Claudia 0:08 Please note there is some very emotional scenes within this podcast that may not be suitable for everyone. Karen 0:16 It might be I I made them mine before they were born and maybe that was something I did wrong. And maybe I pushed him away. Claudia 0:28 Hello and welcome to how did we get here the podcast where me Claudia Winkleman, and my wonderful friend clinical psychologist Professor Tanya Byron, look at the challenges people are facing with their families. Tanya talks to people in special one to one sessions while I'm listening in from the studio next door. In the break, I asked Tan why she went down certain routes with her questions. This time we meet Karen. She's 39, she works full time as a PA, she's married and has 22 year old daughters. Karen and her husband are separated, he left the country when their daughters were very small, and since then their relationship has sometimes been strained. Karen wants to ensure that our daughters have a well balanced upbringing without him. It becomes clear to Karen that she really misses her husband and feels regret that he's not there. And so the conversation becomes less about parenting, and more about couples conflict resolution. Tanya 1:22 Do you think that there's a chance that you and he could raise the girls together? Or are you very clear that, you know, this is how it is that you'll be raising the girls on your own and he'll be living in another country? We could. We could, never say never. Karen 1:38 But he would have to talk to me against Claudia 1:41 What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one time unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on useful links and contact some of which you will find in the programme notes of this episode. Let's go meet Karen Karen 2:03 Good. I wasn't lying down. Claudia 2:09 Listen, you come in there and have a nap if you need it. You have got young children. Thank you so much for coming in. Why are you? karen 2:18 I have a lot of anxiety about how to be a good mom. Claudia 2:23 Okay, how old are they? Karen 2:25 They're gonna be two in a couple of weeks. Claudia 2:27 So cute. Two little girls. Karen 2:29 Yeah. Claudia 2:30 And, how was the pregnancy? How were they when they were little twins is must be very hard Karen 2:35 Umm, pregnancy was tough. I mean, I've got quite a little body. Claudia 2:41 Yeah you do. Karen 2:43 And I've enjoyed becoming a mum. And I think that being a mum made me realise what it is to be alive and what a gift it is. Claudia 2:56 And were you always desperate to be a mom? Karen 2:57 No. Claudia 2:58 No? Karen 2:59 I didn't want to have children. Claudia 3:01 Did you not? Karen 3:01 Not until I met my husband. I think that's why I left it quite late. Claudia 3:05 How old were you when you met your husband? Karen 3:07 Umm, met him when I was 27. Claudia 3:11 So how long were you with him before the babies came? Karen 3:14 Six years. Claudia 3:15 Six years. And so you're mad in love with this lovely boy. And did he want children? Does he persuades you? What was the relationship? Like? Karen 3:23 We did want children? He's not around anymore. Claudia 3:27 Okay. Karen 3:30 I thought he wanted children. I don't know, maybe he didn't. Maybe that's why we're in the position we're in now. Umm it's very different when the here. It changes a lot the dynamic of the relationship and I think umm, looking back maybe, maybe I wanted them and he didn't, and, maybe I forced him into it and he wasn't ready. Claudia 3:52 What's happened to him if I'm allowed to ask? karen 3:54 He's gone back to France? Claudia 3:56 Okay. So he's from France. Karen 3:59 Yeah. Claudia 4:00 You met you fell in love in this country. Karen 4:01 In Paris. Claudia 4:02 Aww Karen 4:03 I moved to Paris to be with him. And I lived in Paris for three years. And then I moved around a bit and came back home. And we plan to get pregnant and we've lived apart a lot so it wasn't a big thing. We had sex on certain days. I was very regimented about that. Claudia 4:20 Very romantic. Karen 4:22 Very romantic. Yeah. Claudia 4:24 Yeah, we will happy. Karen 4:26 But then I found that through my pregnancy, he didn't seem as excited as I wanted him to be. And I think I wanted to be glorified a bit like, 'Oh, my God with doing this amazing thing. And...' Claudia 4:38 Look what my body is doing. Karen 4:39 Yeah, and he wasn't experiencing it with me. And there's a lot of arguments about whether I go back there, or he come here, but I know that if I went there, I wouldn't have any support. And my family is quite big. And we have twins in the family. So I know that I would need the support. Claudia 4:54 Yeah. Karen 4:56 He eventually decided that he would come over. He did six weeks, then he went away. Then he came back and did about three weeks. And then he left for good. Claudia 5:06 So he couldn't hack it? Or he got something that he didn't want.? It sounds like he wants to he planned the pregnancy. Karen 5:13 I don't know if it wasn't the relief that he thought he would be or it wasn't as exciting as he thought it would be. It was hard work. And I knew that, but I think it shocked him. I think maybe he was jealous of it. Or thought that he was no longer needed. I don't know, because you know, he's never told me. Claudia 5:30 He's never told you? Karen 5:32 He's never told me what it is. Claudia 5:33 Do you still love him? Karen 5:34 Do you know what? Claudia 5:34 I can tell you still love him, you're mad for him. Karen 5:37 Do you reckon? Claudia 5:37 Yeah, you went all a bit funny. Karen 5:39 I feel sorry that he's missed out on this experience because he won't have it again. Claudia 5:49 I'm sorry, baby. I'm sorry. Karen 5:52 I knew i'd cry. Claudia 5:53 No darling. I don't want you to be sad. Karen 5:56 Oh i'm not sad and I don't blame him either. Because he's barely talking now, we're all just human. And we can't all react the same way. What worries me most about being a mum is that I don't pass on any bad baggage and any negativity on to my kids because of how I felt about my husband, and that they get everything they need. Claudia 6:18 You're not angry with him? Karen 6:19 I've been angry and I've said horrible things, but got to get on with it haven't you? Claudia 6:24 So he's now in Paris. Karen 6:26 Yeah. Claudia 6:26 So what is he doing now? Karen 6:28 I don't actually know. Because he's not talking to me. Claudia 6:31 He's not talking to you, even though he left? Karen 6:34 Yeah. Claudia 6:35 So how do you communicate with him? Karen 6:37 I send videos of the girls and pictures of the girls. He doesn't talk to me. Claudia 6:40 Do know anyone in his family? Karen 6:42 I do. I was talking to a friend about that today, actually, whether I'm going to contact anyone. Because I'm worried now. Claudia 6:49 So you've come today to find out, how not to pass on any baggage to these beautiful girls. Karen 6:50 Yeah. Claudia 7:02 Okay, I'm so sorry for what you've been through. Karen 7:06 I'm not sorry. Claudia 7:07 Okay, well, you're clearly amazing. You are. I'm gonna make a song. And at the end, we're gonna go to Paris and find him. And I'm gonna send the professor and thank you so much for coming. And then I'll talk to you at the end? Karen 7:24 Yeah. Tanya 7:29 Hello, my love. Nice to meet you. Karen 7:31 Thank you. Pleasure. Tanya 7:32 So, gosh, I was just listening to you talking to Claude and I can see Claude was like I'm really sorry you've been through this but you seem to be quite accepting. You're like, it is what it is. Karen 7:46 It is but I don't what I thought fake it till you make it. So I don't know how much of what I say I believe. Tanya 7:51 Yeah. Karen 7:52 Or is really real for me. But that's what I'm trying to do. Tanya 7:57 Tell me about your daughters. Karen 8:01 They are amazing little girls you know, they're stringing sentences together. Just yesterday I put mimi in the car. And then Monica said, 'I'm tired'. And Mimi said, ''m tired too'. So you know too you know too! Tanya 8:18 But they sounded like two middle aged women just going you know what we're done for the day. Let's go and have a cup of tea. Karen 8:22 It was just very Impressive. Tanya 8:24 I wish people could see what I'm seeing. Just the way your face has change the smile on your face. I mean, they light you up from inside, don't they? Karen 8:32 They're the best thing ever. Because you don't know what it's gonna be like, do you having children? Its amazing. And that's another reason why I'm not as angry with their dad. Because he didn't get to do that. And so I understand if he didn't bond straightaway, because there they were inside me and they're mine. And maybe I think maybe I made them mine, before they were born, and maybe that was something I did wrong. Maybe I pushed him away. I don't know. I think my mom would say I pushed him away. Tanya 9:09 You said earlier to Claudia, you said, I wanted to be glorified, and he didn't glorify me. Karen 9:15 Yeah, I wanted to be worshipped. I wanted to be like, 'this is my wife, and she's pregnant with twins'. And, you know, just not for the whole time, but just sometimes. Tanya 9:28 Did he feel quite detached from it all? Karen 9:30 Yeah. Tanya 9:31 And do you think it was because he was shocked disbelieving afraid? Karen 9:36 I think fear, and uh, I don't think he was shocked because we planned it all. Tanya 9:41 Do you think that there's a chance that you and he could raise the girls together? Or do you very clear that, you know, this is how it is that you'll be raising the girls on your own and he'll be living in another country? Karen 9:55 We could. We could, say never say never. But he You'd have to talk to me first. And he's not spoken to me for a long time. Tanya 10:04 And why do you think that is? Why Did something happen or? Karen 10:08 I don't know why he thinks he can be so angry with me. Tanya 10:11 You are a communicator. You're incredibly open, you're talking openly with me. You've been having therapy, you know, you want to try and improve things. But it's impossible, isn't it when the people that you need to have those conversations with are unwilling or perhaps even to some degree unable to have those conversations. Karen 10:33 I could text him or I know I could make call, but I don't. Part of me doesn't want to share them with him because they're so amazing, and I don't think he deserves them. Tanya 10:45 Because you're angry that he got scared and bolted? But equally, you're wondering whether perhaps partly that happened because once they came along, he was sort of pushed to the side. So it's quite complicated, isn't it? Karen 11:01 I mean I want them to have their dad. I mean, he was so amazing to me. I just don't understand how he can you be so disconnected, that you don't want to make the effort to see them at least once a month. And that makes me angry. Tanya 11:17 Understandable. I wonder if he's angry as well. Karen 11:21 I think he's obviously angry with me. When we are together is so awkward. He doesn't want to talk. Tanya 11:29 Have you sent him a message to say, I don't want to be angry anymore. Is there a way we can try and find a way to talk? Karen 11:36 No, I haven't though every time he comes to UK it's have the same conversations. Tanya 11:42 And what are they? Karen 11:44 That I pushed him away, that I don't let him be a dad to them. Tanya 11:49 Right. You said your mom might have noticed something because She said that. Karen 11:52 Yeah she says that, I'm a bit overpowering. I'm protective. So if he wasn't doing something correctly, I would say so, but I never, you know, stopped him from helping I wanted help. When you have children and you get home from the hospital, it's the biggest shock because you're suddenly alone with these two little things and what do I do with them? And it was nighttime, so he went to bed. But he spent two nights in that room with me and I've had an emergency c section. And I struggled to get in and out of bed. And then he went into another room. And that was it, that was all he's done. And on the second night, he was crying that he was so tired, and it was so hard. And he never made me so much as a slice of toast. And I was so dehydrated and malnourished, my milk dried up in days. And so the girls were bottle fed. I did start doing everything for the girls by myself and not asking him to do anything, because when I asked he did it, way he wanted to do it or own time, even things like I thought would be helpful like he would hold the baby away from his body in one arm, and I would say, 'oh hold her properly hold her to you', you know? I said, you know about taking your clothes off and having skin skin contact, and he would know that this is correct. And I was like, 'It's not correct', It's not about being correct. It's about bonding with your child. And that was another huge argument. Tanya 12:40 So he felt overwhelmed, anxious, exhausted, and also felt that the way he did things wasn't right. Karen 13:39 Yeah. And I've probably made it worse. Tanya 13:42 But I think also you felt unsupported and I hear that you were unsupported. So you were both completely floundering. You were both exhausted. It was such a change that I think it just spun you both out in a way that you were unable to support each other. You could see he was struggling to engage with the idea of being a father. And when he tried you would sort of give him feedback on what he wasn't doing correctly. And he could see that you were exhausted and in pain and and he didn't seem able to engage to help you. It didn't unite you it kind of split you. But it doesn't mean to say that he can't be involved in the girl's life in some way. It just means that somehow you and he have to get past the anger and the resentment, and see if you can try and work out a different kind of relationship. Karen 14:50 I don't think I should have to do that. Set it up. Tanya 14:55 So you're waiting for him to come to you? Karen 14:59 Yeah. Tanya 15:01 I understand that. Maybe his feeling is, 'well, what's the point? Whatever I do isn't good enough', you know? Karen 15:11 Whatever he does is wrong. Tanya 15:12 Yeah, so. Karen 15:13 I still feel that way. Tanya 15:15 You still feel that way about him? So it's a difficult one, isn't it? Because how can you invite someone in who you feel has done so much that's not good enough? Karen 15:29 Last time he was here, I was in the kitchen and I could hear one of the girls shouting about her potty. So I went in said, 'put on the potty, she needs to go'. 'Oh, I didn't know that's what she was saying'. So. Tanya 15:44 Well, I guess he wouldn't would he because he's not been around them. Karen 15:47 So I know I should be more patient. It's just those little things like that, just made me so aware of what he's missed, and that again, makes me angry and that then goes round and round in circles. Tanya 16:00 I understand that you explain it really well, I get it. But if we go back to your original kind of question in a way, which is how can I not let baggage impact on my daughters? Would it be fair to say that until you have resolved some of how you're feeling towards their father, there is going to be baggage for them when they get older? Karen 16:30 Yes. Tanya 16:32 Do you think it? Karen 16:33 Most definitely. Tanya 16:35 What do you think, and this is this is a question because I'm curious as well, really, you can help me with this. What do you think you need to help you get past this sense of being profoundly let down? Karen 16:48 I think what I would really like is if he heard me, and he understood. Because when I said before that we have the same arguments again and again and again. He'd always say yes he understands, but then we'd have the same argument. Tanya 17:05 What then triggers the same argument again? Karen 17:08 It usually comes from him not being helpful. Tanya 17:11 So you might then get annoyed with him like with the potty thing? Yeah, I absolutely am with you on that, frustration. But I'm thinking, possibly the reason he doesn't do it is because he is used to you letting him know that what he does isn't right. So he doesn't want to mess it up. And also, he hasn't been around the girls much. So he needs to learn, he needs to he needs to understand what it is to be a father. Karen 17:41 He does. Tanya 17:43 So maybe your expectations which are understandable might be a little bit too high. If you think that having a conversation where he will listen and say, I hear you I understand that the progress you would make in that conversation would then be undermind the next time you kind of go in like, 'well what are you doing? Why haven't you done that?' Karen 18:05 Yeah, I get that. Tanya 18:07 I'm not blaming you, sweetheart. Karen 18:08 I know you're not. Tanya 18:09 Because you have done an incredible job as a single mother of twin girls working full time. I'm thinking, though, that you and he have just been so caught up in this sort of dance that you're both doing, which is just repeating itself. And it's maybe what we could do today is think about how I can help you be part of changing that repetitive cycle. Conflict Resolution only really ever works. When both sides move away from the position of 'you need to understand my issue' and move into a position of 'let me understand your issue.' So that there is a sense of reciprocity city that reciprocally, I'm understanding why you're upset with me. But you're also understanding why I struggled as well. Do you see what I mean? Karen 18:48 Yeah. Claudia 18:56 So Tan, can I just ask this? And I hope it doesn't sound stupid. Conflict resolution. What is that? Is that because people always have the same argument? Tanya 19:38 Yep. It's used when peace treaties are written. I mean, it's something that isn't just used in couple relationships. It's used in international diplomacy and so on. And it's about trying to find a different way of thinking about the situation that has become so entrenched and stuck because all people can see is what they're angry about. Anger is no way going to help resolve a tricky situation. So if we can agree that we will disagree, but we can try and think about a way to move through those disagreements to find some kind of unity, then we've got a better way forward in terms of our relationship. Claudia 20:30 Okay, thanks Tan. Let's go back to the session. Tanya 20:36 You're an incredible woman, how, you've got yourself and the girls this far, but maybe within all of that, he himself was lost, and because you had no bandwidth, you was so exhausted and overwhelmed, It was impossible for you, understandably, to see that you just felt annoyed with him. And the more you got annoyed with him, the less he felt he could offer. So ultimately he left. I wonder if he knew that you could see that for him, things might start to shift a little bit. Karen 21:15 Yeah. Why do we have to have the same conversations again and again and again? Tanya 21:21 Because you get into that same circular argument, which is you telling him that he's not good enough. Because he's yet again, not responded. Karen 21:32 The way I want him to. Tanya 21:34 Which based on what you've told me, is fair enough. You know? If he's crying on day two, because he's exhausted and can't sleep, you kind of thinking 'come on, mate'. But I think if you want it to shift, you and he would need to start again, with you recognising that at the moment. He kind of doesn't know what he's doing. Does it sound plausible? Does it sounds helpful? Karen 22:01 Oh no definitely yeah. Tanya 22:02 I think there's a long game you can play here. I think there's a different strategy here. And I think you can do it, but I think we have to work out how you do it. You and he might think maybe we could make this work. It may mean that you and he recognised that it's not going to work with you as a couple, but it is going to work with you as co-parents. How do you feel about that? Karen 22:34 Part of me is also a bit wary, that he will get love and attention that he doesn't deserve. Tanya 22:44 I understand that sweetheart, I absolutely get that. Karen 22:47 And I know that it's not for me to jump in and try and change things. I want them to love their dad, but I want them to love him more than me. Is that awful? Tanya 22:56 Of course it's not awful because you felt let down by your partner, and there's a part of you that thinks 'you didn't even deserve to see these girls because you did nothing'. But what you can do, is place that in a different space, to the space that you need to inhabit to think about how you can create and facilitate a relationship between your girls and their father. And if you try and facilitate it, and it doesn't work, then that's on him. And you'll always be able to say to your girls, show them emails messages, you'll say, 'I just want you to know I tried'. Karen 23:40 Yeah. They've already know is that they don't have a daddy. What should I say? Tanya 23:48 Why don't we think about that then, for the next part of our conversation, should we have a bit of a break? Karen 23:53 Yeah. Claudia 24:13 All I can say about Karen's story is the amount of conversations I've had with girlfriends. I mean, who will be listening to this going, 'yeah, he held the baby wrong or he did this wrong'. I mean, I just spent the first four months going, 'what are you doing? Why are you holding the blanket on the left side and not the right', or whatever it was. You end up having the same argument a new babies put two especially enormous pressures on a relationship. Tanya 24:38 Absolutely. There you are as a new mum having an issue with where the blanket is. That comes from you being tired, you trying to work out how to be a mother. And then we go and we change the camera angle to look at the new partner, who is standing there also not knowing what on earth they're doing and trying to get their head around it and also extremely sleep deprived, and then just being told that what they're doing is wrong. That's probably not going to cause a couple to unite to try and solve all these different problems and challenges that come with parenthood. They're not gonna be able to do it. Claudia 25:20 It will ring, so many bells. And I know there is often advice, which is you just got to do it as a team. But it's, it's hard to do it as a team, especially when you think your way is the best way. I'm speaking of course, personally. Tanya 25:36 That's why I love you. Because you are, if nothing else, you're honest. But look, I mean, nothing splits a couple more than children. Nothing. We have to agree that we're not always going to agree. But we also have to agree that if we fundamentally disagree, it's not really going to help our kids. So prepare to be sick. Is it about kindness, then is it about both parties being the bigger person and giving the other one the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't make me feel sick. I think that's right. And I think also it's about understanding that shifting your focus from your own position. Shifting that position doesn't mean you're giving in. Why do we have to always win? I don't even understand that as a concept. This isn't about winning. This is about trying to find your way through in the best way possible to raise the most healthy well adjusted children you can. Claudia 26:31 Well said. I remember phrase, my son wouldn't do something and I was just like 'i'm so frustrated. He will never wear wellies', or whatever it was, and he went Claude, pick your battles. Do you have to do that with grownups as well? Tanya 26:43 Think about the relationships we have with friends. We tend to have more boundaries in relationships with friends and we tend to pick our battles. We tend not to argue so much with friends, we tend to think 'oh, well, you know, she's a bit like that', or 'oh well, she's had a bad day' or whatever. But when we're in the kind of intimacy of our own home and we're in our relationship, the gloves come off and suddenly, we can start to descend into something that feels quite childlike and sort of not very thoughtful. But is it putting them in any harm? Are they distressed? Nope. Do they seem happy? Yes. So where's the battle to fight? Claudia 27:22 Okay, i'm gonna go and get her. Tanya 27:34 So it's something about your relationship wasn't able to transition into being a couple with children. You could be a couple without children, but being a couple with children didn't feel possible. Why do you think it wasn't possible for you to find your way together? Karen 27:53 Well, he said, that leaving Paris for him would make him very uncomfortable. I just thought that when the girls came, I would need more help than I would be able to have over there on my own. Part of me understands his fear. But I also thought that he would, when the girls would come, we would both evolve. Tanya 28:17 How did you try? Karen 28:18 Well just make sure he was in the country for the scans. I wanted him to come to classes with me. But he didn't want to come until the girls were ready to be born. He seemed lacklustre, about those things. Tanya 28:34 And why do you think that was? Do you think he was afraid? Do you think he hadn't really engaged with the idea of being a parent in the way that you had? Karen 28:41 He never gave me any clues as to whyhe acted the way he did. I didn't get it. And I think that's why it's also easy to be angry because I don't know what else was stopping him. Tanya 28:57 Sure, and that's really honest with you, but that's why relationship It's generally fall apart because people choose anger over understanding. And then once you're locked into anger, nothing really ever changes does it? Karen 29:09 No. Tanya 29:11 You did your pregnancy here... Karen 29:14 Yeah. Tanya 29:14 ...in the UK, but he remained in Paris. So even before the girls were born, you and he began to be quite disconnected. In the way that you became a mother through your pregnancy- It's a process, isn't it? You know, you sort of bond as you're pregnant and you begin to get your idea around being a mother- he didn't have any of that. He didn't have the lying in bed at night and talking to the bump and all those sorts of things that partners can be involved in. He had none of that. He sort of arrived when these two babies turned up and then everything was just mayhem. So he'd had no kind of run into it. Karen 30:04 No, not really. Tanya 30:07 So it's kind of not surprising that he probably just thought, 'what the hell?' Karen 30:14 Yeah, but again, I blame him for that, because I told him to be here. Initially, I was going to go back to Paris, but that was before I knew we had twins. Tanya 30:23 What is it, You think, he needs to hear from you that will enable him to feel heard? Karen 30:30 He says, he's hurting. And I believe him because he's crying. He's not the type to cry. I know he's hurting. But as I said, to him so many times, what is it that's upsetting you? And he can't answer. Tanya 30:42 But what do you think it is? Karen 30:45 I think he, I think he loves me, and I think he wants I think he wants to love his girls. I think he doesn't feel about them the way I feel and I think he feels bad about it. Tanya 30:58 And why do you think he doesn't feel about them what you feel? Karen 31:01 I know what he's like when he's in love. And I know how he acted with me, how warm he is and such an amazing person. But he doesn't do that to the girls. He doesn't show that to the girls. I think he doesn't love them the way he thinks he should, and I think that hurts him. Tanya 31:23 Do you think he's had a chance to fall in love with them? Karen 31:26 No. Tanya 31:28 So it's not that he couldn't love them and be this wonderful, warm man that you've just described to me and it's made you cry because you know who he is, don't you? Karen 31:36 Well I thought I did. Tanya 31:38 But maybe the problem was once you and he started to separate in the pregnancy, your connection with these two beautiful girls, you kind of raced ahead, and he's starting the process, possibly at the most difficult time. Karen 32:01 Yeah. Tanya 32:02 And it probably freaked him out. I wonder. I'm not defending him, by the way, because I know you were left literally carrying the babies. I know that. But I'm trying to think about it from his position because I reckon if he feels understood, you and he have a better chance of rebuilding a relationship that enables the girls to have a mum and a dad in their lives in whatever form that will take. How can you facilitate a process to enable him to fall in love with his daughters? What do you think could be the way that that could happen? Karen 32:57 I know I want to happen logically, but I know how I feel. I'm still angry and resentful, and you can't just stop those feelings. Tanya 33:09 But you could maybe challenge them if you started to look at this a different way. You know when we talk about issues that can occur after a baby's born, obviously one of them is postnatal depression or postnatal illness. It can affect men to people find this really very, very difficult to get their heads around. How can it affect a man? Well, they didn't give birth there's no hormonal issues. But there are men who, for the first time in their life will experience mental health difficulties following the birth of their child. And I wonder whether for him, it's almost like he was the one that had the postnatal depression and couldn't bond with the babies and just fled. He just couldn't deal with it. What do you think about that as a concert? Karen 34:03 Oh definitely, yeah, he told me he was depressed. I also told him that I'm having therapy and I said 'have you got anyone you can speak to?' I said, 'even if it's a friend' and he said, 'No one knows that I'm back in Paris.'. I said 'what do you mean that one knows, you've got to work.' And that's when I found out that he wasn't going back to work and that he had hidden in his house. Tanya 34:31 So he is actually what you're telling me now is he has become depressed since this all has happened. So that helps us understand his behaviour in another way as well that this has come from a place of depression and helplessness, not a place of selfish indifference. Karen 34:54 I think he was selfish before. Two years after I moved to Paris, I got pregnant. I'd already called my mom and my sister really excited. He said he didn't want it, but I could go home and have it by myself, or I could stay with him and have an abortion. And I ended up having the abortion. And I was really depressed after that, but he was really cold about it. He thought was quite pathetic. So I have seen that, I've seen it before. Tanya 35:35 And have you ever forgiven him for that? Karen 35:38 I did forgive him,and I forgave myself. I feel like I made a mistake. And I should just come home and had the baby. Tanya 35:48 Which is what you did this time around. Karen 35:50 Yeah. But he promised me. We made a promise that we would never make a mistake like that again. And at the next time, would be the right time, and the we would do it properly. So that's another reason why I feel let down. Tanya 35:53 That he didn't deliver on his promise? Karen 36:08 Yeah. Tanya 36:12 Do you think if you'd stayed in Paris, it would have been different when you were pregnant? Karen 36:16 I think if we'd stayed in Paris, he would have been better off mentally, and I wouldn't. Tanya 36:23 So the reality is probably moving forward, that the girls will have their father in Paris and their mother in the UK. And that's the best outcome for them in terms of how things move forward in everybody's lives? Karen 36:41 Umm, I could move to Paris, I could do it. I've kept up my French lessons, you know, made sure that the girls have access to a French nanny. I've always thought at some point they will be there. But if he doesn't sort himself out and get himself a good job- because he will have to look after us, I won't be able to earn as well there- then that's not going to happen. Tanya 37:14 But we still got to get past this I idea that you're conflicted. Do you want to have them for yourself? Or are you prepared to do whatever it takes to see if you and he could raise them together? In some way, whatever way that ends up being. Karen 37:33 Yeah. Like I said before, its on me to fix it, and I find that unfair. I know I've got to do what's right. Tanya 37:45 Hence your ambivalence about whether to engage or not engage. But I do agree with you, It's not your responsibility. He needs to recover from this depression that he possibly find himself in. But is there a way that the process could start by just simply having a different kind of conversation? Karen 38:13 I think so. Tanya 38:14 How do you think that conversation could look? Karen 38:19 The first word that came to mind was me grovelling? I think I do need to, let him know that he's valued, and that he has value and that his thoughts and feelings are important. And that we need to do this together. Tanya 38:34 Doesn't sound like grovelling. That sounds like kindness. That sounds like compassion. It's interesting because what you're saying is what people often say when you do this kind of conflict resolution work, which is, but hold on a second, Tanya, you're telling me that I need to sit there with all my hurt and pain and I need to forget about that. And I need to look across the room and show compassion to the person who I feel. Let me down. Well, that feels like they've won. I'm giving in, I'm grovelling. I would say, I don't think it's being submissive or grovelling, I think it's being smart and compassionate. Because the reality is, you're at this moment, probably the stronger one, the one who possibly can change the conversation. The point is, you show a different approach, which enables him to also then engage in a different way. And what I've seen many times, in the work I do, is when one person shifts their perception and says 'actually I want to think about how this has felt for you.' You can feel the tension and the anger just leave the room. And what that generally leads to, if it works, is 'I'm sorry, I let you down.' And it's really interesting looking at now because you're really listening aren't you. I can see you like thinking. It's interesting. Yeah, what are you thinking? Karen 40:27 I'm thinking that I can do it? I know I can do it. I mean, once I've done that, how do I not then bring up something that hurt me in the past? Because I think it's really important that you don't keep going back. Tanya 40:41 I agree with you sweetheart. Will you keep going back because you don't feel heard either. I get it. But you have a better chance of that being acknowledged, when he feels he is understood in a way that doesn't make him feel like he's totally failed. Because my sense is he must feel like- particularly now he's lost his job. He must feel like he has failed at everything. Still not convinced? Karen 41:12 No, I am. I'm just thinking how. Can he respond will he answer the phone? Tanya 41:19 Could you write to him? Karen 41:21 Yeah, Tanya 41:22 I think what's really nice about a letter, is that you can really reflect and redraft, so you don't send it in a moment of high emotion, but you've really thought about it. And he has time to read it, and then read it again, and then read it again. It just kind of slows the conversation down so there's no misunderstanding. So see if you can just give me your opening couple of sentences. Karen 41:57 Dear Hubby. Umm, I hope this letter brightens your day. I've always liked receiving things in the post. I want you to know that you're loved, and that it's time for us to come together and reconcile our differences, because we have two amazing little girls who need that daddy. Tanya 42:34 What can you see my eyes? I don't often get tears in my eyes. Karen 42:43 I cry all the time. Tanya 42:45 I don't, not in my job. But you've just brought tears to my eyes. So that's your opening. You're saying we're going to reconcile for our girls here. And that's beautiful. What's the next bit? Because, you've stated your position in the most beautiful, compassionate way. What's your next statement you want to make to him? Because this is where you're now shifting the narrative, you're shifting the way the conversation has gone previously. Karen 43:19 I'd like to know what he would like, ideally, in an ideal world, what would he like to do, If there was nothing in our way, what would he want to do? And then maybe we can put some steps in place to make that happen. Tanya 43:33 Lovely. So now you're giving him choice. You're saying I want to be there. I want us to try and reconcile our differences. But I'm not going to take charge on this. Brilliant. The next bit of the letter would then be you telling him that you understand that he is in pain. How would you do that? How could you express that to him? Karen 44:02 The last few times that we've been together, you've been in tears and you've never been able to say why that is, or what it is you need. I just want you to know that I understand that I have a part to play in us going wrong. Tanya 44:23 Tell him what you think he might have experienced. Karen 44:27 I understand that I might have made you feel unneeded and unwanted, and that was never my intention because I do need I do need you. You're missing out. You're missing out on so much joy. That you can't imagine. So it's time to do something about it. Tanya 44:55 You are remarkable women. Karen 44:59 It'll be remarkable when I write the letter. Tanya 45:03 That came very naturally. I didn't hear anger, I didn't hear blame, I didn't hear recrimination, I heard love. I heard you talking to the man that you have been for many years in love with, who you know is lost. And I heard a letter saying to him, I want to help you find a way back to us. We're done. You've done it. You've moved somewhere else that I do believe could enable you to start a better chapter for you and the girls, and for him. Claudia 45:57 Hi. Are you alright? Oh baby. Karen 46:02 I'm a hot shitting mess. Claudia 46:04 Aren't we all? You're so brilliant to come today. Do you feel alright? Tanya 46:10 Yeah, I feel great actually. Claudia 46:12 We came in here. I got a bit, grrr about him. And then of course, the brilliant Professor Tanya, like, goes 'Hold on a minute. Maybe this boy is in pain' and I was listening going, ' what, I did not see this coming.' And I think he'll be totally taken aback won't he. Karen 46:31 Yeah I think he will. Claudia 46:33 Do you feel good? Karen 46:34 Yeah I do. Claudia 46:36 You look really good. I mean you looked good before but you look quite powerful. Karen 46:41 I can't wait to go and write my letter. I just want to get it sorted. Claudia 46:46 Thank you so much. Karen 46:48 Thank you. Claudia 46:48 Go and cuddle those little puffins, from us. They sound amazing and good luck with him. Karen 46:54 Thank you. Claudia 47:00 Before the break, you said, I just I think you said I want a shift in her perception. And it was, sort of a 180. Because she came in here, she was angry with him, I was angry with him. And then you mentioned something that we never talk about, which is some men have some mental health difficulties after having a child, a sort of male postnatal depression, if you like. Tanya 47:30 If you look at the research around this, it's estimated between 8 and 10% of new fathers will be diagnosed with what's called male postpartum depression. And these can be people who might have had previous periods of depression in their life. And these could be people who might never have struggled with depression in their life and it's complex, and there are often many factors involved, and everybody's different. But it isn't often spoken about because the focus, quite understandably, is on the mum. And the new father can also be struggling with a transition into this new role in his life, and that struggle for some men can cause them to become clinically depressed. And I think if we listen to Karen story, you know, her husband wasn't with her during the pregnancy, he didn't have that time to prepare. He couldn't cope. And of course, he couldn't cope, and she had to cope, and you can understand why she then resented him for that. And then that's where the cycle begins. Claudia 48:41 The letter was extraordinary. I sort of want to watch him read it, which I know is illegal and not fair. Karen 48:49 Why is it illegal? Claudia 48:50 Well I can't sneak into his house, I don't know where he lives and I can't possibly get the Eurostar. I've got to put my kids to bed but that's a whole nother story. But the point is, it's such a shift. It's not just, I want you to hear me, I felt sad, our daughter wanted to use the potty, you didn't get it for in time. Or, but now I will hear yours. It's not that sort of measured thing that we're always told, if you watch shows about therapy, or if you read the story, you go, 'oh, yes, you both need to say, your piece.' And, it's not that, it's just, I think I was hard on you, and you are loved. And it was so open and so warm. And, you know, he's been tearful. And I don't know, I feel very hopeful. Tanya 49:38 She was recognising that he has felt really marginalised and sidelined. And, you know, people would say, yeah, well, you know, he put himself in that position, and then we get back into judgement and blame and I kind of think everybody knows what the story is, so we don't have to keep telling the same story. You know, at some point, we got to move on. It felt to me like she was opening her arms and, saying, come back, welcome back, we need you. Claudia 50:08 Yeah. Tanya 50:09 And that, I found extraordinary. For me, you know, you're standing at the bottom of a mountain and you're looking at the peak and you're thinking, I will never climb that. It's impossible. Forget it. I think all I did is I took a hand and I walked around to another side of the mountain where actually, it was a bit clearer. There was a bit more sun on that side of the mountain, she could see the terrain. She wasn't just looking at the peak, she was thinking, 'Okay, maybe I could just make the first stage of the mountain.' And that's kind of what therapy is. It's about breaking something down and thinking, Okay, how can I look at this differently? How can I change my view and by changing my view, if I see things more clearly, how can that clarity of vision enable me to take the next step on the journey to healing. Claudia 51:04 Basically, we gave her crampons. Karen 51:07 Do you think? Claudia 51:09 Yeah. You gave her the equipment. She's off. Tanya 51:15 I think she had those crampons. I think I just gave her a nudge to put them on. Claudia 51:22 Maybe a head torch. I'll stop using, I literally have never been outside. Me talking about... Tanya 51:28 Have you ever climbed a mountain Claude? Claudia 51:30 I haven't gone up a hill babe. Tanya 51:32 Okay, so maybe you need to stop with the, with the metaphors. Claudia 51:35 Yeah. Can't spell metaphor. Thank you. And a reminder, if you haven't already, please click on the subscribe button and you'll receive free episodes, literally the minute they're ready. And please do spread the word and comment. We would love to hear what you think. And if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email parenting@somethinelse.com. That's parenting at somethin without a G else.com. Next time we meet Emma, Tanya 52:10 Do you seek validation from others by putting yourself out there really massively to try and keep everything happy. And then when somebody changes that dynamic, you feel really hurt because there is that part of you that just wants to keep things nice. Emma 52:27 Yeah, absolutely, I really do. Tanya 52:28 So the reaction of others can have a real impact on you. Emma 52:31 Yes, oh totally. Claudia 52:34 This podcast was possible with the help of the following people at Somethin' Else. The sound and mix engineer is Joe Gibbs. The assistant producer is Hannah Talbot. The producer is Selina Ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Transcribed by https://otter.ai