EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 18: RELATIONSHIPS: Knowing a Narcissist with Dr Ramani

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello. Thank you so much for listening to exactly with me Florence given. If you've listened before, you know, the explore big things through multiple different angles, over the course of four episodes in mini series. And in this fifth and final miniseries, we're going to be exploring the subject of relationships, but don't worry season two will be happening.
As always in the fourth episode of this mini series, we're going to be opening up the conversation to. You can send me a message or a voice note with all of your relationship queries, and your dilemmas via our podcast, WhatsApp number at plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5. And just really quickly, I wanted to let you know that I've announced my first ever live show for this podcast.
Exactly will be going live in London on may the 22nd. My guest will be the one and only Munroe Bergdorf who has her own podcast. And we'll be in conversation taking your questions and having a right laugh along the way. You can go to the podcast, show london.com for more details and to buy your tickets. 
So back to today's episode, I'm joined by the incredible [00:01:00] psychologist and narcissism expert dr. Ramani. She was one of the first people that we wanted to speak on this podcast because I've been so impacted personally by her videos and her teachings. So I'm so excited to get this opportunity to sit down with her and explore the subject of narcissistic abuse. And I just really hope that you can take all the wisdom from Dr Ramani today and that her information can help you as much as it's helped me.
This mini season is all about relationships. We've looked at friendships, and explored how healthy and nourishing good relationships can be. But I really want to dive into the dark side too. The phrase toxic relationships is now commonly used all over social media to the point where it kind of doesn't mean anything anymore.
Seeing the phrase toxic relationship actually infuriates me now because it's so overused that it could be referring to literally anything. Today I want to hone in specifically with Dr. Ramani on narcissistic abuse. I really want this episode to find people who have no clue what that even is. And I want [00:02:00] it to turn their fucking world upside down because experiencing narcissistic abuse will do that to you, especially when you come out the other end of that situation, friendship or relationship. You almost kind of don't believe that people like that can exist because it's not the way that you think, and that you could never imagine doing these things to people. It completely shook my world up when I realized how calculated and manipulative some people in the world actually are.
And that all of the excuses I've been making for people in my life and their worrying behavior were actually just rationalizations because my mind just couldn't comprehend that there are people in the world who want to control others. Anytime I think I'm being too cynical about romantic love. Dr. Ramani reminds me that when it comes to gut instinct, it should never be ignored.
Her videos are so blunt to the point and they're unintentionally hilarious because of her delivery and how precise she is about narcissistic abuse. And I think that a voice like that is so fucking needed while we're encouraged to romanticise the push and pull of love and falling of love, [00:03:00] she's a licensed clinical psychologist and the author of the modern relationships, survival manual.
"Should I stay, or should I go?: surviving a relationship with a narcissist", and "Don't you know who I am, how to stay sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement, and instability". She's also a Ted speaker and youtuber who has made it her life's goal to educate inform people about the facts of narcissism. I can't fucking wait for you to listen to this episode. I really hope that it turns your fucking world upside down. 
First of all, I want to get into asking you flosses high five questions. They're questions. I ask every guest and just say the first thing that comes to your mind: what is one thing that sets your soul on fire in your life? That brings you joy?
Dr Ramani: Being with the people I love. And having a clear mind on those days being fully present with them. 
Floss: Okay. So quality time. And stuff's very important to you?
Dr Ramani: With the people I care about you. 
Floss: Okay. Okay. If you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life, a look that would define you [00:04:00] forever. What would that outfit be?
Dr Ramani: I hate to say it it's these like elastic waist kind of slouchy pants and this, um, it's LA we have to be, we have to be in layers with a lovely cotton t-shirt under that. And this really, um, and this beautiful, you would call jumper in the UK sweater. We call it sweater over that, like the looser the better.
Floss: Okay, nice. Uh, what's something that people frequently misunderstand or get wrong about you. 
Dr Ramani: Am I allowed to curse? 
Floss: Yes, of course. 
Dr Ramani: Oh they think I'm a bitch. That's, you know, that they, um, I'm I can, I'm very introverted. So I come off as a little bit closed off and, um, I talk about all this narcissism stuff and I tell everyone fairy tales aren't true. So I'm a bitch. 
Floss: Yeah, I got the same. Um, when I published my book, I get called a bitch by mostly men, um, on the internet. So I feel you on that one. Um, could you please finish this sentence? [00:05:00] I'm still a work in progress when it comes 
Dr Ramani: I'm still a work in progress when it comes to learning how to have fun.
Floss: Wow. 
Okay. When was the last time that you majorly embarrassed yourself or cringed at yourself? 
Dr Ramani: Um, that would be a couple of days ago. I was in a session with someone and I was using a word that I recognize could be misinterpreted as a really, um, biased word, and I never wanted to hurt this person. And I literally felt like I was going to throw up. Cause I'm so careful in my language, in this case, it was like a throwaway word and it was making a point. And I think I was trying to say something close to it, but the other one came out and for the rest of the conversation, I was mortified and I was barely able to listen to what this person had to say.
Floss: Oh my God. 
Yes. Yeah. I've had that before and you just like replay it in your head over and over.
I see you talk a lot about narcissism and how this is almost like an [00:06:00] age of narcissism. Do you feel then that social media. Bread narcissism or has it just become a playground for it to be showcased of what was already there? 
Dr Ramani: It's such a great question. Florence. I think there's two pieces happening there.
This idea of narcissism has always been around. Right. We look at like any, any culture that was hierarchical and there were people who had more power. There's always, this has always been there. We didn't start using the word until the last a hundred, 150 years, but it's always been there now because we know that a key element of narcissism is validation seeking.
They always need to be told you're so great. You're so this, what I've really seen is that once upon a time, when a narcissistic person needed validation, They'd actually have to get up and leave the house. They'd have to go to work. They'd have to be active in their community. They had to leave the house or, you know, be with other people to get validation, then came social media.
What it did was it created [00:07:00] this mechanism where people could simply seek attention and validation from the comfort of their own home. And that's really what narcissistic people use it for. They use it to get validated. They use it to get admiration. They use it to be vindictive. They use it for every psychological need a narcissist has, has social media is made for it.
And how do you get more eyes on you? And social media is doing more. And I hate to say it meaner things. A lot of the time, like saying really mean. The Landish things. People look at that and they click on it. The person who's willing to put more and more time into getting more and more attention, which is the core of narcissism is now making more and more money.
That is a huge change in the global economy in the last 20 years. 
Floss: What's really interesting is that I've, I've watched so many of your videos and read so many books on narcissism and narcissists rely on reactions and supply and what you're describing. Is that they drum up the behavior on social media.
And what does that elicit more [00:08:00] reactions and more supply? I know what narcissistic suppliers, because I've watched your videos, but could you explain more in detail what narcissistic supply is in a relationship and how narcissists choose their victims? Because I've also seen you speak a lot about how narcissists hate people who won't hand over supply 
to them.
Dr Ramani: Correct. So narcissistic supply in its most simple form is the validation and the admiration that narcissistic people get from other people. The most clear examples of that would be things like you're so great. You're so pretty. You're the coolest. You're so awesome. But it goes beyond that supply can also be, for example, somebody wanting an incredibly attractive partner, right?
So they get narcissistic supply from every body envying them them for having a really hot partner. So that's another form of supply supply can also come from having fancy things, a fancy car, a fancy bag, fancy shoes live in a fancy neighborhood, go on big vacations, same thing for narcissistic people. A huge source of supply is the [00:09:00] idea that other.
Envy them and so that they want people to covet their lives. And so that becomes another source of supply, but not all supply is so praisy. Some supply is that they also like fighting with people. So they'll bait people, they'll say things to get them inflamed, and then that person will get into a fight with.
Narcissistic people love fighting healthy people. Usually often don't like conflict that much, but narcissistic people love it. So they'll draw a person into a conflict. They'll get that other person all whipped up and frothed up and that's supply for them too. Would you say 
then the reactions are supply?
Reactions are huge supply. And that's why that dynamic of baiting is so important to understand in the narcissistic relationship. Once you understand that dynamic and you don't give into it, you're really well on your way to being able to beat the narcissist at their own game. And so yes, they do choose.
And I'm not even going to use the word victim because I hate the word victim. I think it puts the [00:10:00] person who's in that relationship in such a passive role, let's call them experiencers the experiencer of the narcissist. Okay. A narcissistic relationship is a grooming process. 
Floss: Could you explain how you would spot someone in that situation?
So what are some of the towels you're in that situation? You've walked into a room. I know you've explained before. Uh, charisma is something like the over charisma you've described it before is almost being like too much cologne. It's masking something. 
Dr Ramani: I would say red flags are people who are almost too charming, too smooth.
Um, very silver tongued, charisma is another huge one. Like not all charismatic people are narcissistic by the way, but somebody who is so much the center of attention and so magnetic a presence, right. Why D why, why are you like this? So I'm suspicious of that. People who are very, very, very braggy of their compliments in a way that doesn't show awareness of other people, people who sort of hijack the [00:11:00] conversation and make it always about them.
And the minute the other person starts talking, then they are, they completely. They almost tune out or they're looking at their phone or they're looking out the window. There's sort of a disconnect.
Floss: I always say to people who don't understand relationship abuse, that no one falls in love with the monster.
No one falls in love with the person that physically hurts them or tells them what they can. And can't do no one falls in love with the person that gaslights. Then we fall in love with. Image that they sold us at the beginning. And that's what you're talking about. Isn't it? It's about the love bombing.
Could you talk more about the love bombing being one of the tactics that narcissists use? 
Dr Ramani: So love bombing is the term we use to capture the very unique form of idealization and seduction that characterizes the early part of a narcissistic relationship. Now in the classical love bombing, it's a very outlandish over the top extravagant kind of courtship, like, um, really, really like great. We're going to go to the [00:12:00] restaurant. No one can get to, I've got these great front row tickets to this concert. I'm renting a limo and we're going to go all over town. Oh, it's only our fourth date. Let's go to Paris. Like it's big, big, big there's flowers that show up in gifts that show up and scavenger hunts for your birthday.
People say. Well, Dr. Ramani, that just sounds romantic. If you're lucky, maybe it is, but in the majority of cases, all that big, big, big, exciting spendy, extravagant courtship it's again, back to the bad cologne, it's masking something. And what happens is in the midst of all that excitement and oftentimes not always Florence, not always, but in these loved bomby situations.
Things sometimes move a little too quickly. Like you're spending so much time with this person to the, maybe the detriment of work or even the detriment of friendships. You know, they're talking about moving in like, oh, my lease is up. Well, why are we going to keep renting separate places? And you feel things are moving real fast.
And they're saying like, oh, really, you're going to go and start that new, uh, pro program at university. [00:13:00] And you're like, oh God, I've dreamed about this for years, but I've met my person and I'm having my. The minute a person talks about their relationship in terms of a fairytale. We're probably dealing with a love bomb.
And so it is a, it is an over the top many times intense kind of experience. And what happens during love bombing? Is it blinds you to the red flags or what happens is you rationalize the red flags? That's what tends to happen? Wow. They're always interrupting me. Oh. But my gosh, I'm being too sensitive. I, I I'm in a fairytale like who, who tries to out-think prince charming.
Everyone should be. And so there's so much focus on, oh, another dozen roses showed up that the person isn't paying attention to, well, this person is late a lot, or they're always interrupting me, or they actually are really invalidating when I talk to them about. Goals I have, and they kind of talk to me like I'm a five-year-old child.
Well, what's happening is you're justifying the bad stuff because you want to keep the good [00:14:00] stuff. But that justification, it addresses this bigger theme in narcissistic relationships called cognitive dissonance, which is a really fancy word for inconsistency. People don't like inconsistent stuff. They don't like that they're that this person they think is dazzling is a jerk, right?
So we want the jerk part to go away. So how do we take care of that? We just. Yeah. And so now we're just left with dazzling, but the problem is the jerk is just as real. And in fact, a jerk is more real than the dazzling when love mommy has done and usually love bombing and last anywhere from six weeks to four months, it depends on the relationship.
In few rare cases, I've heard of love bombing lasting a year, but somewhere between six weeks and four months, The, I love you start getting said a person's like, well, maybe this fairy tale is real. And you're like, okay, well let's just settle into a relationship. The minute, the minute the narcissistic person knows you're all in.
That's when we start the devaluing phase and there's going to be a lot more gaslighting, a lot more invalidation, comparing you to other people, all of that. But the love bombing is a hook. It's [00:15:00] the thing that gets people in. And it's a very dangerous phase because it's where people start to justify.
Floss: I've found one of your videos on covert narcissism. I didn't even know what narcissism was. And you were talking about the techniques of covert narcissism. And you said that if you find yourself recording conversations, run, you're dealing with a narcissist. And that was my introduction to you through your videos and covert narcissism.
And I felt like the hardest thing is that it's so sophisticated. And through these rationalizations that you're talking about, It's like their emotional intelligence of your empathy and how you work just to get some more sophisticated, the more you justify and rationalize because they learn what they can't get away with anymore.
And then they learn more how to get you to feel small. But for example, let's say he's not going to talk down to you anymore, but he will point you out in front of your friends at parties. So they'll find other ways to make you feel small that aren't in line [00:16:00] with what they've done before. And that's. I had learned through your videos and what you're saying about once they know that you're all in, I've had so many horror stories about people with a narcissist and then when they're married, that's when the mask comes off because they know that you're all in. And yeah, I just, I know that your videos are a lifeline to some people and they definitely helped me understand what I was going through at the time. 
Dr Ramani: No, I appreciate that. But I do think that that when many, many people they'll say I'm just going to put my voice recorder on.
I'll even be in my pocket. And the minute you're doing that, not only are you likely in a relationship with a narcissist you're being guests. Because it's the gaslighting that leads you to doubt your own reality or deny do somebody basically to, I never said that I never did that. And you're thinking, okay, maybe my memory is wrong.
And so, and that's where people go through old text messages, right. There it is. It's amazing to me, how many times people say, oh no, yes you did. And they'll play the recording to the narcissistic person. Say, you see, you just said it and you know what the narcissist does then when you play them back the recording or you show them the text message instead of [00:17:00] saying, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
You're right. I D they'll say, what kind of Teddy person are you that you feel the need to record conversations? What are you paranoid like? Oh, you must be mentally ill. And they use that as an opportunity to even further take up. This person whose reality they're dismantling, there's no winning in these relationships.
Uh, what are the red flags, would you say, aside from recording your own conversations, would you say that signal, someone might be in a narcissistic relationship? 
One is, is that they're very reactive and very, they're what, it's what I call a reactive sensitivity. They're very reactive when you give them any form of feedback or even something that could be.
Possibly viewed as a critique and it wasn't at all. Like, for example, you could say something to them like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad you wore that sweater. You look great in it. I saw you wearing it last week and they'll say something like, what are you trying to say that I don't have that many [00:18:00] clothes? Are you T are you telling me I'm broke?
Is that what you're saying? You know, to hell with you. And you'll be like, oh my gosh, I was just complimenting on their sweater. Right. And so. It's it's it's yes, it's a perpetual victim, but it's this incredibly reactive sensitivity to feedback. However, they will dish that feedback out all the time. So it's a very one way street.
It's very hypocritical. They can say whatever they want to anyone. And if somebody pushes back and says, well, that hurt, they'll say, oh my gosh, you're so sensitive. But if you ever told them, they're sensitive. They will blow up like, like fireworks. And so that's another big one that you can often see quite early.
Another is that narcissistic people have this incredible ability to always keep people on edge. People in narcissistic relationships often feel like they have to keep doing things to when the narcissistic person over like. Oh, gosh, how do I get the, we had such a great night last night, but [00:19:00] not today.
There's a lot of inconsistency. So there's a belief on the side of the person in the relationship that they can do things to win the person over. Then another big one is interrupting and not listening. My favorite narcissistic play is that they will, they'll be talking blah, blah, blah, about themselves.
And then you're like, oh, they're sharing so much about themselves. They must want to hear about me. So you start talking. To them about yourself. And now they're no longer interested. They're looking at their phone, they're looking out the window, they're fooling with their fork. So these are the sorts of things we see.
Floss: Yeah. And on that note, can, can you please give, uh, an example or a definition of what gaslighting is and what it isn't.
Dr Ramani: So gaslighting is the, the denial of another person's reality and then the portrayal of that person as having something wrong with them. Okay. So what I mean by that is that it would be somebody shares a feeling or an experience you're being way too [00:20:00] sensitive.
You know, there's something wrong with you. Like you always take everything. So personally that's an example of gaslighting. Not only are you denying the reality of their feeling. They're going a step further and saying, there's something wrong with you. Then another example of gaslighting would be you're talking to someone they'll say, I never said that.
I never promised that. And you'd say, no, you did. In fact, I have here an email somewhere where you wrote this, you know, There is something not quite right about you, you get so obsessed with these sort of like making it about a promise and everything. Like we're having a conversation. I don't think I've promised you anything.
Like you're really intense and weird. 
Floss: Like, wow. Yeah. Even hearing you say all of this is a lot, because it's so accurate. 
Dr Ramani: It's not just the denial. It's the denial is step one that never happened, I never said that, you're being too sensitive, you're making too big a deal out of this. You always exaggerate everything.
Right? So you're denying the other person's reality. Remember nobody ever gets to tell [00:21:00] somebody, they'll say, oh, another big gaslighting term is you have no right to feel that way too, which I'd be like, right? Like, what is it? I need a right to have a feeling. Feelings are feelings. If two people were sitting in the same room and one person says I'm very hot. And one person says I'm very cold. They're both right. Cause that's a subjective sense. But many times a narcissistic person will say, you can't be too warm. but they just said. They're too warm. It's their body gaslighting also has an interpersonal control piece to it as well. But it is to the point where if a person and gaslighting doesn't have a one-time, it happens hundreds of times.
And then over time, the other person in the relationship either has to get up and leave. Right? Yeah. You know what you think I'm crazy. So this isn't going to work and you leave. Okay. So that's the checkmate, but people who stay in order to stay, they end up buying into the gas lighters version of reality.
And then that's almost like what you see in sort of cult indoctrination. They almost are just sort of agreeing blindly to what's happening in the relationship that, [00:22:00] that shows me long-term gaslighting. 
Floss: That was going to be my next question to you. I've seen narcissistic abuse be described as a two person cult.
It really summarized it for me because also I wouldn't listen to a word that my friends were telling me while I was in the relationship a bit like a cult. You feel like they're trying to pull you away from this amazing thing. That's actually saving you a bit, like some really dark religious areas. And so when, even if people can see that you are in it. You can't get the person out. And what advice would you have for someone whose friend was in a narcissistic abusive relationship and how best to support that person without pushing them further away? 
Dr Ramani: What you don't want to do is you don't want to hit someone else over the head with it, right?
So if somebody strolls up to someone and say, Hey, your, your partner's a narcissist. People are like, what are you talking about? Don't diagnose my partner or stay in your lane or whateverthey'd say, right? You can't hit someone over the head. I always say to people, if you see that your friend is in a relationship where it sounds like [00:23:00] there's a lot of gaslighting, a lot of manipulation, your friend always feels off balance.
The best place to start is, are you okay? I'm a little worried about you. You know, I'm noticing there'll always be some change you've noticed in them. They've become more isolated. They're having more trouble at work. They've um, maybe they've lost weight. A lot of people in narcissistic relationships are stressed out of their mind.
So they, they do, or they lose weight because they think that they need to do that to keep the narcissist around. But to say I'm a little, I am worried about you, is everything okay? So you can. Yeah, you can point to the changes. So, you know, I'm noticing, like we're not seeing you around as much, or you were so into that thing, you were doing new activity, you're doing like what happened.
And then initially the person will deny, deny, deny and say, okay, okay. Now another thing you can do is if you actually, in real time, let's say you're out to dinner or out to a bar or something like that. And the, the narcissistic person is, is you really see an episode of gaslighting or manipulation or invalidation right in front of you. Take your friend aside and [00:24:00] say, Hey, listen, I don't want to get in your business, but I'm, I'm a little worried about you. I saw what happened. Are you okay? By asking, are you okay, instead of saying that was messed up. And blah blah blah him saying, are you okay? What that person will often say, no, no, I'm fine. I'm fine.
But you've planted a seed and you're saying, I see you. What I just saw wasn't. Okay. And that idea of some, and that's actually one of the most potent ways to break the Gaslight. One other person looking into the situation. And like, if let's say it happened in a work situation, And someone's gaslighting- the narcissistic person's part of a work team.
And they're gaslighting someone. The most powerful thing is as someone else in a meeting says, ah, that's not what they said. And they actually that person being gaslighted at someone behind them, it often breaks the cycle right then and there. So it is that not that you go up and say, you need to break up with this person. You never want to give someone something actionable. You hoping they break up with them. 
Floss: Of course. 
Dr Ramani: Um, but when they are, when you [00:25:00] first observe it. You do say things like, are you okay? I'm a little worried about you or we've noticed this change. I just want to check in and make sure everything's okay.
Initially your friend is always going to say, everything's fine. You've planted a little seed saying some of us, I am seeing something, something doesn't seem good here. That seed may not take, they may not sprout for months, maybe even years. But what you don't want to do is sit back silently and you also don't want to be- you don't want to lay out a demand. Like you've got to get out of this because most people find that overwhelming and they're so trauma bonded they're. So in this cognitively dissonant justifying space that if you hit them like that, they'll not be able to, um, th they'll say you, you, you don't care about me. And they'll often isolate further from you. 
Floss: With the, um, in regards to trauma bonding. Can you talk a bit more about trauma bonding as well? Because that's another time that I've seen used on social media. That's um, Being introduced to like the popular [00:26:00] lexicon. And it's now being used as a way to just talk about two people, discussing trauma as like a trauma bond.
And that's obviously not what it is at all. So can you please clarify what trauma bonding is and explain the cycle of the degradation and the love bombing? 
Dr Ramani: It is an unhealthy relationship. That's often created on the basis sometimes of a person's life history. So they're, they're often trying to work through a prior relationship.
Maybe they had a narcissistic or negating or invalidating parent, and they're going to get it right this time. Right. Okay. But a trauma bonded relationship has very specific kinds of qualities to it. Trauma bonded relationships tend to be very volatile. There's a lot of get together, break up, get together, break up.
And that keeps this almost excitement cycle. In a trauma bonded relationship over time, a person. More and more concerned about sharing their feelings because they don't want to set off usually the more high conflict narcissistic person in a trauma bonded relationship, a [00:27:00] person feels like they have to be everything to their partner. Their personal assistant, their driver, their cheerleader, their sex partner, their house cleaner, their chef, a person takes on more and more roles for that person.
Sometimes. So that they, they don't lose them. There can be infidelity. There can be comparison to other people talking about other people, inappropriate behavior on social media or other sort of electronic spaces, inappropriate boundaries with everything from servers and restaurants to coworkers. Trauma, bonded relationships keep people consistently off balance. And so it's almost like it takes up more and more and more mental real estate. A final part of a trauma bonded relationship. Is that the way the person talks about the relationship is very magical. We have a magical connection. The minute I hear magical connection. I'm like, ah, we're dealing with a trauma bonded relationship because it doesn't mean anything. When a person says, what do you like about that? When I ask them, I ask clients this all the time, what do you like about this person? Or what's the magical connection? They're [00:28:00] like, oh, I don't know. It's just like, it's just like this something like I'm, like, you're saying nothing. I am looking for things like we have common values. We have common interests. This person has respect for me. They're incredibly kind. I could work with that, but this, I don't know. It's just something it's like magical and it's like a past life and we're like twin flames. I'm like what? I, you know, it's nonsense. You know, and when, when I hear magical connection, that to me is a ringer.
We're often dealing with it, soulmates, things like that. Those things tend to be a sign of a trauma bonded relationship. 
Floss: And that that's everything that we're encouraged to pursue as well. Isn't it? So everything. I imagine a lot of people find you cynical because you're so counter narrative to what we're being taught. Like these Disney princess movies and everything like that.
We're taught to find the charisma. We're taught to find the spark. We're taught that love and hurt come from the same person and all of this kind of stuff. So I imagine that it's you come up against a lot of people who think that you're being. [00:29:00] Which is why I find you a breath of fresh air. 
Dr Ramani: I'm actually called far, far worse words all the time, but I will tell you this. One of my goals. And when I started doing this work and I'm realizing it is the impossible goal, sadly is prevention. I want to stop people from doing this in the first place. Don't cause getting into these relationships really does a number on people and we'll oftentimes see sort of long-term psychological ramifications because people will say what's the anti trauma bond.
I'll tell you what the anti trauma bond is, is oftentimes relationships that start slowly, even from a place of friendship where respect is daily. If this person is having trouble, when they can't get into the nightclub they want, and they're throwing a tantrum, do you really think this person's going to stay up all night with a crying child?
I'm going with no. Yeah. And there's no magical connection there. So yeah. So you got to understand how to cut your losses. I'd say to some people, if you could discipline yourself, write out that six weeks of love bombing and get out good for you. The problem is narcissistic people. Don't like to be played. And so [00:30:00] the, each subsequent day you're in that relationship, narcissists hate abandonment.
So this idea that you try to break up with them and you try to pull away from them, they will do what we call hoovering, which is they try to suck you back in it's they, they will, they will play on your vulnerabilities. They will play on your strengths and that pulling you back in using every technique in the book is something, a lot of people aren't strong enough to, to manage.
And again, we're talking about this a lot from the perspective. A very heteronormative paradigm. I want people to understand all, everything I'm saying applies. I don't care if you're queer. I don't care if you're trans. I don't care if you're straight. I know this is in every relationship. There are narcissistic women. There are narcissistic men. There are narcissistic people who are non-binary there's all of it out there.
Floss: Okay. So Dr. Ramani I've asked my followers on Instagram to send in some questions and dilemmas that they have about that relationship issues. And if you wouldn't mind helping me onto some of them, that'd be [00:31:00] great. We have one here, are love bombers narcissists, or can people who aren't narcissists, love bomb?
Dr Ramani: Not all of bombers are narcissists. I think insecure people tend to be loved bombers. I think there's some people out there that don't recognize that they're lovable just for themselves. So they feel like they have to do all of these outlandish gestures to win someone over doesn't necessarily mean those folks are narcissistic.
So I think all narcissists love bomb in some form, but not all loved bombers are narcissistic. 
Floss: Okay. Here's another question. How do I heal from a narcissistic parent? 
Dr Ramani: Healing from a narcissistic parent is a lot more complicated because this is a, not a relationship you chose. Right. And it shaped a lot of who you are.
And so part of it is number one above all else is to not blame yourself. Many people come out of a relationship with a narcissistic parent feeling as though they're not enough. And there's a lot of grief around sort of a childhood that wasn't as good as it could have been a childhood where the person wasn't validated, [00:32:00] wasn't seen, wasn't heard wasn't cherished often we're having to live in the parent's agenda.
So I think the first thing is to recognize there was a period of grief. When you recognize you had a narcissistic parent grieving, not getting the childhood you wanted, um, men, the next step becomes. How are you going to fit this person into your life? Not everyone wants to go no contact with a parent or even low contact with a parent.
And I understand that, right? So it comes down to how are you going to set boundaries? Some people will find out that, you know what, I'm no longer going to share my aspirations with my parents. Every time they make fun of them. And then I hold myself back. I'm not going to tell my parent I'm doing something until I'm fully established in it.
They may set boundaries around how often they visit them, how often they talk to them, the kinds of things they share in conversations, healing from a narcissistic relationship is very intentional. It's also about having realistic expectations. This parent isn't going to magically change. I didn't, you've known them your whole life, they've always been the same. And finally it comes down to radical acceptance. The one thing we know [00:33:00] about narcissistic personalities is they really don't change that much. In most cases, they don't change at all. It's a very resistant to change personality style, if you will. And so you always know what you're going to get.
And I think a child always expected it to be different. Maybe today they're going to get her maybe to. And that's never going to happen. And the radical acceptance has a period of grief associated with it, but then what you learn is some people actually find that there were other older adults in their life that mattered a grandparent, an aunt and uncle.
They have other mentors in their life that step into a parental role going into therapy. And letting go of some of that, because the key is to understand just because you had a narcissistic parent, it doesn't mean you're damaged, or it's going to ruin your life forever. It's just about understanding it fully, because I actually think in many ways it can make you very, very wise in terms of human relationships, but the key is to not personalize it.
You did not ask for that. This is the parent you got, but you are not defined by it. 
Floss: What words of wisdom then would you [00:34:00] have for someone who's still in a position of convincing themselves and others in their life? That X person, mum, dad, brother, sister. Uh, is going to change because that, that's something I said to myself and it's what, anyone in a narcissistic abusive relationship, when you go through that trauma bond of, okay, they did this bad thing, but I really want the good days back.
And they're making promises of therapy and change. What would you say to someone who was still in that place where they believe that they, even though they have the power to change? That narcissist in their life. 
Dr Ramani: Right? So a number one, I'm gonna say, it's not going to happen, right. So I'm just going to, I'm going to pop that balloon right from your sink today.
I'm going to stare out my Western window and I'm waiting for the sun to rise because the day that sun's going to rise in the west, I'm like good luck with that, you know? And so, um, it's never going to happen. The sun is never going to rise in the west and this person is. Going to change. The thing you're talking about Florence is something called future faking narcissistic people, always future fake.
They say, they're going to change. They say, they're going to go into therapy. They say, next year, [00:35:00] it's going to be different. They say their stress is going to come down a bit a bit. After this deadline, they say that they're never going to do these things on social media. Again, they promise and promise and promise.
None of it ever happens. Make a list of all the broken promises. It can help a person see. Big mountain of evidence that this is never going to change. And in a way that predictability, while it hurts, there's also a comfort in it. I know that sun's going to rise in the east every day, so I might want to close that curtain.
So it doesn't wake me up. It gives me some sense of command over the situation. I know this person is going to invalidate me every year on my birthday. So here's a thought has about, I don't spend my birthday with them anymore. You got to grieve it. You got to let it go. Sometimes it's a ritual that sometimes talking about it in therapy, you got to let that piece go.
Probably the most primary ingredient that keeps people stuck in narcissistic relationships and to keep getting hurt is hope that it's going to change. It's not going to change. 
Floss: Okay. Why am I only attracted to narcissists? and, why do I always find myself dating [00:36:00] them? 
Dr Ramani: It's almost like sort of this trauma bonded push.
Many times narcissistic relationships can feel like a place where somebody is working through a prior issue. Oftentimes like an unavailable parent, right? They, they, they they want to win over the unavailable partner or the unavailable parent in the, in the unavailable partner. Like I'm going to, I'm going to get it right this time sort of thing.
These are the same folks who, when they meet somebody who's not narcissistic will say, well, I don't feel a magic connection. I don't feel any connection I'm bored. And that to me is often a sign that when people who are go from narcissistic relationship to narcissistic relationship, and then they meet someone, they say, they're bored.
I'm like, can we. Give this a shot because this boredom is often because all that trauma bonded stuff that volatility, you know, the rollercoaster, all of that isn't happening. This is the reason why Florence, and I know at your age, it probably seems really overwhelming to suggest this, but I suggest this to people, whether they're 20 or 80, which is that I say you need a 12 month detox after a narcissistic [00:37:00] breakup.
And by 12 month detox I mean, no dating, no relationship, ideally no sex because I think the reason a lot of people get into these relationships is they never value themselves enough to get themselves to know them, to their preferences. Like, Hey, yes, you do like watching films with subtitles. So somebody rolls around and says, films with subtitles are dumb. This is probably not your person. You know, when a person is invalidating, you like you feel sick. It's like, it's like living in a place where there's like a chemical smell all the time. And when you're living without it. Remember that feeling when people jump from relationship to relationship to relationship, they're at much more risk of continually picking narcissists.
And then it also comes down to a person's narratives because the people sometimes actually kind of get addicted to their own narratives. Like I want the handsome person, I want the person who is six foot two. I always say people. Date on the basis of a list. Like I've got my list, they have to be this, they have to do this.
They have to [00:38:00] look like this. They have to have gone here. They have to done that. Those people are significantly more likely to choose narcissist. If you're going to have a list, that list should be compassionate, respect. Kindness mutuality shared values. That should be your list. But unfortunately, most people's lists are, how tall are they?
What color is their hair? Do they go to the gym? You know, did they go to this place on holiday? Where did they go to school? What do they drive? What neighborhood do they live in? What job do they have? How much do they make? If that's your list, you might as well just put a sign around your neck saying, Hey, all narcissists, come apply here.
Floss: One more question. How do you make a narcissist see that, that behavior is harmful to those around them? 
Dr Ramani: Yeah, you don't write your question. You know, you don't ever try to convince other people someones narcissistic and you never try to you never try to school a narcissist. You really, really don't.
Once you've got that information, you're not using this to change them. You're using it to change you.[00:39:00] 
Floss: Wow. 
I have wanted to talk to Dr. Ramani for years. Um, like I said, in the intro to this episode. Oh my God. She is so fucking wise. She's so blunt, she's so unapologetic in her approach to these kinds of topics. And I really hope that even if you haven't been through narcissistic abuse before this episode is going to inform you and help you to spot these behaviors in the future because if you're like me, I have a history of just excusing people's behaviors all the time, because I want to see the best in people. And I think that learning that some people genuinely do not have the capacity to treat human beings with empathy. It really helps you to just learn how to deal with them.
And choose to not deal with these people and hopefully spot them before they enter your lives. Thank you so much for listening. You can follow Dr. Ramani on Instagram and YouTube at Dr. Ramani. That's Dr. R a M a N I, and if you've enjoyed today's episode, don't forget, I'll be answering even more of [00:40:00] your questions on the bonus episodes that are available.
Subscribers of apple podcasts. You can ask me absolutely anything. If you want new question on set by me, you can drop me a text or a voicemail on WhatsApp on the plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5. And a massive thank you to the fucking incredible black honey who compose the original theme music for my podcast.
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It really does help people to find us and make sure that the people who need to hear this conversations do this is a podcast from something. My producer is Milly Chowles. My assistant [00:41:00] producer is Ellen McLeod. Executive producer is Carly Maille. Production coordinator is Lily Hambly, and I want to give a special thanks to our engineers. Jay Beale, Josh Gibbs and mixing engineer Gulli Lawrence Tickell, and additional production from Chris Skinner and Teddy Riley.