EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 10: SOCIAL MEDIA: Being Curious Not Critical with Ayishat Akanbi

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello, you're listening to exactly with me Florence given. I want to thank you so much for joining me and for all of your support so far, making this podcast is such a joy and it means the world to know that it's all resonated with you. If you've listened before you know that we're breaking up the first season into five topics, sex, feminism, body image relationships, and today we're continuing the mini season on social media.
My guest today is writer and commentator on the Internet's woke culture her name isAyishat Akanbi and I call and wait for you to hear this conversation. At the end of the episode, we'll be answering your questions that you sent in by my Instagram stories. Thank you so much for sending them all in, in the fourth episode of this mini series.
Remember, I want to hear from you, my guest and I will be answering your calls, texts, and your voicemails. So any questions or dilemmas that you have to do with social media or the internet? Drop me a line on my podcast. WhatsApp. The number is plus four. 7 8 9 0 3 0 [00:01:00] 2 6 6 5. So this mini season is all about social media.
Most of you are probably here listening right now because you saw something on social media about the podcast, or maybe you followed me on social media and that's how you came to find it. Social media has been a big part of. It's given billions of people, the ability to express our ideas and hopefully inspire people in a way that wouldn't be possible 10 or 15 years ago.
I'm a massive advocate for just putting your shit out there, putting your artwork out there and seeing what happens. If I never posted my drawings on Instagram, receive feedback and then continue creating them. I would not have this career. I would not have gone on to write. And I probably also wouldn't have this podcast in my book, Women Don't Owe You Pretty
I dedicated an entire chapter to talking about social media and the myriad of ways that it's helped me in my career. I've learned so much from the people I follow and the information and ideas that are shared there. I've made friends through social media and it's also allowed me to create business opportunities for [00:02:00] myself.
The internet has enabled incredible grassroots activist to spot movements that have resulted in actual systemic. In this season, we'll be exploring our lives online from a number of different angles. But one person I knew I had to talk to on the subject, she actually might have been the first guest that I suggested to my podcast team that I actually wanted to interview, uh, it's Ayishat Akanbi. Ayishat has an incredible razor-sharp mind and her analysis of this really hectic, confusing, online culture surrounding social justice or wokeness is just so fucking vital and refreshing. And what I love about what Ayishat does is that she's not someone to bite her tongue when she sees something that's wrong.
And I think that's what I find really inspiring about her. In this episode, I want to find out more from my Ayishat about what led her to not only holding these beliefs about cancel culture and wokeness, but actually expressing them online, which for a lot of us is the scariest thing to even imagine doing, [00:03:00] I think is extremely remarkable for someone to talk about.
So freely when it's becoming increasingly harder to voice any opinion that deviates from sounding like it's been copied and pasted from a politically correct article. Ayishat calls for more empathy, more space, more complexity, and more nuance. And that is exactly why I started this podcast. I've become so frustrated with the limitations of having complex discussions on a platform, such as Instagram, that doesn't really reward complexity and actually rewards the reduction of big concepts to small attention grabbing means or 140 character tweets.
I really hope that this conversation liberates a lot of people from feeling like you can't say what you're thinking in a way that is still compassionate. I really just want to question and open up and unpack the way that we talk about politics and the way that we talk about identity politics today and how there are probably way more effective ways that we can be doing this, that don't hurt one another. [00:04:00] 
So I Ayishat, I'm going to be asking you my high-five questions. I ask all of my guests them, just say the first thing that comes to your mind.
Ayishat: Ok, fire away.
Floss: What is one thing that's sets your soul on fire?
Ayishat: Music.
Floss: If you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life, a look that would define you forever.
What would that outfit be? 
Ayishat: Oh my gosh. Wow. 
Floss: You're a stylist so!
Ayishat: Um, probably some form of jumpsuit. Okay. I'm quite into the jumpsuit and kind of work wear, so I think so. Yeah, I would do something like that. I imagine. Okay. 
Floss: What's something that people frequently misunderstand or get wrong about you?\. 
Ayishat: That I'm political. 
Floss: Okay. Okay.
Finish this sentence. I'm still a work in progress when it comes to?
Ayishat: Love. 
Floss: Okay. When was the last time you majorly cringed at yourself? 
Ayishat: I mean, that's fairly frequent. 
Floss: You've spoken a lot about cringing at yourself. It's actually being a good thing. 
Ayishat: Yes, it is actually. So, um, when was the last time he majorly cringed?[00:05:00] 
I'm more than the kind of person who always says things to someone. And then after. Gosh, why did I say that? So probably at some, probably at some point this week, I can't, well, we were only on Tuesday yesterday at some point. Definitely. I can't remember what it was.
Floss: I've been so excited to interview you. I found your work on the last year a friend sent me your tweets and as someone who was deeply entrenched in work culture and the obsession with the binary of good or bad person, depending on first of all, how angry you are on the internet. And second of all, Based on the popular opinion at the time, kind of moving with that kind of like a road in my gut instinct because I was never really thinking for myself, but I thought I was because the opinions were quote unquote, the correct opinions, um, reading your tweets felt illegal.
It literally felt illegal. Uh, and I think that speaks to the problem about woke culture as it is currently that even having thoughts is illegal. [00:06:00] Um, can you talk about what you think the problem with wokeness is you posted a video in 2018 talking about it to anyone who didn't see the video. Can you talk about what you think the issue is?
Ayishat: Yeah. Yeah. There's there's many issues. I think that I would see in that culture. Um, and in fact, you actually touched on something in a way. I think the main way that I can sum it up is I would say that people are being carted away from intuition into ideology. And so you said it, when you mentioned like things that were in your instinct thing that were in your gut, I think when we're taught how to kind of disregard that, ignore that and go with the popular opinion.
And I really think that, um, I really value the mind. I really value thinking. I really value being honest, um, and trying to get to explore yourself and understand yourself. I only think you can confront a problem if you understand it. Okay. But we're not being encouraged to understand things we're being encouraged to kind of take a very binary understanding [00:07:00] of the world that I see as very simplistic. I don't think it's a fight between good and evil. I think there's light and dark in all of us. And I think those who overlook that side of themselves, Uh, often prone to get trapped by that. Um, and so I think for me, I remember being around my friends. I have a lot of friends who may be, identify as queer and maybe this is where I think I first started to notice something was not quite right where I would be saying things that were at one point, I thought fairly normal. I've never seen myself as a controversial person. So it's funny when people say that reading, my tweets can feel illegal, but it certainly does speak to the problem, but I'd be just saying what I think. And all of a sudden my friends would be saying they're triggered. And you know, I, at first, I didn't quite understand what that meant, you know? Um, I really didn't. And then all of a sudden I noticed lots of people around me were having the exact same opinion on things and even using the exact same words. Um, and I think. You know, 10 people are saying the [00:08:00] exact same thing, then, you know, 10 people aren't thinking. Some of the most profound change comes when you have the ability to be honest with yourself.
And I do not believe that this culture that we have been seeped in for quite some time now, truly allows that, I think it's more about hunting out the bad guy. And I, I just, I think in many ways, see many of the ways that we're trying to improve the world has made it harder to live in. Um, and so that's what I think makes me talk about it.
You know, it was never from a political perspective. It was just like, I really feel that we are losing what's beautiful aboutbeing human. 
So w w what you said then about if 10 people are thinking the same thing, thinking, I thought it was fucking brilliant. Um, and I actually have one of your tweets here where you said we're so suffocated by conformity, that any opinion that is not a slight variation of a social justice slogan is interpreted as problematic instead of a person who hasn't crafted their worldview from memes, viral tweets and [00:09:00] infographics. Would you say that summarizes what you're saying about 10 people saying the same thing. They're not actually thinking for themselves, but it sounds intellectual and it using the same words as well. 
Yeah, exactly. That. And it's a product of, of the internet generation. Like these days we're encouraged to believe to be a so-called good person isn't necessarily about how you behave, but what you think. And, you know, and when we spend so much time online, the only way that I guess that we can show who we are is maybe by what we think. Cause people can't see our actions. Um, but more than anything, you know, I just, I really want people to, um, to work harder to understand each other and themselves. 
Floss: So when you, said you were confronted by all of your friends saying that they were triggered by something words, what was their reaction to you questioning that? Because I think we do find questions offensive, but then not. And it's almost like it is very cult-like and if you can't question something or you will receive backlash for questioning it or punishment or isolation, [00:10:00] it goes against what all humans crave, which is a sense of belonging. And that's like, The most dehumanizing thing. And I think you've said, you've pointed out the irony between a movement, which constantly talks about mental health and protecting your mental health and all of this kind of stuff. And then in an instant one also ostracizes someone. Could you speak more about that?
Ayishat: Yeah, completely. I would say that I haven't actually experienced much direct backlash. So people being vocally opposed at least maybe, um, directly to me about what I say, but what I have noticed is, you know, people feeling as though, I'm not sure if it's okay to speak to Ayishat. I don't know where she stands. 
Floss: I wasn't sure if I could interview you for this for my podcast. So a again, quote, unquote controversial. 
Ayishat: And that's because. Seemed to show people a clear position, you know? So she on the left, is she a conservative? You know, like, what is this as some spiritual thing, you know, people [00:11:00] can't really work out what it is and people want to work out what you are..
Floss: And who you are. 
Ayishat: Yeah, who you are. And it's funny, like we're sort of in the age of being non binary or where we've kind of recognized that, you know, we shouldn't have binary thinking, but we are the most binary, you know, types of thinkers at the moment. Um, You don't need to know what I am, but it's got to this point where what people perceive you believe is more important than how you treat them. Um, you know, um, and, and my treatment of everybody has, I've always aimed at least to treat everybody the same in the same way that I would like to be treated just the golden rule, but that doesn't matter anymore. Um, and so, yeah, there's this real need to kind of put people in boxes and if you can't put them in a box, well, then you'll just, yeah, I'm not necessarily worthy of being spoken to a lot of the time. And it is very dehumanizing. It is a very isolating time. I've known so many people to. Um, have lost friends, relationships, even friendships of years, or just over a [00:12:00] difference of opinion. And that's because we don't see it as a difference of opinion anymore. It's a difference in morality. Yeah. 
Floss: But that's my experience too. And I think, um, dating and friendships and relationships of any kind of becoming increasingly fragile with the internet and with wokeness and with having the right opinions and with counsel culture. Um, and I think it's really hard to trust people, uh, for me it is anyway because, because of what I've witnessed and what I've experienced myself, when any kind of intimacy with a person could also be used against you for, for clout or, or for some kind of exchange to make yourself look better. And I think we've learned now over time through witnessing all of these call-outs or whatever the hell you want to call it, that there is a social currency attached to when you call someone out because victim hood is now rewarded. And so it's like, it's the cycle, um, where people will throw their friends under the bus for that kind of, you know.
Ayishat: There are a lot of people at the moment who feel like they can't trust anyone. They feel like the world is against [00:13:00] them. They feel like people are lying to them. And I feel as though well, why wouldn't people think the best option is to lie to you when you throw your friends under the bus, when you act like rage is compassion, and you think like being offended makes you a better person than anyone. So what I think actually, a lot of people who have kind of taken on the tenets of let's say woke culture, what they actually do is encourage people to lie to their faces. Um, and may do that because these people are often showing that they can't handle that. You know, um, honesty is going to be taken as -
Floss: Because we're triggered.
Ayishat: Exactly. So not even just maybe because we're triggered because let's say anything that doesn't conform to, uh, the approved narrative is some form of bigotry or some form of prejudice and things like that. Nobody wants to be labeled a bigot or a racist or whatever kind of phobic we have at the moment. And so rather than tell you my opinion and have you misunderstand me and want you to throw me under a bus, I'll tell you what you want to hear, you know, and that is [00:14:00] what a lot of people are doing and that's quite patronizing. It's very infantilising 
Floss: I can't trust you to handle your fucking emotions. 
Ayishat: Exactly. It's quite infantilising .
So you teach people that the best thing to do is to almost treat you like a toddler. I, you often see like, oh, A lot of woke culture as like a shelter from reality. And again, I think this is, um, making us less able to handle, you know, the life is tough, you know? Um, and we do need resilience. I think victimhood culture is prevailing because the only ways these days that we feel justified to show anyone compassion is if they have some victim narrative.
Floss: Yep. 
Ayishat: If you don't have that, then you're automatically privileged. And if you're privileged, well then of course you don't deserve any kind of decency.
Floss: I think, to kind of get yourself out of that bubble of, um, like you said, the victim hood narrative. I actually started to ignore and dismiss the opinions of my dad. Who's obviously a white guy. Because he's a white man. And this was right at the beginning of [00:15:00] my kind of feminist journey. I was learning about violence against women, and I was becoming really passionate and enraged. And I dismissed the opinions of my dad because he's a man. And actually what I missed is that he is so fucking wise.
He is so resilient. He's probably the best guy I know in my life. And he has so much. Uh, value with his opinions. And I would just kind of like dismiss anything you said, and then like a couple years later, but like, he was fucking right about that. And I think it's taken me being put in, in that box for something that I'm not to extend that empathy and be like, wow, how have I made people feel like this before you, you said you haven't experienced anything really like that. Um, but what got you into caring about people that this happens to, because I feel like it is so unpopular. To have that standpoint when you haven't been through something like that yourself, because it takes a lot of empathy to look at someone that everyone is saying it's about a person and extend your hand out and be like, let me help you.
I think this is wrong. What's happening to you. I [00:16:00] want to know where that came from.
Cause it's really beautiful. 
Ayishat: Oh, thank you. I, I re that's really kind and you know, if I'm honest, it probably came from, um, quite traumatic situations, you know, in 2012, uh, my brother died, you know, he was murdered. I think the way that I try to make sense of that he was murdered by a young man in that instance, I think I, I knew myself to be a different person.
I don't think I knew I had maybe what you're calling empathy at that time, but it was either I try to understand what is in the mindset of a young man, you know, who would go out just for things, just for material things and kill someone. And I was just really interested in. This person was thinking about the culture that kind of condones this.
I was thinking about status. Why do we want status? Why do we need these things? Why do we present ourselves in the way that we do? I slide to thinking about all of those types of things, um, to try and [00:17:00] gain some understandings, to try and gain some, you know, and also some peace because the alternative is me being potentially very angry and cold, maybe understandably so.
But who does that serve? You know, it doesn't serve me that I think in that moment, I recognize that traumatic and heartbreaking things are written into the contract of life and are going to keep happening. And how am I going to deal with those things each time? Am I going to crumble? And so I think at that point, I just became someone not necessarily consciously, but someone who was very interested in understanding my environment and the people around me and why we do what we do.
I was very interested in why I do what I do. And so I'm not someone who presents myself or identifies as a good person. I'm trying person, if anything. And I can't berate people for what I see in myself. I just try to, I can't, you know, all these things that you're saying about, you know, your dad, you know, and, and at that place that you were, when you were angry at him and you were enraged because he was away, I've been [00:18:00] there. You know, I I've been in many of the spaces or mindsets that I now am critical of. That's why I'm more curious than I criticized. And I try to not even judge, I just tried to show people the behavior.
Floss: Speaking of perpetual anger, I've seen that you write tweets about how perpetual anger is a sign, no, someone who isn't perpetually angry. It's like a sign that they're privileged when actually it could be someone who's pulled themselves up from rock bottom and just as a fuck ton of resilience. And that's what I, that's why I brought up your brother is that you went through something horrendous and yet people might see your stance on politics today and be like, we just say fucking privilege. Don't have to worry about it Ayishat,, when actually. It could be a sign that you've just, you've been through a lot and you've worked to build that responsive state as opposed to a reactive one.
Ayishat: You have to go through a lot of hard stuff to learn how to become soft. Mm. You know, and I would say that, [00:19:00] yeah, I would say that I actually have, um, you know, most people who meet me and I, I still think the way that I try to approach a lot of ideas that would otherwise be seen as controversial. Um, I have a soft way of approaching it because I don't necessarily kind of buy into the idea that, you know, having the right politics makes you a good person. I don't buy into the idea that, um, being on the wrong side means that you or having the incorrect opinion stops one from being potentially a loyal person, someone who's a good listener, someone who is dependable and all of these sorts of things.
Um, I just can't buy into such a myopic and simplistic way of viewing the world. Um, I also don't buy into the notion that my identity, um, inherently makes me an authority on anything or that your identity, um, disqualifies you from understanding anything. I just can't see the world in that way. I've got friends and talk to all types of people and the way that the world is presented and the way that humans [00:20:00] are presented online is very.
Different to how I've got to know so many different people. And so I guess, fundamentally, I just don't buy into it. And a lot of people, I think don't buy into it. Um, and for me, I think when I realized, you know, what I'd gone through this experience of my brother, which is probably one of the hardest anyone can go through. And I thought, if I can go through this and I'm still here, why can't I hear someone out with an opinion? That's really maybe a testable to me if I'd gone through that and I was still here, I guess that taught me, you know, you'd go through anything, um, or at least withstand anything and, and really tried to see where people are coming from.
And I just think why people believe what they believe is a much more interesting question to me than, well, I don't know then trying to convince them to, to be otherwise. I think once you understand why and you understand people's ingredients, um, and I think the more that. Interrogate yourself. And the more that you explore yourself, it's really hard to kind of come at people, um, in this really combative way because you make [00:21:00] yourself cringe.
Cause you're like, you're lying, Ayishat!. You did this yesterday. You did this an hour ago. 
Floss: Yeah. I, I wrote something, um, on my Instagram a few years ago they just said stop canceling people for that you just stopped doing yourself. Um, and it was like, what I find absolutely baffling is that someone can think that they are a better person because they read an infographic a week before you did, and then they will like batter you with that piece of information. How are we now making people good or bad based on what information that has literally just crossed their path. That's, what's wild to me. Um, I've been called violent for not posting on a certain event this year. And then the next week it was another fucking event.
Ayishat: I think when it comes to people, canceling people, uh, for things that they themselves didn't know a week ago, I think the problem is there. I think we're unable to forgive ourselves for what we hadn't known, you know? And when you can forgive for what you hadn't been, cause I remember even myself, I, at the time [00:22:00] after the whole incident happened with my brother and I started thinking about the world and things around me, a lot more intensely, I felt so guilty for how much time I believed I'd wasted as a young person, just clearly just being a young person and whether you think you should do, but I felt so guilty for being seemingly ignorant and unaware and selfish. And I really couldn't forgive myself for that long for a long time. And I went in the complete other direction and you start to overcompensate. And so that's what I think a lot of people are in the state of overcompensating for things they haven't, that's what it is, not knowing. Even many ethnic minorities who are coming to discuss race, many of them are learning about these issues for the first time themselves. 
Floss: And sort of expected to be an expert. 
Ayishat: Right, exactly. Um, and so let's say, you know, for someone who has a, you know, you, you're black, you've lived in this country, your whole life, you haven't really always been attuned to race. You haven't necessarily [00:23:00] known why you've made certain decisions, why you thought certain people were beautiful why you've wanted your hair style in a certain way. Why you thought people of a certain complexion were more attractive. You then start to realize where all of these things are coming from. You're very angry. You're very angry at yourself. You know what I mean? And maybe the way that people show, yeah, people are angry at themselves, but it comes out into other people. You made me do this, you made me do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so what we're in at the moment I kind of, um, Conceptualize it sometimes like, um, the stages of grief. Um, many of us have come to through the internet, realize the world is not what we thought. Um, and anytime there is a disruption to your framing, um, just like losing your religion. And let's say, you know, you've been Christian all your life and then you start to lose your faith. You can't have any disruption, like. Without some grief, you know, you are grieving literally the old world that you used to know, your idea of maybe idea is huge. Yeah. It's a major thing. And so [00:24:00] in the seven stages of grief, I believe, you know, that there's anger, there's depression is bargaining and all of these sorts of things. And I would say that we're in an angry phase of that at the moment. Um, and, and some of us are at different stages. Um, but I think as you said earlier, it see it's a Rite of passage, you know, to go through this, the problem is we're now doing this on the internet. And so some of these ideas-
Floss: Collateral damage, peoples lives...
Ayishat: yes, exactly. Um, but otherwise, you know, what we're going through right now is what people have always gone through, um, which is coming to realize the world is not what they think, getting quite extreme. Um, and then realizing. I am. I'm much different to what I'm opposing and then suddenly kind of evening out, you know, or trying to, you know, make being less self I'm self-righteous or should I say? 
Floss: Yeah, yeah. I think of overcompensation and the analogy of grief is a perfect explanation for this. I think collective grief is a really interesting thing and I never thought about it in that way, because what's [00:25:00] happening is it's we're collectively uprooting all of this subconscious stuff. We're bringing it into the light and it's ugly. And we're looking for someone to blame because that's such a comfortable place to be in. And yeah, I think, I think it's very easy to point fingers instead of looking at what's because what has been exposed to us is ugly and we don't want to see it.
In what ways do you think that wokeness and identity politics hinder our self-awareness? Because I think the assumption is that it helps us. That was for me initially, I was like, wow, I'm so much more self aware. And if the world around me and of myself and one of these structures, how do you think woken has hindered self-awareness? 
Well because I don't think it encourages people to be self-aware. I think it encourages people to be socially aware. It also hinders self-awareness because it very much encourages one to dwell in [00:26:00] a place of victimhood. And so I think there's a difference between being victimized and victim hood. And so victimized is something, you know, is out of our control, you know? Um, Any of us could have experienced it. And many of us have experienced it. However, victim hood is how you respond to that victimization in mind. It encourages people who are, let's say entrenched in this worldview to take that on, because if you don't take that on, then you're seen as someone with privilege and anyone with privilege in this kind of worldview is inherently bad somehow. You know, we don't distinguish between privilege and achievement, you know? Um, it's just privilege. And anyway, the problem with victim hood is that you can't, you can't take responsibility. You can't truly look at yourself. I think this worldview creates boogeyman, uh, out of certain groups, whether it be men, whether it be white people, whether it be the privileged of whatever kind, you're encouraged to look at those groups with such, um, but such [00:27:00] a magnifying glass that no one ever really applies it to them.
Yeah, it's a quick and easy way to feel like a good person. And I've taken a bit of a step back from talking about politics. I, like I said, so many things happened to me online and I think at one point I was kind of used as a really easy pinata for people to just bash on, um, and call it activism. All of a sudden the cool girl isn't someone who, who has cool clothes she's someone with cool opinions. I don't just need to look perfect. I need to have perfect opinions. And so when that was happening, I was almost this like that, just the perfect pinata, because I was someone who cares. And I think when people see someone who has it so easy to like point fingers at other people, like you saying about the stages of grief, I think it was easy for people to point fingers and I became some kind of collateral damage in a lot of people's grieving. 
Ayishat: I mean, it's, it really is, you know, whoever it's happening to, it's such a shame. I've had so many celebrities and reach out to me and people with influence [00:28:00] and public people who are just kind of terrified by this moment or have been brandished as all these things.
You know, people who once were friends and yeah, it's, it's just really, it's really sad. I think, you know, it's, it's quite easy, I think, to kind of gloss over sometimes, or even to think that this is just something that's happening online. Uh, but it's not, it really is, you know, truly affecting people's lives and people's mental states.
Um, and yet equally, I think I'm, I'm a bit at the same time. I've recently stopped talking about this stuff as much, but I also didn't want to feel as though this is now what I'm locked into having to say, you know, that I can't talk about anything else before I became quite interested in everything happening in progressive culture and online activist culture.
You know, I spoke about all kinds of things, you know, friendship, love, whatever I was observing, you know, I would talk about them. And then so many people started following me who might have just been [00:29:00] there for my observations on what culture. And anytime I wasn't giving that, you know, I would notice like I would lose followers and things like that, and that was fine.
But at the same time I noticed then they realize then, cause I felt something. I was like, oh, should I say something? You know, like, should I now kind of force something out of me about this, but I can't force anything out if I force something out. It's it's not real for one, I will notice it regardless of other people.
I won't feel good in myself, but in that moment of recognizing this inclination to feel like, should I keep these people here? Should I do this? I realize what's happening to people. You know, I realize that, you know, this is what happens. People kind of, um, they're interested in something. Doesn't mean they have to necessarily be intensely, but they've made a comment on something.
It receives a lot of attention. And then you feel that you have to keep doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Until you're now someone that you [00:30:00] never really intended to be. And you know, you're not necessarily qualified even to, or have enough information to talk on all of these things, but, you know, I never wanted to be controlled by my following and what they expect of me. Um, I see it as you know, this is my house. I'm saying what I want to see. You guys turned up. I didn't ask for you to be here.
Floss: I, I totally agree with you. I am. I left an abusive relationship a few years ago. Every time I go through something, I learn, I take the wisdom from it. I turn it into art to help other people. And that for me, feels like a full circle moment for me. Um, and I started talking about breakups. And this was about three years ago. And then I became known as like the girl for breakups and everyone was, and I just can't shake that off. Now. I don't want to talk about men. I don't date men anymore. So it's like, yeah, I kind of took a backseat from talking about that kind of stuff because it became the thing that people came to me for, even if I didn't want to talk about it. So I totally understand the need to yeah. Not be boxed in again, by something that you spoke [00:31:00] about just a season in your life.
Ayishat: Exactly. And I think maybe. The biggest challenges for us in this digital era is to resist what I often call like our zombification or I digital the digitalization of our souls. And, uh, and what I mean by that is. Where we're so kind of, you know, I know so many people who, and maybe for good reason, but I think we can resist it who feel that they have to post every day who feel like they must be seen with these people who feel like, you know, they're not commenting on this or that, or if they haven't got this public opinion on this or that, then that's going to maybe block some opportunity or make them be seen as a bad person.
And I, again, I think this is kind of a drawing us further away from our own humanity. Um, and when we're drawn away from our own humanity, it's harder to see it in other people, which is why I think we have this era of, uh, progressive cruelty. Um, and so, yeah, I think it's really [00:32:00] important to, yeah. I think one has to be very, uh, cautious with not just how they use the internet, but how the internet is using them.
And they have to be very honest about that. 
Floss: I think I saw something recently, some [inaudible] explaining about how, if you look at an ad or a billboard, it's not as harmful as looking at an ad on Instagram because the ad is looking back at you. And it just gave me goosebumps when I heard it. And I was like, fuck, it's so true because it's analyzing you.
It's how long have you spending on the ad? They'll give you another one. If it's quick, then it'll give you like the opposite and it gives you content that it knows we'll fly you up, um, because it's going to keep engaged and then that's how they paid. So, yeah, I think it is really weird that um, the internet can use you as well.
We don't think of that because we're the ones who choose to pick it up, but all we really, because it's an instinct now. 
Ayishat: And then if you think about it, like, so you're following so many people who are, let's say advocates for this or that issue. They have an audience that they want to keep satisfied or feed content to.
They're only going to seek [00:33:00] out this and that kind of information, you know? And so you, as the follower, you're getting, you're just kind of seeped in this world constantly where you're being fed. Um, just yeah, a lot of stuff that's outreaching and it kind of distorts your view of the world and other people.
Um, and it's not quite like that, you know? Um, so yeah, I think it very much puts us all. In, um, a warped state of reality to some degree.
Floss: I was afraid of not being quite up on all of these world events, because if I'm not angry, then I'm not paying attention. And that to me was frightening because that meant that I was like a bad person. If I didn't know all the, all the events that were going on in the world and it's human beings are not meant to know the thousands of traumatic events that are going on around the planet.
We're not supposed to be carrying around this metaphorical baggage, like lugging these suitcases around with us about all the different horrific, oppressive things that [00:34:00] happening in different countries. And yet if you don't post them on all of them on social media, The worst person on the planet. It just doesn't, it just doesn't make sense 
Ayishat: yeah. So I think in that sense, you know, it's also no wonder that we've been described to be living in a mental health crisis, you know, because so much of, uh, our progressive culture encourages, um, habits that I would say a completely corrosive to the mind, like being perpetually angry, like feeling that we have to kind of know about everything going on in the world at the time.
All of these really sort of this, you know, black and white thinking, all of these kind of leads to like a lot of mental unwellness and then the things that may lead to some mental stability, true empathy, not selective pity or selective sympathy for your group. So, okay, so real empathy, not selective or selective sympathy for one group.
The word empathy is just to put yourself in [00:35:00] someone else's shoes. It doesn't say the shoes of the underprivileged or the shoes of this [inaudible] anyone's shoes, you know, but like we only feel that we can do that to people who we perceive as having less than us, or we perceive as maybe being less well-off than us.
And so we don't actually practice real empathy. We practice often selective pity and selective sympathy at best. And we don't encourage resilience because anyone who presents themselves. I remember one time actually, when someone did call me out online, I can't remember what the tweet was. It was fairly innocuous in my opinion, it was something like once you kind of let go of the fixation with desirability and much in your life changes, especially your outlook, even politically. Um, and it was up for a few days. And then maybe like four days later, this guy was like you're so privileged and overeducated and over here though, like, um, both things, um, both things that I'm not actually, but even that [00:36:00] it was, it was funny that the implication is like, for me to be a, a woman and black and, and saying these things, and also with my sexuality, that I, the only way that I could have come to this is if I've, you know, had a silver spoon, you know, which is really condescending. Um, and potentially, you know, I don't throw around this word, but it's racialized because I don't know if people would assume I'm overeducated. If I was, you know, uh, of a different race, but anyways, I was saying something that was very much kind of to the idea of, you know, that we can actually, you know-
Floss: Change our lives!
Ayishat: Yeah right [inaudible] right, right. And it was really offensive to someone on the left and I thought, wow, this is, um, this is bizarre. So yeah, in that sense, we very much do encourage the people that we want to help, um, to stay in this perpetual state of like, Yeah. And, and if you're not miserable, if you're not angry, then yeah.
You're not paying attention. And that you're all of these things. It's again, I find it very [00:37:00] manipulative and, uh, very inhumane. It's a very inhumane human rights project.
Floss: okay. So I've actually got some questions from my audience to ask you now, um, let's start with this one. I don't know how to let other people have opinions anymore. I find errors in everything, and I can't stop. How do I get myself out of this? 
Ayishat: Um, by being more curious than critical, ask them why, ask them why they have these opinions.
And I think once you start to ask why, and you start to build a picture, like learn to kind of be patient, I think. I think you'll then, uh, realize that people aren't necessarily trying to be evil. Um, most people's opinions are formed by their own negative experiences, their own heart things that most people can relate to.
Floss: Um, another question from someone from my Instagram following, how do we decide what appropriate accountability [00:38:00] is?. 
Ayishat: I mean, I I'd love to know. Yeah. Because yeah, because sometimes I think accountability is, is the progressive way of, of, of bullying. You know? Like we like the word accountability.
Yeah. Yeah. But we don't like responsibility, but don't like the word responsibility very much, but we love the word accountability because accountability is what we do to other people responsibilities what we have to take for ourselves, you know? But we, but under the social media law accountability is used as a way to harass people easily.
But I think if we were to encourage, you know, personal responsibility, then we wouldn't feel like we have to make so many people accountable, you know? Like, so yeah. Even if someone does something that I think is terrible or awful, um, I just don't know if it's my business to. Make them know how kind of upset I am. There's an entitlement. I think, you know, there's a real entitlement that the internet gives us in feeling like it's our responsibility to make others accountable. 
As if we, you know, we don't have a [00:39:00] law-
Floss: Like we're the police that we're trying to also abolish we're trying to also abolish. 
Exactly. Yeah. I just think, you know, like woke culture is just being a snitch, essentially in many ways, like we're just snitching on each other constantly. 
I hate the phrase hold accountable now, it's been so many, it's been used so many times in, where it's just not even applicable and you don't even know that you've done something wrong and it's like, what is also perceived as wrong? I went to a party recently where a guest was attending, who the internet deemed problematic. And I received hundreds of comments on a post of people telling me that I need to be accountable. 
Ayishat: And what does that mean? So, cause the thing is 
Floss: Do you want me to publicly also shamed this person that's not happening. That's not happening. Do you want me to issue an apology for going to a party where I didn't know this person was attending?
I didn't even see them at the party. Didn't even what is, what, what are we asking for me? 
Ayishat: And the apology is never enough. 
Floss: Too little too late. Your silence on the map for those 12 hours was violence. Um, on, onto the next one, and then [00:40:00] they'll find something new. And obviously I've had, I've heard it described online, um, as like the woke mob. Okay. So Ayishat, just to round up the interview, I want to know how you managed to deal with social . Media. What are some boundaries that you have in place with your time spent on social media, even if that's just what you post and what you don't post. 
Ayishat: I always have this thing in mind when it comes to social media, which is why.
I never allow myself to get drawn into any unnecessary conflict or argument. Um, I always say have something to share rather than something to prove, you know? And I feel like I would only get offended let's say if people don't like something I say, or feel like I have to say something back. If someone disagrees, if I have something to prove, you know, I don't have anything to prove.
I just have something to share. So that's one. I tried to keep that in mind and how I choose people to look at. So I would never just scroll my feed. I'm quite sensitive. I see it almost like I would never want to kind of like walk through like a [00:41:00] hall of billboards, you know, just like a row of them. And that's kind of what scrolling the feed feels like, so like if I I'm-
Floss: You don't know what's going to come. 
Ayishat: Exactly. Yeah. And I don't know how it's going to make me feel. So it was more like, if I'm just interested, if I think to myself, oh wait, I haven't seen what Florence has been doing for a while. I'll just check on you, you know? Um, and I'll click your name in, I won't, I won't generally scroll.
Um, and I use it often. And let's say Twitter in particular, I use it more as a search engine, so I might have a thought about something and I want to see how many other people have thought. So I might just put in a key, a few key words from my thought, you know, and just see what other people are saying.
But yeah, I just, um, I-
Floss: You try to control what you can see.
Ayishat: I can try to very much control what I consume I often just post and leave. I often think that's the healthiest way to use it. Just post and leave because once you kind of get stuck in the who's watching it, who's looking at it. What are they saying?
It just takes a lot of time as well. Um, and time [00:42:00] is, yeah, I guess the most valuable resources I believe that we have, we all think about our diets these days. You know what we're eating and everyone's become super conscious. I mean, very much must think about our media diet, what we're allowing our minds to see. Don't feed it. Just anything. Okay. Yeah. Don't feed your mind. Just anything you should be very selective about, uh, or at least very cautious about when and how and why you're doing it. 
Floss: Wow. That was incredible. I'm so glad that I got to have spoken to Ayishat. I've wanted to interview her for so long. I took a lot from that conversation with her.
Especially what she was saying about being curious, as opposed to being critical of people. What I use chef displays so wonderfully is how to have empathy with boundaries, how to hold your own in a world that wants you to have the same opinions as everybody else. Or you might face. We need more people like Ayishat, who encouraged us to [00:43:00] think for ourselves and say, what's on my mind.
So, yeah. Please follow Ayishat on social media, Ayishat Akanbi on Instagram. That's how handle, I think she's a breath of fucking fresh air. And I know that, that seems just so overused, but that really that's what it felt like seeing in the room with. Thank you so much to Ayishat and thank you all for listening. Next week, I'll be talking about something that is so fascinating to me, the Internet's attention economy and how big tech is designed to keep us scrolling with former Google employee turned leading tech philosopher, James Williams.
And if you've enjoyed today's episode, don't forget, I'll be answering even more of your questions on the bonus episodes that are available to subscribers of apple podcasts. You can ask me absolutely anything. If you want your question answered by me, you can drop me a text or a voicemail on WhatsApp on plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5.[00:44:00] 
And a massive thank you to the fucking incredible black honey who composed the original theme music for my podcast. You can find them on Instagram app, black honey, UK, and check out their latest album called written and directed. To keep yourself updated with all the latest episodes as they drop. You can follow exactly on apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
And please take the time to rate us wherever you listen to your podcasts and give us a review. It really does help people to find us and make sure that the people who need. Compensations do this is a podcast from something else. My producer is Millie Chowles. My assistant producer is Ella McLeod, executive producer is Callie Maille, production coordinator is Lily Hambly, and I want to give a special thanks to our engineers, Jay Beale, Josh Gibbs, and mixing engineer, Gulli Lawrence Tickell, and additional production from Chris Skinner and Teddy Riley.