Claudia 0:07 Please note there are some very emotional scenes within this podcast that may not be suitable for everyone. Lidia 0:15 It makes me feel scared. Tanya 0:17 What are you scared of? Lidia 0:19 Like I guess the unknown, like how it's going to, how it's gonna affect me, how I'm gonna feel. Tanya 0:28 So you're scared for yourself? Lidia 0:30 Yeah, I guess a little bit Claudia 0:33 Hello and welcome to 'How Did We Get Here?', the podcast where me, Claudia Winkleman and my great friend, Professor Tanya Byron, explore the difficulties people are facing with their nearest and dearest. Tanya talks to people in a special face to face session, while I'm taking notes from another room. In the break, I asked Tan why she pulled on particular threads to understand the subject better, and learn how her process as a clinical psychologist works. This time we meet Lidia. She's a single parent with a 15 year old daughter, Chanel, who was diagnosed with ADHD age nine. While they are managing the ADHD, Chanel has separation anxiety, and we discovered that Lidia has suffered a lot of loss in the past. This has caused her to have her own anxiety and separation issues. Lidia 1:18 I couldn't even go the toilet on my own a few years ago, like literally, I'm looking at where we've got to go to, where we've got to get to, up there, and I'm looking at where we've come from. It is going to take hard work and it is gonna, you know, probably be quite hurtful. Claudia 1:37 What you're about to hear a key parts of a one time, unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on useful links and contacts, some of which you will find in the programme notes of this episode. Let's go and meet Lidia. Hi, good morning. Lidia 1:59 Good morning. Claudia 2:01 Thank you so much for coming in! Lidia 2:03 It's nice to meet you. Claudia 2:05 You're Lidia? Lidia 2:05 Yes, I am Lidia. Claudia 2:06 Tell me, why are you here? Lidia 2:09 Well, today I am here, because, well mostly, two major things. It was obviously to get some amazing advice from Professor Tanya. But then also, I've got a daughter of 15 years old and she's got ADHD. And I found that like, obviously, going through the whole time when she was younger, like, you know, you get a lot of support and advice and medications and doctors, but when they have to transition from adolescence to almost like adulthood, like ADHD doesn't disappear. I mean, it might be a little bit better, but like, how do I as like as a single mum, like help her transition with her ADHD, you know, going to live alone, like getting a job and stuff like that, because, like, I feel really lost. Obviously, the practical stuff, but also like, you know, the, you know, getting her the confidence to do that. Because she's always relied on me for everything. How do I prepare her? Because there's not a lot of support emotionally, you know mentally for ADHD. So that was the one thing and then the other thing is, she's grown up without a father since the age of two. She's had a lot of anger in her life, when she was younger, and now if she doesn't want to know that he's her dad and stuff like that. You know, that is really heartbreaking. Claudia 3:19 You've got a lot going on. Lidia 3:20 Yeah, so. Claudia 3:21 I don't know enough about ADHD. Of course, Tan does. But how, how does it, how does it appear? Tell me, tell me about your girl. Lidia 3:30 So obviously ADHD is Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder, so she's she used to be very hyperactive when she was young. Things like forgetfulness, impulsiveness, she doesn't know how to plan properly, so like you want to teach her to make eggs and she'll like... standing there and I'll obviously be guiding her and then she'll put the frying pan on, and put the stove on, and then like the stove is burning on a pan. I'm like well where are the eggs? Where is the oil? So it's all that, you know the pre-things, how you plan, short-term memory, obviously at school she has you know, education, the grades are not as great because of her attention span. Claudia 4:06 Does she have lovely friends? Lidia 4:07 That's also quite a tricky thing. She's got one good friend. She has gone through a lot of gruelling since since we basically came to England. She's been bullied. She had to move schools the beginning of this year because she was threatened to be stabbed with a knife, so she's had to go through that. She makes friends, she's a good person, good friend, but people always class you know, ADHD kids as being the naughty ones, because they don't sit still, they backtrack, they're impulsive. So she has struggled with that too. Claudia 4:33 Poor girl, she's gone through a lot. Also changing schools at 15, is stress.. Lidia 4:38 Yeah, she's gone through a lot. I'm actually very proud of her because she's you know, considering we moved from South Africa, she left her dad, and you know, she's been bullied. She's gone through three moves. Yeah, it's been really hard and obviously having ADHD, now that she's older, she sort of accepts it more because when you get you know, you sort of understand it, when she was younger, you know, she used to, she used to hate herself and like, I don't want to be different. Like, I don't want to have a brain that doesn't think like normal people, you know? Claudia 5:09 I mean, she's so lucky to have you because you have so much knowledge. I mean, you've already taught me, everybody who is listening, so much about what she has to go through on a daily, just using the eggs as an example. She puts that on. And for the rest of us, we would know to crack an egg or however it works. Lidia 5:26 Yes. Claudia 5:27 Has she met other people who also have ADHD? Would that be helpful? Lidia 5:30 I find now, that my daughter obviously getting older, she actually can see it in other children. And she's, you know, now able to offer that advice and give, you know, tools to kids of 10 you know, stuff like that. It's weird because it's almost like, ADHD attracts ADHD. It's just really, you know, like it's as if they get along better. Claudia 5:51 Because they understand each other. Lidia 5:52 Yeah, so it is it is quite interesting, but we have had a lot of challenges. And also not only because she's got ADHD, she's got separation anxiety. Claudia 6:03 So talk to me about that Tanya 6:04 When she was young, like 6, 7, 8, when we moved over yeah, she was fine, like she used to go to sleep overs, you know she would leave me and go to people and then it just it just really really got bad and I don't know if something you know, triggered it. And it could also be because you know, we moved over here, I'm on my own, it's just the two of us, you know, we had no one and I think she was always worried and she still is. I have to text her like where I am. And do you worry about her? Do you text her? No, I don't actually. Obviously when she goes to school and when she goes out and stuff, I don't constantly call her and stuff because she needs to obviously know to grow up, you know, to actually this is what life is about. Obviously a few years ago, as I was saying I was in a really bad place as her separation anxiety got so bad that she didn't want to go to school. If it was raining or storm, she didn't want to go to school and leave me so she's had some CBT, she's managed to sort of, come quite a far away and we've dealt with it. She still is struggling with separation anxiety. Claudia 6:48 So if you said to her, look, I'm going out with friends tonight and I'm going to leave you with, I don't know, a great babysitter or a friend of hers, how would she cope with that? Lidia 7:12 She wouldn't be able to do that. Yeah, she'd literally throw a massive... she'd have a meltdown. Yeah, so she can't, I mean, she can't do sleepovers. She really really battles and that's something we're working towards, is getting her to go for a sleepover. Claudia 7:26 So could you have dinner with friends? Tanya 7:27 Before I couldn't because she'd be phoning me, where are you? Are you done yet? It has improved, you know, so we obviously are walking forward because getting to the age of 15-16 next year, you know, you think, this is what they do, but she's different and I don't put, I try not put pressure on her. Because I don't want to you know, when you push someone too much, then Claudia 7:47 Of course Lidia 7:48 ...you know she'll just like go crazy. So I just you know, I just say to her, you know you need to work on it. You know it is heartbreaking because she really wants to. Claudia 7:56 Yeah. Lidia 7:56 But she finds it really hard. I never used to go out, I never had a social life and hence that's why three years ago, you know, I was drinking a lot and I was smoking and I was just really in a bad place, I had to pull myself out of that place and realise that, you know, that's not going to help me obviously be a good mum and be there for her. Claudia 8:14 You seem like a brilliant mum, and you seem like a brilliant team. What's the one thing, if you could just distil it to the one thing when you leave here, what would you like to have? Tanya 8:24 Ingest to how, you know, I can support her emotionally and mentally, with me being on my own as a single parent, you know, because it's, like, I need top up, I don't have that input and support to support her in her, you know, going forward in her journey, you know, because it's like a transition. So, you know, how do I support her with that? Claudia 8:45 Okay, well, you've come to the best place, because Tanya will come in now. Thank you so much for coming in. I'll see you at the end. Lidia 8:51 Okay. Tanya 8:52 Hi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. It's really interesting listening to you with Claude. Oh, you get it, don't you? She's lucky to have I mean, I agree with Claude, she's lucky to have you as her mum. Yeah, I think I'm lucky to have her as a daughter too. Yeah. I just wondered whether it be helpful for us to start with ADHD. How have you kind of grown to understand it? So I think I was in a little bit of denial because her dad he's got ADHD and he took Ritalin at school at a young age and I do know, obviously, it's mostly hereditary. You know, 7,8,9, it wasn't great, like, you know, the school was calling me every day and With what sorts of things? Lidia 9:38 Well, she didn't sit still in school, in class she was like, really going into a lot of like, tantrums. And I knew that that was not normal for a nine year old. So I had to obviously go down the route of having her assessed and stuff like that, you know, and we had to put her on medication, and it helped her for so many years. Tanya 10:00 How? Lidia 10:01 So at school, concentration, the you know, the memory, the impulsiveness. I didn't get a call every day Tanya 10:09 And she's not taking medication now? Because she's got very bad anxiety, when we went to go get the medication, the pharmacist brought out this long list of side effects and he started reading, oh yeah, yeah, this could happen and this is a risk and then she, and as soon as she heard that she's like, I'm not taking it. She's gonna do what's right for her but it's worth thinking a little bit about medication and thinking whether there would be something that would work for her. Because obviously she's got her GCSEs coming up. Lidia 10:34 So what the school is going to do, is they're actually going to assess her, every single teacher, while she works they're going to focus on the points of concentration, memory, her homework, so really like zone in. Tanya 10:47 I can just see you are her advocate every single step of the way. But presumably, it must have made you very attached and almost enmeshed with each other. And there is anxiety aswell and separation anxiety and you've had issues with anxiety, so she's obviously somewhere in there, she's got a bit of that from you. Tell me a little bit about that. I have had anxiety and so has my my mum. I've been for CBT so my anxiety has decreased. We had a very traumatic experience about two years ago where we sadly witnessed a friend of mines baby pass away, and I saw the baby pass away and that like really triggered my anxiety. How did that happen? Lidia 11:31 So she passed away with cot death and she was only a month old and we happened just to sleep over at this friend's house and we woke up in the morning and she told me that the baby's dead and then we walked up and my daughter luckily and her kids didn't see anything. Luckily they were asleep in the room but, and that just like, triggered my anxiety and I couldn't go on trains. I was just so anxious all the time. So I've had to go back and deal with it. In terms of her like I've always tried to not hide anxiety, but I always try not get anxious in front of her because I know like it rubs off. But it's so weird because we can actually sense each other's anxiety that's like really how... Tanya 12:09 Yeah, absolutely and and also having a child from a very young age where the school be calling, oh, hello, just to say. That it's going to trigger you, often. You must have felt very stressed and anxious, you know, in those early years, but it sounds like you've done a lot of work to to manage that. Lidia 12:25 Yeah. Tanya 12:25 Did you say your mum struggles with anxiety? My mum's passed away, so she passed away when I was 22. So and my dad passed away when I was nine. So separation for you and loss and your mum dying when you were 22, and your dad when you were nine, your friends, baby. I mean I've had a lot You've had a lot and it's interesting that you're seeing separation anxiety with your daughter. We start to see these sort of overlapping narratives, don't we? Where does it take you now as you're talking about it? Because you've changed, your face has changed, you're tearing up a bit. With my parents, like I think at the age of nine when I lost my father, he was like my life, you know, I idolised him although he was he was a terrible dad. He was very abusive and stuff like that, but I idolised him as a father. Lidia 13:10 He used to hit my mum, like he used to beat my mum and he was an alcoholic. So... Tanya 13:11 Why was he abusive? Right. Lidia 13:18 But he never used to hit me, I was like, his his, brown-eyed, girl. Tanya 13:22 How do you rationalise that? It must be very difficult because on the one hand, he adored you and on the other hand, he was abusive to your mother. I mean, it's a very difficult rationalisation for you. Lidia 13:36 You know, he obviously did try to be a good dad and when when he used to be abusive towards my mum, he was usually drunk. I don't know why he did it. Yeah, I think maybe he had a tough life and he didn't know how to necessarily deal or cope with his inside, the way he felt. Tanya 13:53 You're very forgiving actually, aren't you? For for someone who is obviously an abuser. Lidia 13:59 Yeah Tanya 13:59 I'm curious that you're now not with Chanel's biological father. Why did that fall apart? Lidia 14:05 So he was actually, I mean, he's actually well he was a really really great dad, while we were together. So I think the reason why we split up is his parents were very involved with our life. We argued a lot and his parents were very, very trying to control of how you know, how to raise Chanel, and the one day, I must say, and this probably was the final straw, is he also drank and he pushed me, like not major, we were just having an argument and pushed me and I said that's it. Because I basically made a vow that I would never ever allow any man to treat me or my family like God.. my dad. And I also said that my daughter would always come first in my life because sadly my mom, you know, after my father passed away, she was just with men and boys and stuff like that. So that was like her priority. So we were sort of like left to our own devices. Tanya 14:10 So I'm just sort of thinking as you're talking. We have a situation now where you're sort of very aware that you're your own child is at that kind of transitional point in her life where she's becoming a young adult, and she's over attached to you, you then had this kind of childhood where attachment was on the one hand with your father, kind of excessively loving. On the other hand, his behaviour towards your mother was brutal. So that's going to make attachment, very anxious for you. You then meet a man who, by dint of his parents, there was a kind of level of over attachment, claustrophobia something that you struggle with. So it's interesting that something about relationships and attachment is quite challenging for you and you've you've landed up just kind of you and your daughter as a unit. Yeah. Not that I asked for it, to be honest. Like I think I gave up the whole trying to find and dating and stuff like that, to have a bit of an easier life because it was so hard with her because I did have a boyfriend a while back and it did not go well. When I talked about him like sleeping over eventually [she] said like, No, he's not sleeping over. So yeah, definitely not wanting to share me at all. But that gives her a lot of power and control in a way that isn't healthy. Lidia 16:16 Yes. Tanya 16:17 Why didn't you push back harder? Lidia 16:19 I think I just didn't want to fight. I just thought you know what? Also I don't think I liked the guy (loved him) enough to actually fight for it. I t's a lot of work, dating. Tanya 16:33 But you think it's maybe part of the problem is that you've put your needs on hold to the degree that she's your daughter, she's your Mate. She's almost like your partner in a way. It's just you and her. So that's actually problematic for her in terms of how she makes this next step forward in her life. How does she leave you? So I just wonder whether by sort of not wanting her to get anxious and upset, you've to some degree been a bit complicit in the separation. Lidia 17:04 Yes, we are. We are like partners. Someone even commented, we're like an old married couple. Like yeah, we laugh about it, but actually.. Tanya 17:12 You know, you look really uncomfortable when you tell me that. Yeah. Actually, you look a bit upset.. what's upset you about that? Because I think I get it. Because, you know, like, I'm having to really try and do it and I mean, she has improved like 100% you know, I couldn't even go the toilet on my own a few years ago, like literally, I'm looking at where we've gotta go to, where we've got to get to, and I'm looking at where we've come from. It is gonna take hard work and it is gonna you know, probably be quite hurtful. Claudia 17:59 I found it so interesting. So I'm just going to stop it there because Lidia was obviously upset, because somebody had called her and her daughter Chanel, an old married couple. Tanya 18:10 Yes. It's interesting that isn't it? Because I guess what she was describing is somebody else's perception of their relationship as being almost over attached. Claudia 18:21 You have to be a parent and not a friend, don't you? But we want them to like us. That's when it's tricky. Tanya 18:27 It's not helpful at all. Absolutely not helpful at all. But then when you have a child who has a neurodevelopmental difference, that is going to make life more challenging for them, and school and relationships more challenging for them, you're going to be extremely protective. Then if you're a single parent, and it's just you and your only single child, you become extremely kind of close and and almost in meshed with each other. That's when the boundaries in the relationship get blurred. And I think at this moment, here she is with her 15 year old really struggling to know how to move her daughter on but actually she had to move herself on in the relationship because they are so tightly in meshed and there is so much anxiety around the relationship. Claudia 19:14 Okay, thank you for explaining that back to the session Tanya 19:28 What are you the most worried aboutwhen you contemplate this? Because this feels like a big transitional point for you and her. Claudia 19:34 Her getting upset about decisions that I make. Tanya 19:38 And why shouldn't she get upset? I mean, listen, we don't want to upset our kids. But why shouldn't she get upset? How can we parent our children without them being upset sometimes. Lidia 19:50 I just think although like I'm a really strong hard, like really resilient woman. I've like, got a really soft heart. And I just I don't know, I just don't like Seeing her upset, you know, maybe in a little way I look at her and I think back to how I used to.. Tanya 20:04 So that's it. You've nailed it. I mean, it's called projective identification. It's when the response we get from our children, it just kind of hits something within us. And then all those feelings from a time before in our own lives come back. So we're kind of, what am I doing? Am I responding to the pain that I'm feeling for my child? Or am I responding to my own pain? The problem there is, you are a resilient woman, but your daughter lacks resilience. Lidia 20:33 Yeah, no, that's honestly that makes that makes a lot of sense. Tanya 20:37 I'm not criticising you. I want to say again, and I know Claude said this at the outset. She is so lucky to have you. But I think your own childhood, your dad's, your mother, then multiple partners.. over attachment, that's confusing for you. You have your beautiful daughter, you literally I can see you take a bullet for her in a heartbeat. She then has a neurodevelopmental condition. [It] makes you very protective of her, makes you very anxious. And as I sit and think about all that, I see that you have been so protective of Chanel, to some degree, the anxiety that she would feel anyway, alongside her ADHD is even greater because it's triggered yours and it's made you kind of close down around her. And that has made life a bit more challenging for her in terms of her own relationships. And getting on as she should be as a 15 year old. You look a little bit shell shocked. Lidia 21:42 No, no, I'm just thinking. I'm thinking about everything that you said. It's actually so true. Tanya 21:47 And also let's just think about, so you go out on a date. What's the worst case scenario if you were to do that? Lidia 21:56 I mean, she has just like I said, She's improved loads. I mean, you know, worst case would probably be yeah she'll call me and maybe cry [and i'll say] "Ahh come home". Tanya 22:04 And when she's calling you like why do you pick up? Lidia 22:04 Do you know what she does the Find My iPhone if I don't pick up because she goes into this panic where doesn't know where I am or she can't get hold of me so she goes into full panic mode. Tanya 22:04 If your kid panics, has a massive tantrum, goes on to find your iPhone.. and? Everything will still be alright, tomorrow she'll be grumpy with you. But you know, life goes on. I'm just trying to imagine how her partner, her future partner is going to cope with a possessive anxious over controlling part of her if that is what she is learning in a close relationship. Lidia 22:44 Yeah, I'm just thinking well.. It's just like, would should be like that. I don't know if it's just because it's me, you know, I don't know just because it's me. Tanya 22:52 You are her primary attachment. So the primary attachment relationship is going to set a blueprint to some degree, isn't it? In terms of how we have relationships moving on, and it feels like the attachment is anxious on both sides. You said earlier and it was really interesting when you said "but it's really only just with me". There's something about your mother daughter relationship that is very regressed. It's like she becomes a five year old again. And it's something about how you can push that relationship into much more of a mother teenage daughter. Lidia 23:30 Strategy starts right now (Laughs). Tanya 23:33 Sit with how that makes you feel. I'm trying to understand how that makes you feel. In terms of, you're avoiding pushing her. Really pushing her. Lidia 23:45 I mean, it makes me obviously feel sad. It makes me feel scared. Tanya 23:48 What are you scared of? Lidia 23:51 Like, I guess the unknown is like how it's gonna, you know how it's gonna affect me, how I'm gonna feel.. Tanya 23:59 Tell me about the tears that are coming. Lidia 24:03 I don't know, I feel just really.. Tanya 24:04 Talk to me, Tell me. Because if we can understand this, I think you can free yourself up to be able to mother her in the way that you are so more than capable of doing. But I feel like you're frozen you're afraid to enable her to move on. Tell me about the tears. Lidia 24:21 I don't actually know. It's like so weird. I'm just getting really emotional. Tanya 24:24 It's not weird darling. It's normal. You're talking about the greatest love of your life. Lidia 24:27 Yeah. I don't know. Maybe the loss. Maybe I'm thinking I'm gonna lose her. Maybe. I don't know. Probably. Tanya 24:41 It's alright darling. Lidia 24:46 I mean, there's one thing that I haven't actually.. sorry. Tanya 24:50 It's alright. Just cry. Darling, It's fine. There's one thing you haven't told me? Lidia 24:59 Yeah so I just wanna.. because maybe it will bring maybe a little bit more perspective to why I may be am going to feel this way of loss and it makes a lot of sense because, like I lost my parents, lost my obviously my partner, you know. And then also I had another child when I was 16. Tanya 25:21 Right. Lidia 25:22 And I gave it up for adoption. Tanya 25:24 Oh, wow. Lidia 25:24 Yeah so.. Tanya 25:26 Tell me about this daughter. What's her name? Lidia 25:27 Jen. Yeah. So she's actually in the UK at the moment. So it was an open adoption. I fell pregnant when I was 16. And then yeah, I gave her up for adoption and it was open so I kept in contact through all the years with her adoptive parents. And she later on, found me on Facebook. And in 2012, my biological daughter, Jen contacted me and asked, you know if we wanted to meet. So I met her and she invited us to her wedding. Tanya 25:31 How old was she then? Lidia 25:39 19 or 20. So I went to her wedding and like I read a poem at her wedding. Tanya 26:10 My gosh, that's amazing. Lidia 26:11 And she's now pregnant. So I'm going to be a grandmother. Tanya 26:14 Wow. Lidia 26:15 A biological grandmother. Tanya 26:16 Wow. Lidia 26:17 Yeah, so that's like the nice part of it, but obviously having to go through that and giving her up for adoption. I think it was also like something that I you know, a form of loss.. Tanya 26:26 Huge form of loss Lidia 26:27 Like obviously talking to you. You realise, okay. Tanya 26:32 It's really making you cry. You have had a lot of loss. And I'm trying to imagine how would it felt when you gave birth to Jen, presumably, you held her and then you had to give her over? Lidia 26:42 Yeah. So I wasn't actually allowed to hold her. That was the rules. Tanya 26:46 You were not allowed to hold her? Lidia 26:47 No. You're not allowed to hold them when you give them up for adoption. So you basically give birth and they take them away. Tanya 26:53 What did that feel like? Lidia 26:54 The nurse sneakily brought her to me and let me hold her. Tanya 26:59 Oh wow. Lidia 27:00 So I held her. Tanya 27:01 And what was that like? Lidia 27:03 Yeah, I mean, it was you know.. it was it was amazing but I knew that she wasn't gonna be mine. So you know and I went to say goodbye to her like she was in the incubator and I had to go and say goodbye to her. Tanya 27:16 That's a huge loss. It is.. Lidia 27:18 And then obviously, I've got Chanel. So I am very.. obviously protective over her because of that. Tanya 27:24 Absolutely. You're smart you get it but also then when your friend lost her baby to a cot death I mean Gosh, I mean, it's just like.. No wonder it's spun you into anxiety 101. I mean you literally.. we can understand now it just completely ripped open all of that.. Lidia 27:45 And I used to, I couldn't sleep like I used to wake up at night. Checking if chanel's still breathing. Such a thing while you know maybe it did bring up more separation, you know, make the separation anxiety and.. Tanya 27:58 Sure you held on to her tight didn't you.. Lidia 28:00 Yeah because as fast as you know, the reality of seeing a.. I know it's very frank. A dead baby.. Tanya 28:05 But also the raw grief of that mother, your friend. Her grief must have been.. Lidia 28:10 Yeah it was horrendous. Tanya 28:13 Something you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. I mean losing a child just kind of, it sits outside anything that.. So thank you for telling me about Jen. I think that was incredibly insightful of you because it's interesting just before you told me about Jen I said to you it just feels like with you at this point in your mothering moment with your daughter. You're beautiful Chanel, you're very all or nothing. It's either I have her she's with me. And then it's she's gone. It's very black and white and I can understand why. You know, you're struggling to know how you can help her transition through this really important separation from you. With out it becoming nothing. Lidia 29:01 Yeah. Tanya 29:02 And of course, it won't be nothing because you and her have an incredible bond. But I would say to you, that her separation anxiety, and some of the social stuff that she might be struggling with is a really important communication to you as a mother, which is you need to help her make this next step, however painful it is for her and you in the process. But even as I say that to you, I can see the tears back because I think you know this. Lidia 29:32 Yeah. Tanya 29:32 But you are terrified. Lidia 29:37 Yeah I am. Because it's like, you know, are you going to do the right thing. Tanya 29:45 I have no doubt you will. I think the challenge is to think about her separation anxiety and your separation anxiety. I mean, it's one in the same thing. So in order to help her with hers, my question to you for you to think about in our break is how can I help you with yours? Okay? Lidia 30:04 Okay. Tanya 30:05 Is that alright ? Claudia 30:06 Right it's back to us. It's me Claude with Tan. We're just doing our half way sum up. What is ADHD? Tanya 30:30 So ADHD is a neuro developmental difference. Sort of.. people with ADHD, are neuro a-typical, so it's kind of like you're wired a bit differently. It affects about 5% of children, about 3% of adults in the UK. And it's about how your brain is wired in terms of neuro transmission. So it's how impulses are managed through different neural pathways. It's to do with the chemicals that are involved. It's in terms of how we think and feel and process information. Claudia 31:04 So you are born with this. Tanya 31:06 Yeah, well it's the most highly inheritable neurodevelopmental condition. Yeah. Claudia 31:10 So for somebody who has ADHD, how do they process things differently? Tanya 31:15 The chemicals that are involved in motivation, emotional responses, impulse control, and things like that. So children with ADHD or ADD so the H is hyperactivity, some children aren't hyperactive and kind of running around the environment and can't sit still. But they will still have a similar set of issues in terms of brain function. So these children struggle to sit still; motivation, concentration, focus, those sorts of things become really difficult. Executive function is a real issue. So that's how your brain coordinates all the different abilities that you have. It's a bit like the conductor in an orchestra. It's a bit like you've got an orchestra with lots of great instruments in it. So you're bright, you know, the orchestra is capable of playing an amazing Symphony. But it's the conductor that keeps popping in and out of the room. So these children often struggle not just with focus and concentration, but then getting stuff out of their brain onto the page is really difficult because they need working memory, they need to be able to organise their thoughts. They need to be able to land their thoughts. And that can become really, really challenging. And it's to do with how this part of the brain these pathways are working effectively. If you think about it.. I'll give you another way of Thinking about it, Claude. If you think about the first car you bought (an old banger). Claudia 32:36 Yeah, yeah. Tanya 32:37 Right. So you drive up to pick up some girlfriends, you're going out whatever. If you're sitting outside and the car is still on, but it's idling. The engines not going to just keep idling. You're going to have to keep putting your foot on the accelerator. It's an old banger and the car will konk out unless you keep injecting petrol through the engine by using the accelerator. So with kids with ADHD, it's a bit like (and adults), i t's a bit like that. It's a bit like, if my internal stimulation system isn't working efficiently, if my motor isn't just running efficiently, I will get distracted. I will have to look at other things. If things don't interest me, I won't concentrate on them. Other things. I'll Daydream, I'll suddenly look out the window, I'll chat to my friend at the back of the classroom, because I've got to keep banging stimulation through my brain to keep the engine running. Claudia 33:24 And we're doing children a disservice if we're under diagnosing them, because at school, I imagine then they fall behind. Tanya 33:29 Fall behind massively. And also the education system isn't designed for children who learn in this kind of way. So you imagine being this child in a classroom where there are many, many distractions, and there are many, many things going on and you're in a subject that you really don't care about. You're just going to be drifting off and kind of just losing focus. You know, some kids get themselves noticed because they will start to act out and be disruptive. Others just underperform. So we've got huge numbers of children and young people who are so bright, have so much in capacity, intelligence, lots of creativity. People with ADHD can think outside the box because you know, their brain will go in all over the place. They're often very funny, because they can just make all these connections, and it's just kind of dampened down and the children just start to think that they're not very smart. Claudia 34:21 If people listening to this.. it was so fascinating that Lidia was mentioning tantrums and all kinds of things. If people are thinking maybe my child has it. Are there flags, are there signposts for parents that they can go, oh, maybe this is what's going on? Tanya 34:34 The other bit of it is also the behavioural bit and the emotional bit so, lots of emotionality. You know, it's very difficult for these children to emotionally regulate, quite high levels of anxiety, but the anxiety can also be linked to just getting lots of negative feedback (could try harder, could do better). You know, you get these kids down one to one, they're fine. What also confuses people is these kids show something called hyper focus. So they there are some things where they will be so hyper focused. So lots of parents will come to me and go, "God can't do 10 minutes of homework; can do eight hours of video gaming". But you know, when you look at that, so for example, the gaming scenario with these kids, gaming is instant reward, dopamine hits to your brain, you know, you're playing, you're focusing on something, you're good at it, that is giving your system what it's lacking, like, you know, it's just kind of banging it in. Claudia 35:26 Going back to the old banger again. It suddenly makes sense. Tanya 35:29 You're pressing the accelerator and it's all kind of flowing through. So the medication would be either stimulant medication, which is targeting dopamine, or non stimulant medication, which is targeting norepinephrine. So these are the two neuro chemicals. So it's not like we're narcotizing children. It's like, we're giving children what their brain isn't functioning well enough with. And you see, it's transformational for these kids. It's transformational. Claudia 36:00 That bit was incredibly moving when the tears came because you turned to her and said, I think actually, you're here so that I can help you let her go. And she couldn't stop crying. Tanya 36:13 It's also interesting, I suppose when we think about her story with Jen. Because erm, how old was she when.. Claudia 36:21 16. She was 16 when she had Jen, which is just a year older than Chanel is now. Tanya 36:27 So that's interesting, isn't it? So yeah, that was a major transitional point in her life. It must have been painful. Did your heart break when she said about the nurse sneaking her baby in ? Claudia 36:40 And then you said what was that like holding her? And she said, well, I knew I couldn't keep her. Tanya 36:44 So now, she's got one she can keep. So the thought of having to enable her to leave her, because our job as parents is to enable our children to leave us right. Claudia 36:56 Don't say that. Tanya 36:56 I know Claude. I know you don't like it. But if I say it enough. Hopefully I'll help you get your head around it eventually. But Gosh, when she.. that story with the nurse. I just, you know I've been doing this job for years. And I obviously I care and I really feel it but there are sometimes people say things and you... And that just, I don't know, I could feel the tears in my eyes. I just thought.. Claudia 37:20 I mean, I'm in a totally separate room, obviously. And we were dumbstruck by that because she talked to you for a while, she talked about loss, and then just at the last minute, she just threw a bomb in and you go, well, no wonder.. I also wouldn't let my 15 year old go anywhere, anywhere. Yeah I know. Okay Thanks Tan. Let's go back to the session. Lidia 38:00 You really hit like the nail.. I didn't expect it to go down like the route of actually really finding out what I sort of need to deal with, which is quite like mind blowing. Tanya 38:12 Okay, so I've blown your mind.. Lidia 38:14 Yeah. I'm sure you've blown a lot of people's minds but yeah.. Tanya 38:18 I hope in a helpful way and I think what we need to do is just think right, well, where do we take it? Lidia 38:23 Yeah, so I obviously want to help her through.. from now become that resilient, independent young woman that she needs to be. Tanya 38:33 When you came you gave your phone to Selina who's our lovely producer. And you know, Chanel has been messaging you while we were talking. Claudia 38:42 Yeah. I saw the message. Tanya 38:44 Just lovely sort of 'Okay mum?' with hearts and that sort of stuff. But it's just interesting, isn't it that maybe she also recognises your separation anxiety. She's checking in on you. Lidia 38:56 Yeah. Tanya 38:58 So sometimes kids struggle to leave us because they're worried to leave us. She might struggle a little bit because she's used to having you on her own. But she'll get over it. But the point is, she needs to be able to leave you. And the best way for her to leave you is to know that you have a life and relationships and emotional input from people other than her. Otherwise, she'll always be 'you okay mum?'. Lidia 39:20 Yeah, I mean, I don't know what the socialising scene is [like] out there. I haven't been to like a pub and, you know, like adult, just adulting. Like properly for ages. Tanya 39:33 She needs to know that you're doing that. Then she can engage much more with her life away from you. Because she isn't going to be worried that you're sat alone at home on the sofa watching movies. It's as much her response to your separation anxiety as your response to hers. What can you take from our meeting to help you really enable your daughter to move into becoming an independent adult. Lidia 40:02 I need to put, obviously block boundaries in place. Tanya 40:05 Yeah, you really do. She's not gonna like it to begin with. Lidia 40:09 I need to approach it differently. You know? Because when you talk to teenagers, 'ah were going to have the talk now.. And they're like already squirming and things. Tanya 40:17 The car was always a good place. Car journeys. No one's looking at each other. We're all looking out the window. Lidia 40:23 How do I have the talk with her? How do I.. Tanya 40:25 What is the talk? Tell me what the talk is? What do you want to say? Lidia 40:27 So, you know, in order for her to become the independent young woman, you know, that wants to travel the world and go to Australia and live her life, obviously, you know, I'm still living my life is.. is to be able to put things in place where we do spend more time apart. Whether that's, you know, her going more to her friend. Whether me that's arranging because I've got a very good friend, also single mom and we just want to go out like we want to go to the speed dating. I don't know if you've heard of it. Tanya 41:00 Yeah, yeah. The thing with the bell and the three minutes and the.. It's something that I've always wanted to do. So why aren't you doing it? Lidia 41:07 You know, it's not a priority, but I think I need to shift my priorities. Tanya 41:10 Yes. Because look, I do agree conversation is really important. My feedback to you is be careful that you're not having this conversation to get her to give you permission. I think if you're going to say it, you need to say it. She might say, you know, 'up yours mom, that ain't happening. whatevs'. And slam her door and in your head, you have to think whatevs back because it is and it has to. Right? But I'd also say show, don't tell. Go speed dating. Lidia 41:40 Just do it. Tanya 41:41 Just do it. And you know, if she's home with the lady that comes and sits with her when you're out and she's safe and fine. Switch your phone off. God you looked a bit scared when I said that. You literally like I just said, 'push her off the cliff'. You just looked at me like I had lost my mind! Lidia 42:01 I don't know if I'm ready to literally put my phone off. I won't answer.. Tanya 42:04 Put it on silent or what you can do some people who I work with in these kinds of contexts, they.. three hours or four hours that they're away from the kid that calls and calls, and calls and calls and calls. They block their number, but they leave their phone on and if anybody who's with their kid wants to call and say hey, this has happened that has happened. So you don't feel like you're just kind of cutting off all contacts. Yeah, but you're like, okay, I love you. But I literally don't want to hear from you in the next.. I mean how can you speed date, look at a guy and think, mm, how do I feel about us taking each others clothes off? If you're also looking at your phone and she's going Mom, Mom, I miss you. I miss you. I mean, this is just like not going to happen is it? Lidia 42:42 It's not. No it's not. Tanya 42:45 I mean. It's almost like you think she could be sort of in huge life threatening danger at any moment in her life. So you have to be constantly on call. Lidia 42:56 I'm like living in that, in that past where she threw a major like having a panic and she's like in tears. And I'm like, I just don't want to relive that again. Again, it's just coming back to that, that feeling. Tanya 43:08 Okay but if she did have a panic, and she was in tears. And then she calmed down, and she came home and she was furious with you. And she got angry and you said don't talk to me like that. You know, if you're going to talk to me like that, I'm going to go out and you calm down and whatever and then you set some boundaries. What would be so detrimentally tragic about that experience for her? Lidia 43:35 Nothing actually if you think about. Nothing, she'd just actually learn. Tanya 43:38 Hundred percent. Lidia 43:41 Honestly, like I, I'm well up for it, too. Because I know I need to do it. Like you said, you know if I.. and I want to. Tanya 43:49 You seem empowered by our conversation. Lidia 43:50 Yeah, it has been hugely helpful. I think I needed like almost the confirmation. Tanya 43:58 I think you just needed me to give you permission. My summary to you would be for your daughter to be a fully functioning sort of resilient, emotionally kind of intelligent young woman. Her mother needs to be as well. And you are. But you do not have any independence really, apart from the stuff you do when you're not around your daughter. So for her to understand that the relationship between you and her is going to be fantastic, even if you're not so much in each other's pockets, and you have another partner and she gets the boyfriend eventually does whatever. For her to understand that. You be her role model. You do it first. I don't mean just, I'm not saying just get a boyfriend. But what I'm saying is for her to separate from you, you've got to show her how it's done. And if she doesn't like it, that's okay. Because it's a change and she's so used being so meshed with you but, you're never gonna leave her, you're always gonna love her. But don't need her validation. Don't look for that, because that's not gonna happen at the moment. Just know in your gut, that this is an issue that has to be dealt with now, with a combination of conversations, support, nurture, tough love and boundaries. And just know that this is an important bit of parenting that you are going to get right. But it might be a bit tricky along the way. Lidia 45:38 Yeah. 100%. Thank you. Yeah, it's really amazing. Claudia 45:47 It felt momentous to me just listening. And I don't know if that's strange. Only because when you came in, your question was going that way, and it seems that something else happened. Lidia 46:00 I know. How crazy is that? Claudia 46:01 How do you feel? Do you feel excited about it, or quite nervous? Lidia 46:02 I feel empowered. I feel really emotional. I feel relieved and I do feel very enlightened and it totally turned out to be what I actually exactly needed to hear. I do. Now I feel excited. Claudia 46:19 So this is what I'm gonna ask you to do. But it's quite dramatic. Lidia 46:22 Okay. Claudia 46:23 The thing you're wearing on your wrist. What is that ? Lidia 46:27 Oh, it's my it's my Fitbit. It's like my watch but.. Claudia 46:31 And messages come in through that? Lidia 46:32 Yeah. Claudia 46:33 Right? You see, what are we going to do about that? Lidia 46:37 It is a little bit tricky, because I'm thinking what if what if the school does need to get hold of me? They can give a message.. Claudia 46:42 Then they'll get hold of you! Lidia 46:44 Yeah, they will. Claudia 46:45 But you can say to her in a totally relaxed way. I love you. I'm doing a tiny bit of work on this place. There's hardly any Wi Fi. Lidia 46:51 I'll do that and say there's hardly any Wi Fi.. Claudia 46:54 No you don't have to have a big conversation about seperation or a big, i don't know, I have a 16 year old. I want to sit down with him and talk to him about why he won't read a book, or whatever it is. It becomes a hoo ha. If I just get on with it.. If I go, 'oh, I've done this because I'm evil'. I've done the telly doesn't work. And I literally put the remote control in the freezer. Can I just suggest anybody listening, don't do that. Because it really does break. Oh, and then they go, all right. Well, maybe I'll pick up a book then. Maybe this is too much information. Somebody told me to swim once because it would be good for my head. Because there's no tech, because it's just you. You're talking about doing something just for you. And you can't wear that in the water. You're buzzing wrist which sends messages all the time. Lidia 47:39 Yeah that's a good idea. Swimming. I do, I train. So I gym.. it monitors my heart rate so.. Claudia 47:43 But you're wearing it. No no. I need you submerged. Lidia 47:46 Yeah, underwater. Good idea. Claudia 47:48 Promise? Promise. And by the way, you are a brilliant human being. It's the most understandable thing in the world. And she's lucky to have you. You're lucky to have her. You are a team, whatever. Even if you've got four boy friends! Can I suggest one to begin with, and even if she's going off going 'Mum, we're all going to Edinburgh for the weekend. Don't panic, she'll be fine. She comes back on Sunday. I speak to my mum every day. And I'm 47 so they don't leave you. Lidia 48:15 Yeah, they stick. It's just getting through. It's like we're here now. And there's a journey, and it's like going to be a little bit of a mountain to get to.. Claudia 48:25 But you can do it. Lidia 48:25 Yeah. Hundred percent. Claudia 48:27 Thank you for coming in. Lidia 48:28 Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And thank you for having me. Claudia 48:32 And just take it off. Half an hour. Just half an hour. And every day more. What I loved is as we were cuddling her and as she was leaving, and I'd been a bit bossy about her phone strap that she wears. Tanya 48:51 Umbilical cord. It's like you cut a bit of the umbilical cord there. Now, I thought that was really brilliant. That's what I love about you, Claude, you know, you just kind of succinctly say 'okay, here's something that represents what we've been talking about. How about you try this?'. I thought that was a brilliant intervention. Claudia 49:05 And I could just see it on her wrist. But anyway.. and she did take it off. And then she went and grabbed her phone that our lovely producer had been looking after and it said two missed calls, and we both looked at her and she went, "I'm not calling straight back". I hope that she will make changes. But it'll be hard. Tanya 49:23 It's clear that Lidia has put so much of her own life on hold. And she needs to be brave and kind of step out a bit more for herself as an independent adult. I think often we show rather than tell, and that's the most effective way of helping our children understand things. Claudia 49:39 Okay, shall we go and have a lie down? Lidia 49:41 Oh, just Yes. Claudia 49:43 I quite fancy a bit of speed dating though. Don't You? I'm joking! Come on.. And if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email parenting@somethinelse.com. That's parenting at somethin' (without a G), else.com. Next time we meet Natasha. Tanya 50:17 Why am I concerned for you enough to raise it? Natasha 50:22 Maybe just because eventually it's going to come to the surface. Tanya 50:26 But it does come to the surface. You have flashbacks. Natasha 50:29 Yeah. Tanya 50:30 And my sense is when those flashbacks hit you, they literally take your breath away. Claudia 50:37 This podcast was possible with the help of the following people at somethin' else. The sound engineer is Gulliver Tickle. You're right. It's an excellent name. The mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the assistant producer is Hannah Tolbert, the producer is Selina Ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Transcribed by https://otter.ai