Claudia 0:07 For those who have been listening throughout the series, this is the incredibly powerful episode, where the series got its name. Please note, there was some very emotional and distressing scenes within this podcast that may not be suitable for everyone. Natasha 0:25 It was like, every second, I was not in control. And that in itself was just, it was horrible. How did we get here? We were just home yesterday. Claudia 0:40 Hello, and welcome to How did we get here the podcast where me Claudia Winkleman, and Professor Tanya Byron, clinical psychologist and also a great friend of mine, chat to people who are facing struggles with their families. Tanya talks to people in face to face sessions while I'm in another room, listening to the conversation. In the break, I ask questions and explore Tan's process too. This time we meet Natasha, who has a severely disabled daughter, Elias, aged two, who has an undiagnosed condition. Natasha is 30 and has a partner and is a filmmaker. At six weeks Elias started develop problems and six months was taken to Great Ormond Street Hospital. Natasha wanted to spread awareness about her daughter. However, Tanya realises that Natasha was still in shock over the discovery of her daughter's illness, and so looks at ways of addressing her PTSD. Tanya 1:31 Why am I concerned for you, enough to raise it? Natasha 1:35 Maybe just because eventually it's going to come to the surface. Tanya 1:39 But it does come to the surface. You have flashbacks. Natasha 1:41 Yeah. Tanya 1:44 And my sense is when those flashbacks hit you, they literally take your breath away. Claudia 1:50 What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one time unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on useful links and contacts, which you will also be able to find in the programme notes of this episode. Let's go meet Natasha. Claudia 2:12 Well, number one, thank you so much for coming in and sharing your story with us. You're gonna chat to me, a bit. I know very little about you, so I'm sorry that I'll be annoying and ask questions. Natasha 2:22 It's fine. Claudia 2:23 And then you'll be with Professor Tanya Byron. What are you hoping to get out of today? Natasha 2:29 You know what, I think it's about raising awareness of my unique situation. Because she's sick. I don't know how much you guys know, tell me everything. So my daughter she, she's now suddenly had like a, a decline in her health. So she was lets normal and then certain amount of months. She got really sick and they don't know what's wrong with her. So she's not disabled. I'm so sorry. Yeah, it's hard. It's like how you go from having a child that's normal, and everyone's like, excited for you and then you go through this transitional period where she's sick. She's completely not the same person. She can't eat. She can't talk. She doesn't cry. She's completely different. Claudia 3:07 So when you leave today how do you want to feel? If that's not too weird a question. Natasha 3:11 I was at a stage where I didn't want to talk about it. But now I feel like I am and I want to share it and get it out. Claudia 3:17 Who looks after you? Natasha 3:19 To be honest, I don't really talk to anyone. I mean, her dad, my boyfriend is somebody who doesn't talk. I'll cry. If I feel to cry. I'll cry. And then we move on. Claudia 3:28 And is he supportive to you? Natasha 3:30 Yes. Yeah, he really is. We've been challenged a lot in the 18 months. How long were you together before? So before that we was together eight months. Wow. Claudia 3:40 Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming in. Natasha 3:43 No, it's fine. Absolutely fine. Claudia 3:44 And, I'm going to send Tanya in Okay. Tanya 3:52 Hello, I'm Tanya. So you've met Claud. Claudia, and I really think fascinated by people's stories, and, you've got a story. Yeah, you've got a story. Tanya 4:06 So I suppose your story is something about, life moving in a, in a way that felt exciting and happy. And then suddenly out of nowhere, an event happens that completely changes everything. Natasha 4:20 Yeah. Tanya 4:21 How was the pregnancy? Natasha 4:22 My pregnancy was fine. I would say that's the healthiest I've been. And what then came next? It got to about I think, six weeks and they ask you if she smiled. And I was just like, 'well no she hasn't', you know? And then I think she smiled at like, eight weeks. So I'm like, 'oh, okay nothing to worry', about going with the premise that every child is different. We just carried on carried on. And then it got to three months. That Saturday, which was actually my birthday. She spent the whole day sleeping. And then the next morning she woke up and, her neck was fixed to the left. Tanya 4:59 So she couldn't move her head? Natasha 5:00 She, she could we could move it back. But she would want to move it back to the left. And it was really strange. So my aunt was like, 'call the health visitor'. It was a weekend so they weren't by their phones or anything. And I was like, no, maybe she slept funny. You're always trying to, you know. Natasha 5:00 De-catastrophise it. Don't want to panic, don't want to be a neurotic mom sort of thing. Natasha 5:20 Yeah. And plus, she had a rash. So a couple of weeks before and I went to the doctors, and they kind of made me feel as though I was overreacting. So this time, I didn't want to go there. It didn't make me go to the hospital with urgency at that point. Tanya 5:35 Okay, and now, do you regret that? Natasha 5:37 Yes. If I just was quick, would, would something have changed. I'm not sure. Tanya 5:43 That's a really sad what you've just said. Yeah. So already you're telling me that there's a part of you that wonders whether you let your daughter down. Natasha 5:52 I feel like that every day. I go over the events in my head all the time. I torture myself. Tanya 6:00 But how do you think you let her down? And what is this daily mental torture you're putting yourself through? Natasha 6:05 Every day is a battle of clinics and hospitals. And it's unbelievable how many people we see to try and make our life one of quality, let's say. Tanya 6:17 So you have a child who's profoundly disabled. Natasha 6:20 Yep. Tanya 6:21 But no one's given you an answer. Natasha 6:22 No. Tanya 6:23 How do you manage in? Natasha 6:25 You're trying to just find answers, just so you have closure, and it's mentally exhausting. Tanya 6:31 How exhausted are you? Natasha 6:33 months ago, I wasn't in a great place mentally. I would isolate myself in my house, which, was just not great. Tanya 6:41 This self isolation. I mean it sounds like you were struggling with feelings of depression, which is not surprising. I mean, the shock, the trauma of just expecting a child in a certain way and then suddenly recognising, what your daughter struggles were, and were likely to be for her life and for your life. Do you think you were depressed? Natasha 7:06 I think I was. Tanya 7:07 Was there a sense that you didn't want to be around people? Natasha 7:10 It was the questions. I wasn't... Tanya 7:13 Yeah. That's what I'm wondering Natasha 7:15 ...Prepared for the questions that people were going to ask. They'll be like, 'so what's wrong with her?' and I'll be like, 'they don't know'. And then they would get really passionate about what you mean. They don't know. Tanya 7:23 It feels very insensitive the way people were treating you. Natasha 7:26 Family members like literally distance themselves, and that was hurtful. Wouldn't that be a time to kind of embrace the person more? They kind of made me feel more isolated than anything like, because they couldn't deal with it? They just Yeah, they left. But it's not like it's our fault, but it's just the guilt, this kind of like, this isn't the story that I wanted for us? Tanya 7:31 What are you guilty of? Natasha 7:53 I've started an Instagram page in her name and I posted from zero all the way up until to today, and there are things now I notice. And I'm like, 'why don't I know that at the time?' She was really stiff, and like, that isn't a normal movement. Tanya 8:10 You're a first time mum. Natasha 8:11 Yeah. Tanya 8:12 How were you supposed to know? Natasha 8:13 I know. And that's the thing. That's what everybody says. And I know in myself that I would never have known. Tanya 8:20 I want to go back to this daily torture, because maybe that's something I can help you with. Because you said, I torture myself. Natasha 8:28 Yeah. Tanya 8:29 Tell me a little bit about that. Natasha 8:31 I'm just like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, this is so hard, everyday is a struggle. And I'm like, 'Am I strong enough for this?' And then there's days where I'm like, yeah, of course, you are Tanya 8:40 What of the darkest places your mind will go when you start to wonder whether you can do this? Natasha 8:45 It's thinking of the future. That is incredibly scary. And I've decided that, that isn't good for my mindset, that I'll just take one day at a time. Tanya 8:54 I mean, psychologically, you're robust, aren't you? You're strong. Natasha 8:57 Now. I wouldn't say that when this first happened. Tanya 9:00 And and you feel anxious a lot of the time. Natasha 9:02 Yeah, I feel anxious all the time. Because you have to think five steps ahead. Tanya 9:06 But you're, you're putting a brave face on, but I can see as we talk, you stop yourself getting sad. Natasha 9:13 Yeah, I feel like I have to do that. Tanya 9:15 Why? Why do you have to do that? Natasha 9:17 If you don't, you kind of have to get this strength from somewhere. Because if you are not mentally, in the right place, you are not going to be able to look off this child to a level that she needs. Tanya 9:28 Because I'm watching us we're talking and I can I can see you're getting a bit tearful, and then it goes, you're not allowing yourself to engage with how you feel. I wonder whether that's going to be sustainable. Natasha 9:41 If I think about it too much. I could cry all day, but that isn't going to really benefit my daughter at this point. Tanya 9:51 I agree. A lot of parents I work with in a similar position to you have very strong feelings of grief, because actually you have your child, but it's not what you were expecting. So there's a bereavement process for the child that you expected and the mother, you thought you would be able to be. A lot of parents won't let themselves articulate that because they feel guilty. If I say that then it means I don't love my child for who she is. But that has to be acknowledged. Natasha 10:23 Yeah, that was a great way of putting Actually, it's just so tough to deal with because it just seems too huge. Tanya 10:31 What frightens you the most? Natasha 10:33 When we got to a Great Ormond Street, and then when they couldn't find out what it was, it was like, the situation is pretty dire at this point, like 'Okay, so what now?' And do you ever get flashbacks to that time? I do. Tanya 10:45 And what do you flashback to sweetheart? Natasha 10:47 I remember seeing her, in a bed, seeing her with all the wires and just thinking how did we get here? On my worst days, I go back to the worst, the worst State I saw her in hospital. And it just kills me. Tanya 11:03 Are you seeing it now? Natasha 11:04 Yeah, it's just not great. Tanya 11:06 You've not had any support to process that image. Have you? Natasha 11:09 Not that image? I don't really talk about that... Tanya 11:11 No. Natasha 11:12 ...image Tanya 11:13 You avoid it. Natasha 11:14 Absolutely. Tanya 11:14 My concern is that you might be, struggling with some post traumatic stress. Because what I just saw was, you shift very significantly from the way you can talk about what you're dealing with. You can talk about the emotion of it, but you can still keep it at a very sort of rational cognitive level. You're still there, aren't you? Natasha 11:40 Well, yeah, cuz now I just thought about the image. Tanya 11:42 I think you need help to get past it. So there's a part of our brain that responds to threat that gets hyper activated when we're traumatised. It's a, it's a part of our brain called the amygdala. And it sits in the emotional sort of limbic area of our brain the fight or flight response, right? So if we're threatened, our body has to do either has to run flight, or we have to fight, or we freeze. When you're in a threatening situation, where you honestly believe that there is going to be death or significant harm to you or someone you love. That can create a memory that almost gets stuck. So whenever that memory is triggered, you start to get all those emotions again, as if you're back there, and I just watched you, you. You went back there, didn't you? Natasha 12:35 Yeah, it's honestly it's crazy. Tanya 12:39 How often you have to push that image out of your head. Natasha 12:42 Umm, pretty regular. Claudia 12:57 Hold on, can I just stop tape? You've uncovered this trauma, but not only that, she revealed to you where it started. So I just want to ask you, you mentioned the word trauma, and thenyou got talking about amygdala. Can you explain that in like, my, ie layman's terms? Tanya 13:17 First of all describing the brain, so you talk about the amygdala and you sort of talk about the fact that there is a part of the brain that can become, in effect blocked when we have a trauma. If the memory doesn't get processed, cognitively, through another part of the brain, through the frontal cortex, the part of the brain that thinks and understands and emotionally regulates. If it stays in the amygdala, it stays just as trauma. So the amygdala gets triggered, you have a flashback, you push it away, it stays blocked. Claudia 13:45 Is that PTSD? Tanya 13:46 That's PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder, Claudia 13:49 And you mentioned it and I could really hear it that her breathing changed. Tanya 13:54 When we're looking at PTSD when we're looking at trauma. If I can help her understand that by looking at that, and I can teach her a few very simple techniques, she will start to feel able to master the feelings that this triggers in her so that it ceases to become trauma, otherwise it'll get bigger and bigger. Claudia 14:13 That's one, I was fascinated by the guilt. That she feels that somehow she missed something which of course, she didn't. I want her to somehow go, 'this is what happened. I love her. She's Elias, she's my baby', and not feel bad about it. Tanya 14:30 Well, you know what that's like, it's a tough journey. Right? And she does. She needs help with the trauma. But I think if she doesn't feel there's a space that she can do that. This is just going to become really, really, really, really overwhelming for her. Claudia 14:45 All right, let's see where the conversation goes, now. back to the interview. Tanya 14:56 I just watched you get triggered, the more you will Avoid thinking about it, the harder it's going to hit you. And at some stage, my concern is it's going to hit you so hard, that, all your strength and your resilience and your determination will then start to be undermined. Natasha 15:14 Right, make sense. Tanya 15:18 And that makes you normal. For the most part, your coping strategies are incredible. I have significant admiration for you. But what you described to me earlier, I saw you change physically, I saw you look away, your voice changed, your breathing changed, you looked sad, and then I saw you pull yourself out of it. That to me, isn't just understandable distress at a really difficult memory. That to me is trauma. Natasha 15:48 Okay. Tanya 15:49 And that's what I want to help you think about. Natasha 15:51 Okay. Tanya 15:52 What that means is, you have to face the memory. Natasha 15:56 You know, I just said that I started an Instagram and her name to bring awareness. And when it got to the part where she went to the hospital, it was kind of like I regretted starting the page. Tanya 16:06 Have you got the pictures on you now? Natasha 16:07 I do. I do. I'd love to show you. Tanya 16:10 Please show me. Natasha 16:11 Yeah? Tanya 16:12 Have you got your phone there. Natasha 16:12 Yeah I do. Tanya 16:13 Okay, lets have a look. I just want to help you understand what I'm saying. Can you hear how your breathing is changing? Natasha 16:21 Yeah, because I'm trying to stop myself from getting upset. Tanya 16:25 Why? What's wrong with getting upset? Natasha 16:28 There's nothing wrong with it, but it's just not pleasant. Tanya 16:32 I absolutely agree. Natasha 16:34 You know? Tanya 16:34 So you're showing me a picture now on your phone. Natasha 16:36 Yeah. Tanya 16:37 And the next one. Natasha 16:38 Okay. And then that is the picture that just. Tanya 16:42 You can't look at it? Natasha 16:43 I hate it. I can't. Tanya 16:45 So I'm now looking at a picture of a tiny, beautiful little baby girl in a huge hospital bed. There's machines everywhere wires. Natasha 16:53 And they're about to put her in the ambulance. And I couldn't get an ambulance. Tanya 16:57 Y ou couldn't do it? Natasha 16:58 I couldn't. Tanya 16:59 because, you were not allowed or? Natasha 17:01 No I was allowed. I had been. First time we was an ambulance was when they noticed that it was wrong. So I had to go with her. This time its very high levels of stress it's like, its to anx- like it. Tanya 17:14 No. I understand that. Natasha 17:14 It was too much. So her dad went with her. Tanya 17:17 And you, you can't look at this picture no? Natasha 17:20 No, I don't want to look at that picture. Tanya 17:21 I see that darling, tell me why. Tell me what it is that, because you know what I'm seeing? Natasha 17:28 They struggled to put her to sleep as well. I think. Tanya 17:31 She was in an induced coma was she? Natasha 17:32 Yeah. Tanya 17:33 Yeah, okay. Natasha 17:34 For Two days. Tanya 17:35 Yeah. She actually looks very peaceful doesn't she. Natasha 17:39 To me, that situation normally happens just before you pass. Tanya 17:44 So this looks like a picture of your child who might almost be dead. Natasha 17:49 Basically. Tanya 17:49 This is why you can't look at it. Natasha 17:51 It's awful. Tanya 17:52 I understand my love. I do understand. I guess I'm seeing a child who is being well looked after. By caring professionals, she's not in pain. Natasha 18:05 It's not nice to look at. As soon as they woke her up, she was unable to do the things that she could do before she was induced into that coma, and the gilt is, why did I let them do that? Because they needed to do that to transport from one hospital to another. Did I fight hard enough? Probably not. Maybe I should have said, no, no. Tanya 18:26 Oh I see. Oh my gosh. So you're taking so much responsibility now. You're now saying something else to me. You're saying I let her down. Because you're thinking is perhaps the induced coma caused a significant deterioration. Natasha 18:42 I believe so. Tanya 18:43 And I wasn't a good enough mother. I should have screamed and shouted and held her myself on the way to the hospital, but I shouldn't have left her. Natasha 18:53 So much changed after this picture. Tanya 18:57 So this picture represents the moment when, she became a very different child. Natasha 19:04 Yeah. Tanya 19:05 If I think about my colleagues that I work with, I suspect that you know, she would have had to be put into induced coma because to get the tube down their throat is not possible if they're, you know, if they're conscious because they're so terrified and the fear that the terror will traumatise the child. I can understand why it was done. Well I'll tell you what, let, let's have a break now, because there's a lot we've talked about. For the second part of our conversation, I could actually do a bit of trauma work with you. And together we can look at the photo and I can help you learn how to master the feelings that come up from looking at it because when you have those flashbacks, I want to just help you leave our session today with a set of skills that you can use. Natasha 19:58 Okay. Tanya 19:58 Not push it away. Sit with it, but manage it, manage those feelings so that they stop being trauma and they just start being feelings. Natasha 20:07 Okay? Tanya 20:08 That's up to you. If you don't want to do that, that's fine. But should we take a break? Now you have a think then we can then we can come back. Natasha 20:16 Okay. Claudia 20:28 What was interesting in listening tp that she came in she was very strong. Together, I'm doing this for my daughter, thank you very much. I mean, if you remember when she came in here a while back and I said, Why are you here? She said, just to raise awareness. That's all I'm doing. I'm fine. And then of course, you got into trauma. Tanya 20:46 Absolutely. I mean, first of all, I mean, it touches an incredible young woman. Claudia 20:50 Incredible. Tanya 20:50 I mean, life has thrown a curveball in a way that wasn't expected and she's getting on with it and she's absolutely strong and she's there for her daughter and she doesn't know what's wrong with her daughter. She doesn't know her daughter's prognosis. I mean, we're both mothers Claude. You couldn't imagine... Claudia 21:08 I can't Tanya 21:08 ...a worst a worse scenario, right? I suppose what I have seen in Natasha and I see in many parents that I work with who have really significant trauma with their child. What you're left with is these horrible memories that you just have to push away. Claudia 21:26 I mean, we can say out loud that you helped me with flashbacks. I have flashbacks of my daughter had an accident when she was eight. And they come at you, and the only way I can describe it is like a bull. Like a tsunami. It's so enormous that you you think you're going to drown. So instead, you just have to shove it to one side. You said to her, you have been through trauma and you need to deal with that. Tanya 21:51 I mean, yeah, I need to help Natasha understand there. She's coping brilliantly brilliantly, but there is there's another aspect of coping that she needs to allow herself to do. And that's to address the trauma and to find a space where she can sometimes be truly vulnerable and not be afraid that that's going to lead her to break because it won't. Claudia 22:14 Taking her needs seriously, it almost feels like she thinks she's being disloyal to her daughter. Tanya 22:19 Hundred percent. Claudia 22:19 Which is, adorable, but you're not doing her a disservice by going... Tanya 22:22 yeah. Claudia 22:23 ...this is annoying. Tanya 22:24 Exactly. Claudia 22:24 I quite like to go to the pub. Tanya 22:26 And also you'll only be as good a parent to your children if you make sure you look after yourself. Claudia 22:30 Yeah. It just makes me feel like it's not fair. Tanya 22:35 Yeah. Claudia 22:35 And I don't know whether she feels that. Tanya 22:38 But it isn't fair. Claudia 22:39 It's not fair. Tanya 22:40 No. Claudia 22:41 Let's return to the session. Tanya 22:59 You alright? Natasha 23:01 I'd like to talk about the trauma side. Tanya 23:04 You would? Natasha 23:05 Yeah. Tanya 23:06 Okay. Well, let's do that then because it could be the first step and then we will work out how you continue it. But why am I concerned for you? Enough to raise it? Natasha 23:18 Maybe just because eventually it's going to come to the surface. Tanya 23:22 But it does come to the surface. You have flashbacks. Natasha 23:25 Yeah. Tanya 23:27 And my sense is when those flashbacks hit you, they literally take your breath away. Natasha 23:33 Yeah. Tanya 23:35 Did you know that physiologically, the way you respond to anxiety is your breathing? Suddenly? dis regulates your breathing changes? Natasha 23:45 No, I didn't. Tanya 23:46 Can you not hear it a little bit now. Natasha 23:48 Now I just feel like anxious. Tanya 23:51 And what you anxious about my love? Because here we are in this nice room. You're comfortable. Natasha 23:56 Yeah. Tanya 23:57 You trust me. So where does the anxiety come from? Natasha 24:00 Maybe just having to revisit the memories I don't really want to... Tanya 24:06 Because? Natasha 24:07 ... they might break me. Tanya 24:09 Okay, you will not break. No one breaks on my watch darling. You won't break. Tanya 24:30 What I want to do, today then is just explain to you trauma and explain to you how the work, works. We can do a little bit if you want, but I don't want to put you in a position that you feel you can't walk out of here feeling empowered. Trauma is a response to significant anxiety. You have explained to me that that photograph encapsulates the worst moment of your life. What were you anxious about in that moment? Natasha 25:05 It was like, every second, I was not in control. And that in itself was just, was horrible. How did we get here? We were just home yesterday, back and now we're being transported to another hospital. And knowing that this hospital was like, you know, we can't do anymore. That was just unbelievable. Tanya 25:29 Because suddenly you realise this is really, really serious. Natasha 25:31 Yeah. Tanya 25:33 And that is the picture that comes into your head when you flashback? Natasha 25:37 Yeah. Tanya 25:38 So that tells us that all those feelings, real feelings that any loving committed parent would feel in that moment, have never been properly addressed. You've just locked them down because you've rolled up your sleeves like you do every day for this lovely little girl of yours and you've got on with it. When we were looking at the picture earlier, well, actually I was looking at a picture you couldn't look you were at you were physically turning your head away. Natasha 26:06 Yeah. Tanya 26:08 And that's because your fear is if you look at it, a big wave, like a tsunami of all those feelings is going to come back. And that's trauma. So what if I was to say to you, there is a different way of doing it, and you could look at that image. And by looking at that image, I could teach you to manage the levels of fear, so that the more time you looked at the image, and I taught you how to bring your anxiety levels down, eventually, you cut the link between the image and utter panic and fear. And you create a different relationship with that image, which is about feeling sad, but also being able to cope with it. Natasha 26:56 Well, that would be amazing. It doesn't feel realistic. Tanya 27:02 Tell me why. Natasha 27:03 It's, it's been a year, and I don't see my thoughts or feelings changing, about that picture. Tanya 27:12 I've worked with so many people who have had traumatic experiences in their lives, people who've had horrific accidents, lost loved ones, soldiers returning from war where they've seen or experienced horrific things and so on, so on. And absolutely just like you, they'll go, great, Tan, thanks very much. Not sure it's gonna work, but okay. We'll give it a go. Natasha 27:37 Yeah, I'm open to giving it a go. Tanya 27:39 Okay. If we look at the picture together, and it's entirely up to you, what do you think is the worst thing that could happen? Natasha 27:49 Just that I breakdown. Tanya 27:51 Okay. But if we were to look at the picture together, and you were to become emotional with me, and I was able to guide you through those emotions, so that you actually felt more able to manage them. Natasha 28:01 Yeah. Tanya 28:03 Does that feel like a good outcome or not? Natasha 28:04 It does feel like a good outcome. It does. Tanya 28:07 We'll go on do you wanna, shall we look at it together. Natasha 28:09 Okay. Tanya 28:10 So what I want you to notice while you're getting it is notice how your breathing is changing. So it's super important when we start to feel anxious that we really regulate our breathing. Natasha 28:20 Okay. Okay. Tanya 28:22 Okay. So let me just move a bit closer to you and you move a bit closer. Natasha 28:26 Okay, Okay, Tanya 28:29 That's the one isn't it? Should we make her face a little bit bigger? Natasha 28:33 Okay. Tanya 28:34 It's up to you my darling. Natasha 28:35 Yeah, I mean, it's just the tube. Tanya 28:37 It's the tube, it's the tube. So describe what you can see in that picture. And while you're doing it, I want you to notice your breathing already, I can see your body language has changed. So your shoulders have risen you're clasping your hands together and you're squeezing them between your knees. So what I want you to do is I just want to put your hands on your knees, I just want you to relax your shoulders and I just want you to breathe. I want you just to combat the physical, the physiological symptoms of anxiety because we have to be able to look at that with you not in an anxious state. Yeah. Natasha 28:45 Okay, Tanya 28:48 So I just want you to breathe, breathe in, breathe out. Tell me about her. Tell me what's wonderful about her and tell me. Natasha 29:22 I can't even speak. Tanya 29:26 I'm holding your hand. You're okay. Tell me what's so amazing about this beautiful little child. Natasha 29:33 I can't, I can't do this. Tanya 29:35 What are you afraid of my darling? Natasha 29:37 It's just horrible to see. Its just so unfair. Tanya 29:42 Talk to me about that. Natasha 29:44 She's just so tiny. Just this, she shouldn't have to go through something like that. Tanya 29:54 She survived it didn't she? Natasha 29:56 She did and it's just horrible. Tanya 30:02 It is horrible. Natasha 30:06 It's just that pictures like, to the door between what she was and what she is now, you know? She like became the heart of my family. And then she brought us all together. Tanya 30:22 You said something really important. You said two very important things. You've said to me, 'This is the door between how she was and then what she became'. And you also said, 'she brought us all together'. And I'm thinking that that changed to. Natasha 30:37 Yeah. If I, if it happened to someone else, I wouldn't, distance myself from them. I would never do that. So I'm surprised that people did that to me. Tanya 30:49 But you've not recovered the relationships with the other people have you? Natasha 30:52 No, no. I'm reluctant to if I'm honest, because I don't feel like they deserve me. If... Tanya 30:55 Because you're angry with them... Natasha 31:02 Yeah, I am. Tanya 31:03 ... for them not knowing how to support you at the time, and you feel abandoned by them. Natasha 31:09 Yeah. And it's just, I'm offended by it. Tanya 31:13 It's understandable anger. Yeah, I do respect why you feel angry, but it's also an exhausting emotion to carry, isn't it? Can you forgive the people that have let you down? Natasha 31:23 I'm not sure if I could forgive. And that me being honest. Yeah I don't think I could. Tanya 31:27 I respect that. I suppose what I'm saying is I'm not saying that you forgive them, necessarily to their face. But it's more that somewhere in yourself. You can forgive them enough that you just don't have to live with that anymore. Because it's it's another burden of pain for you, isn't it? Natasha 31:47 Yeah. Tanya 31:48 It's the rejection. It's the abandonment. Natasha 31:51 Yeah. It's true what you're saying, but I don't think I could. Tanya 31:56 Okay. Natasha 31:57 I don't think so. Tanya 31:58 As we've been talking Well, I noticed Is that actually you can look at this picture of your beautiful little girl. You're not that anxious actually where I think you're anxious to look at it. But now that you've looked at it, you're allowing yourself to unlock a bit more of the pain. You're not panicking. You're actually quite calm now. Natasha 32:19 Yeah. Tanya 32:20 You're just sad. You're really sad. I wonder if you feel a bit guilty feeling sad looking at a picture of her I wonder if you won't allow yourself to do it because it feels wrong. Natasha 32:31 I just feel like so uncomfortable. Looking at it. Tanya 32:37 This is normal. But having suggested that it might help you to forgive the people who you feel that you don't actually I realised that I made a mistake and asking you to do that because there is actually someone else you need to forgive first. What do you think? Now that you look back at that time in the hospital, I think you're expecting yourself to be able to react in a way that I don't think any human being in that moment would be able to react. The person you love more than anything else in the world, including yourself, you thought was about to die. Yeah. It overwhelmed you to such a degree. You had to leave for a while. How does that make you a bad person? Natasha 33:28 It's like I'm abandoning her. She needed me. Tanya 33:31 She was she was in a coma by them, wasn't she? Natasha 33:34 Yeah, Tanya 33:35 If she'd been awake and calling for you or (Jessica?), you'd have been there. You wouldn't have walked out then would you? Natasha 33:42 But I couldn't watch the process. Tanya 33:45 Why did you need to watch the process darling? Natasha 33:47 Don't know. Because I just. You're not meant to leave your children. You know? Tanya 33:52 If there is a moment where staying with your child is going to distress them more because of your own distress. It feels to me like quite a sensible thing to do if you know that she was safe with other people who were caring for her. Natasha 34:06 Yeah. At least her dad was there. So it's not that bad, but I just wish that I was a bit stronger in that moment. Tanya 34:14 This is about you being a bad mother, isn't it? Natasha 34:17 I don't think I'm a bad mum. I just have guilt about my actions on that day. Tanya 34:23 And how's that gonna help her, now? Natasha 34:25 I'm not gonna make the same mistake again. Tanya 34:27 I don't think he made a mistake. You're taking responsibility for something that you're not responsible for. Natasha 34:33 Which is crazy. I just couldn't do it. Tanya 34:36 No, you couldn't. And that doesn't make you a bad mom. It makes you you. It makes you a woman terrified that she was facing the end of her child's life. And in that moment, you did the best you could and that makes you normal. And if you continue to go back and tell yourself, you should have done it differently. You'll never get past this point my darling. Natasha 35:02 Okay. Tanya 35:04 So what do you think about the fact that I think you need to forgive yourself? Natasha 35:08 It's a valid point. I just feel like that guilt is never going to go away because you can never go back and just, it's just hard. Tanya 35:19 Your perception of what actually happened is probably a bit skewed. Are you alright? Natasha 35:24 Yeah. Natasha 35:25 And shaking. Tanya 35:25 You're clenching your? Tanya 35:27 You're shaking? Take my hand. Just breath. Let's just step away from those thaughts for a minute. Just tell me some of the things that you enjoy doing. What's the track that you listen to when you feel stressed, and you just need a moment to chill out? Natasha 35:44 I listen to all kinds of music, you know. I write a lot. Tanya 35:48 Music or? Natasha 35:49 No i'm an independent filmmaker. So I kind of write scripts, like writing it out. Kind of is like a therapy, in a way. Tanya 35:57 100% so you've just absolutely nailed something for me. You need to rewrite, the script, you have, about that day that we're looking at now in this picture. You've nailed yourself into a narrative that fundamentally ends with and I let you down. Natasha 36:22 Yeah. Tanya 36:24 That is not correct. You did not let her down. But until you can rewrite the narrative and truly, truly shift into an appreciation of the trauma that you were going through in those hours, you were in that hospital, you'll never be able to free yourself from these feelings. And she doesn't need her mom... Natasha 36:46 Yeah, Tanya 36:47 ...to continue to blame herself. Natasha 36:49 Yeah. Tanya 36:49 Are you alright? You're not shaking anymore. How can you rescript this? Natasha 36:56 I just have to accept that that's like the choices I made. Tanya 37:00 You did the best you could. Natasha 37:02 Yeah. Tanya 37:02 You do the best you can every day. Natasha 37:04 I do every day. Tanya 37:05 Yeah, you do. And your belief that somehow you caused this problem in your daughter is not true. How do you feel now? Natasha 37:19 I feel okay. I feel alright. Tanya 37:22 That was a big breath. What was that breath for? Natasha 37:24 It's kinda like, just emotions that I feel, you know? Tanya 37:30 Yeah. Did it break you? Natasha 37:34 No it didn't. Tanya 37:36 It didn't break you at all. And it's interesting. I don't know if you noticed he was the person that kept tapping your phone screen to keep the photo up? Natasha 37:43 It was me. Tanya 37:44 Yeah. She had to be here didn't she? Natasha 37:47 Yeah. Tanya 37:50 I think it would be really helpful for you to have, to see someone to have a few more sessions like this. Natasha 37:54 Yeah. Okay. Tanya 37:57 So your GP could refer you for trauma therapy, but I can also give you other organisations that you can see. Natasha 38:03 Okay. I'm just trying to be the best version of myself, you know? Tanya 38:08 Yeah. But don't try so hard that you forget that being the best version of ourselves means that when we feel vulnerable, it is a strength to be able to express that otherwise in time we'll break. Natasha 38:22 Okay. Thank you. Tanya 38:24 Darling. It's my pleasure. I want to say to you that, you wanted to come here to talk about Elias. Yeah, I think what you've given people has been more than maybe you expected. You are a woman of courage. And a woman who will, I think, give this wonderful little girl the best life she can possibly have. So long as you learn to look after yourself better. Natasha 38:51 Yeah, I will, I will. Claudia 39:02 Okay, now I go back into the room just to see how Natasha was feeling. Number one. Well done. Thank you. How long ago does it feel to you that we first met? Does it feel like a while back? Natasha 39:15 Yeah, it does. Yeah. Claudia 39:16 I feel like you processed something. Natasha 39:20 Yeah, it's a lot. So much going on right now in my brain. Claudia 39:25 I want to say to you when you first came in, jaunty and it was, I said, Why are you here? I didn't even know whether you remember your answer. Your answer was, 'to help other people'. It wasn't about you. Natasha 39:37 It was about awareness. Claudia 39:38 It wasn't about Elias. Yeah, it was just about building awareness. And, how happy are you that you've tackled some things head on. I mean, listening to you and Tan was just. Natasha 39:48 I didn't think we was even gonna go down this route if I'm honest. I'm happy because it made me realise that I do have to look after myself. You know, I spent so much time saying you know, putting up this wall and being like, 'Okay, let's go' like, this is my new reality, that I didn't think of God. Well, you haven't really dealt with those emotions before. Claudia 40:07 I want to know, when you leave here. Natasha 40:09 Yep. Claudia 40:09 And we'll look after you. Who is your first phone call? And what are you gonna say? Natasha 40:14 I'm just gonna call my boyfriend and tell him what happened. And I wish he was here. Because, I think he went through it as well, just as much as me. And it's a shame he, he didn't hear this. Claudia 40:29 He will hear it. Natasha 40:29 Yep Claudia 40:30 I've looked at all the pictures and liked every picture on your Instagram page, and he's obviously a brilliant dad. Natasha 40:36 He's amazing. Claudia 40:37 Does he worry about you? Natasha 40:39 I worry about him. I'm sure he does worry about me. Claudia 40:41 You worry about everyone, can I just say yeah, Natasha 40:43 Yeah I'm worried like this My family unit you know? Claudia 40:46 Yeah. Natasha 40:46 And it would break most couples. Claudia 40:50 Of course. Natasha 40:51 So I... Claudia 40:52 Most couples who've only been together for not very long. Natasha 40:54 Yeah not very long. Claudia 40:55 You feeling right? Natasha 40:56 Yeah, yeah. Claudia 40:57 I want you to feel good. Natasha 40:58 I feel like a weight has been lifted. So i'm good. Claudia 41:01 That's fantastic. Claudia 41:10 I found that, I found that extraordinary to listen to. And, and I just want to say, that I think you're brilliant. And the moment for me is when you said, 'Oh, no, sorry, I've made a mistake. I was asking you to forgive those who have abandoned you, but you need to ask forgiveness for somebody else'. And there was just a beat. And she knew I knew from listening of course, you knew and you said, I think it's myself and then when I spoke to and you said a weights been lifted. Did you, are you happy with what happened? Tanya 41:46 I am, I think it's always a concern. That the, the telling of the story also leads to something, something new, something different. Something that people can take away. Claudia 42:01 Yeah. Tanya 42:02 I guess shine the torch in a different corner of the room, and then suddenly realised that maybe, there could lie some answers, to release us from the pain that we're in. And I hope that that's what Natasha has taken away. I think for me, what broke my heart about Natasha was that, she's trying so hard to be the incredible mother that she is, that she's not allowing herself to also acknowledge the unbelievable pain that she's been through. Claudia 42:35 Yeah. Tanya 42:36 And my concern always for anybody is that if you don't acknowledge the pain, but the pain keeps knocking at the door, for Natasha, it's flashbacks, that pain one day will completely destabilise you. So I hope that for Natasha, she can find ways to process the pain, before it knocks her off her feet. Claudia 43:00 She felt much lighter when she left to me. I tell you what was extraordinary was listening to it, because of course I can't see you. You're in a closed room I should explain. And there was an image on her phone of her daughter in hospital. And she couldn't look at it. And you did some trauma work with her. And she kept on bringing the picture up. She was the one who was keeping her daughter in the room. Tanya 43:24 She did. And I think that's possibly because she, I hope, she realises that that night when she was so full up of terror. Claudia 43:33 Yeah. Tanya 43:34 And she had to leave the room. She did nothing wrong. And she did not let her daughter down for one second. And I think if she can walk away, recognising that, then I think you and I have spent a good afternoon together. Claudia 43:53 And just to say, if you haven't already, please subscribe to this podcast to get free episodes as soon as we've published them and if you enjoy enjoyed this podcast, please rate, comment and share. It helps people to know that we're here. If you didn't like it, please keep it to yourself. If you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email parenting@somethinelse.com that's parenting at something without a G else.com. Next time we meet Karen. Tanya 44:23 Do you think that there's a chance that you and he could raise the girls together? Or are you very clear that this is how it is that you'll be raising the girls on your own and he'll be living in another country? We could? We could never say never. But he would have to talk to me first. Claudia 44:42 This podcast was possible with the help of the following people at something else. The sound engineer is Benjamin Lincoln. The mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Hannah Talbot. The producer is Selina Ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Transcribed by https://otter.ai