, it's really rare that you're allowed to really talk about how you're struggling. And so I like to try and think I could be a voice for other moms from my community who need support, but they're too afraid to speak out about it. Claudia 2:57 What did you think it was going to be like? Did you literally I'll give birth fine, take the baby everywhere. Shahlaa 3:02 I just thought it wouldn't change me as a person much what I prioritise. And also a thought that because I wasn't doing it like as a single parent, and my partner is very supportive, I thought it would be okay there's two of us. But what I've realised is actually moms do about 95% of it. Claudia 3:22 They do Shahlaa 3:23 Yeah, Claudia 3:24 I mean, however wonderful. The man is often the baby wants the mummy or maybe you just feel all the pressure on on you. Are there moments where you just go this is too much. Shahlaa 3:35 Yeah, more recently because I've just gone back to work. Claudia 3:39 How are you finding that? Shahlaa 3:40 It's just exhausting. And she's still not sleeping through the night. And even like this morning she was in hysterics she didn't want me to leave her. Claudia 3:48 So how do you find your time when you're away from her because lots of moms choose when to go back to work and often they have to go back when the baby six weeks, maybe a year and a half. I know some people quite like the time to themselves and others just can't be away from their baby. How are you in that? Shahlaa 4:06 So I went back part time. I teach so I was doing some private training, but I started that when she was about three months, which in hindsight is crazy like I don't know what I was doing. Now being back full time the new problems are just spending quality time with her because by the time I'm with her my brain is so fried that I just want to sit in front of the TV and i'm i'm really against her being one of these children who just watched TV and so I'm trying to force myself to read a book or play or do something Claudia 4:39 But that can be tiring Shahlaa 4:41 yeah Claudia 4:41 When you're halfway through making a you know, a fort out of cereal packet and you go do you know what i would like to just have a lie down Shahlaa 4:49 Yeah, Claudia 4:49 I think it's brilliant. You're here thank you so much because so many people go, Oh, baby fine, and we believe this is sort of fairy tale. Shahlaa 4:57 Yes, Claudia 4:57 That it's easy as pie and it'sfantastic you have come into about how it's affecting you. So thank you so much. And I'm gonna send Tan in. Tanya 5:13 Hello, nice to meet you. I'm Tanya Shahlaa 5:16 Hello nice to meet you Tanya 5:17 I was just listening to talking to Claude. It sounds like you're saying I just need somebody to help me find my balance. Shahlaa 5:24 Yeah, Tanya 5:24 Is that right? Shahlaa 5:25 Yeah I definitely think I've lost myself a bit in playing all these roles. I think I was a lot worse before when when I was at home Tanya 5:35 When you say worse tell me what you mean by that sweetheart Shahlaa 5:37 My mental health was just going that real down. Tanya 5:40 Right Shahlaa 5:41 and I really struggled with being a stay at home mom and I love my daughter so much and Tanya 5:47 but you feel guilty even saying that don't you Shahlaa 5:49 Yeah, Tanya 5:50 yeah, I can see that Shahlaa 5:51 It's even funny when other moms go oh my god. i didn't think I was gonna cry. Tanya 5:56 It's all right, darling. Shahlaa 5:57 Whenever mums say things like how has it being a Mom, and my first reaction is I'm just always tired. And they look at me. Like, what do you mean? You always like that they don't expect that response. They expect me to oh it's amazing my daughter. And so yeah, there's a a lot of guilt Tanya 6:15 Yeah I see that. But you're sort of beating yourself up that you're not this earth mother who's just saying, I just want to be with my child all the time. I mean, you. It sounds like you're also doing the working mother guilt here as well. Prior to the pregnancy. Is there a bit of you that has felt vulnerable at times? Shahlaa 6:33 I did grow up in a house where there' quite and abusive, verbally abusive, and domestic violence towards my mom, Tanya 6:42 right from your Shahlaa 6:43 from my dad, Tanya 6:44 father, right and you witness that, did you? Shahlaa 6:48 Yeah, Tanya 6:48 from what age From as young as I can remember. Until they got divorced. I was about 15 Oh so that's a long time and that so that's traumatic. Shahlaa 6:58 Yeah, it's definitely impacted my relationship with my dad growing up. And then as an adult when my mom remarried and brought a new man into the house, that's when at 18 I was asked to leave the family home. Tanya 7:17 You were asked to leave. Shahlaa 7:18 Yeah Tanya 7:18 Why was that? Shahlaa 7:19 Just because I didn't get on with him really well. Tanya 7:22 And what was it about him that you struggled with? Shahlaa 7:25 He was in the house and kind of tried to take over. And so I rebelled against that a lot. And my mom just didn't like it. Because in her eyes, this was now happiness that I was impacting on. When I turned 18 it was okay. You can you're grown up now. Go. Tanya 7:45 And what does that feel like? Does that feel like your mom's rejecting you in favour ofsomeone else? How did that feel? Shahlaa 7:54 It was really tough and it did really strain our relationship and to this day it's still strained because of it. Tanya 8:02 In what way do you think? Shahlaa 8:03 I think my relationship with my mom as I got older is definitely why as well as a mom now. I feel the pressure to be this perfect mom. Tanya 8:14 Right. That's absolutely you've nailed it. As you were just telling me about your childhood, I was thinking, you've got a background and a family and and a childhood. And the issue with your mom that I can imagine makes you feel like you are going to do it so differently. Shahlaa 8:30 Yeah, Tanya 8:31 and you're going to get it just right. And it's just gonna be so different for your daughter. She's never going to feel what you felt she's never gonna feel afraid. She's never gonna hear verbal abuse. And you're never going to ask her to leave. Shahlaa 8:46 Yeah. Tanya 8:47 But that's a pressure. What happens to you and you get overwhelmed and tired and anxious. Are you someone who lets it all out? Or are you someone who just closes down? How would How would I know if I knew you? Well, that you were really struggling how would your behaviour change? Shahlaa 9:01 With friends? I just kind of shut down. But my Mr. Gets it so Tanya 9:08 when you say gets it You mean he understands? Shahlaa 9:10 The aggression Tanya 9:11 Oh so you you become aggressive. Shahlaa 9:12 Yeah. Tanya 9:13 What happens? Shahlaa 9:15 Just get really snappy with him really aggravated. Sometimes I see my dad in me where I can be quite abusive towards him. Tanya 9:25 Does that scare you? Shahlaa 9:26 Yeah. Tanya 9:30 You look sad. Shahlaa 9:31 Yeah, because Tanya 9:34 It's alright sweetheart Shahlaa 9:36 because I know that for him. His upbringing was totally different. And words really hurt him. And I'm aware with this but because I'm so immune to it. I have to really control my language around him because this is normal to me. It's annoying. Because I've seen how damaging it can be. Tanya 10:03 But it's difficult, isn't it when that's normalised for you as a child, when when all you see is that loss of control Shahlaa 10:10 yeah, Tanya 10:10 when emotions are running high. As much as intellectually, you know, you don't want to be that person. It's almost like you're saying something. It's like a switch flicks. And it all comes pouring out. And is there a part of you that's thinking, as you're being verbally abusive to your partner. I shouldn't be doing this Stop, stop, or do you just find yourself just in a space where you just can't control it? Shahlaa 10:35 It's more on reflexion where I think oh that was really mean. Tanya 10:40 So you recognise he becomes an emotional punch bag. Shahlaa 10:44 Yeah, yeah. Tanya 10:45 Okay. Do you worry that you might be a parent like your father was who would just lose it. And it might affect her one day Shahlaa 10:53 I really hope not. And we have talked about that. Tanya 10:58 You and your husband? Shahlaa 10:59 Yeah me and husband talked about, we like controlling what we say how we say things around her. Because he he's he said to me, this will just continue generation to generation if you don't stop. Tanya 11:14 What you're experiencing is this. It's called transgenerational patterns. We repeat the patterns of the past, even though everything in our heart and soul is telling us to be different. So then I imagine you must go through a process of utterly beating yourself up. Shahlaa 11:30 Yeah, because he's such a good man. Tanya 11:32 Do you know what I really admire about you? You are an incredibly self aware woman. And you're incredibly honest. I mean, we've been talking for what less than 10 minutes? Shahlaa 11:41 Yeah, Tanya 11:42 you just get it. So I can see that the issue for you isn't that you just don't understand yourself. You really understand yourself. You're just, I think quite terrified that you don't know how to change this bit of yourself. Shahlaa 11:56 Yeah, Tanya 11:56 because knowing is a big part of solving a problem. We both know that when you're being aggressive with your husband, he knows and you know, in that moment, or at least afterwards, it's not really about him. Shahlaa 12:12 Yeah. Tanya 12:12 So therefore, in order to resolve any issue, what we've got to do is think, well, what is it really about? Because if we really understand what it's about, and we tackle it at that level, then if you like, the behaviour that you're displaying, that will then start to shift. So if you take a medical model, your aggression towards your husband is the symptom. Right. But as with any medical issue, the symptom is only an indication that something isn't quite right. So I think what you and I have to do now today is we have to think, Okay, why is this symptom persisting? And you've already given me some clues, so I want you to help me with this. You've used the word perfectionist. You've talked about growing up in a domestically violent household. You've talked about a sense of rejection and abandonment by your mum. You've talked about huge expectations of motherhood and suddenly thinking you're not fulfilling them. That's a huge list. Where do we start? Because I think within that we will find your story and when we nail your story we'll then nail the solution. Claudia 13:32 Okay, it's me Claud, this seems like a good place to stop tape. As I mentioned, I might do earlier, I wanted to talk to Tanya, because I'm astounded how these chats can start off as one thing, and then morph into something else. Shahlaa 13:46 Hello Claudia 13:47 So I tell you what, you're like some magic. I don't even know what you are. Tanya 13:54 I'm a clinical psychologist Claudia Claudia 13:55 Yes, what's what you are. Well, you're extraordinary because I chat with her and I Thought it's lovely that she's come in because I know that lots of women think it's going to be fairytale and they all sort of fumble and it's never what we think it is. And she'd been with you for three minutes, and then she was in tears. And there's a much bigger story there. Now, maybe you'll say that all of us have got big story. But listening to her. It was. I don't mean to be patronising. But suddenly everything makes sense. Tanya 14:28 Yeah, that's right. Claudia 14:30 Did it feel like that for you when you were talking to her? Tanya 14:32 Yes, it did. I felt. Here's a woman who she's really self aware. Claudia 14:39 Yeah, Tanya 14:39 she's very psychologically minded. She really gets herself in lots of ways, but something shifts and she feels helpless and powerless. So I guess when you meet people like that, there has got to be a story. There has got to be a reason because she doesn't want to be the person she becomes when she becomes overwhelmed by anxiety Claudia 15:01 Okay, good. Let's go back to the interview to see what you both uncover. Shahlaa 15:05 I don't know where to start Tanya 15:26 Tell me about being a perfectionist. So many women have unrealistic expectations of themselves. You are that women arn't you, Shahlaa 15:38 I guess so yeah Tanya 15:41 How often do you tell yourself should in your head. I should be doing this. I should have done that Shahlaa 15:48 At least four or five times a day. Tanya 15:51 So the word should indicates that you're falling short. What do you think you're falling short at? Shahlaa 16:01 Every aspect of my life there's, there's always something I'm thinking that I could have done better or I should have done it a different way. Tanya 16:09 And what about with your daughter? Do you think you should do things differently? You could be a better mother. Shahlaa 16:16 I think I've recently started to get back into the swing of being at work, but then it's really impacting how much time I'm spending with her. And it really hurts when like her nursery or my mom, you know, tells me little steps. She's made and I'm just not there to see it, I'm just not aware. Obviously, they grow so quickly. And I feel like I'm just missing so much. But then when I was at home, I was so overwhelmed with being just at home in that cycle of being at home. So I don't even know like what the balance is for me that I would be comfortable with. Tanya 16:59 The problem you've got is your complete, you've completely trapped yourself because there is literally no way you could ever be based on your expectations that you're going to feel fine. Because you can't be everywhere. Have you always been this perfectionist with these really unrealistic expectations of yourself? Shahlaa 17:16 It started from when I was younger amongst my siblings. I was seen as like the dumb one. Tanya 17:25 Well they were wrong right? Everyone was wrong Shahlaa 17:27 Well on paper now I'm actually the highest educated but Tanya 17:31 Good for you. Shahlaa 17:32 And it was my my teachers actually saying no, you're really good. And I think their confidence in me gave me that I'm going to prove you lot all wrong. Tanya 17:42 Excellent. Shahlaa 17:43 Now I feel this constant pressure that Tanya 17:45 got to keep proving yourself. Shahlaa 17:46 Yeah. Tanya 17:47 What's the hardest aspect of life at the moment for you? Is it the exhaustion? Shahlaa 17:54 Yeah, I'm feeling my I'm always compromising how well I'm doing everything. Because I'm so tired. Tanya 18:02 What's the kind of community based or cultural based kind of idea about motherhood that you've been impacted by? Do you think? Shahlaa 18:09 Even if I just look at my mom and my grandmother, there hasn't been much support there from either of them. Because I think in their heads, well, we did it. Tanya 18:20 You just get on with it. Shahlaa 18:21 Yeah. Tanya 18:22 As you're talking, I'm thinking about a little girl living in a family where raised voices and shouting and maybe worse was something that you might have heard quite often. Were you one of these kids who could desensitise to it quite quickly, or were you a child who was kind of very sort of anxious just waiting for the next time there was going to be an explosion. Shahlaa 18:47 I think in my younger years, it was fear, but around when the separation divorce started happening, I just started rebelling and I just wouldn't go home. I was just always out with my friends. Tanya 18:59 avoidance. Shahlaa 19:00 Yeah Tanya 19:00 and anger when you were there. Shahlaa 19:02 Yeah, Tanya 19:03 just go back to the to the child who's afraid. The fear was about what? Can you remember just what that might have felt like when you were little? Shahlaa 19:12 I mean, I think definitely, he was very unpredictable. He's the type of man who could shout at you and and like, lock you in your room and and not let you out, and then in the next breath, try and crack a joke with you like nothing had happened. And that used to really frustrate me because then if you didn't laugh at his joke, he would take it offensive but you've just hurt and abused me. Yeah. Tanya 19:40 So your childhood was unpredictable. Emotionally, it was unpredictable. And your response to that when you were little was to be anxious. Shahlaa 19:48 Yeah. Tanya 19:49 So that to me, helps me understand why now you're a woman who feels really really anxious when you feel out of control. Shahlaa 20:00 Yeah. Tanya 20:01 And the birth of your daughter, which has been an incredible event in your life has really floored you. Because her arrival in your life has made you begun to feel you're not in control of anything Shahlaa 20:17 Yeah, you've nailed it. Tanya 20:19 So you're right back to that little girl, aren't you? Because that's the person that you become when you start screaming at your husband. Shahlaa 20:25 Yeah, Tanya 20:26 You become the frightened little girl who then became the angry, rebellious teenager. So it's anxiety darling isn't it? It's almost like you have a massive tantrum. Shahlaa 20:37 Yeah, that's what he said, Tanya 20:39 Yeah , like an anxious little girl. Shahlaa 20:41 Yeah, Tanya 20:42 Yeah. You didn't know where you were. It must have been really, really destabilising for you. And the reason you're struggling to adapt, is because you now feel out of control. And it takes you back to the little girl who fell out of control when the household was full of tension and anguish and fear.Have you ever thought of it like that before? Shahlaa 21:06 No, wow, that makes a lot of sense. Tanya 21:11 Because if you heal that little girl, you'll stop feeling like you have to control everything. Because not being good at everything doesn't mean that the world is going to fall apart. But when you were a child, that's what it meant. Shahlaa 21:26 Yeah. Tanya 21:30 So what do you think we should do about it? Shahlaa 21:32 Just, Yeah, sometimes just letting it be. My husband is very good at that. So maybe I need to take a bit of advice from him. Tanya 21:43 So number one, maybe you want to be able to allow your husband, include him more, let him be more part of the processes, even if the way he thinks of doing things isn't quite how you would do it. Shahlaa 21:59 Hearing you saying that is scaring me Tanya 22:02 You suddenly held your breath when I said that. Why is that love? Shahlaa 22:07 I needed curry powder and he bought something else that was like a type of curry powder. But it wasn't the usual curry powder. I don't know what this tastes like, why have you bought this? Tanya 22:18 And you just lost it? Shahlaa 22:19 Go back, and he went back to the shop and changed it because I just was like I'm not cooking with this. It's gonna ruin the whole dinner Tanya 22:26 control, control control control. And that's linked to fear. Shahlaa 22:30 Yeah, Tanya 22:31 Okay. If you think in our head, we need little boxes to file different life experiences, you know, that goes in that one that goes in that box, whatever. You know, you compartmentalise things as a way of managing life. Shahlaa 22:41 Yeah. Tanya 22:42 And I think you've got two boxes in your head that we need to think about how you're going to grow them. One box is called shit happens. And the other box is called fuck it. Fuck it he didn't get the curry powder Shahlaa 22:58 Yeah. Tanya 23:00 What does that sound like to you? Shahlaa 23:02 Pretty reckless Tanya 23:03 Why? I mean, I think it would be reckless if we were talking about your child safety. Shahlaa 23:09 Yeah. Tanya 23:10 Being able to sometimes say, oh fuck it, or you know what shit happens and then move on. Why is that reckless? What are your strategies? What do you do just to kind of look after yourself to deal with the stress and the anxiety and the exhaustion? Shahlaa 23:34 Sometimes I just go to bed. I just watch some trash TV. Tanya 23:39 How much exercise do you do? Shahlaa 23:41 Not a lot. Tanya 23:44 What's your sleep like? Shahlaa 23:47 On average, I would say only about five hours a day. Tanya 23:52 What time do you go to bed? Shahlaa 23:55 About 1 or 2. Tanya 23:57 My goodness. Shahlaa 23:58 Very rare. Yesterday I fell asleep sitting up on the sofa at 7.30. And that is the earliest I've gone to bed in about six, seven years. If I'm in bed before 12 that is a major achievement. Tanya 23:59 So you're exhausted when you wake up? Shahlaa 24:12 Yeah. Tanya 24:13 Okay, so why don't you go to bed earlier? Shahlaa 24:15 I just can't sleep sometimes Tanya 24:17 Because your mind is whizzing, whizzing whizzing. Okay. If we think about the relationship between exercise, sleep and mental well being, how do you think you're scoring on the self care scale? Shahlaa 24:34 Not very high. Tanya 24:37 Why do you know why regular exercise is so important particularly for people who struggle with anxiety? Do you know what it does? It increases the endorphins which is a chemical in your brain. And it also has an impact on serotonin which is the neuro chemical associated with mood, Shahlaa 24:56 Okay, Tanya 24:57 and my instinct is is that your serotonin levels are quite low. So it doesn't take a lot to trigger your mood. So what we need to think about are lifestyle changes that are going to bang up those levels, because you'll find your anxiety levels will come down. Shahlaa 25:12 Yeah. Tanya 25:13 So that's point number one. Point number two is, I never want you to fall asleep on the sofa, I want you to switch off all screens, at least an hour before you go to bed. I want you to then have a nice bath, chill out, and I want you in bed before midnight. And I need you to do that religiously. Because that is going to have a massive impact on your mood. So that's point number one. Point number two. I think it would be really helpful for you to find some support to talk through the domestic violence you heard and witnessed as a child. Shahlaa 25:48 Yeah. Tanya 25:49 I'm going to give you some time to think about what we've talked about, and then we'll work out what do you need me for now to help you move forward Claudia 26:07 Alright, it's back to us chatting Claud and Tan in our little half time sum up, if you will. What was so extraordinary is listening to her I could I felt like I could hear her just piece it all together. As I was listening when you've said, you get angry because a lack of control is what scared you. I mean, what an extraordinary upbringing she had. And then being asked to leave when she was 18. And all of these things as you kept on saying you're a survivor, you're a survivor of domestic abuse. And you become that little girl again, and that's what happens when you scream at your husband for getting the wrong curry powder and she, you could hear her just go. She looks so relaxed, she looked so put together. She's obviously a brilliant teacher, a wonderful mum. I'd quite like to try her curry. I imagine it's amazing. The best curry on the street. Everything she's doing is to perfection. And I thought maybe you two are going to have a chat about oh yeah, choosing where to put the nappy table is quite hard work. But all of a sudden, it took a totally different turn. And the way you put it all together, and of course, nobody had looked after that little girl Tanya 27:17 she's never been looked after. And now the responsibility of looking after her own little girl. It just overwhelms her and it terrifies her. And the anxiety that she's feeling then becomes rage. Claudia 27:30 Yeah. Tanya 27:31 And then the rage, she identifies as something she recognises, witnessing when she was a child. And the thought that her daughter will see her emulate what she experienced when she was a child, terrifies her further, so she becomes more anxious, and then there's more rage, and so it's a horrible self feeding monster. And in a sense, you can only really begin to shift these kinds of behaviours. When you really understand what sits behind them. Claudia 28:04 Can we talk about the boxes? We all need these boxes, which is shit happens and fuck it. Tanya 28:10 Yeah. Claudia 28:12 Is that something that you will give to people? Tanya 28:14 As I've seen life and society change, I think what I've seen is the pressure, the pressure that we put on ourselves and the pressure that is put upon children. You know, it's all externalised markers of what it is to be a successful human being. And interestingly, as we're living in an age in a time where, you know, we're probably physically more healthy than we've ever been, mentally with the least healthy we've ever been. So something isn't working. And I think a fear of failure, a need to be in control, a lack of ability to sometimes go ah well, you know, fuck it, nevermind, maybe I'll do better next time. Or oh, well, you know, shit happens. I just I don't see that so much anymore. But her response to me was, but that feels really reckless. And of course, it would be reckless if you are driving a car, of course you can't. But it's about giving yourself permission to sometimes be good enough to not be the best at everything. And to recognise that not always being control, control control doesn't equal, the world is going to explode. And it doesn't. Claudia 29:25 What was interesting that I just found fascinating, because I can sometimes be quite horrible to my husband, but you are often you're often mean, somebody like you I think used the word, a punch bag. So she said it might not be anything. She said, it might be something that's happened to me at the shops, but somebody's got to get it. And it's going to be him. And that's obviously what my father did. Tanya 29:44 That's exactly right. And we're often the most unpleasant to the people were the closest to because they're the least likely to leave us Claudia 29:53 Also. And then I'll get out the way because I know she's having a drink and chill and then she'll come back in. We should say to parents listening, that, like you said, a cuddle on the sofa, it doesn't always have to be. Whatever you see whatever you read, let's make this towel and cushion into an alligator. Let's do a puzzle. Let's do that. That can be exhausting. Also for the baby, maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better because you know, I just like a Lie down, a lie down and I like to lick their necks Tanya 30:23 But you you do and you cuddle them a lot and Just for what it's worth for the public who are listening. Your kids are very well adjusted, your kids, your kids. Your kids are just relaxed and loved and that's basically what kids need. They need love and cuddles and they don't need super mother and Super dad Claudia 30:50 No Tanya 30:50 They just need space and time. That's it Claudia 30:54 Yes. Final thing for anyone who's listening going I get really angry as well. Can you teach Shahlaa? Is there a? Is there an exercise when he comes back with the wrong curry pop? Is there something she can do to stop getting to DEF CON five? Tanya 31:12 And that's what we're going to do now.I'm going to teach us some anger management techniques. Claudia 31:16 Brilliant. Let's return to the session. Tanya 31:35 Why don't you tell me where you are up to with me? Shahlaa 31:40 I definitely need to think about the scale of things. When I'm feeling things are out of control or. It's not going right. Tanya 31:51 You could let stuff go a bit more. And not catastrophize it. Shahlaa 31:55 Yeah. Tanya 31:56 And actually see it for what it is. Shahlaa 31:57 Yeah, Tanya 31:58 Okay. Classically, I see this often, a childhood survivor of domestic abuse, and you've never had any space to think about that. So you carry that with you. Shahlaa 32:12 I think I only realised that in the last maybe five years. Tanya 32:15 And I think it makes you frightened that you're going to turn into your father. Shahlaa 32:19 Yeah. Tanya 32:19 Which you, you can't and you won't because you're not that person. But you need to free yourself up from that. So that your daughter, she doesn't have to get any of that. Shahlaa 32:30 Yeah, Tanya 32:31 because it's not really about her. It's not really about the wrong curry powder being brought home. It's not really about whatever's happened in your working day. Shahlaa 32:39 Yeah Tanya 32:39 It's about a sudden fear of a loss of control. Which links back to a really terrifying time in your life when you were little. Shahlaa 32:47 Yeah. Tanya 32:48 I think you need to sleep better. I think you need to exercise and and I think, value that space. Just do something for you. I think you'll find it. Incredibly therapeutic. Shahlaa 33:02 Yeah. Tanya 33:03 And the only other thing I wanted to talk about just now was to give you some strategies for managing the anger. Shahlaa 33:08 Yeah. Tanya 33:09 What kinds of things do you try and do when you feel yourself getting really angry? Shahlaa 33:13 The problem is I normally try not to say anything until there's a list of things Tanya 33:20 And then you blow. Shahlaa 33:21 Yeah. Tanya 33:21 Okay. When you look at that list, are they all pretty inconsequential? Shahlaa 33:25 Yes, it's never anything too. Major. Tanya 33:29 Just irritations? Shahlaa 33:30 Yeah. Tanya 33:31 And how much do you think your partner sometimes doesn't do enough? Because you have not allowed him to believe that he can do things because you like to be so controlling that you tend to do everything anyway. Shahlaa 33:44 He says that to me all the time. So he says he said to me before I make him anxious when I let him do something because he's so worried he's gonna get it wrong, and then I'm gonna go mad at him. So Tanya 34:01 You need to learn to delegate. And he needs permission to have time and space with his daughter to do things his way. Shahlaa 34:07 Yeah. Tanya 34:08 And you need to be able to feel okay with that, and not feel scared. Remember the word you used when I said, what about your partner doing more, and you looked at me and you went, that feels really reckless. It would also free you up. If you don't feel like you have to do everything, then it's a win win. He gets time with his daughter to do things his way. And you get time for yourself to recharge your batteries. Shahlaa 34:32 Yeah Tanya 34:33 From an anger management point of view, my advice would be, you could just keep a little list everyday or a little journal things that you know, when you say it's that list that builds up, maybe if you write them down as you feel them and then just ask yourself a question, like you said, at the beginning of our conversation just now, I need to get more of a perspective Shahlaa 34:51 Yeah. Tanya 34:53 How important is this? And if it's not important, you cross it off the list. And if there are things on the list that do feel important then you think about how you can have a conversation with your partner. Hey, can we go for a walk? When she's in bed can we just you know, sit down, have a drink, there's a couple of things I want to talk through with you so it becomes a conversation. Shahlaa 35:11 Yeah. Tanya 35:12 Rather than you store it up and store up and store it up, and it becomes a bomb that then explodes. Shahlaa 35:16 Yeah Tanya 35:17 Sometimes if we keep a journal, it's quite a useful way of self checking. Shahlaa 35:20 Yeah. Tanya 35:21 And saying to yourself with each one, is this a fuck it shit happens moment, or is this a? No, actually, I think I do need to talk to him about this. And maybe there's something that I'm doing that's causing a problem here. So let's try and work it out. Because you are a good partnership, aren't you? Shahlaa 35:35 Yeah. Tanya 35:36 I think when you feel that you're about to lose it. My advice is walk away. Just say to him, Look, I'm trying to manage my anger, which I know comes from anxiety. So if I feel it's coming, I'm just gonna go and get some air. It's really important so that you can then just breathe, bring your anxiety levels down. There's some really good apps. I don't know if you've heard there's an app called headspace. There's another one called calm. There's another one called clear fear. These are all apps that are for people who can get these sudden spikes of anxiety. Shahlaa 36:08 Yeah Tanya 36:09 You've just got somebody just kind of talking you through your breathing, talking you through settling your mind. And just ground yourself in the moment. Shahlaa 36:18 Yeah Tanya 36:19 Mindfulness is what that technique is called. because fundamentally, when we get angry, we flip from our rational brain into our emotional bit of our brain. And what these apps and audio they're really good at. It's like having come out having a therapist with you just talking you down. Have a look at all the different ones. There's fantastic apps out there. And just take a breath. Pause, bring down the heart rate, settle the breathing, get the oxygenated blood back into the front of the brain. So you're thinking rationally again And then decide Shahlaa 36:59 Okay, Tanya 37:00 And I know you can do it. Because now you understand why you do it. Shahlaa 37:03 Yeah, Tanya 37:04 I know you can do it. Anything you want to ask me or anything you want to say before we finish? Shahlaa 37:10 I just think this has been very insightful and helpful. My husband's gonna be very happy when I talk to him about some of the things we've talked about Tanya 37:21 You look very emotional. What's made you feel tearful as we finish? Shahlaa 37:26 Just think I've never really understood why I'm like this. I just thought I was a bit of a bitch. To be honest. Tanya 37:38 But now you know why. Shahlaa 37:39 Yeah. Tanya 37:40 And if you look after that bit of you, then you'll be an even better mom than you are already and you're much better than you think you are. I just want you to stop being so tough on yourself. Shahlaa 37:52 Yeah. Tanya 37:53 I know parents who aren't necessarily up to the job of parenting when I meet them. And you are so not that woman. Shahlaa 38:01 Thank you Tanya 38:03 She's very lucky to have you. Shahlaa 38:05 Thank you Claudia 38:13 I was crying listening to you. I mean, are you're alright. Shahlaa 38:17 Yeah Claudia 38:18 It's sort of, that was a big chat. And to be honest, when I chatted to you earlier, I mean, I'm an idiot, but I just thought, I don't know. I don't know if you'll have stuff to talk about because you were like, yes, you know, babies one, but then all of this other stuff Shahlaa 38:36 Just came out. Yeah. Claudia 38:37 Are you happy you came? Shahlaa 38:38 Really happy. I've never really had a chance to talk through all that. So it's nice to get a perspective. Claudia 38:46 And also, we're both going to sit here crying, but also there'll be people listening you will have helped so many people who go Oh, I mean, I didn't even know which way it was going. But the minute Tanya said You are just going back to the little girl. And she wasn't looked after. It was incredibly moving to hear. And I think your husband will be happy won't he. Shahlaa 39:10 Yeah. Claudia 39:11 Cuz you've had this chat. I've assumed you love the boxes. I loved the boxes Shahlaa 39:18 Yeah, yeah. Claudia 39:19 I didn't know about the boxes and I was like Wow. So honestly, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Do you feel all right? Do you feel strong? Shahlaa 39:28 I feel, Yeah. Much more. So much more in control. Claudia 39:33 Good! Shahlaa 39:33 But in a good way Claudia 39:35 In a good way. Who are you going to phone first? Shahlaa 39:38 Yeah, definitely need to talk to the Mr. Claudia 39:41 Yeah, and the main message I know there's a more important message but I do want you to tell him from me that you can get whatever curry powder he likes. Shahlaa 39:49 Ok, he'll love that. Claudia 39:51 Doesn't matter. Garam masala ,mild, hot he's in the shop. Let him choose. Shahlaa 39:56 Yeah. Claudia 39:57 And also if you're upset with his curry powder. That's also fine. Shahlaa 40:01 Yeah Claudia 40:02 But you might have to go into another room, do some breathing. Anyway, however you do it. But I really hope that you've loved today. Shahlaa 40:09 I have. Thank you. Claudia 40:15 I think Shahlaa had no idea what was going to come out of that session. And I'm incredibly happy for her. And her husband if that's not a weird thing to say, I think that she was a different person. I don't want to exaggerate but she felt to me totally different from when I first saw her till after. Tanya 40:37 I feel really sad when I meet women like Shahlaa because you see the burden of guilt and responsibility they carry for a legacy that they were not responsible for. And when you're a child in a abusive and aggressive household, you know, children often normalise that it is just what it was like and as She said, you know, back when she was a kid, it was less openly talked about. Claudia 41:04 And also her mum put on a show that everything was fine. Like she does. Tanya 41:08 Yeah, that's right. And then of course, she behaves in ways when she gets anxious and she gets angry. She then is terrified. She's perhaps turning into her father. And this isn't about judging her parents. It's not about judgement at all. I mean, if anything, it's, it's about releasing her from her own self judgement, because she's so self critical. Like every working mom, you know, or non working mom, she's trying to do her best. But if we spend our time only focusing on what we should be doing and we could be doing and might have been better, we just lose those magical moments and life just passes in a blur of anxiety, unhappiness and exhaustion. And I think if I've helped her free herself up from that, just by understanding, Claudia 41:53 Yeah Tanya 41:53 Why she finds herself reacting in the way she does. I hope she gets better sleep and she does a bit more exercise. And I feel really pleased that I've had the opportunity to talk to her. Claudia 42:05 When I came in, afterwards she was in tears, and she just said, I always knew about my childhood, but I, I never thought it affected the way I behaved. And I imagined most of us, all of us maybe walk around like that. Tanya 42:19 Yeah, and you can see why this lovely man that she's married to who obviously, you know, cares deeply for her and for their child, how just a simple mistake whether it's not cleaning the bath properly, or bringing home the wrong curry powder or whatever triggers this sense of not being looked after, you know, there's just this sense of things not being right and a lack of control. And also, I think she makes the mistake that a lot of, of women do in relationships where we're so controlling that we can't allow our partner any space to to be involved and then resent our partners for not being involved and then if they do get involved, we resent them for not doing it in the way we have done it. So, as my mom once said to me, you know, you want your partner to do more, do less. Claudia 43:06 Yes, that's excellent advice. Tanya 43:09 That's right. Anxiety is pernicious. You know, it just kind of it can sit behind so much of what we do in a way that's really unhelpful. Often people don't recognise that rages actually come from anxiety. And I think for her to understand her anxiety is for her to free herself, I think, in a way, and to give herself a break. Claudia 43:29 Yeah. Just don't sweat the small stuff. But when we gave her a cuddle today, we just said, just, you know, she doesn't talk to anybody the same way she talks to herself, which is you're an idiot, you've messed up. No, no, you're doing it all brilliantly. Tanya 43:42 Actually, sometimes, even if you're not doing it brilliantly. It doesn't matter because if our children can't learn from us that the world isn't perfect, and that sometimes the people they love the most, their parents are imperfect. How are they going to cope when they leave us? Claudia 43:57 Yeah Tanya 43:58 We can't always get it all right. And that's okay. Claudia 44:02 Yeah, but also the answer we know this is they should never leave us. And without Tanya 44:07 Claudia, I really need to help your children. I need to help them leave you. Claudia 44:12 Yeah, we'll do that at a different session Tanya 44:14 A different session. Yeah. Claudia 44:15 Thank you. Tanya 44:16 That's all right, my love. Claudia 44:25 Also, before we go, I just want to say that if you want free episodes of this podcast, why not? Please hit the subscribe button, you'll find it there somewhere on the screen. I think. Plus, if you enjoyed this podcast, please do Rate, Comment, Share, make a hoo ha. It makes us very, very happy. And it sort of spreads the word. If you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email parenting@ somethinelse.com that's parenting@somethin without a G else.com. Next time we meet Lydia Tanya 45:01 There's one thing you haven't told me? Lydia 45:03 Yes, I just wondered because maybe it will bring maybe a little bit more perspective to is to why I maybe am gonna feel this way of loss and it makes a lot of sense because, l lost my parents, lost obviously my partner, you know. And then also I had another child when I was 16. Tanya 45:23 Right Lydia 45:24 And I gave it up for adoption. Claudia 45:28 This podcast was possible with the help of lovely people at something else. The sound engineer is Benjamin Lincoln. The mix engineer is Josh gibbs. The assistant producer is Hannah Talbot. The producer is Selina ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you very much for listening. We're incredibly grateful. Transcribed by https://otter.ai