EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 16: BODY IMAGE: Shame, Shaving and Fear of Dating with Natalie Lee

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello. Thank you so much for listening to Exactly, with me Florence Given the last three episodes, I've been talking to my incredible guests, beauty redefined, Sophie Hagen, and Stephanie Yeboah all about body image. I fucking love talking about this stuff. It sets me a light with rage as much as it does passion.
This was the topic that really started me on my feminist journey. And what's been so incredible for me is hearing all of your feedback and seeing it set a light, a fire in so many of you too. So today, it's time to hear the questions that you want answered. And I have another inspiring, smart, fucking fabulous guest joining me to help me out to them.
The writer and content creator, Natalie Lee, who you may also know by her Instagram moniker 'Style Me Sunday'. I'm also really excited to let you know that I announce my first ever live show for this podcast. Exactly will be going live in London on may the 26th. My guests will be the one on only Monroe Bergdorf.
We'll be in conversation, taking a questions and just having a laugh. You can go to thepodcastshowlondon.com for more details and buy your tickets.[00:01:00] 
So this is the fourth and final episode in this mini series on body image. And today, mostly I'm going to be handing the interview mic over to you. This is your chance to ask the questions that you care about. Today my guest Natalie Lee, and I are going to be answering as many of your questions as possible.
Natalie is amazing. She posts on Instagram about shame, sexuality, and of course her own unfiltered experiences of beauty standards and body image. Natalie began her career as a midwife before starting her blog Style Me Sunday in July, 2012. Over nearly a decade, she has grown her platform from a blog to a brand.
And now we just thousands of women across various different mediums, and has more than a hundred thousand followers on Instagram. She shares her journey with such joy and candour and even took part in television programme about women's quests for better orgasms, where she had an orgasm on TV. If that's not shame-free living, then I don't know what is.
Her book has been published next month on the 9th of June and it's called, 'Feeling Myself: How I Shed My Shame To Find Sexual Freedom And [00:02:00] You Can Too. It's a memoir based on Nestle's own experience with trauma, shame, self-hatred depression, and eventually healing acceptance and sexual liberation. It's the story the story of learning to be yourself in a society that doesn't prioritize our pleasure and I can't fucking wait to read it and I can't wait to chat to her today. 
Natalie. Thank you so much for coming in today. 
Natalie: Thank you. [Laughter] I never know what to say!
Floss: [Indistinct, laughter] straight into it. Before I chat to you today about, uh, the listener questions. I want to ask you my five icebreaker questions. Okay. Just say the first thing that comes to your mind. What's one thing that sets your soul on fire?. 
Natalie: Um, okay. I think it's probably identifying an area that I need to work on. I love that shit. 
Floss: That makes you feel good. Like a little breakthrough. Yeah. 
Natalie: Yeah. Anytime like something is a bit I'm like, right. I've got to delve deeper into that and also like talking about [00:03:00] it and. Helping others through that sort of journey, healing journey. 
Floss: Probably one of my favorite answers I've had on the show for that first question.
Um, that's great. Probably because I also relate to it. So. That's my shit. Okay. Next question. If you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life, look that would define you forever- so how Natalie would be remembered- what would the outfit be? 
Natalie: Oh my God that's so easy. So I would do a sea queen. Do you know that company? They do these sequin bikini's that are amazing. Um, cowboy boots and probably a hat. Like what I'm wearing? 
Floss: A cowboy hat? 
Natalie: Is this a cowboy hat? 
Floss: It's not, It's not, but like to go with the cowboy boots maybe. 
Natalie: No, I know. But then that's a bit cliche. Isn't it? So I need something a little bit different. Oh and red lipstick. Of course. Yeah. 
Floss: Next question. What's something that people frequently misunderstand or get wrong about you. 
Natalie: I think that I'm unapproachable [00:04:00] and that- you said one, but I'm going to give you two. And I'm like really outgoing- I'm like quietly confident. And obviously people don't get that on the internet or on social-
The quiet part?
Yeah. I think when you see somebody like, well, I mean, cause I'm half naked most of the time on my Instagram, but people just assume that I'm like really loud and vivacious and out there. But actually I'm quite reserved and quite quiet. 
Floss: Yeah. Okay. Next question. Finish this sentence. I'm still a work in progress when it comes to... 
Natalie: Life? fucking everything in the world, like I, I question everything and I'm like there's light bulb moments going off all the time. I'm constantly questioning. What stories am I telling myself, is that true? Is it not true? Is that actually mine? Or has it been put on me? There's so many, [00:05:00] um, you know, that whole sort of heteronormative, like get married, have children have a car and get a dog.
I did all that. And then I was like, what the fuck? I'm still not happy. And I've got everything I wanted. 
Floss: So what you were told to want again. 
Natalie: Yeah. So, so now I'm like I'm questioning everything because nothing is actually real.
Floss: Oh let's go there! Spiral! 
Natalie: So that just made me really like... God, like, you've just put all these stories on me and I didn't even have, I don't feel like I had a choice in it. So now I'm just. Yeah, that's all bullshit. 
Floss: Was this even my script? Was it someone else's? And I'm just really trying hard to connect to my soul. 
Gorgeous answer. Okay. Last one. When was the last time you majorly crunched at yourself?
Natalie: Oh God, I cringe [00:06:00] all the bloody time at myself. Normally when I'm like shout in it, my kids, uh, or do you know what? One of the things I've found really hard has been silly. I don't know. I had to grow up at quite a young age, so-
Floss: So there wasn't room to be silly. 
Natalie: No, I was quite serious. And so now I'm really trying to find my kind of young, silly. Childlike side. 
Floss: That's nice.
okay. So before we get into the listener questions, which I can't after your quick fire ones I can't wait to hear what you have to say to those. Can you please tell me about your book? Please tell me all about your book that's coming out soon. And congratulations by the way. It's amazing. Thank you. 
Natalie: So my book is called feeling myself and it's out June the ninth, and it's all about.
Ah, realizing that had all this like sexual shame and I am slowly and shedding it. And the book is all about sexual [00:07:00] trauma. It's about sex in marriage. It's about sex with yourself. It's about, uh, sex after children, sex in a long-term relationship and sex with women, and whoever you want to have sex with. So there's loads, there's loads in there.
Floss: I love a book about sex. 
Natalie: I mean who doesn't, but this is going to be, it's not titillating. It starts off like quite a hard read, but then I hope it gets lighter, but I know it will resonate with so many women. I just feel like so many things have been done to us as women. And we hold so much shame around that and it's not even something we've done ourselves. So it's about just trying to help people to like lift that load off. 
Floss: What would you like people to understand about shame after reading your book? 
Natalie: I think that it can be worked through. It can be released. I don't know if people sort [00:08:00] of really understand what shame is, but I think it's really helpful to explain it a little bit.
Like shame is something really intrinsic shame is something that sticks to you like glue and it makes you feel like a bad person, rather than you've just done something bad. It actually is inside you. 
Floss: You are bad. 
Natalie: Yeah. And it like, it affects every single part of your life. You know, you don't feel worthy.
You don't feel good enough. That will have a huge effect. So it's really good to like shine a torch on it and uncover it because the more we shine a torch on the things that we feel shame about, the things that we don't want to get, we don't want to go there because yeah, that's too scary. It's like sometimes we think that like it will open Pandora's box and all this stuff will come out and we won't be able to cope. Well, I hope by [00:09:00] sharing my experience is that you can look there. It's not as scary as you have made it out to be in your head. And actually, even though it's fucking painful, you will get to the other side and you will feel lighter.
Floss: So I'm going to go straight into the listener questions. We have one here from Anna. Okay. So the text from Anna says, as someone who's very aware of how diet culture affects the lives of women, how do I react when my friend says negative things like I need to go to the gym and burn off calories, or I need to get a summer body? Thank you. 
Natalie: That is such a good question, because so many people experience this. I experience this. And it's so fucking annoying. I mean, the way I deal with it is I switch off. Like I might, my eyes glaze and I'm just like, oh, for fuck sake. Here we go again. I was in, um, an exercise class the other day and she was talking about how everyone [00:10:00] needed a good booty.
And I was like, oh shut up. It's just like, but I keep that all in because it takes a lot of energy to constantly be confronting people. That takes a lot um, so switching off is mentally switching off and just like glazing over, but your headphones and listen to a true crime podcast. That's what I do. Or if you feel like you have got some capacity to say something, the other day, I said to my friend, do you know what I'm really losing my temper with you, I need to tell you that my patience is quite short at the moment. And you as a size eight person constantly going on about how fat you are is actually really hard for me. So can you please be aware of how and what you say in [00:11:00] front of me? Because I don't like it. 
Floss: I've got like friends who have the most wild forms of body dysmorphia in terms of like, they are so like stereotypically beautiful by beauty standards, beautiful, and I hear- and it's all straight women, none of my queer friends outwardly talk about their bodies in this way- and I just, I just said to one of my friends, I was like, the way she talks about her body is though she's like a beast or like a monster. And she's so tiny and I said to her, she was like, well, I hate this.
I'm less this and that. So I just said, do you know what? It's so interesting because I'm actually bigger than you. So when you say I am so fat, what you're saying is you don't want to look like me and I'm stood right next to you. And she was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no Floss. We're the same size. And I was like, no, we're not, but that's okay.
Like, that's okay. It's not offensive to say I'm bigger than you. It's a fact, it's a fact that I'm a bigger size than you, but you think I'm to adjust. But when you look at yourself, you see. [00:12:00] Based, even though you are several sizes smaller than me and are a literal model, I would say, meet your friend with compassion because they literally look at themselves in the mirror and do not like it.
They're not half the time women are not seeking for attention or compliments when they say stuff, they genuinely see a monster when they look in the mirror because of what they've been taught because of who they compare themselves to. So what I find interesting is on the night out or whatever, if they're straight women, the way that they analyze and weigh up themselves with each other, it creeps up onto me as well. And it can rub off. 
Natalie: Exactly. 
Floss: So I would just be honest with your friends and especially if you're now in a place where you, where you are comfortable with your body, just in a way of like, do you want to talk about why you felt like that way about your body? It's it's hard because you can't talk about your own body without instantly making anyone else aware of theirs.
And that's the thing I think you have to be I and your answers lovely. If you've got the capacity to do that, that's brilliant- 
Yeah if it's your [00:13:00] bestie and you love them, bit of tough love- 
Natalie: but also sometimes people have to be aware of how they affect other people in what they're putting out there. And sometimes. That just really doesn't feel good for other people. And it's okay to say, you know what, I'm about to lose my patience here. You need to be aware of how this affects me as well. But yeah, I mean, obviously if you've got the time and the capacity you do it, Florence's way.
Floss: okay. Next question. This is a voice note from Penny. 
Voicenote 1: Hi. First of all. I just wanted to say, thank you so much for doing what you do. The podcast especially has been inspirational and it's so refreshing to hear these conversations being had. My question is how do I overcome the fear of what other people think about my body hair.
I've been growing my armpit hair for around four months now. And I feel really confident within [00:14:00] myself. And I also feel really calm. Um, with those people that are close to me, but I find that in public, I'm a lot more hesitant to unleash the pets out of a fear that someone might say something, any advice would be hugely appreciated. Thank you. 
Natalie: Oh, she sounds lovely!
Floss: Penny sounds lovely! I just want to say congrats on growing out your body hair penny. Um, my-
Natalie: Furry pits are us! 
Floss: Yes! Yes! I feel like when I first started growing out my pits, I had the same thing. So on public transport, getting on the tube, holding the bar when it's like sweating on the central line and feeling people's eyes on me, it did feel really uncomfortable. You almost, I felt anyway that I'd like let myself down because I felt comfortable with it in one context and not comfortable with it in another.
So I did feel comfortable posting pictures on Instagram, on my body app, because then I have a massive feminist audience and they all fucking, they don't give a shit, but then all, when you're on the tube, Oh, well, I [00:15:00] could get a hate crime. Someone could like spot me and my queer friends with our body hair and then all of a sudden, we're the freaks. There, there are so many different contexts. And I think sometimes that fear that you feel in your body is you just assessing your safety because it's still quite a shocking thing to some people for some reason. So I don't care anymore about who sees it. It makes me feel more comfortable and confident, and I do feel sexy with my body hair now. And I think that is just pushing through that discomfort. Keeping it there. I think it's just a process of pushing through and and keeping going with it. Um, but I also understand why you'd feel uncomfortable with it because some people, some people can be horrible in the street. 
Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. And it sounds like it's quite a new thing for you.
So for me, I felt quite self-conscious of it at first. And then the more you keep doing it, I think it just feels just, you just end up not giving a shit and also. You're challenging social norms here. You're doing things that are really [00:16:00] important. So the more you put it out there, the more you're going to make other people question, oh, hold on. Why am I shaving my pits? Like, it's nothing to do with like, keeping it clean or like not smelling or any of those stupid notions that we've been told, you know, to do it for um, it is purely about a beauty standard and probably to sell us products. So the more you keep doing it, I think the more you're going to feel comfortable with it. But you know, if you do feel uncomfortable at any time, if you do think your safety is at risk, then you just make adjustments and you just, you know, put on a cardigan or do whatever to make yourself feel comfortable. But I think eventually you're going to be, you're going to be like pits flying everywhere.
Floss: I feel like when you, when you. Release the pits. You also like liberate other people to do the same. Exactly. So when I first started growing up my armpit. One of my friends started to grow her armpit hair, and then it almost becomes the norm. Like [00:17:00] it's the new norm. And I saw this tech talk the other day where this girl was talking about, like, we all need to collectively decide to like drop a beauty standard, but it takes all women doing it for it to not matter anymore.
It can't just be one person. It takes like a group of people deciding, and it's like this, you set this chain of liberation. And I feel like that's what it could be. With all the hair, with anything. 
Natalie: Exactly. You don't even know the positive impact you might be having. Like, just celebrate that. You're a trendsetter.
Yeah. Go with it. 
Floss: Okay. Also on this topic, we have another text from Sarah. I grew out my armpit hair last year. My boyfriend's reaction was I don't find it sexy. I knew you before you had armpit hair. Don't you care about me finding you attractive? Now, half of methink I don't owe you pretty, pretty, and the other half of me is like, yes, I would like you to find me attractive because you're my partner. Should all partners have any say in our body image? And should we have a say in theirs? 
Natalie: That is such a good question. And I think probably as more women start to release the pit hair, they're going to be getting [00:18:00] this a lot. You know what to be in a relationship means that you and your partner are going to change so much over that time. So I believe that, you know, this is just about you changing and evolving and your partner has to either get on board with it and understand it. And be accepting of it or they have to walk the other way. I think they'll just get used to it. I think it was probably a bit of a shock and they weren't expecting it, but they will get used to it if they love you. It's only a bit of bloody hair and it's exactly the same as what they've got, probably. So I think just um, they'll come on board. 
Floss: Yeah. Yeah. That's what a boundary is. Isn't it? That the line between you and the other person, and that's saying, listen, this is something I need to go on. Um, and in fact, it's going to make me a better partner because I'm not going to be resenting the fact that I can't do this for you, it's gonna make the relationship a lot more healthy if you can be yourself in that [00:19:00] relationship. And if this is non-negotiable for you and you would like a hairless girlfriend, I'm sorry, but this is who I am and to compromise myself would be toalso ruin the quality of the relationship.
Natalie: Yeah and also then you know, that your partner is probably not going to be comfortable with you changing and growing along the way. So this is a really good sign. This is a really good test to see how they deal with it. And whether you want to be in this relationship.
Floss: okay. So now we have a caller, who's just dialing and now, their name's Bethany. So Bethany is so nice to meet you. Thank you so much for calling in today. 
Call in 1: No problem. Thanks for having me. 
Floss: What was the question you'd like to ask? 
Call in 1: Um, so the question was, um, I've been alive for nearly 28 years now. And, um, how do you learn to love and appreciate your body?
Natalie: That's a big question. Isn't it? It's a really big [00:20:00] question, but also it's one that affects so many people. So it's really great that you're asking this question. A lot of people feel very much under pressure to love and accept their body. And I think, you know, they often see people like me and floss on Instagram and they're like, why can't I be like that?
Why can't I be confident? Why can't I love who I am? Why can't I love my body? And the reality is, I don't know about you. I'm not going to speak for you, but the reality is you know, our confidence and our self-acceptance changes. It fluctuates all the time. So the first thing we need to not do is beat ourselves up for feeling like shit, because that just ends up in a vicious cycle and it makes us all like spiral basically. Um, but I think there's lots of little things you can do. One of the most basic ones is not to weigh yourself. [00:21:00] Um, that really helped me. I used to weigh myself every single day and I used to feel awful if I'd put on a couple of pounds and then I, you know, or I used to feel great if I'd lost a couple of pounds and it just, you know, a number affected how my day went and that's ridiculous. So I stopped weighing myself. 
Floss: Do you have scales Bethany? 
Call in 1: Um, I do, but I try and avoid them at all costs. 
Floss: Yeah. I binned mine. I binned mine years ago. 
Natalie: Get rid of them. Yeah. Yeah. 
Yeah. Because even just the, just them in the corner of your bathroom, it's like this little monster hanging there, like looking at you saying weigh me, weigh me, weigh me? It's like, don't do it.
Like just get rid of them, keep them away. And that will become like, you're, you'll feel a sense of freeness. Um, what else?
Floss: I was going to say. I learned to love my body. And again, don't know if every fucking day, sometimes it can literally [00:22:00] depend on the lighting, honestly, that's it can depend on the lighting.
It can depend on how I'm feeling. It's so fucking weird and I'll never really understand all of it, but I learned how to like myself, when I saw past my body and I saw the radiant person I am, and I started seeing all the value I bring to my friend's life to myself, the way that I can give good advice to people and an amazing quote, actually by another guest on here was that, um, you need to see your body as an instrument, not an ornament.
And I didn't have the words to articulate it before, but that is exactly what I've been doing. Four to five years is seeing my body as an instrument, as something to be used. Um, to further myself, to function myself, to enjoy the sun, to enjoy sex, to enjoy doing this, to enjoy talking to strangers, to enjoy all the gorgeous things that life has to offer as opposed to something to be looked at.
And that's what completely changed my life. Also, read the beauty myth, I'll never stop harping on about it, um, the muting myth [00:23:00] completely changed my life. It showed all the ways that half of my mind is being occupied by what I'm looking like when I'm doing things as opposed to living in my body. So again, it's, it's about getting into your body as uh, something to be used for pleasure. 
Natalie: Yeah. Can I give another one? I got it. Okay. Um, so, and also, conversely, like another thing that was really useful for me was looking at my body a lot. So standing in the mirror and looking at my naked body, what I notice it, the more I used to do that. The better. I used to feel about myself. So the thing is, is often if we have body issues, we like hide away from mirrors. We don't like looking in them, so it's almost like this big kind of scary thing. The more you face that kind of shadow, that kind of dark stuff that really scares you. The, the less scary it becomes. [00:24:00] When you look in the mirror, you'll find that all these things start popping into your head, that society has told you, like, I don't know, oh, I've got saggy tits or I've got big hips or whatever it is, you'll find that.
But then then it's really important to try and like retrain your mind and actually look at the stuff that you do. Like the more you keep doing it, the easier it becomes, the less you start thinking about all the shit that society has told you, and actually start to see your body through your own eyes rather than society's eyes.
And that has been a huge help. That's amazing. 
That's good. Yeah. What ways have you tried loving yourself, but I'm wondering what kind of things you've done. 
Call in 1: So, uh, Instagram accounts, obviously, um, what's really good as well as til tok, that sounds, um, it's like watching styling videos of people that are similar size to me [00:25:00] and getting inspiration from that.
Floss: That's so good. 
Call in 1: Um, I'd say as well, it's about giving yourself praise when you do feel good. If you've done your hair and makeup, you know, look in the mirror and do hun you look great. Just doing yes. Like good for you because that's really important. 
Floss: Yeah. Hyping yourself up! 
Call in 1: I think that's really important. And, um, exercising as well is always good to the mind and the body, get out for dog walk or doing a workout class or something, I think that really, really helps. 
Floss: Yeah, that's so true. And so simple. I love going for walks as well. And again, it just puts your body back into like functional mode and not ornament mode. Yeah. 
Natalie: Getting out into nature is always really good, especially if there's a lot of green around that, like opens up your heart shakra and just allows you to be a lot more sort of centered and present.
And I think that's always a good idea. 
Floss: Yeah, it sounds like you're doing really amazing things anyway. And even like calling in to ask this question [00:26:00] is really fucking cool and yeah, I wish you the best of luck on your journey.
okay. Here we have a text from Kaitlin I'm currently in my third year of uni and writing my dissertation on body image and social media. How do you think social media has impacted body image in the last 10 years? 
Natalie: Whew. 
Floss: It's like up and down, isn't it? 
Natalie: Yeah. I, for me, I think it's been overly positive, I would say because of.
Social media was the first place that I sort of found my community. And it was the first place that I actually acknowledged that I had any body issues was really freeing for me the first time I ever sort of talked about it. I remember feeling so sick when I posted it and talking 
about body image on social media.
Like, so my issue, my major issue happened after I had children. And I just [00:27:00] remember seeing all this saggy skin, seeing like the stretch marks on my boobs and fucking leaking tits. And once there's no baby in your stomach, it's like a deflated balloon. And I was absolutely devastated. I felt like. I felt like no one was going to fuck me again. I felt like no one was going to want to fuck me again. I felt like I couldn't wear a bikini ever again. I was desperately sad and there was obviously like that's probably to do with hormones as well. Um, but I just remember thinking, this is fucking awful. I hadn't prepared myself for how my body will change. So I started speaking about that online, and this was like 12 years ago, 13 years ago. So before body positivity was a big thing. And as soon as I did that, all these other women started to respond to it. And that is when I first sort [00:28:00] of. I first realized that everyone else is feeling the same. And, um, there was such a huge, positive response to it that it made me feel normal.
It made me feel okay. And that vulnerability that I showed was the best thing I ever did. And then, um, like the body positivity movement started and I loved seeing all these beautiful fucking fat women just owning themselves. Me personally, I stay away from the like fitspo images or accounts, I, always have like, Generally exercise or watching other people exercise really doesn't fucking interest me like that I have no interest in. So I would say overall for me, it's been really positive, but I understand when you're a lot younger and you compare yourself to people constantly all the time. I understand how it can have a negative [00:29:00] impact. 
Floss: I think that's, that's an amazing answer by the way, also, um, 
Natalie: it was a long answer 
Floss: no, so good. And also I, um, the way you described how you felt about your body after pregnancy, I've never actually heard a, woman's say that. I just think it's really honest. And I think that there's always this, this thing that we have, um, even me on this podcast now, I'm like, I want to let people know that I don't like my body all the time, but then also you felt like this duty to be like the good feminist who loves her body all the time. And it's like, even hearing you say that that has like liberated me in a way-
Natalie: and also. You know, like wrinkles and stuff. As I get older, I notice I'm getting wrinkles and obviously society tells you that wrinkles are bad and you should do everything you can to prevent that. Well, you know, we have to change the narrative ourselves. We have to stop fetishising youth and actually give value to wrinkles. Like I've got so much. [00:30:00] Experience in life. These wrinkles are fucking expensive and they've been, they have so much life story to tell and that's, that's beautiful. And I- that whole narrative really, really fucking annoys me. And the older I get, the more passionate and angry I get about it because, um, there's so much value to getting older so much, you know, you've got more money. You've you've got more life experience! You're more settled! 
Floss: You're more refined. Yeah. 
Natalie: Like a fine wine!!
Floss: Okay. Next question. This is a voice note from Talia. 
Voicenote 2: Hi, hope you're. Well, my question for you today is coming from someone with larger boobs. I still can't wrap my head around why it feels more ashamed upon to wear more revealing clothing, such as lower cut tops. I felt like someone with larger [00:31:00] boobs could be wearing the exact same top as some almost smaller babes, but it feels more sexualized and shamed upon for the person with larger boobs. Even though they literally just boobs and it's natural. 
Floss: Thanks. Oh, thanks Talia. Yeah, that is really fucking annoying. And you know what asked me as well as the men can get the nipples out and men's nipples don't even have a purpose. Like they don't even lactate. They don't even do anything, but they can still a cisgender man can still get the nipples out in public. And it's, there's always going to be a double standard when it comes to women's boobs. They are sexualized, even though they have literal life giving purposes for breastfeeding. And I feel your frustration. It's annoying. 
Natalie: So as someone who has, um, a big boobs, I don't know what they are like double F or something.
Uh, they are definitely more sexualized and people will look at you funny, if you wear the same top as somebody who's got much smaller boobs, but you know, what I have come to realize is that that's their problem. [00:32:00] I am just doing my thing, just like the next scale with smaller boobs. And if they want to sexualize my boobs or if they want to perv over them, or if they want to think badly of me and think that affects my moral compass, that's on them. That's not for me to take on. It is really hard to overcome that, I remember the like I never wear a bra anymore because I fucking hate them. They're restrictive and like, they're just annoying. Um, the first time I ever went out not wearing a bra, I was so, so self-conscious, I just thought that everyone's going to be looking at me and I'm probably going to get arrested by the police walking around with these big, massive jug jiggling around. But actually no, no one really gave a shit. I'm sure. Like I did get a couple of [00:33:00] looks, but you just have to like just think, oh, well, like it doesn't really matter. And my nipples are like constantly out my nipples do not- I used to get called bullet nips at school. They are like little bullets, um, the end of my breasts, but they're mine and they're lovely and I love my breasts. Yeah. You know, it's just something that I have now learned to embrace. 
Floss: Yeah. It's so annoying that the fact that the onus is put on the boob owner for them being sexual. Um, and it's also like such a slut shaming thing as well, because you're just existing. They are just there. And it's like Billie Eilish hid her boobs for so many years in her career because she knew that that's what people would do. And I love that she's gone the complete opposite way now. Like fuck you. I think it's so cool. Okay, [00:34:00] amazing. Next question here is from Ellis. How do I differentiate between objectifying, myself and loving myself? I always take nudes in the mirror when I feel hot, but isn't that just me objectifying myself?
Natalie: Fucking love that by the way. 
Floss: I love that. I love the nudes and also love the question. Um, I, this is something you're asking someone who also asks themself this question all the time. Um, like I said earlier, sometimes the way I feel about myself could depend on the lighting.
It could be a change in my mood, um, whether I'm having a good or a bad day, I think objectifying yourself is perhaps when you're not inside your body and you're looking, and you're only thinking of what the other person wants to see. But when I take nudes and I look at them and I think I look fucking hot, not a lot of people have actually seen my nudes and they are just for me. And I'm like, to me, that is really loving myself. And then if I want to [00:35:00] share that with someone, I will. I'm taking the picture. So I feel way more powerful and it feels really empowering. So I've never felt like I've been objectifying myself when I take nudes, I feel really in control and that's really important to me.
Natalie: That's a lovely answer. I really liked that. So. Okay. So I think it's important to kind of establish what objectifying is. And to me that means when you reduce something, just down to how it looks rather than seeing it as a whole. Now, I think it's probably very, very difficult really objectify yourself, because you can appreciate how you look, but you know that you've got so much more to give, you know, that you're a good friend, you know, that you're a good sister, you know, that you can like write books or you can do podcasts. Do you know what I mean? But fucking, if you want to call it objectifying yourself, fucking go for it. Objectify yourself. There's not enough [00:36:00] people in this world who taking nudes to love looking at their body who appreciate it. Go ahead and live your life. Objectifying yourself. And continue taking all those fucking nudes.
Floss: Okay, next question. This is a text from anonymous. My question would be how to not let my bad body image stop me from going on dates and dating. I feel like I don't look pretty enough to do that. I never had a bad experience. I've never had a bad experience or something, but I'm always scared to be judged and to not be liked. This makes me so sad. Anonymous person, because you're already counting yourself out of something before you've let yourself experience it, which I have done many times. The last person I interviewed Stephanie about. She said that she's done this with many times with job opportunities, with all of this kind of stuff, where you count yourself out to protect yourself from heartbreak and rejection. And I know that that is a, a coping mechanism. It's a survival instinct to protect yourself [00:37:00] because you don't want yourself to get hurt, but nothing is going to happen.
If, if, if romance or love or sex is something that you want, if you constantly shield yourself from having those experiences. It's not going to come in. And that is something I really needed to hear a while ago is like almost that bit of like tough love of like, my friends have been around me and they're like, moaning of it.
This, this isn't happening, this isn't happening, but Floss, this is because, um, you do this and you do this and you do this. If you don't feel good about your body, It's probably one of the biggest barriers to dating and intimacy because you're, you share your body with the other person? Um, I would say, try to build, let's say, go on a date with someone you don't have to rush into things also.
That's the other thing. So like you can take it slow with the person you can get to trust a person. That's when I feel safe, safe, being intimate with someone is when I can trust them. So you don't have to rush into anything. If that's what you've got in mind, like all my friends are having casual sex, so fuck it, I should just do it as well, but I hate my body and you can always state your own way and do at your own pace.
And I think our friends [00:38:00] around us do influence us and our habits and our lifestyles, but you can just kind of look at it as this individual case of what do I want. 
Natalie: Yeah. I think that's a really good answer. I think to add to it, I'm going to go a little bit deeper and I think, you know, you mentioned the feeling, not feeling worthy, not feeling good enough and to me, there sounds like you're telling yourself a story that comes from probably childhood. It might not, but it definitely came, comes from some experiences or experience that you've had. And I think it's just worthwhile to really look into that a bit deeper, understand why you don't feel worthy.
One of the most powerful things you can do is to. Look into those sort of areas that are shadowy, that are dark, that are a bit scary. Um, so yeah, shine a light on that and really get to uncover that. [00:39:00] I think like floss said, I think it is like you can go in baby steps and I think that will probably work, but I do think there's a bit of a deeper digging that needs to go on here to, to uncover- 
Floss: Dating and healing. It's messy. but it has to be done!
Natalie: Painful, messy, and beautiful.
Floss: Oh my God. I love women so much. Um, I've enjoyed today's episode loads and hearing Natalie talking about post-pregnancy body, uh, her bullet Nepal's divorcing, dating women, um, is just completely made my fucking day. And I really hope that everyone who sent in their questions feels like we answered them adequately. I just, I, I love women and that's how I've come away from this episode feeling I just think was so fucking strong and.
I love doing these call in episodes. And I love hearing your voices and thank you so much to Bethany for your call, who actually called in on her honeymoon. Congratulations. I'm so glad you actually [00:40:00] made time to talk to us today. And I really hope that Natalie and I helped you solve your body image dilemmas.
You can follow Natalie on social media on Instagram. @StyleMeSunday. So that's it this week. That's our final episode on body image with Exactly. And next week we start our fifth and final mini-series for the season, and it's all about relationships. I'll be kicking off with the wise warm and wonderful Elizabeth Day talking all about friendship. If you have any relationship dynamics, romantic platonic family, or even. Whatever you want to talk about. If you'd like to speak to me in my guest expert in the final call and for this season, please get in touch on WhatsApp. The number is plus 44 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5.
And if you've enjoyed today's episode, don't forget, I'll be answering even more of your questions on the bonus episodes that are available to subscribers of apple podcasts. You can ask me absolutely anything. If you want your question answered by me, you can drop me a text or a voicemail [00:41:00] on WhatsApp on plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5.
And a massive thank you to the fucking incredible black honey who compose the original theme music for my podcast. You can find them on Instagram app, black honey, UK, and check out their latest album called Britain and direct. To keep yourself updated with all the latest episodes as they drop. You can follow exactly on apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcast.
And please take the time to rate us wherever you listen to your podcasts and give us a review. It really does help people to find us and make sure that the people who need to hear these conversations do this is a podcast from something else. My producer is Milly Chowles. My assistant producer is Ella McLeod. Executive producer is Carly Maille. Production coordinator is Lilly. And I want to give a special thanks to all engineers, Jay Beale,, Josh Gibbs and mixing engineer Gulli Lawrence Tickell. [00:42:00] And additional production from Chris Skinner and Teddy Riley.