EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 17: RELATIONSHIPS: Besties, Boundaries and Break Ups with Elizabeth Day

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello. Thank you so much for listening to exactly with me Florence Given. This is our first episode on our brand new mini-series and it's actually the final mini-series of season one, but don't worry. Season two will be happening. For now, though. I'm so excited to chat with a lineup of amazing guests, all about relationships. This is my favorite topic. I'm completely fascinated with people, how we relate to it. How other people can bring things out of us that we never knew existed. I think the way that we treat each other and the way we form bonds with people and why we form those bonds with people is endlessly fascinating.
So in this many seasonal relationships, I'll be talking to my guests and taking on board all of that wisdom and can't wait. As always in the fourth episode of this miniseries, we're opening up the conversation to you. You can send me a message or a voicemail by our podcast WhatsApp number at plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6.
So back to today's episode, I'm joined by [00:01:00] podcasting royalty Elizabeth Day. She is the host of the how to fail podcast has written seven books on her new podcast 'best friend therapy' sees Elizabeth and her best. Mate, who's a therapist, Emma Reed Turrell pick apart how we can all set better, better boundaries' and looking at how other people's expectations of us impact the way we relate to each other.
So I wanted to talk about friendships first with Elizabeth, because so much of the emphasis is on romantic relationships. And I don't think we actually really acknowledge and take the time to look at how important friendships are and how they change and grow and often deteriorate throughout our adult lives.
I remember growing up, I always thought that my, my besties in primary school were going to be with me forever. And no one really talks about the heartbreak of friendship. We rarely talk about how to navigate friendship, how to be a good friend, how to have fun. Even how to break up with friends. When those relationships no longer serve us, your friends and the company, you keep shape you from the advice they give you to their own decisions and their own lifestyle choices.
The famous saying is, show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are. And I think it's so accurate and so [00:02:00] true. And your friends do reflect back to you all the different parts of yourself. I can't wait to speak to Elizabeth Day about this. She's an absolute master interviewer herself and 'how to fail' is one of my favorite podcasts.
She has a way of getting people to open up and expose the vulnerabilities with such sensitivity and wisdom. That is so fucking hard to master Elizabeth recently said something in an interview that I just found so poignant, she said, we're all used to the idea of working on a romantic relationship and we've normalized the concept of seeking outside help when needed in those scenarios.
But there's a sense around modern than friendships that they just come naturally in order to be worthwhile. I think she's absolutely right. And I can't wait to explore this topic more with her today. 
Elizabeth, thank you so much for coming in to talk to me today. I didn't know that you were coming into studio, so I'm just so delighted to meet tell me you in person.
Um, how are you? 
Elizabeth: Great. Thanks. I'm delighted to meet you in person too. I suppose if insisted, I was like, no, I want to do this one in the flesh because I want to meet Florence. So that's why I'm here. It's a pleasure.
Floss: Thank you so much, [00:03:00] so much. I want to talk to you about today, but first of all, I'm going to go in with my five icebreaker questions.
I ask all of my guests. Just say the first thing that comes to your mind. Okay. Number one, what's one thing that sets your soul on fire? 
Elizabeth: Marmite on crumpets.
Floss: Gorgeous. Okay. 
Okay. Number two, if you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life, a look that would define you forever. What would that be? It doesn't have to be comfortable. It doesn't have to be practical. Like how would Elizabeth Day like to be remembered. By the way your name is amazing and I can't stop saying it? 
Elizabeth: Thank you! Thanks yeah. I quite like the fact that my surname's a single syllable. I think that works. Okay. The outfit that defines me the rest of my life is a perfectly impeccably tailored trouser suit..
Floss: Okay. What's the pattern on it? 
Elizabeth: There it's probably either like, um, a kind of velvet, but no pattern, just a single color. Like I've got a really lovely one that I love at the moment, which is kind of ochre velvet. Yeah. Or dark blue velvet, actually yeah dark blue velvet tuxedo suit.
Floss: No you're not going to believe this because today a [00:04:00] dark blue velvet suit arrived in my flat!
Elizabeth: Shut up! Did you order it?
Floss: Yeah I ordered it months ago from Etsy. It has these little shoulder pads that make me feel fucking incredible. So that arrived literally just before I got here, um, opened up and I was like there she fucking is, my blue velvet suit. Yeah. Okay. Uh, next question. Uh, what's something that people frequently misunderstand or get wrong about you before they know you.
Elizabeth: I think people misunderstand. It's not necessarily that they get it wrong. Cause it's kind of flattering. I think they think that I seem calm. And like, I have it sorted. And actually I am riven with anxiety and worry, like the rest of everyone on this planet, but I've always been what my mother would call it a worrier , but what in modern parlance, we would call someone with anxiety.
So I always overthink everything. 
Floss: And you, someone that always ends up pulling it off. 
Elizabeth: Most of the time and I will drive myself [00:05:00] into the grind, almost doing that. 
Floss: Yes. My dad explains it almost like a duck swinging swimming in the water where it looks so peaceful, but underneath it's legs are going like crazy.
And that's how my dad describes it. And that's how it came to me in my head. When you said that, then. 
Elizabeth: That's exactly it. And I think it's partly because when I was at school, I was lucky enough, but also. I'm lucky enough to be put onto this debate team. Okay. And you're taught, well, I was taught anyway to appear calm, but also to smile when you're speaking, because it gets the audience on side.
And I learned that such an early age that quite often. Even people who know me really well will have no idea of what's going on until I reach a breaking point. And I'm suddenly like I can't do it. I can't do it. And that's happened a couple of times in my life with like spectacular implosion, but I'm getting better at handling it now.
Floss: Yeah. Okay. So next question. Uh, well maybe I feel like you just answered this one. Um, finish the rest of the sentence. I'm still a work in progress when it comes to... [00:06:00] 
Elizabeth: Work life balance, and also just a work in progress as a person, as a fully realized being I'm just a constant work in progress in that. 
Floss: Great answer.
Okay. Okay. Next question. Last question. When was the last time you majorly cringed at yourself? 
Elizabeth: Oh my God. All the time. When I was getting dressed, I was like, what should I wear for Florence given? Because you always look so amazing and there's such a sense of style. And I was like, I didn't know. And I created it myself cause I was like, am I dressing too young? Because I'm trying to impress her!
Floss: I'm honoured that you even thought that coming to meet me today. Cause also I didn't even know I was coming to see you! 
Elizabeth: And you look amazing, and you didn't even know anyway yeah. So I cringe at myself all, all of the time. All I'm actually, I think that's a really healthy sense of absurdity I have about myself. I never take myself too seriously. Yeah. 
Floss: Yeah.
It's really good. A little bit of self-awareness every now and then.[00:07:00] 
Okay. Lovely. Now let's get right into it. So this episode is all about friendship and boundaries and relationships in general and you and your friend Emma co-host the best friend therapy podcast. Can you tell me a little bit about how you started the podcast with Emma? 
Elizabeth: Yes. So Emma has been my best friend for the last 20 years or so we met at university. I met her in freshers week. I walked into the bar and I saw this woman who was like a goddess with long blonde hair. Wearing a slogan t-shirt and she was surrounded by a group of salivating males and she, and they were all like bursting into laughter. They, she said, and I just thought, we're not going to get on.
There's no way I'm getting friends with her. Fast forward. We actually bond over knowing Austin Powers, dialogue, which dates us somewhat and we've been best friends ever since. And, uh, she became a psychotherapist in her twenties, in her late twenties. And I have the joy of getting the benefit of all of her wisdom and expertise for free.
And she's so incredible. And I'm a huge believer in the power of therapy. And I [00:08:00] just wanted to open up the conversations that I'm lucky enough to have with her to a wide audience. And the reason it happened is because she published a book last year called please yourself, which is about how not to be a people pleaser. It's amazing . 
Floss: Ordering it in my head already. 
Elizabeth: Um, she came on, my other podcast How To Fail to talk about failure. So, uh, she had three failures and we discussed it and we also discussed people pleasing. And there was such an amazing response to that from women who- predominantly women actually- from women who loved our dynamic as friends, but loved her uh, wisdom. And so it was about then bringing that to kind of wider platform. And that's the start of best friend therapy, which has only just launched, but I'm really proud of it. We both are. And it's basically conversations between the two of us where she is the therapeutic expert. I'm her best mate and we chat about a different topic every, every single week. So we've done. Boundaries, [00:09:00] imposter syndrome, games we play in relationships, and shoulds and oughts... 
Floss: Games we play in relationships as in, uh, like almost the silent power kind of thing. 
Elizabeth: Yeah not monopoly! 
Floss: [Laughs] just to clarify! 
Elizabeth: But she was super fascinating about that one because. Revealed. Uh, so many of us have this kind of parent adult child dynamic triangulation within us with everyone in our lives. So it can be a boss. It can be a colleague, it can be a romantic partner, or it can be a friendship, or it can be within your families.
If it's your sort of childlike self, it's the one that fears things are going to spiral out of control. And what can you do about it? If it's your parents' self, it's the kind of admonishing self-critical voice. And the goal is actually to be the well balanced adult. This is a driving your own cost. 
Floss: I find that there's a different, different energy of floss that thrives within different friendships.. Do you have that? 
Elizabeth: Oh definitely. And I think it's one of those things that I've only just realized is a real positive, because for [00:10:00] ages, I thought that I was being inauthentic or fake or not myself-
Floss: Because you were different?
Elizabeth: Exactly. But then I realized the complexity and beauty of being human is that we do have multiple facets and some people will draw that out more than others. And we have different energies with different friendships. And that's a really wonderful thing. The only energy to be really wary of is draining. Yeah, where you emerge from a conversation or an evening spent with a friend and you feel really just empty because you sort of given of your soul. Yes. And quite often I found those friendships.
You rehash the same conversations over and over again, where someone will be asking you to fix something for them, or just to be able to offload emotionally on you. And the one thing that I think defines a really great friendship is a sort of generous reciprocity where you feel like you're also getting something back.
Floss: You also, this is what I found. I don't mind pouring myself for my friend myself, out for my friends, knowing [00:11:00] that I'm secure enough in that friendship, that she'll be doing it for me next week. But I know within me, within my bones, within my gut, When that's not going to happen. And that's when it's almost like your body acts as this, uh, what's the quote,
like your body is the most accurate barometer of how you feel about things. And my body tells me when something's a bit off.
Elizabeth: It's so interesting. You say that it's so serendipitous this podcast, not just because the blue velvet suit, but also because I'm writing a book about friendship at the moment. And so I've been doing a lot of kind of research and I've discovered so much about friendships, but also about myself. And one of the things that I find super interesting is that there's your out and out toxic friend who never wants the best for you.
Who's always kind of passive aggressively undermining you, who, you know, deep like deep down and he sort of know that person isn't good for you, but as bad for your health is an ambivalent friend who is sometimes passive, aggressive and undermining, but sometimes so generous and lovely and kind of free spirited and fun to be [00:12:00] around. But because of the unpredictability of that, We can never feel safe in that friendship. 
Floss: Yeah. And I think you're so right. That your body kind of tells you it always does. And, um, there are things that we cling to, I feel to almost rationalize and justify those behaviors because "Oh well I love them and we've been friends for years. We have this X, Y, and Zed in common", it's the same in relationships, like always clinging to the good bits or whatever, because you almost have to mourn this entire idea of who they are. What does that also mean about you to be with that person, if this is who they are, and you have to move people from being safe to unsafe and that's really scary.
And that's what I've found with, um, friends, is that you don't want to have to put someone into the unsafe category. Yeah. The rest, there are so many. Different ways that your body tells you this kind of stuff. And often I find a good indicator or a bad indicator of a friendship, but a good indicator that, uh, your gut is right, is when you hide things from the people that you do love and trust. 
So if I'm not telling my mum something about a date or a friend, I know it's probably a bit fucked [00:13:00] up, you know, it's like if I'm not telling her something or, um, my best friend, if I'm not telling my best friend, this thing about this person I'm dating. I'm like, why aren't you saying that? Because you know that you want to ignore it.
You want the red flags 
Elizabeth: That's a great metric. I would also say if you're hiding things from the friend in question or the romantic partner in question, that's also an indicator because are. I saw some friends in my past who I hid it when I had something good to share. I know. I mean, yeah. And if that's happening, if you feel like you have to take the emotional responsibility of handling that mental state, when something good happens to you, I mean, there are phases in every friendship that, you know, you're sensitive as to what you do and don't tell,
Floss: Yeah maybe you tell them a week after because they've just had the worst fucking news of their life.
Elizabeth: Exactly. Exactly. If it's becoming routine and a habit, then that's definitely an internal alarm bell
Floss: So when it comes to female [00:14:00] friendships, I have found it previously really hard to express when I'm hurt. Um, and it's often come out in passive aggression. I'm I'm way more, better at it. And I'll just put, my mom is like incredibly direct with my friends and would always set time to talk to them. You talk a lot about in your podcast about how communication is really important. What ways of communicating can women adopt to avoid those passive aggressive things, those, those leaving each other out of social situations, all that like relational aggression that we have, what are some other ways that we can actively work to make our friendships better with each other. 
Well, I 
Elizabeth: think communication is key, but one of the things that I've learned from AMA actually doing best friend therapy, is that not all communication has to be verbal.
Now this blew my mind. So you can have a nonverbal boundary where you don't need to explain it. You don't need to be defensive about it. It just needs to be there. So for instance, an example in my friendships is I hate the phone. I hate phone calls. I love texts and voice notes. 
Floss: Okay. [00:15:00] How would do you feel about faceTime?
Elizabeth: Actually? Weirdly FaceTime is pretty good to me. It's weird. It's telling me my face. I still need that. I need to kind of see 
Floss: empathy. You can see the expression. 
Elizabeth: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I just, most of my friends now know through habit that if. Call me on the phone in a conventional way. I won't answer.
Floss: Okay. 
Elizabeth: That's my example of a nonverbal bindery. That's not me being rude. It's just not my favorite form of communication. And that's fine for that should be fine because friendships are about approaching each other with a generosity of spirit. So instead of thinking, oh, she hates me, it's gone to voicemail.
Just think the phone's not her thing. So that's one thing, not all communication needs to be verbal. That really, really helps me. I think the other thing is. It is also completely fine for you to say, if you will offer instance offered an invitation from a friend who wants to meet up with you for dinner, or, uh, you want to invite your friends to a [00:16:00] party. And it just so happens that Emma doesn't really love parties. And so she got into the practice of saying to me, That's not going to work for me, but I would love to celebrate another way with just you, because I would like to see just you, I would prefer that than coming to a party and having to share you with lots of people. My introvert itself just doesn't want to do that. And that was such a loving way of doing it. So instead of feeling bad, that you've said no to something you can say no, and offer an alternative that suits you better 
Floss: Rescheduling .
Elizabeth: Exactly. Yeah. Like I might have a really busy week and not be able to go for dinner because that's the only night I have to myself.
And that's fine. You don't need to explain it. You can just say, I'm really sorry. Dinner won't work for me, but how about this? So that's another really good way of communicating. 
Floss: That's the other thing, isn't it? Time alone. It almost doesn't um, I've, I've experienced this as someone who is like freelance and I'm very much control my schedule more or less. Um, the people [00:17:00] almost don't take the schedule seriously. So when you say. Um, you know, you're not, I'm writing my book. They're like, well, I'll come sit with you in the cafe. No babes! When I come home. And, um, and I come home to my office and my assistant is there, I say don't talk to me cause I'm literally in the novel and she's like, sorted. And now we just have this thing where she doesn't talk to me. When I go in, after I've been writing my book where I say, I need the space, whatever. And it's yeah. I think like an energetic boundary sometimes can work, but you don't need to communicate, but I think it's, it's hard for people sometimes to, I know I think a lot of people listening will feel this way to not also, so I'm very good at setting boundaries, but it's, it's accepting other people's because that's, that's the other thing. If you have like a pattern of a friendship, and a pattern is established and someone changes that we, it can be perceived as rejection.
Definitely. When, when I, all of a sudden was no longer this people pleasing, fucking doormat. I did say to my friends, I wanna let you know I'm going through a lot of changes and I love you, but I need to do a lot of stuff. That means I'm going to love you even more now, because I'm not going to resent the fuck out of you, not going to resent, spending time with [00:18:00] you, because I'll say no when you asked to hang out instead of yeah. Okay. And going there the whole time, feeling annoyed that I'm here. And I feel like I called them resentment ships. So they weren't friendships. They're resentment ships where I just, I was with this person and then you don't really want to be there because you've got deadlines. You've got this or that. And now I actually just say no, when I can't do things and then say you deserve my undivided attention. Let's do Saturday. Let's do Sunday. Let's do something else instead. But the resentment just builds and builds and builds because we don't communicate.
Elizabeth: Yeah. And that's another thing that Emma's taught me is that when that happens, you're training, when you're a people pleaser, you're training people to come to you to be pleased. So the only way you can stop that happening is to train them in a different way. That makes friendships sound like dogs which I don't mean at all. But I really struggle with, with clear communication in friendships, because, because love is so important to me and my friends, the biggest love of my life. And so I never want to intentionally, uh, any of my loved ones, but I think it comes down to. What would I rather, [00:19:00] and I think I'd always rather know if someone has an issue or problem or something that they need to air with me. I think I'd rather know than be ghosted, which has happened to me twice in friendships.
Floss: Oh yeah. Well, me too. 
Elizabeth: It's horrible. It's probably the most, one of the most heartbreaking things I've been through and it's a slow motion heartbreak. It takes months and years. I'm now at peace with, with the ghostings, because I realized that if that's how someone is going to respond to something that's happening in my life. And I think with one example, it was because I was getting happier and they didn't like that on a subconscious level. If that's how they respond, then I don't want that kind of friend. And in a way, just because a friendship ends, doesn't make the friendship itself a failure.
Floss: Yes.
Elizabeth: I talk a lot about that on hands fail, but the idea that our relationships to exist, it's still, you still have all of the memories, [00:20:00] all of the wonder, all of the shared experiences. And that person has probably taught you something really valuable that you needed to know, and you can let them go with love.
And it's not a failure just because it ends.
Floss: When you said about your, your friends, um, kind of ghosting you and fazing you out, whatever, when you became happier, it does often leave you thinking about what were the original terms of that friendship then? 
Elizabeth: Yeah. 
Floss: If I've now broken them by being happy. Yes. So why did you need me? What were you getting from that? Um, and it's, it's really, it's really uncomfortable. You do, you do reevaluate because no friendship has spoken terms. Everything is unspoken, you know, apart from like monogamy or like whatever it is or I'll meet you here at this time. Yeah. I think people don't like to talk about the heartbreak of friendship, because you can almost, at least for me, I always thought that friends were with you forever. And I think I got into that [00:21:00] head space of, well, these are my girls. They're good. They're going to be here forever. I'm happy for them. So obviously they're happy for me. And that's just not always the case. 
Elizabeth: No. And that's when you were saying that there are no spoken terms of friendship. There are no rituals either. There is no wedding. There is no divorce. There is no cleverly articulated way to break up with a friends. And there is with romantic partners. There's such an extent that it's become a cliche 
Floss: Because you can only have one.
Elizabeth: Exactly whereas there isn't friendship monogamy. Yeah. People would think you would bat shit. If you're like, I've just got one friend I'm staying loyal forever and no one else is allowed in. And it's become a cliche to say things like, it's not, you it's me like that. There is. So there is so many phrases you can reach for, to break up with a romantic partner and vanishingly few for friends, 
Floss: because, because you could just keep them around technically, but, but you know, you're not going to be that good. And it's, it's that for me, it's always the elephant in the room of like the [00:22:00] friendship isn't the same anymore. And you just of you kind of it's. Yeah. 
Elizabeth: And I think the best friendships grow with you and allow space for everyone who evolve within that friendship dynamic.
But it's so interesting. What you say about thinking your friends are sort of growing up with the assumption that your friends are there for life now, where has that assumption come from? It's probably come from culture popular culture. Um, it's probably come to be Frank from an age from, from bygone ages when people's life expectancy was a lot shorter.
Like we always have to question where those internalized assumptions come from and whether they actually serve us as individuals, because they might. 
Floss: Because if you think about it also, I felt like people are evolving and growing at a much more rapid rate. Now with social media, with the, the wider social acceptance of gender roles, being a bit more blur with sexuality, with increased awareness of all this stuff, I think more people are coming to realize who they are. Whereas in the olden days, when we only had 200 people in our communities, you wouldn't probably change that much. You're not [00:23:00] thinking about fucking evolving. You're actually thinking about surviving and not being killed by the saber-tooth tiger. It's such a fucking privilege to be able to sit here and go boundaries should I put in this week.
And I felt like because of that, you do not grow sets of people a lot quicker than maybe you would have in the olden days when you were just having babies and eating fruit! Tits out, you know! 
Elizabeth: Foraging for berries! It is a massive privilege. You're right. But I also think. It's a huge necessity in a way that it wasn't in the past, because as you say, our friendship groups have evolved such a point that they're massive.
We have them on social media. We have friends we've never met. We also have like 24 hour communication, which my mother's generation didn't have like 
Floss: Oh my god it's so weird. I didn't even think about that. 
Elizabeth: Yeah. My. I would write a letter, Christmas cards. 
Floss: Three to five business days babe!. 
Elizabeth: Exactly. Yeah. The Christmas card once a year, just to say what the family's been up to or a landline phone call, like they, they used to be, you know, kind of magnificent occasions.
Yeah. Whereas now communication is so [00:24:00] easy and it's wonderful, but it also cheapens it so true. So there's this expectation that if you've got in touch with someone, they must get back to you immediately. And if they don't, you've either done something. They've done something wrong, you're a bad person, they're a bad person, and none of it is value-free and it's just exhausting.
So I think that's why we also have why, why we're talking so much about boundaries now in 2022, because we can't exist in a safe mental health spacewithout getting very familiar with boundaries.
Floss: I think it's really important that we don't avoid conflict in our friendships and that we do address it. So I'm bisexual and I mostly date women. And that is so confusing. I've had really difficult conversations with female friends about, we can't do this because this is what girlfriends would do, or like this is too romantic or this is that, or, and it's, those lines become really blurred, but I tell them every single time and they tell me I've really [00:25:00] had to learn to be very direct with my friends.
Elizabeth: Well, that's a perfect example of loving communication and looking at how your friends respond. There's this therapeutic time kind of rupture and repair the idea that when we have conflicts and when we face it, we come back stronger as a result. And I do think that there's an enormous space for that in friendship.
And for me, When I need to put a boundary in place is when there's repeated behavior that makes me feel bad or sad, or, um, just guilty, like a repeated behavior that someone else has shown themselves capable of that keeps happening. That's what I need to put a boundary in, but a boundary is not there for me just to shoo away, any uncomfortable, uncomfortable conflict or feeling of discomfort about anything else.
That's the wrong application for me personally. So I think that, again, those two things can coexist, but I think the most important thing from what you said there is like how well your [00:26:00] friends responded to that clarity of communication and what a generous thing that was for you to do.
Floss: Rupture and repair. I like that.
Elizabeth: Yeah. I remember my other half saying to me, it's something really interesting where a friend of mine. I felt that they had let me down. And he said, well, in a way, you're closer to that person now, because they've taught you something about your, about themselves that you need to know. I was so, oh my God, they've taught you something about themselves that you needed to know about them.
And thinking in that way really helped me. 
Floss: That's so good. 
Elizabeth: Isn't that wise? 
Floss: The unspoken, the actions. It's no longer words. It's no longer how they've been with you. It's how they handled a situation. You've almost got to look at it objectively. Could I actually be friends with someone that handles a situation with me in that way.
Elizabeth: Exactly. And what would it say about you to your other friends? If you carried on being friends with that person, that, what would it say? Would it say that you have very [00:27:00] low standards for friendship and what, how would that make your other friends feel like your real true friends? They're like, we've been in it floss since the beginning and now you're just letting in this person. Yeah. Like, it's almost a source of, you have to think of it as a nightclub where there are certain things that you require from your friends in order to be aloud through the door. Um, and I hope that doesn't sound too, um, exclusive because I don't mean it to at all I think I want it to sound clear and like, this is what I can give as a friend, and this is what I expect in return. And that is all that we need is like a generosity of intent and a kindness of spirit.
Floss: I really like that phrase. Generosity of intent is spirit of generosity. I think it's really nice. 
Elizabeth: Oh, I think a better word than exclusive is principled. Like you have to stand for something. In friendship as in everything else, because if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything doormat in the world, words of NWA. So I definitely think that it is okay for you to have [00:28:00] friendship principles and to live by that value. And that thing about consistency is so true because for me, it's not about consistency of communication. Okay. It's about consistency of reaction. I need to feel safe. In all my relationships is what I've realized now in my forties, it's taken me a long time. I need to feel safe and I need to feel that you will think the best of me in any given situation. And obviously there might be some things I do that are really hurtful or awful.
And I hope that the other person will raise that with me, but that they will do that from a position of thinking the best of me. 
Floss: Yeah. Elizabeth, just having a bad day, I'll give you some time. Not immediately jumped. Well, we need to talk about this. 
Elizabeth: She doesn't have enough time for me because look at how on Instagram being all busy.
Floss: Yes. 
Because also, like you said, your thing is that you, you find it really hard to express when you're anxious to get the duck on the water paddling underneath, your friends are like fucking hell, she's living this life, on Instagram. Like you need someone to be like I know Elizabeth better than that she's probably fucking [00:29:00] struggling. Let me reach out anyway. 
Elizabeth: That's exactly what Emma does. She has this thing. She calls it her spidey senses and she'll leave me a voicemail being like my spidey senses are saying that you might be having a tough time. Yeah. Although it's someone who can see the feet paddling. 
Floss: That's really important in any relationship romantic or platonic, we thought that's incredible.
Okay. So Elizabeth, my listeners have been in touch with some questions on relationships and friendships. Could you give me a hand answering them? Absolutely. Okay. Question number one. Is there ever a right way to break up with a friend? Um, can you make up again? 
Elizabeth: Yes, and yes, but I think there's a right way to break up with an individual friends that only you will know.
So it's not like there's one template you can use for everything you can definitely make up again. And I've had that experience as we were talking to you about rupture and repair, it makes the friendship stronger because when you come back together, there's this clarity of communication. There's nothing to fear anymore because you've done the breakup.
[00:30:00] You've been through the worst and you've survived it. And that can be a really beautiful second act to your friendship. But in terms of breakups, um, I'm very conflict avoidant. Okay. And, um, it's taken me. To be ghosted myself to understand that that for me is not an acceptable way of ending a friendship. So I did end a friendship during the pandemic, which I think is probably a very familiar story for many listeners, because we've all been under this process of reevaluation of how we want to fill our time. And, um, that friendship was a long time coming. And I ended up texting that person and saying, I'm a slightly different stage in my life right now. And I've just got my own staff to get on with. And I can't give the time that I would like to our friendship, but I send you nothing but love and I wish you all the best of the future. And I sent that text. [00:31:00] That it was like, honestly, I can't tell you the anxiety I felt in phrasing it and then sending it. 
Floss: My chest like tightened even hearing that. 
Elizabeth: Yeah. But then the liberation that came afterwards for both of us and that particular friend has responded so well in a way I never would have anticipated actually in a very loving way.
And I think sometimes just saying that you need a bit of space. Is absolutely. Okay. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that that friendship is over forever, but it does mean that there's time for reevaluation, from what you want. And often you can't, you can't process that or understand it unless you do take a step back.
So that's something that I did.
Floss: You lead by example. So it's almost like, I think Glennon Doyle says, um, there's no such thing as one way, liberation and. Every time you do something, you also liberate the other person to go find. It's almost like a Baton of liberation. And you're like, okay, now you go find what's really good for you. And I think that's the same with friendships. Is that the unconscious conscious [00:32:00] uncoupling? Yeah. Well you both set each other free to do what you actually want to do instead of this tether that exists you almost like an elastic band that's on its last edge and you just need to snip it so you can just like soar.
Yes. Um, but that, that's how I felt with friendships that have ended really nicely. 
Elizabeth: Have you ever had arguments with friends? Proper shouty?
Floss: No, me neither. 
Elizabeth: No. I mean, I don't tend to have shiesty arguments anyway, cause I'm just so repressed. 
Floss: It's really important for me to be friends with people who are still kind when they're angry. So that's not the low blows. If anyone dares to kind of bring up your moments of like your insecurity, things that you like confided in them. I read something the other day that just, it made perfect sense. It was something like when someone uses something against you in an argument, well, you haven't been doing this. Like and they use your insecurities against you. It could be anything, it could be height, it could be your weight. It could be your relationship status could be anything. Someone use that against you. If that trust is [00:33:00] almost, it cannot ever really be mended the same, because they've shown that they can use the things that you hold dearly as a weapon against you.
Elizabeth: And they haven't told you in the moment. If it bothered them, you stored it up like a squirrel storing up bitterness nuts and then they let them explode. 
Floss: Yeah. Yes. And yes, that too. And how can I have a trust you, if you won't tell me what I've done, something wrong, because I want to fucking know, and I don't want to know that there's yeah. The chestnuts being stored up! 
Elizabeth: The bitterness nuts. That sounds like a dating app. 
Floss: Okay. The bitterness nuts. Okay. Next question. My best friend started dating my brother. I love them both, but sometimes I feel the boundaries get blurry and it's put me in an uncomfortable situation. Do you have any advice? 
My first thing would be to tell them. To just tell them because neither of them might know, like we've discussed today. Women are very good at hiding when we're uncomfortable. It was, oh my God. Yeah, it's fine. You might even be telling them that you're so cool with it that you said you loved them both. I [00:34:00] assume that they love the shit out of you in return. And they would hate to think that you're going to bed at night, feeling really uncomfortable. Um, That's the only thing I would say is to communicate that if you haven't already, 
Elizabeth: I would agree with that. And I also come from a point of lived experience in that. Um, I once dated the brother of one of my closest friends and what I learned from that, is be totally unapologetic about claiming your friendship. Your friendship exists separately from their relationship. So you can absolutely continue to conduct your friendship. And it's that thing of having time, just for the two of you as friends, doing friend things like you used to do. I think that the slight issue.
As friends, you often talk about your romantic relationships, and that must be so difficult. And I, my heart really goes out to you, like my friend dealt with it so well, and I don't really know how she did it, but we know we like her brother and I broke [00:35:00] up and we're closer than ever source of because of it. Yeah. We've managed to navigate that. But, um, I think what I would say is the, this is a transitional phase and if. If it's only just started happening, just allow yourself like a good few months to settle into this transitional phase because it will pass and it will get easier. And in the end it will feel like you've gained a sister or a brother rather than losing a friend.
And so just like. Just knuckle down for these few months. Cause I, I, my heart goes out to you, but I promise you that it will get better and just be unapologetic about claiming your friendship. 
Floss: Yeah. That's really amazing advice. So almost like create the microcosm of the friendship and as separate entities.
Yeah, exactly. 
Elizabeth: Okay. Next question. I recently had a lifelong friend dumped me without an explanation. How do I go about healing from that? 
Oh, well we can both relate to that. So. The first thing I would say is to be really gentle [00:36:00] with yourself, because this is something that you will have to grieve and grief is complicated and different, and it can manifest in so many varied ways.
And for me, my personal process was very, very slow. That's not to say that I felt acute grief for months on end it's to say that it kind of came and went. I went through all the cycles of grief. Like I went through anger, I went through denial. And then I just became more at peace with it because I understood that it wasn't about me.
It was actually about her. It was about unresolved, emotional issues that she had and baggage that she carried from all of her life up to that point. And there was nothing I could have done differently. And I went through a whole phase of like, was I a good enough friend? Did I do enough? And for me, it was a sort of gradual process of her [00:37:00] distancing herself.
And that I really questioned that afterwards. I was like, should I have made more of an effort? But actually I was, I think respecting her non-verbal boundary that she needed some space. Yeah. And, and so. Uh, in the end, I just allowed myself to be at peace with it. And the way that I am at peace with it is to choose to rejoice and celebrate in the friendship that we did have 
Floss: and what you provided for each other.
Elizabeth: Exactly. At a specific time in our lives. And I think that's how you can cope with it is to understand that that friendship was only ever meant to be for a certain phase in your life. And it's taught you what you needed to know, and you can move on with love still in your heart for that person. 
Floss: That's amazing.
I went through all the stages of grief as well. The last one, acceptance, um, female friendships. We get so fucking close and I love women so much. You know, we've been talking a lot about that, the issues of female friendship, but God, female friendship is so beautiful. We have this language that most of you create the [00:38:00] universe, but this person, so when that ends, you've just got all of these inside jokes in your head, that never see the light of day again. And that is so sad because you, you create this language, you create these, these silly words that you say on these things, and you, sometimes you get, it's like a break up. You go to do something, oh, you don't get that because you're not that person and all of this stuff.
And it is allowing yourself to feel that sadness. Cause I didn't let myself feel like that for awhile. Um, because. Even with social media, you think the friendship is still alive and it's, it's really heartbreaking. So I'd say just allow yourself to be really sad to cry about it. Um, because this person probably has formed a big part of your life if you've been friends with them for years.
And yeah, for me, when I got to the acceptance part, um, I just felt calm and I just felt happy for them and for us and happy that it was over. In a way that I felt it was absolutely the best thing that could have happened because it sets you both three free and it just creates a void in your life to be filled with things that really are meant [00:39:00] for you.
I remember when I'd finally accepted a few different friendship breakups over the last few years, all of this love started pouring in, um, incredible things were happening to me and it was because I'd accepted that it wasn't for me. And then you almost just kind of just let all the good stuff come in.
And I think if you almost have that bit of hope, however bad it feels for you right now, something else is going to come and it could be work opportunity. It could be, um, someone you meet on the street, it could be a complete different friendship group. It could be a date, it could be anything but good things are going to come and fill that space that you two were meant to free up for each other so that you can have the things that were meant for the current version of you, not the version of you that met them a few years ago.
Elizabeth: A hundred percent, all of that.
And also. Treat this as an opportunity to do some self-reflection. Maybe there were things that you might have been able to do better in that friendship, but also maybe there weren't. And I think it's a really good time to sort of think about the kind of friends that you want to be and [00:40:00] the you are, but don't start from a position of like, I've done something terribly wrong because you haven't, you really haven't, you're going through something that is inevitably human and you'll be stronger.
Floss: Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. Last question. How do you make new friends as an adult outside of the bar and club scene and apps?. 
Elizabeth: What a lovely question. How'd you make friends as an adult ? 
Floss: I've started doing this thing a year ago on my Instagram, during the pandemic, I would make an Instagram post and just put the captioners, make friends and flirt in the comments and it would get thousands of comments.
And I was like, all of these women who message me have so fucking much in common. And I was like, okay, let me just make an Instagram post. And then all these people started connecting in the comments. So I know that that's not like, um, it's not a dating app and it's still, uh, using the internet to do that kind of stuff.
I think in a, in a non-digital way, it would be frequently visiting the same places, for showing up, especially if you're freelance, um, frequently visiting the same [00:41:00] cafes, getting to know the people who like to stuff your drink even, and then becoming a bit of a regular anywhere even if you shop at certain fucking charity shop, like anywhere is frequenting the same places, because that's how we made friends.
When we were younger in school and institutions, you frequent at the same places. I think it's even better if it's somewhere that you have some kind of like common interests, like maybe yeah. Like cafes, I think work really well in bookstores. 
Elizabeth: Yeah. And I think having those small interactions with the person who makes your tea or someone you walk past in the park and smiling at them and being open to having a short conversation like that is really amazing practice.
And if we want to get, woo woo about it, which I always do, is assigned to the universe that your heart is open for friendship. And so even just doing those small things can really help. Then there's all the kind of other advice about like join a book club or. Has at its core exactly what you were saying, which is the kind of similar interest [00:42:00] scape.
But I think it's that thing of starting out your day being open with that intent. And then you'll realize that friends can be find in so many different places that you never established. And also go on Florence's Instagram. 
Floss: I just, I just wanted to like, let people know that this is not something to be ashamed of, not being able to make friends.
And that's why I did it is because I know that there are so many, but I think most women actually just crave friendship with cool other women. I still walk into rooms sometimes. God that girl is so cool, she'd never fucking talk to me. And I just, that's why I made those posts because I think most women almost like assume that like you and with your best friend, you thought that she would just like, we're never going to get on because she's got all these people around her and she's so beautiful. She's glowing, and it's um, most women do crave connection with each other. I just think there's a lot of things again, in the way of that. 
Elizabeth: Exactly. Remember always that you're comparing your insides with everyone else's outsides. You can never understand. What personal battle someone's fighting [00:43:00] or how lonely they might feel or insecure.
And so that's why it's really good to just like open yourself up to the possibility of connection. 
Floss: Oh my God. I enjoyed the interview with Elizabeth so much, that was just such an incredible energy between the both of us. And, um, I find her so interesting and I absolutely love everything that she has to say.
And I really hope that this conversations focusing on friendship in terms of relationship can help you maybe have conversations like this with your friends and find ways to make your friendships more fulfilling. You don't have to resent your friends and you can choose your friends and you can learn and grow with your friends.
And I just get so much value about friendship. You can find Elizabeth Day on Instagram app, @ElizaBDay. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, don't forget, I'll be answering even more of your questions on the bonus episodes that are available. Subscribers of apple podcasts.
You can [00:44:00] ask me absolutely anything. If you want your question answered by me, you can drop me a text or a voicemail on WhatsApp on plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5. And a massive thank you to the fucking incredible black honey who compose the original theme music for my podcast. You can find them on Instagram at black honey UK, and check out their latest album called written and directed.
To keep yourself updated with all the latest episodes of they drop. You can follow exactly on apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And please take the time to rate us wherever you listen to your podcasts, give us a review. It really does help people to find us and make sure that the people who need to hear these conversations do this is a podcast from something like.
My producer is Milly Chowles. My assistant producer is Ella McLeod. Executive producer is Carly Maille, production coordinator is Lily Hambly [00:45:00] and I want to give a special thanks to our engineers, Jay Beale, Josh Gibbs, and mixing engineer Gulli Lawrence Tickell, and additional production from Chris Skinner and Teddy Riley.