EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 14: BODY IMAGE: Fat Liberation with Sofie Hagen

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello. Thank you so much for listening to Exactly with me Florence Given. I'm so happy that you're here to join me on my podcast. As regular listeners will know throughout this podcast, I'm exploring five big themes from multiple different angles, sex, feminism, social media relationships. And today is part two of body image.
I'm hugely honored, that the absolutely incredible and hilarious Sofie Hagen is with me today to talk about fat liberation. In the fourth part of each mini season, we'll be taking questions from you, the listeners. Myself, and an expert will be answering all of the dilemmas that you want advice on. So if you have a question or you need advice relating to body image, get in touch with our podcast. WhatsApp number, the number is plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5.
I'm so excited to have Sofie Hagen on the podcast. As my guest today, [00:01:00] exploring the subject. Sofie's a comedian who's hilarious and funny and super fucking smart. Sofie talks about fat liberation rather than body positivity on their Instagram. So I'm really interested to hear more about this from Sofie and what they feel is the difference between those two movements.
Last year, Sophie published their debut book 'Happy Fat': taking up space in a world that wants to shrink you. In their book Sofie dispels myths about health and fatness and they detail some of the horrific discrimination that they've experienced due to their fatness. At the heart of the book is the idea that fat phobia is a product of capitalism that we are groomed to hate our bodies, to keep us buying into the multimillion pound diet industry.
And of course fatphobia is also a product of the patriarchy, which demands that women show up thin pretty and hairless, or otherwise pay the price. Today's episode is so important to me because not only am I fascinated with Sofie's work, their opinions and what they have to say, but because I know body image is still one of the biggest hurdles that we come across in feminism and something that we still individually struggle with daily.
It's so [00:02:00] easy to tell your mate that she looks beautiful no matter what, and that we should love our bodies at any size, but that still doesn't change the fact that different bodies are treated differently in our society and the bigger bodies experience discrimination and disrespect from people in all facets of life.
What I love about Sofie's work is that they focus less on loving what you look like and more on the fact that you deserve the same respect and humanity, whatever you look like. And however you feel about your body. So if you're so much more focused on the systemic changes that need to take place for this to happen.
And I don't have a bloody clue how to go about that. So I'm so excited to interview them, stay and find out. 
So Sofie, today I'm going to be reading out five of my quick five questions. I ask all of my guests. These just say the first thing that comes to your mind. It could be a word, a sentence, just don't try to think too much about it.
It's way to break the ice. Before we get into the toughest subjects that we're going to be talking about. Okay. Okay. I'll try. So question number one. What's one thing that sets your soul on fire? 
Sofie Hagen: [00:03:00] Psychology therapy, psychology. Anything to do with the mind. 
Floss: Okay. Amazing. So like understanding people. And facts about psychology, all that kind of, yeah.
Okay, cool. Okay. Next question. If you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life, a look that would define you forever. What would the outfit be?
Sofie Hagen: Oh, something comfortable. Okay. Something that's easy to slip in and out of. Something soft, like a blanket with a hole in it for your head? Yeah, I think so. I think there are all sorts of words for them, those people, I think that sums me up. 
Floss: Okay. Uh, okay. Question number three. What's something that people frequently misunderstand about you.
Sofie Hagen: I think people think that I'm very nice. Okay. Like, [00:04:00] like people have this idea that I, that I'm sort of like maternal and I'm not going to say weak, but sort of insecure, insecure. And so like a pleaser and no, and I'm not, that's so interesting that you have that perception because I followed you on social media for a little while and I do not have that perception.
I'm really glad 
Floss: I really did not use it. You seem, you seem very assertive with like how you use your space.. 
Sofie Hagen: I think people project, right? So they see me being fat and I can literally be all fat with my stomach out, posting the caption. That's like, oh, I'm so hot and people would go, no, you're beautiful. Don't say that about yourself.
And like, what? 
Floss: Sorry, why did you not just read? What I said? Okay, another question. Finish this sentence. I'm still a work in progress when it comes to 
Sofie Hagen: everything. I feel like that's too easy of an answer. Like everything, everything. Yeah. Like, am I [00:05:00] finished in any capacity? No. No. 
Floss: So I love that. I love that great answer.
Sofie Hagen: And the last question, when was the last time you majorly cringed at yourself yesterday? I had a professional influencer photographer come and take photos, proper influencer photos. 
Floss: Okay. 
Sofie Hagen: And there was a lot of like, carry this empty coffee, no sorta thing. Pretend you're drinking this coffee thing. And I was, I was just in my head trying to figure out how I could live with myself.
Floss: Okay. Let's get straight into it. Sofie, can you please explain what the difference is between the body positivity movement and the fat acceptance movement? 
Sofie Hagen: In short, very simplified, body positivity, the essence of [00:06:00] that is love your body, right? You should love your body and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. That's a nice thing. A nice message. Fat liberation or fat acceptance is 'they should never have taught us to hate our bodies. We need to stop them from teaching us to hate our bodies. So by them, of course, I mean, patriarchy, society, companies advertising. So where body positivity is a very nice thing. I love that.
I love my body, you know, but that is very, you know, in a vacuum, very personal, very individual. It took me what five years to learn how to properly love my body after a lifetime of hating it. That's a lot of work and to do that individually for every single person in the world. And for some people it's just not possible, you know, for people who are fatter than me, for people who live in otherwise marginalized bodies, it's just not, it's not an easy thing to do, but what we can do. [00:07:00] Again, not easily, but what we can do and what we should do is focus on the people who actually make us feel bad about ourselves. That liberation doesn't really care about how you feel about yourself. That's not the point. The point is, Hey, let's actually have rights. You know, like let's stop medical discrimination, let's stop, you know, like fat people earn less money. They're hired less. They are treated really badly. There's less accessibility. There are so many things structurally that is discriminatory against fat people. And that's what we want to tackle rather than hug your curves, because I can hug my curves and love my body as much as possible, but I still can't fly anywhere now because I'm too fat for the plane seats.
So I can't go into a plane and be like, but I love myself sure. You know, get off the plane. Yeah. 
Floss: Yeah. I feel, I feel like when we talk about a lot of systems of oppression, whether it's sexism or racism, fatphobia transplant. There are two ways of dealing [00:08:00] with the issue. And I feel like it, it depends on how maybe how much power you feel you have to change these things. And I think it does take a lot of maybe the foresight. Isn't the word, a lot of planning. And like you said, it's not easy and it takes a lot of energy to even think about these things. Not existing. 
Sofie Hagen: It's really hard as well. And it's hard for people to accept that everything that we all grew up learning is wrong. When I wrote about it in my book, I use the Truman the show, the film, as an example of when Truman realizes that the whole world around him is fake. Like that huge moment of hang on. So my higher life, I've based my worth on how I look. And now you're telling me that it's okay to be fat. Like that is it's easier to just accept that fat is bad, thinness good.
And that is easy. It's easier than to, you have to start rewiring your brain and all these kinds of ways. And you see people react the same way with gender. [00:09:00] You know, boys like blue and they have penises and girls wear pink dresses and they have, you know, people can't really mix it in their heads. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
And I think that's, what's really tricky for people is you have to uproot your entire belief system that you've. Taught by all the people you trust to throughout your entire life. And then suddenly someone's on the internet saying, oh no, everything's fake. You don't have any answers. There's no boxes.
Like people are scared. So, so scared of that, '
Floss: cause we don't just put trust into the people who tell us these narratives. We put trust into the institutions that we learn, this things in school. We're taught not to talk back, not answer back, not ask questions. And I think. You know, people like yourself speaking up about this online.
I imagine you do get backlash full being that person, almost like the scapegoat. We're talking about a lot about tradition right now, and things being hard to challenge because they are so rooted in [00:10:00] everything books, church, families, systems, everything. With the word fat now that's something that a lot of people feel uncomfortable with because they were called it at school.
They were bullied because they were. Can you talk a little bit about the word fat and why you choose to use it because it's very intentional. 
Sofie Hagen: Yeah, definitely. There is what is politically or socio-politically or ethically correct. Right. And then there's reality of what we can actually do. So fat is not a bad word. It's a descriptive word. The only way you would, um, you could argue that it was a bad word would be if you thought that being fat was a bad thing, that is sort of the emotion less way of looking at it. Right. It's a descriptive word. There's nothing wrong with it. It's like, you know, calling something gay. Why would you say that if you don't think being gay is bad, right? It's like any other word that has been used as a slur [00:11:00] and then you realize, no, actually, you know, this is an absolutely fine, fine thing to be. There's that aspect. And so, yes, I would say if I was to give you the answer as a fat liberation person as a, as an activist, as a fat person, I would say yes, absolutely always use the word fat. Then there's the human side where fat for so many people, the majority of people fat is the worst thing imaginable. It's the worst thing you can possibly be. It's it's something that for people mean. They can not be loved. They cannot be beautiful. They cannot be happy. They can never feel joy. They don't deserve a partner.They won't get their Mother's love. And we also have to remember that. And I think the sort of bottom line of everything to do with social politics and feminism and [00:12:00] all of that. You can never always do the right thing. You know, you're standing in front of a person who is fat. You don't know their relationship with the word. For some reason you need to describe them. What are you going to do? Are you going to do what's ethically correct? Are you going to take the person's feelings into consideration and know that there might be a history with the word? You can't really be certain that what you're going to do is the right thing.
And that's some, some, some part of doing the right thing and being a person who wants to keep trying to do the right thing is understanding that you will be in situations where you're going to fuck up because you can't always make the right decision. Do you know what I mean? So I would say you could always argue that.
Well, I don't see fat as being a, a bad thing. You know, that is why I use it because you could also be standing in front of me and then say overweight. And I'd be like, that is, that's an actual discriminatory word because within the word overweight is [00:13:00] well over what weight, what is normal weight? What's underweight. And obese is a medicalized word for fat, which is horrific and, you know, has caused so much medical discrimination against fat people. And I would be called fat over any other word, like voluptuous oh yeah. Or, you know, all these words that people are trying to say instead of fat, but I also know for other people, they just want to.
A bit chubby or BBW or whatever it is. 
Floss: Is that because do those words make you feel more uncomfortable because it's like they're tiptoeing around saying fat. 
Sofie Hagen: Yeah. Yeah. Because within the reluctance to say that I am fat is the fact that you are uncomfortable with me being this size. And I think as fat people we can pick up on that very easily.
We can sense when, especially thin people [00:14:00] almost that's to hyperventilate. And like, oh no. Oh, um, uh, no, no, you can, you can wear my t-shirt. I'm like, no, I can't. Yeah, you, you clean beautiful. You're beautiful. You have pretty eyes. It's just like this panic that just arises and you're like, oh, this is really hard for you.
Isn't it? I think it's funny by now, but I'm also very far into the journey. 
Floss: Of course. What other, I'm going to say. Well-meaning things. One intentioned things to people do to try and skirt around the issue. Of not wanting to say fat, that that's the thing is that someone says I'm fat and then someone goes, no, you're not, no, you're not. You're beautiful. All of these kinds of things. Are there any other things that people do that are almost like that? Well, intentioned, but micro aggressive way. 
Sofie Hagen: Okay. I think people just want to know that it's temporary. I got some other things like, yeah, but you're doing something about it. Or, they want to suggest things like, oh, you're fat. Well, I know this diet and like, have you tried this? Oh, you [00:15:00] know what you should do. You should just, um, oh my exercise more. 
Floss: Yeah, how you're describing misses, like being single like this. Okay. But I have this guy that I could set you up with. That same energy of like getting you out of the current state that it's depressing and not nice.
Sofie Hagen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen, oh, you'll meet someone. Oh, I wasn't intending on meeting someone, so I'm fine. Yeah. Oh, they say the worst one is, oh, it's not that bad. Oh, you're not that fat. Which is like, throwing just other fat people under the bus. It's like, oh, well, at least you don't look like that guy. And then it's like, what's wrong with that guy?
Like, it feels gaslighting often when, cause people just don't want, they don't even want to talk about it. They don't want you to talk about it. They don't want you to mention it. They don't want it to be a thing. And I think being fat, there's so much of being careful with thin people's feelings. And saying like, you know, if, if we said it's, uh, sitting in a cafe and [00:16:00] want to end this chairs have armrests and I can't fit into it, I don't care.
I'm just like, Hey, can I have another chair? Okay. Thank you. And then I sit on that, but the tension. Around that table of people like, like, oh, they can't look at me. They don't know what to say. They just wish it would go away. So they would rather just that it doesn't exist. So the best thing you can do as a fat person is just pretend, it's not a thing, you know?
So how many of us, how many of us fat people have gone with our thin friends, into a clothing store where we know we can't fit into anything, but we're trying on the scarves and the earrings. And all the accessories to be like, don't worry, it's fine. I'll just, I'll just buy four more scarves. I don't need actual clothing.
So it's that constant like? Oh, so sorry that I make you uncomfortable thing. 
Floss: No, you're so right. This tension that you're speaking of, I know exactly what you talking about. Um, I remember I first probably experienced [00:17:00] it a few years ago. Um, I was buying a pair of trousers and my friends said, I love them. Why did you get them?
I knew they didn't do them in her size. And I panicked. I remember feeling like, do I tell her, or do I not? Because then you're acknowledging the fatness. And then I remember just said, but they don't do them in your size. And then she was like, great, like, you know, fantastic. Um, and then I remember feeling that thing of. What do I do? Do I, where's the responsibility here? What do I, should I stop shopping at this place? And then it was all of these questions and that kind of, that, that panic, that unspoken thing that she is used to in every area of her life. 
Sofie Hagen: I mean, and that goes across every topic, right? It's the, when you realize your own privilege, I think in terms of things that are painful for fat people, female friendships, or, you know, non-binary queer friendships.
It's one of the places where it can get really [00:18:00] painful, like being the fat friend, like the, the conventionally attractive woman, CIS woman, like the white thin feminine. Like you, you are the problem. You are the problem. I would happily go out for coffee with you for dinner with you. I would never go to a nightclub with you. Not just because I would never go to a nightclub period because no, thank you. But the level of being, and feeling ignored and invisible when you are with your thin friend, especially if you're like young and you know, you're 18 or you're in your early twenties and, and you know, your thin friend doesn't mean this to be happening.
You know, she thinks you're beautiful. Like you're her friend. Like she thinks you're amazing. Like why wouldn't all men want to be with you? But they also don't see it. And I, for so many years I would have my thin friends say, it's all [00:19:00] about the energy. Cause like you are beautiful. It's all the energy. Like, you can just sense that you don't like yourself. So if you just like have more confidence in you, if you just see more happy or whatever it was. So I would try that so hard, like just go into a room and be like so smiley and so confident and still it wouldn't work. And when I realized that it was never going to work because it had nothing to do with smiling or energy, that was such a relief, but telling my friend that made her devastated because she was like, oh, because then she had to realize that, oh, actually she could just sit there and be pouty face in wearing a black plastic bag. And she'd still get the attention that I wouldn't get. 
Floss: This is the kind of stuff that people need to hear. I think that, that was like you said, you're super honest. And that was really good for me too. 
Sofie Hagen: The best thing that I could wish for, for fat people is to have other fat friends, because there is a thing where [00:20:00] being, being with other fat people, it's the only place where you can actually talk about these things and be fully understood.
Floss: I spoke, um, with a trans woman on this podcast. And she spoke about how trans women are most likely to stay in abusive relationships longer because of this fear of, but who will be there after this person. I talk a lot about, um, settling for less than you deserve, but it's a lot easier for me to say as someone who is thin.
Sofie Hagen: I don't think I'll ever get tired of hearing thin people say that like, that's my king. Is this hearing things say they have it easy. I'm just like, yeah, go on. Like my thin friend, she has no clue. And she'll, she'll be like, oh, what do you do when you just have too many conversations going on tinder? Like how do you even choose?
I'm like, yeah, A horrible person and I don't want to [00:21:00] speak to you. It's really hard to be fat and to know the discrimination around fatness. And you know, a lot of us will have tried the, you know, being the secret, you know, don't tell, don't tell anyone we were together, you know, can you leave out the back?
Like all those things? Cause it's not that people don't want to have sex with us. It's not that people don't want to date us it's that it's just unacceptable in the eyes of society. And it's embarrassing for them or you know, they, they think that it's about them somehow reflects onto them. And it's always the more insecure he is, the less he wants to be seen as someone who's with you.
So it's really hard to both know all of that. And then also say, but I want what I deserve, which is something that feels really good. And someone that I really love because yeah, that thought creeps into your head of like, well, who else. You know, what are the odds that I'll find someone else who wants me? I would never say to someone, oh, that's okay. You'll find [00:22:00] someone because it's hard. It is hard. I don't think it's impossible. I think there are loads of fat friends you have amazing partners, you know, and I also know a lot of thin people who don't have any partners, so like it's not like that, but I also see how hard it is. And also the fear. A lot of it is. Like, is this a joke because of the amount of times you've kissed someone and then they start laughing and then you look in the corner and the friends are all laughing and oh, this whole thing was a fun thing of who can get the fat person to kiss them or whatever. So you just end up not trusting them and going, what's your problem though? What do you want from this? What like I'm so suspicious of anyone who flirts with me. I'm like, what, what is wrong with you? Where's your wife what's happening? 
Floss: Wow. I mean, I'm laughing because you're funny, but that's definitely not funny!
Um, wow. Yeah. I can't imagine the impact that that would have on yourself view growing up and then into adult life as well. [00:23:00] Anyone could say to someone, but it's just like a mindset thing. It's just how blah, blah, blah. But if you have like a track record lived experience of this constantly happening to you, uh, then yeah, I understand why you say that it feels a bit gaslighting when thin people, we just pretend like it's not a thing. And we're just going to ignore that you have to sit over there because you're fat on the plane. And we're just going to ignore that you need to get yourself a new chair in the restaurant. 
Sofie Hagen: I mean, I feel like it's within the last, I don't know, four or five years, I have at least become aware of people.
Like people like you, the thing you're talking about about, you know, don't settle, don't settle. You have to serve the best. And also we don't need anyone. We are fine when we're single. And I still find that to be very empowering. Like, I still need to hear it. I can then filter in, you know, the stuff that needs to be filtered in my head of like, yeah, but also still, I understand if people feel like it's better to settle and be less happy in a relationship because for them, it feels better than being [00:24:00] alone.
I've been there at some point in my life. I don't necessarily think it's necessary, but then again, that's me coming from a very privileged point of view of I've been in therapy my whole life. I have been able to work on my co-dependency issues and my abandonment issues, my commitment issues. So I'm working towards a life where I never feel like I need anyone in a health way, but I also know that therapy is not the most accessible thing as well.
So for some people that might be the only way they feel they can survive. And that's also just an uncomfortable truth that we also have to acknowledge. Oh, it's so hard. Isn't it? 
Floss: For sure.. I, I felt, well. I feel like just hearing you speak about that, then, you know, you were saying, you understand why people set up.
I understand why people sell for less as well, because I've been in that situation where I'd basically just got so frightened of being a bad woman. If I left him and I couldn't fix him, and if I couldn't fix him, then that was like a reflection on me as a person. And then one day he called me [00:25:00] a bitch. I imagined if I had like a daughter and she'd seen him call me, bitch, something about the world was so piercing.
It burst my bubble. I kicked him out. And then I began this journey. Right. And I feel like for me, it's all about encouraging other people to see that there is another way and that there are these steps you can take and I'm still learning still growing, still going to therapy, still doing this whole podcast is about me learning and taking my audience along with me.
And I just feel like what we do with our work is all about bringing people, showing them a different perspective and shining a light on areas in their life that they might not have seen before, um, to show them that there is a different way of living. 
Sofie Hagen: And I think so, going back to the very first question you asked me about what I was passionate about being therapy and stuff about the mind.
I also really want to talk about how, because I also think there's a whole part of social media. That's people. You [00:26:00] can also live like this, or you can also feel like this, or you can do this, but you're missing that part of how, you know, what do I just get a man to call me bitch? And then I love myself? I really want to put out some actual steps that people can take, you know, in my book, I don't remember how many, 10, 10 things you can do to learn to love yourself. And there are actual things you can do. You know, things you can sit down and write, write this list or say this to yourself in the mirror or change this about the way you live. 
Floss: Like accountable action.
Sofie Hagen: Yeah. Like I've had so many people be furious about the body positivity movement, because you've gone from feeling like shit that they can't lose weight. And now they feel like shit because they can't love themselves. So it's just another way of feeling like they're not enough. So you want to say to people, okay, this is how we can make it more sort of down to earth. Let's sit down and do this. 
Floss: Yeah. I think tangible actions are really important [00:27:00] because a lot of the stuff that we see on social media is. Hashtag love yourself. Self-love kind of vibe. That's actually why I started doing my illustrations a few years ago. I grew up in Plymouth and I'm seeing all of this stuff and I was like, I can see what it's trying to do, but it's absolutely failing.
It makes no one feel fucking good about themselves. Um, so I started making these really blunt, cutthroat to the point messages that are quite provocative because I want people to like kick them and inspire them into action. And I think that's really important. 
Sofie Hagen: It's so important. It's so important. It's also important just to hear people say the things like I remember the first time I saw someone on social media say men are trash.
Oh, I think I understood it in such a deep level because it wasn't as much about which I know that especially men really want to make it about, you know, oh, so you are saying that scientifically statistically, every single man is made of garbage when actually they are made of skin, whatever, where it wasn't even that it was just the feeling.
Oh, someone's saying it out loud [00:28:00] and realizing that also other people see that there's probably a bit of a problem as well. And so much of it is just hearing someone else say, Hmm, actually, you know what? Fuck this.
Floss: Uh, I really want to talk about your comedy. Sophie. You said that you no longer make herself the punchline in your comedy. Can you talk about that and that decision and how you came to that decision? 
Sofie Hagen: I used to like the jokes would be, yeah, I know. You know, I'm fat, it's ugly, it's lazy, I eat a lot, blah, blah, blah, all the time too.
So sort of play on the stereotypes that people were already thinking. I have not done that for a long, long time. 'cause I was, I was called out before I even knew what that was by a body activist and Denmark before I even knew what [00:29:00] that was before I even really knew what the patriarchy was. She clocked that I was doing this and I was going on stage every night saying these things.
And she was just like, yeah, don't do that. That's that's ridiculous. And then I just ended up having a million questions, like, wait, why? Like, is it an option to not hate your fat body? And she opened my mind. Like I was literally saying like, but w what's what's that? And she was like, what's what? You said, capitalism, what is capitalism?
And she was like, wow. She taught me like all the words and all the things, and my mind was blown. And so over her again, she came at it with a very fat liberation angle. She wasn't like, oh, I don't like hearing you say bad things about your body on stage. She was like, stop doing that because you're like helping, helping the patriarchy tear down all the fat people in your audience. Shut up. And then I shut up for a few years, you know, I didn't do, oh my God. I did the most problematic material. I was so problematic without knowing [00:30:00] what I was doing. And then I started listening, Googling feminism, a lot, trying to learn as much as I possibly could before I dare to say anything. And then I started talking about fatness in a positive way and yeah, that was a bit of a game changer.
It's not that it wasn't as funny, but people were just not used to hearing it. So they didn't really understand what the joke was because I was talking about it in such a matter of fact kind of way. Like if I got, if I came out and I said, yeah, so obviously, as you can tell, my skin is blue. Like they would be like, wait, what?
What's happening here? And that's how they felt like. W so you S you say you don't hate your body. Where's the punchline. When are you going to say, of course I do. So that it took a while for people to understand what was happening. Yeah. 
Floss: That's, that's really interesting. Um, when can someone call fat, and actually it'd be a descriptor and not a self-deprecating [00:31:00] like me going, oh, I'm so fat today. You know, w w where's the where's, where's the, where's the line there, because I would obviously never call myself fat, but there are, you know, some people do and then not. So where is, is there like a, a size or a-
Sofie Hagen: so there's obviously of course, nothing official, cause it's not, you know, but the general thing would be when, if you can buy, if you can go in to all shops on a high street and fit into the bigger size you're not fat. Um, if you can only buy clothing online, you're fat, then there's like anything in the middle where you can buy in some places, but you also sometimes need to go online. You're a small fat.
Right. 
If you can just about buy clothing online, but not on all the websites, like only a select few. You're a super [00:32:00] fat that's where I'm at. So I'm like a size a 28 30 ish, sometimes 32. So that means I'm at the very high end of online plus size shops. So I can only shop on like a few websites then if you can't, uh, shop on any website, And you sort of mostly will need to get your clothing, especially made or go into specialist shops. I have a tailored, you are in, I love this word, infinity, infinnifat infinity, infinity, infinity fat. So I believe that I went from being fat to super fat when I stopped being able to fit in just one plane seat. And when I realize that there was clothing on the most basic, like ASOS clothing in their curve range that I couldn't fit into, I was like, okay, now I've taken the step up. Like, when I need, I need special seats in the theater. Otherwise I can't go because [00:33:00] it will just hurt so much or I can't even physically fit into it so that I went into super fat. 
Floss: So that was like, you had an experience that you were like, okay, there's more, there's literally physically more discrimination the further up the scale is you said you called it a scale. Um, you got, yeah. 
Sofie Hagen: Yeah. The accessibility, the, how easy is it to live and to go out in the world? And what do you now need to do? You know, I can't just say to, you know, friends who were like, let's go to the movies. I have to go and make sure I can fit into the cinema seats and flights and stuff. I need to book, and that's always hell or-
Floss: this is a lot of preparation. 
Sofie Hagen: Oh, yeah. So much. 
Floss: You talk a lot about curating your social media, um, in a profile way so that you aren't bombarded with all of these narratives that make you feel shit about yourself. Um, I was wondering if you have any accounts that you could recommend that you love, accounts or books that someone listening right now could take away and go follow.[00:34:00] 
Sofie Hagen: Yes. So you definitely want to follow your fat friend. YRFatFriend. Aubrey Gordon. She's amazing. She also has a podcast I severely recommend you, I demand that you listen to called making space, with Michael Hobbes, which is about just debunking diet, bullshit and wellness bullshit. It's such a good podcast.
Floss: I love your fat friend. Oh, she is the best, she's the best, um, for if you want, like the very basics, like if all of this has been like, what the fuck are you talking about? Get things no one will tell fat girls by Jess baker as a book. If you're feeling a bit like, Hmm, I don't know. And you are white. Uh, you have to read fearing the black body by Sabrina Springs and you want to read belly of the beast by Deshawn L Harrison, which are both about how fatphobia actually stems in [00:35:00] racism, which is a real good way to get thin white people to realize that. Cause that's, that's where you can really hit them. They're like, oh, the fat phobias. Okay. Yeah, but you don't want to be racist. Do you, so read these books.
Going into the listener questions now. Okay. So, uh, the first question. How do I build up my confidence as a fat person after years of bullying? 
Sofie Hagen: I would almost divide it into two. I would say, how do I overcome having been bullied? Because that is you having been attacked. Like you've been under attack. That's what bullying is, you're being attacked. And when you're under attack, your whole nervous system shuts down and you were being put into fight flight mode. Which means that, you know, you're more anxious. You develop all these trauma reactions which could be everything from anxiety to OCD, to whatever else comes out, depression. And there is overcoming that and like teaching your nervous system that you are safe now and that you, uh, an adult [00:36:00] and that's, that's hard work. And that's something where if you can, if you're able to, therapy is the shit like that as well. It's definitely an investment it's. Um, and I also want to say, and I, I would, I got shit when I said this recently, but I, I still think it's fair to say. I know that therapy is not accessible for everyone. I do know that. I also know that it is cheaper than a lot of people think I have seen, and I have paid as little as 30 pounds when I've been really broke. A lot of therapists have certain spots available for people who can't afford it. The alternative is reading books.
Like the body keeps the score and homecoming and books in general about sort of trauma. See PTSD, PTSD regulating the nervous system. Then there is the confidence. Then there is the thinking highly of yourself. Oh, thinking higher. Which is a whole other thing. That's more about your [00:37:00] conscious mind. That's more about the voice in your head, a good way of doing it is become aware of the voice in your head and sort of try and, um, extract it a bit. So like write down what is the voice telling you. Like become aware of it. Every time it says something, be like, oh, what is it? What does it say? Cause it'll say, oh, you're useless. You can't wear this. Or you're just being so lazy. You're just being so whatever, write it down, pick it out and then look at it. Not as a voice of reason or who you are. Look at it as an external thing. That's coming from some weird place that has nothing to do with. It's just like a stranger. Who's standing in your kitchen saying, oh, you're so lazy. Like, fuck off. Get out of my kitchen. Like this is not me. And then you, then you slowly start to, um, replace it with, with positive things.
Even if you don't believe them at first, it doesn't matter. Just say it to yourself. Oh, I'm being so amazing. I'm so beautiful. I'm [00:38:00] great. I'm such a good friend. I look amazing today. Even if you don't believe it, that's fine. You need to train your brain into thinking differently. 
Floss: Yes. So it's not taking on your negative thoughts as an identity, essentially externalizing them as you said..
Sofie Hagen: And knowing where it comes from. Like often that voice will be the voice of our bullies or our parents, or, you know, the media, whatever, and realizing that it has nothing to do with you. And also it's your brain think, your brain thinks it's keeping you. It thinks that it's because every time you had a bit of confidence, you were attacked. So it's like, oh, if you just feel really bad about yourself and nothing bad will happen, but your brain doesn't understand that that's not how it works. Yeah. When do I feel bad? When do I feel good? And when you feel bad, that's usually a situation that you need to get out of. If that is unfollowing and Instagram account or cutting off a friend that was actually never that good for you and things to feel good. More of those. 
Floss: Yeah. Thank you so much that. Okay. Someone asked, what should we [00:39:00] do or what can we do about the government's archaic approach to the quote unquote obesity epidemic? 
Sofie Hagen: I mean, you could have stopped after government. Yeah. It would still be just like we do about the government, the government. Oh my God. I know that there are people slash organizations slash groups who have actually informed people in a position of power about how, what they were doing was very, very damaging and harmful and had the opposite effect of what they thought they wanted. And I also know that that was ignored. So there is, there's such a big financial upside to fatphobia in terms of businesses and law and all of that, that I find it very, very hard to, to [00:40:00] think about what we can do to change that because so many people are millionaires and billionaires because of fatphobia and that's almost the hardest thing to fight, right. It's, you know, rich people will always just want to be richer. Uh, so I think what we need to do is just not take our so-called health advice from Boris Johnson. I should not be the first person to tell you that that should be a given. And I think we need to listen to people like Dr. Joshua Wallrich who's, um, a doctor and talks about fatphobia on, uh, in his book and on his Instagram profile. He's great. He's great. 
Floss: Um, you touched on something then, which leads me into my next question. Someone else asked, what would you say to people and what can you say to people who say that being fat isn't healthy? Is there any kind of [00:41:00] sentence or something you can arm people?
I wish I wish there was a sentence whenever health and fitness has brought up, my initial instinct is just to go, oh fuck. Oh my God. It is because it's one of the, it's so easy to say fat is unhealthy. And then you have the majority of the world agreeing with you. And it's so hard to actually explain how complicated is the health chapter of my book took me six months to write, like it was the worst. Okay. Listen to maintenance phase. They have an episode called something about like fat, unhealthy, unhealthy, something about that. Listen to that because it is all being explained in such an eloquent way that I could never, I don't even have the vocabulary. Also, I have a whole chapter in my book, which is a [00:42:00] more aggressive version of that because I can't really be chill about it. The essence is that you don't shame people when they decide to go drinking and do drugs and do football. Have you seen a football match? How can you look at that and think that's hell like marathons is super unhealthy, but it's basically saying that fat is unhealthy as a way to attack fat people and demonize fat people further. And all of that is backed up by a lot of science and studies and people will have written about that a lot. So I would suggest you either just trust me and then just be like, Sofie's probably right. Dive into all of the literature. It's about it. 
Wow. That gave me so much to think about. What I love about Sophia is that they share so many of that anecdotes about their experiences.
And I imagined the bus. They've probably done a lot work to be able to talk about this stuff because especially also talking to a thin person, um, I know that [00:43:00] when I talk to men about sexism and I'm always kind of, I go in with my guard up a little bit, And waiting for them to not understand it. So I, I, I imagine that Sofie has done a lot of work to be able to speak their truth in this way.
They've done a whole fucking Ted talk on it and you should just, you should just go check it out. Um, thank you so much, Sofie. And thank you to everyone for listening. If you want to follow Sophie on Instagram, I highly recommend you do their handle is at SofieHagenDK, and that's Sofie with a f. 
 And if you've enjoyed today's episode, don't forget, I'll be answering even more of your questions on the bonus episodes that are available to subscribers of apple podcasts. You can ask me absolutely anything. And if you want your question answered by me, you can drop me a text or a voicenote on WhatsApp on plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5.
And a massive thank you to the fucking incredible blackhoney who complosed the original theme music for my podcast. You can [00:44:00] find them on Instagram app, black honey, UK, and check out their latest album called Britain and directing. To keep yourself updated with all the latest episodes when they drop, you can follow exactly on apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcast.
And please take the time to rate us wherever you listen to your podcast and give us a review. It really does help people to find us and make sure that the people who need to hear these conversations do. This is a podcast from something else. My producer is Milly Chowles, my assistant producer is Ella McLeod.
Executive producer is Carly Maille production coordinator is Lily Hambly, and I want to give a special thanks to our engineers Jay Beale, Josh Gibbs and mixing engineer, Gulli Lawrence Tickell. And additional production from Chris Skinner and Teddy Riley.