EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 19: RELATIONSHIPS: Possessiveness and Polyamory with Polyphilia

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello. Thank you so much for listening to Exactly with me Florence Given. In this Podcast. I explore big themes from multiple angles. So far with, to sex feminism, body image, social media, and in this fifth and final series, we're looking at relationships. There's so much to talk about with the subject, our relationships with ourselves and each other is basically what makes us who we are and our relationship with ourselves to find every single other relationship that we have.
I just, I could talk about relationships for ever.
Next week. It's the final part of this mini series and of season one. And we're going to be opening up the conversation to you. I'm going to be joined by relationship expert, Todd Baratz, to answer as many of your relationship, queries and questions as we can. If you want those answered, send me a message or voice note via our podcast whatsapp number plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5.
And just really quickly, I wanted to let you all know that I've announced my first ever live show for this podcast. Exactly it we'll be going live in London on may the [00:01:00] 26th. My guest will be the one and only Munroe Bergdorf. We'll be live in conversation, taking your questions and having a right laugh along the way.
You can go to the podcast, show london.com for more details and to buy tickets. But back to today's episode, I'm so excited about this one. Today I'm joined by the brilliant Leanne who runs a blog and Instagram account called poly failure to talk all about ethical non-monogamy. This is going to be so interesting and I can't fucking wait.
So today we're going to be looking at non-monogamous relationships with the founder of the polyphilia blog, Leanne. It's not something I have any personal experience in myself. I have friends who are non-monogamous I've dated people who are non-monogamous, but I'm still just endlessly fascinated by the subject.
It's something that I feel is on the rise. The more that we learn about queerness, or we learn about gender roles, more, the rural kind of throwing the rule, book out the window for what romantic love looks like and what it can look like for us. And I'm so excited to learn more about it as someone who [00:02:00] is monogamous, I can't even really say why I'm monogamous.
It's like my last thing where I don't know why I feel this way. And I'd really like to understand and learn about it. The unstarted hub blog, which obviously is insight. To non-monogamy in 2020. And since then she's getting over 160,000 followers, which shows just how much people are now considering trying out non-monogamy or are doing it themselves?
I think it's brilliant that people are questioning and challenging these mainstream narratives that we're sold throughout our lives and that's exactly what I set out to do on this podcast. I want to break out the echo chamber, and I want to hear new ideas and fresh perspectives, although non-monogamy is becoming much more widely accepted.
There's still a world of misinformation out there about the subject, especially the stuff I've heard, especially the stuff I've seen. I just want to talk to someone who is engaging in it. And the ad has been engaging in non monogamy for years. And I want to hear about what it's actually like, even with some of my friends, I feel like it's not appropriate to ask everything about it.[00:03:00] 
So to be in this position where, you know, Leanne knows that she's coming on the show to answer all of my burning questions is really exciting to me. Okay, Leanne, thank you so much for coming on my show. Exactly. I can't wait to talk to you today before we get into everything. I want to ask you my five questions.
My quickfire questions. I ask all of my guests. Just say the first thing that comes to your mind. Okay. Question number one. What's one thingthat sets your soul on fire. 
Polyphilia: Um, a really good date. Uh, so just yeah, meeting new people, making meaningful connections, um, and good sex to boot. Yeah. 
Floss: What's your definition of a good date?
Is it one that ends in sex or is it something that just leaves you feeling incredible? 
Polyphilia: Um, I like, I usually have sex on the first date, um, because I think it's quite important to me and in my relationships. And so, yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, people are always like, oh, you know, wait until the third date. And I'm like, why?
Like it's important to me. I need to get it out the way, because if [00:04:00] you're shit in bed then like, I'm not going to continue seeing you. 
Floss: Okay, next question. If you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life and look that would define you forever. Leanne, what would you wear? 
Polyphilia: Oh my God. If I'll be honest, I've never particularly been into fashion.
Um, I mostly just focus on whatever's comfortable and practical, but, uh, having said that in my current wardrobe, I do have a lot of pink blue purple. Um, so it would probably be something and those colors. So like I'm basically a walking bisexual flag.
[laughter] um, yeah, so I have a lot of those. Yeah. Okay. 
Floss: Gotta let 'em know! Nice. Okay. Next question. What's something that people frequently misunderstand or get wrong about you. 
Polyphilia: So some people including my own partner, actually, when he first met me, they found me intimidating. When they first met me, they found me quite intense. Like I can see why, because it's largely down to the fact that like, I'm quite confident and I'm like a fairly open book, emotionally speaking, and also I'm autistic.
And so sometimes I like [00:05:00] forget to emote with my face or like use the right tone of voice. And so like, if I forget to do that, then I come across as very blunt. But, but like, yeah. I mean, the reality is like, I'm just, I think I'm just very honest and direct as a person and that kind of can unnerve, some people, but like, I'm just, I'm very extroverted.
I enjoy connecting with people. Um, and I think like people just find out, like I just chill out over time. 
Floss: Okay, next question. Finish this sentence. I'm still a work in progress. When it comes 
Polyphilia: ... 
To relationships. I don't think that growing ever stops and I don't think it should. Right. I think that's kind of the nice thing about like life and kind of, you know, connection and stuff like that.
So, yeah, I think, I think relationships, you know, I think everyone's just trying to figuring themselves out. 
Floss: Yeah. Okay, gorgeous. Yes next question. The last question. When was the last time you majorly 
cringed at yourself.
Okay. So 
Polyphilia: I think it must have been like this morning, actually, like I kind of had a flashback to when I was 11.
I had a classmate at a birthday party and, um, we decided to go paintballing and it's the [00:06:00] first and only time I've ever been paint balling. And I will explain why. I wasn't told that it was two teams. Like I thought it was every man for himself. Um, and so basically I ended up like during the paintball session, I ended up shooting everyone on my team and they got really pissed off at me.
Floss: like, you only just caught up with the joke today. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. Literally like there's so many moments like that where like, I was just like socially awkward and just autistic and you know, I look back at it and I go, oh my God, how did that just go over my head at the time? So I have a lot of moments like that. Basically. 
Floss: Looking back with a fresh lens. 
Polyphilia: Yes. Yeah. Well, you know, I think if you cringe at your past self, it means you've grown right.
Floss: So Leanne can you please define the terms, polyamory, polygamy, and ethical non-monogamy and what the differences between the three? 
Polyphilia: Sure. Polyamory comes from the Greek and Latin roots. Poly and armories are literally. Multiple loves or many loves. It means like, you know, having kind of multiple loving relationships with everyone's knowledge and consent [00:07:00] and it's under the umbrella of non-monogamy.
Um, some people say ethical non-monogamy some people say consensual non-monogamy. I personally think those prefixes are like a bit superfluous. So I just say no monogamy. Yeah. So polyamory specifically kind of multiple loving relationships, whereas like non-monogamy as a whole can include, um, kind of multiple sexual relationships or one romantic relationship and multiple sexual ones and just, you know, anything that is not a monogamous relationship.
Polygamy, poly gamy means multiple marriage. So, you know, literally the kind of the act of being married to multiple people, which is currently illegal in most parts of the world. And also traditionally speaking polygamy usually refers to one man, usually with multiple wives. 
Floss: Okay. Interesting. Thank you. How did you first decide that monogamy just wasn't for you babes?
Polyphilia: I don't think it was actually a conscious decision. It was more. Uh, logical and practical stuff in my relationship at the time. So I was 17 years old and like, I appreciate that I started my non monogamy journey earlier than most [00:08:00] people. I just finished school and my partner and I, we were going to different places.
So like, um, he was going off to university in America and I was going to be spending my gap year in Hong Kong and China, which is where I'm from. Like, it just kind of made logical sense at the time to open up our relationship. Like usually, you know, you hear a lot of stories where people like suggest polyamory or non-monogamy to their partner and then like, they have a huge fight about it, potentially break up, you know, but for us it was just like, oh, well, We're not going to be seeing each other as frequently as we used to, there are some needs, you know, time, attention, sex, like whatever that we won't be able to give each other as kind of, as frequently as we used to, we don't want to resent each other for like this circumstance.
That's like, you know, out of our hands. So it makes sense for us to see other people, like it was literally like the chillest conversation ever. Like, you know, I didn't realize that this wasn't like a conversation that other people in long distance relationships had, but I guess, you know, from that relationship, I was like, oh, this is actually where I feel happiest.
And you know, something that I would like to continue [00:09:00] to do. And then, so every relationship I had from that point onwards was open in some form. 
Wow. So it was almost like. Because you've moved away to do your gap year. It wasn't, like you said, it wasn't even a choice. It was like, this is what seems natural.
And then you've just kind of ended up realizing that this is what's for you and what works for you regardless of 
who you're dating. Yeah. And I, at the time, you know, like people always like, oh, you know, don't, you kind of get insecure about what kind of him seeing other people. And I was like, no, I'm actually like really encouraging.
Like, he'd be like, oh, I went to a house party. I met this girl. We did these things and I'd be like, oh yeah. So like, it wasn't a very traditional path to non-monogamy. My journey has been very different from like a lot of people in that I started quite young. Um, there wasn't that much drama. I didn't experience that much jealousy.
I think I've always just had like a very kind of natural affinity to kind of doing this. 
Floss: Yeah, because I'm queer and I mostly date women and non binary people. I haven't dated men for very long time and I think I'm monogamous. And it's so funny because I can't even explain why I'm [00:10:00] monogamous. Like I can't even explain it.
And that's, I'm, I'm such a person who likes to understand every single thing about myself. And I have friends who are non monogamous and they always speak about their partners in the ways that you were just saying, like when they hear that their partner has been with someone else, it's exciting for them. And I think that is such a wonderful beautiful place to be. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. In the early days, like I think a lot of people misunderstood kind of my lack of jealousy to mean and a lack of care because like, I think we're taught to equate jealousy to love. Like, he's kind of jealous about you. Speaking of the other guys that need, you really cares about you.
It's so cute. I don't know. I just never really resonated with that, but just because I don't get triggered when, when you see other people that doesn't mean I don't care about you. In fact, I think it's quite toxic to want your partners to feel resentful and negative stuff, because they love you so much.
I feel that it's a really messed up thing to want to wish on someone that you love. 
Floss: It is. Do you think it's taught? Because like I said, I can't explain [00:11:00] why I'm monogamous. I guess for me it calculates an energy thing. So if. Investing a lot of energy into someone. I would find it exhausting, maintaining a lot of romantic relationships.
And I guess that's how I kind of explain it. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. I think that's healthy enough to recognize your limits. Right? Like I think if you just like, I literally do not have the time and energy to invest in more than one relationship. Yeah. That's fair enough. Right? Like attraction doesn't require action. That's something that I say a lot.
It's funny because like, when I speak to other monogamous people, like a lot of the time when they list the reasons like them anonymous, they usually talk about how they couldn't do polyamory, you know? And they say things like, oh, um, you know, I just got too jealous or they'd say things like, oh, you know, I wouldn't want to share my partner. Again, kind of coming back to like this kind of possessive mentality. I don't meet that many monogamous people who were just like, yeah, I just don't have the time. Um, or like, I just don't want to, or like, I want to devote my kind of romantic attention to one person. And I'm happy with that. 
Floss: Yes. Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, I'm best definitely some element of jealousy [00:12:00] in there for me as well. It's been four years since I've been in a monogamous relationship. So I have been dating, having lots of fun. Um, and it's been a really wonderful experience for me. See, I haven't been in a monogamous relationship for years.
Um, but I think you learn about yourself a lot in relationships. Um, because I don't know. I couldn't even tell you if I'm a jealous person, because I've not had a partner to be or not jealous of, um, I've deconstructed my, like everything when it comes to like gender sexuality, whether I want to be married or not what I want to have kids on all of these kinds of things that were taught.
And I do feel like monogamy is my last, it's my last thing that I think of in my head I have where I'm like, do you know what? I don't think I could be non-monogamous and it comes down to me. I think also like investment of time and energy. And I think the thing that me and my friends who are monogamous, we can't even explain why, because it always comes back to me.
But the friends thing, like we have so many friends, why is it different when it [00:13:00] comes to romantic relationships? But I still can't explain it. I don't know why. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. I think it's something that you figure out over time. Right? I think we would all be better as a society if we all kind of like accepted a more expansive definition of love.
I think the polyamorous community is often misconstrued as like, you know, trying to like convert everyone to polyamory. Um, and I'm sure there are definitely some people who want that. I'm not, um, I'm definitely not in that camp. I just think we would all be happier if like we learned a more expansive definition of love.
We admitted that, you know, we do kind of experience attraction to others, like in relationships rather than the traditional, I only have eyes for you and all that kind of stuff. And like, if, and if we kind of like did away with just possessiveness and relationships generally, you know, you can be like monogamous and not like excessively kind of possessive of your partner.
Um, and I think also there's like so many different types of love as well, right? Like, you know, we have kind of very, very deep love for our friends that I think society tries to restrict too much or diminish as like a less than romantic love. Right. 
Floss: Do you find that being queer, um, has [00:14:00] allowed you to open up to more different forms of love?
Because I do. I think with my friendships, it's almost this. No indefinable form of love, or it's not, sometimes it's not platonic and it's not romantic?
Polyphilia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the queer community talks about like queer platonic relationships, right. Where like these labeless kind of, uh, dynamics that are just very close and intimate and they kind of go beyond friendship and romance.
Right. Um, so yeah, I think in a way, you know, arguably you are practicing polyamory
Floss: What are some of the benefits of being polyamorous or being non-monogamous for you? 
Polyphilia: The main benefit of practicing polyamory is just, it allows me to be my happiest and most authentic self. I mean, like you're an artist, you know, what would you say? The benefits of being an artist? It's just like, this is what you enjoy. This is what you have a natural affinity to. It's just kind of, you know, it's kind of like that, right. But I think generally speaking, the main benefit that kind of non-monogamous and polyamorous people derive [00:15:00] from kind of doing this is, uh, you get to experience a lot more kind of variety and novelty in relationships. You know, I think like by connecting with different people, you might be exposed to like, you know, a wide range of, you know, interests hobbies and kind of personalities and like kinks, right? Like that you might not have discovered about yourself otherwise, if you were just with one person. Um, and I think also, um, kind of the things that I learned from other people end up kind of creating this symbiotic relationship with my other kind of partners where like, You know, they all kind of influence and benefit each other.
Floss: Yeah. That's nice. 
Polyphilia: So, you know, like I'll find out something new about myself, you know, in the bedroom or like, you know, as a, as a passion or interest, whatever, and then we'll take it back to another partner go like, oh my God, like we can try out these things and then we'll do it and be like, oh my God. Yeah. We would have never known about this if like, we hadn't been dating other people. And I think, you know, just can relate it to that. It's really been formative to kind of just myself discovery. And generally, I think there's less pressure to kind of meet all of someone's needs. And so what I mean by that is like, your partner has to be like [00:16:00] everything to you, your parent, your therapist, your like whatever, like, and yours are kind of supposed to be into the things that they're into and like, you know, go to all the things that they go to.
And obviously they're all relationships that aren't like that. And I think in terms of kind of what mainstream romance sells us, that is kind of what it's supposed to look like. And I think practicing polyamory means that. I just kind of throw that rule book out completely. And I'm able to design a relationship that actually like works for me and the other person.
Um, and so, yeah, like I can just be like my full, authentic self and, you know, they kind of like, we accept each other as we are and we let the relationship be what it is. 
Floss: That's so wonderful. That's exactly how I feel about being queer. When it comes to the script of romance. They're like, there's no guidebook for how to date women. So I feel like maybe it's the same thing with non-monogamy where you don't have the script. So you get to make up your, into your own rules entirely. I want to ask you, do you and your partner have rules that are rules that are specific to both of your needs about like when you do this or when you do that, because I feel like [00:17:00] there's no, there must be so many different forms of ethical non-monogamy or polyamory.
Polyphilia: Um, yeah. Um, so, um, In my relationship, things are generally quite free. Um, so I think like the, the only, um, kind of agreements that me and my partner have mostly kind of based on like practical and logistical things. So my partner and I live together. Um, and so if either of us like have dates that we kind of want to bring over to stay the night or whatever, then we'd have to check in with each other about that kind of like check each other's schedules and kind of have to communicate about that.
Um, and I think another big thing is probably like safer sex agreements or, um, you know, getting tested regularly. Just the basic principles of like checking, checking in with each other about things, being honest and kind of communicating things promptly rather than kind of leaving things until later, or like lying by omission and things like that.
So I think they're all just like basic principles of like honesty and communication. Um, and then everything is kind of built on top of that, but you know, obviously that's our relationship. I think some people can have [00:18:00] other kinds of agreements and like boundaries that they set in their relationships. 
Floss: I get a lot of messages from women who are just realizing that their bisexual. Um, in relationships with men and a lot of them say to me that they are considering opening up the relationship so that they can explore. And that's probably my most asked question is women because I'm bisexual and I'm very openly bisexual. And so I think a lot of people, when they read my work or they see like bisexual representation, they're like, oh yeah, that's how I feel about girls too. Fuck. But I'm in a relationship with a man. Do you have any tips for people who may be wanting to. Explore the fact that they like girls while they're in relationships with someone of the opposite sex, um, when they still want to stay with that person over that person, maybe like approaching the subject or something.
Cause I don't have the expertise for that. And that's something I get asked about all the time. 
Polyphilia: Yeah, no sure. Okay. So this is a really, really great question. I have a lot of things to say about it. I think exploring sexuality is a really, really big reason why people open up their relationships, whether it's like, you know, exploring kind of bisexuality, as [00:19:00] you said, or like exploring kink or just, you know, just, just exploring.
Types of sex really. Right. I think as a bisexual woman, if you're in a monogamous relationship with a man and, um, you want to kind of open up the relationship in order to explore relationships with women, obviously, you know, like that's like a really, really great thing to do. And you know, a lot of women like open up for that reason, but I would caution the kind of negotiations with your partner.
Like making sure that like your partner, isn't just agreeing to open up because he thinks that like, Relationships with women don't count because like I sometimes see a lot of, kind of, um, you know, women in monogamous relationships where like, you know, they, they kiss that female friend, like at a party or whatever.
And then the partner is like, oh yeah, that's fine. 
Floss: I have been the victim of one of those kisses, like I've experienced those kisses and I'll see her go with her boyfriend. And I'm like, what's- 
Polyphilia: if you're coming from a place while your boyfriend acknowledges that, like, you know, your bisexuality is real and, you know, you're not just kind of like straight and then kind of kissing women for funsies, you know, but I, I think in relationships where like, you're [00:20:00] open up to specifically to explore with like, agenda that your partner is not, sometimes you can run into situations where your partner is like, fetishizing your sexuality, objectifying, you objectifying, whoever you end up with.
Right. Like, I think kind of a lot of conversations need to be hard about like, you know, your kind of respective motivations for like opening up. And I think also, you know, if you open up to explore your sexuality, it makes sense to, um, for your partner to also have the freedom to explore his. Um, so then that's something to contend with.
You know, your partner is not defined by their agenda or their genitals, or like their performance in bed and recognizing that. You know, everyone is like, you know, a whole kind of human being in themselves. And like everyone has something unique to offer as a person rather than like as a gender. 
Um, I think that that's when that kind of fetishization comes in, isn't it?
The boyfriend maybe is a K with goals and then maybe they insinuate the men and that's like, it becomes a, oh no, no, no, not with guys. And then that's when it's like, so what did you think I was doing here with the girl? Because I feel the [00:21:00] same way. 
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think a lot of men kind of fall into this thing where.
Yeah, she can sleep with women and women. Women's not going to steal like it's hot or like, oh, women's not being steal her away from me. Um, or we just, just like
Um, and also like, you know, trans people get left out of this conversation as well, because it's like, okay, all you focusing on, like, if you're focusing on kind of them being men. Okay. What about trans men? If you're focusing on like them having, having dicks. Okay. What about trans women? Like, you know, like trans people, non binary people kind of get left out of this?
Um, kind of very reductive rule. Yes. So I think there's a difference between like opening up relationship and then kind of wanting to explore, exploring your sexuality and like doing it because like your partner, like specifically gets insecure about men and there's a weird double standard with kind of men versus women.
Floss: Do you think that biologically we're supposed to be non monogamous? 
Polyphilia: I would personally avoid [00:22:00] saying things like we're meant to be this or men to be that, you know, I can only speak from my own experience and what I've seen and read and all that kind of stuff. And so I would really hesitate to make kind of grants sweeping generalizations about like how, like we as a species... kind of the caveat having said that there is like a vast amount of research that certainly points to the fact that like humans are not a monogamous species. Um, so if we're going back to kind of evolutionary psychology, But obviously, you know, we have been influenced by culture and like upbringings and whatever.
And I think like, uh, when scholars kind of talk about how we're naturally non-monogamous, they kind of miss out on the fact that we are being influenced by like the media and you know, our upbringings and all that kind of stuff. And it's, I think it's very, very difficult to unlearn that and kind of divorce that from who we are and our personalities .
Floss: Yeah. Especially, especially when everything around it kind of like reinforces that. So even if you're not comfortable and you feel naturally non-monogamous, I imagine [00:23:00] there's constantly people around you going, but how do you do that? Don't you feel jealous when they're like this and that since even like, it's like, it's even like the pressure of like, feeling like you need to get married.
It's like everyone around you talking about something, you can convince yourself that, oh, maybe this isn't what I want. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, the pressure to get married, the pressure to have kids, the pressure to move in with your partner to show that you love them. Like we do not exist in a vacuum.
Right. Like I think these things influence us. And so even if it is the case that like humans are like a non-monogamous species, right. I don't think that means that everyone should be non-monogamous there's just so much stuff. Like would have to unlearn in order for that to happen. And like sometimes the, yeah, the effort is just not worth it.
I do think that if we were really monogamous as a species like cheating and divorce rates, wouldn't be as high as they are. There was a study that was published a while ago about like sexual fantasies. And I think it was something like 95% of men and like almost 90% of women said that they had fantasize about sex with multiple partners.
So like, it's clearly a thing that people think [00:24:00] about a lot. 
Floss: That's really sad then isn't it to think that like, maybe we're all actually naturally a lot less possessive, naturally a lot less inclined to be with one person. And we all maybe have some, like, I mean, I say, all, 90 to 95% is quite a high percentage of people and we will have these thoughts, but we're all kind of keeping each other in this high control group of monogamy where it's like, oh, but this is what we do isn't it. So that's all follow these rules. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. I mean, I think it's all like, you know, kind of the drive for like the nuclear family. It kind of like marriage being like institutionalized, like, you know, like legally as, you know, as like a financial decision and all that kind of stuff, like probably motivated us to, to be this way.
Floss: So I've seen you talk online about how often people assume that non-monogamy is about avoiding commitment and. Intimacy and vulnerability, but can you talk a bit more about 
that? I think like that again, kind of comes down [00:25:00] to like these messages that we receive, like in the media about, you know, equating jealousy to love and equating commitment to a monogamy commitment to me is like love and kind of trust and communication and, you know, like supporting that goals and like enhancing like the happiness and like supporting them in times of need.
None of that requires monogamy. I show up for my partners. Like I am kind of consistently loving them, like as an action, like day by day. And so I think, you know, how on earth, like, is that commitment? 
That is, that is commitment. And that is beautiful. My first thought then, like I said to you earlier about the time thing, that sounds so overwhelming to me, um, in terms of like scheduling and time and stuff, but then I guess I'm the same with my friends like, you know, I've got my best is who I check in with every day. And then I have the friends that we meet for coffee once a month for a catch-up. Do you find that that that's the similar kind of, um, cause of course not, everyone's going to be your partner and you're not. Cause you don't, you live with one person, so that's that relationship.
And then you have all the kind of trickle down, different types of [00:26:00] related. Uh, is that what you find with polyamory as well? 
Polyphilia: Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, I have my kind of own personal boundaries, like I think like, um, I need a lot of my own space. So like, even though my partner and I live lived together, like we like actually like half the week, like we sleep in separate bedrooms.
Floss: Um, oh, that sounds gorgeous is amazing.
Polyphilia: It is amazing. Um, and we both like our own space. We're very independent as people like we live together, like over locked down and I'm pretty sure we survived that because like, we kind of set good boundaries for like giving each other, like time to like, You know, but it'd be apart from each other.
So we could have the rush of like coming together again and spending quality time. Right. Because I think when you're living with someone, there's a difference between like just, you know, spending quality time with them and just existing with them in a space scheduling is like, obviously something that like is a hot topic, like in the polyamorous community, because yeah, like even if like a love and affection and intimacy, all theoretically kind of.
Um, you know, your time and energy or not. And particularly if you're like particularly introverted, then it can be [00:27:00] exhausting to kind of juggle like multiple relationships. Right. So I think it does take a certain type of person, like I've got spreadsheets and like color-coded calendars and like labels to kind of all this stuff.
So like I keep it all in check. Right. Wow. 
Floss: I hope I can ask you this. Are there a lot of breakups? Cause I would imagine that there's a lot of, um, people who maybe agree to date you in your situation with the partner and the other partners, and then maybe they realize they're not up for it. 
Polyphilia: That, that, that's what I've heard from my friends is that it's a lot of, um, it's, it's a lot of breakups cause it's a lot of relationships at the same time.
So, um, in the early days, like when I was, when I first started out on my polyamorous, Johnny, I didn't really vet to people appropriately. And I think I did run into a lot of people who weren't as committed to me and to polyamory as I was. So, um, you know, I think a lot of people, like, they thought they were okay with it, but then like, you know, once things got serious, they were like, oh shit, I want you all to myself.[00:28:00] 
Um, and you know, and I think a lot of people kind of mistake polyamory for. Casually dating until you pick your favorites, which is kind of what monogamous people do. So I think in the early stages, yeah. Like there were definitely a lot of situations where I date someone and then, you know, things would get serious and I'd be, you know, very committed to them emotionally.
But because I was also seeing other people, they couldn't return that commitment. Um, and so, yeah, I think it's about like doing that pre-vetting and like asking the appropriate questions. And I think at this stage, in my life, you know, I've been kinda non-monogamous six years. Um, so I started when I was 17.
I'm now 23, almost 24. 
Floss: Um, yeah, I can't, I can't believe we're the same age. Just, just because as well, I felt like it takes a really, and I get this a lot. Everyone's like, how are you? Only 23. So it's nice to actually feel the same way about, so I'm like, how are you 23? Because you have such a refined like understanding of yourself to be able to like, do polyamory as well and have been doing it and practicing it. And I just can't even imagine that like the levels of [00:29:00] communication of boundary setting, I think it's really like, I'm actually just in all of like the skills that, that must require when it's so against the norm. Yeah. Well, like you said, six years, but I just think it's, um, it's, uh, most people who I've met who are, have been doing it for so long.
A lot older. I just think it's really cool that you know, what you want. You're okay. With a setting that and it's so I just think it's pretty cool. 
Polyphilia: I think, I think partly, um, Well, I think there are kind of various factors that can contribute to that. But I do think a major factor is the fact that I'm autistic.
Um, and I think so, um, I don't know how much you know about autism floss, but like being autistic means that, um, a lot of kind of social norms just go over your head. So, you know, like, you know, when, uh, when I talked about my, but the only time I played paintball, like I think when everyone is organizing themselves into teams and there were clearly like two sides and we were all like, undercover, like. I should've been able to look around again, see like, oh, there are two [00:30:00] teams. It's not every man for himself, but that just completely went over my head because the social cues of people kind of organizing them like it, you know, I wasn't clued in on that. And you know, my queerness comes into this as well, like, because like a lot of kind of things that. Um, you know, people just kind of take for granted in terms of kind of like social norms and like things that you're supposed to do. They like really didn't register in my mind. I was much more able to kind of break free of it, like very early on. So I feel this way about my sexuality. I feel this way about my non-monogamy.
I feel this way about my gender. And, you know, so I think it's no accident as well that like a lot of people in the queer community are also neurodivergent and I think it's also no accident. A lot of neurodivergent people are polyamorous or non-monogamous like the Venn diagram is not a circle, but it's pretty damn close.
Floss: Um, w what advice do you have for people who, uh, I want to be nominal commerce and they're trying. [00:31:00] They are struggling with the jealousy aspect of it, or would you not recommend it to someone who's having those feelings? 
Polyphilia: I honestly think that like jealousy is like a very normal emotion and I don't think the goal of practicing polyamory is to eradicate it from your emotional vocabulary.
Um, so, um, you know, there are plenty of kind of polyamorous people who do experience jealousy, and there are plenty of monogamous people who don't obviously, you know, I do think that if you struggle less with jealousy, you're probably more likely to practice polyamory. Just going to be easier, but it's like, I don't think that they're mutually exclusive things, you know?
I think it's not so much about the fact that you feel jealousy, but more so like what you do with it when you experience it, are you going to like stop your partner from like doing whatever it is that triggered you? Or are you going to kind of ask yourself where it's coming from. And kind of do a self assessment in that way.
So like, in addition to kind of like running my blog and stuff, um, I also give a peer support, which is basically like, you know, I give advice to kind of clients who are kind of struggling with stuff like this, you know, with, with, with jealousy and opening up, um, [00:32:00] and something that I tell them, you know, when the kind of in the throws of jealousy is to think about whether the jealousy that they're experiencing is in tunnel or.
So, what I mean by that is jealousy can either be internal as in, you know, it can either be like an echo of your previous trauma or like your insecurities. Right. You know, like a situation might be kind of bringing up feelings that you have a fear of abandonment, or like you're not good enough or that you're going to be replaced or that like, you're not enough in that case interrogating, like where that comes from, you know, when was the last time you felt like this and, you know, going to like, yeah, like the root of like your insecurities and your trauma.
Like purchasing that from, from that space. Um, and then if it's external, then it's going to be like a problem with other, your relationship or like with your partner in terms of compatibility. So like, you know, is it that your partner used to give you X amount of time and now they're giving you less and, you know, you need X amount of time in order to feel like loved and valued in a relationship, or like, is there something that they're doing with, with [00:33:00] their other partner that you really like to do and you would like to do with them as well?
So in which case, you know, have a conversation with your partner about it and, you know, communicate that you need these things like to, to feel loved or the result is that you just don't mesh as people. And there isn't a way for them to kind of provide you these needs, then, you know, the relationship has to end, right.
It's a compatibility issue and it's no one's fault. So I think the main point I'm trying to make here, I think jealousy is, uh, something that you can learn from rather than something to try and like avoid at all cost and try to circumvent at all costs, which I think is something that sadly, uh, we're taught to do in monogamous relationships.
Like if, if you, if you're jealous, then what your partner is doing must be wrong. Um, and then you just stopped doing it immediately. 
Floss: So there's no introspection
Polyphilia: you know, polyamory is hard for a lot of people because like, it is basically just like turbocharging, like your personal growth journey. 
Floss: Yeah. Yeah, because I imagine that there's lots of different angles. It's multiple mirrors being held up for two at the same time when I'm dating, like, uh, someone. And I feel that that mirrors back stuff to me and I'm like, [00:34:00] oh God, I didn't know. I reacted that way. So that kind of thing. And I always find it really fun and interesting, but I can't imagine.
Yeah, like multiple mirrors at the same time and P different people bringing out different facets of you. But I guess that's what is that with my friendships? I'm, I'm different versions of floss, almost like a circle of me. And I'm just like this giant brain bone, just like different colors get experienced by different parts of my friends.
And it's not that it's inauthentic. It's not that I'm a different person with them. It's that they bring out different sides of me. So imagine that must be, if you are non-monogamous and polyamorous, quite nice to express. 
Polyphilia: Yeah, exactly. You know, it sounds like you get it. That's why like polyamory has been so fulfilling to me because, you know, I get to experience that, you know, without kind of restriction.
Floss: Okay. So I want to move now onto the questions that my listeners have sent in. Okay, question number one. How do you know if you're actually polyamorous or if you just fancy or like flirting with and getting attention from other [00:35:00] people? 
Polyphilia: I think that the main difference is emotional availability and vulnerability.
Floss: from yourself or others from, 
Polyphilia: well, both, like, I think that, um, you know, it's one thing to just like, you know, how like design of the occasional flirtation and habit, you have to just be like a fun, meaningless thing. And for you to actually want to like commit to multiple people. Because love is vulnerability. And if you're just having fun, uh, rather than like opening up to someone emotionally and what you said about the mirrors floss, like, you know, like seeing that kind of reflected in yourself and like challenging yourself and growing in that way, that is the difference.
Again, like this is kind of coming back to what we said earlier about like avoiding commitment and intimacy. First, like from, from that I could possibly be like, I think, I think polyamory is not so much a therapy commitment, but like a love of commitment because, you know, we, we want to be committed to multiple people.
Floss: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I, but I guess it's, you're dealing with what polyamory actually is when you engage in it fully and then what people assume [00:36:00] it is, which is just a phonology where you like lots of attention. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. Yeah. Although, you know, fun orgies where you got a lot of attention is also really good. I can personally say, 
Floss: Yeah also gorgeous. Then I guess like you're dealing with the idea.
So this person saying, is it just this or that? Like, like you're saying, people assume that polyamory isn't actually that engaged with vulnerability, but it couldn't be more, um, engaged with vulnerability because you're opening yourself up to lots of people. I think that's interesting. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. Like, you know, love is kind of giving someone the power to hurt you and oh, yes.
There's a difference between kind of doing that, like with multiple people and just like having a F a fun flirtatious time. 
Floss: Okay. Next question. What kind of boundaries are important when embarking on polyamory for the first time? I guess that would be dependent on your situation, right? Because someone might be like, no sex. I'm not comfortable. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. Yeah. Like I think it would be, um, kind of dependent on the relationship. Right? Like, I think. Comfortable with different things. Whereas like some people are more comfortable with kind of general, like sexual non-monogamy [00:37:00] and I like their exclusive romantically, like with their partner.
Um, but you know, they're like sexually non-exclusive. So, you know, they might go to threesomes like they might go to orgies, they might have threesomes. They might kind of have like friends with benefits, like separately. Right? Like, you know, it can take a whole bunch of different forms when kind of opening up your relationship generally, like have a conversation about like what kind of structure you want to have, um, I would also kind of caution against like any kind of relationship agreements involving like feelings. Um, because I think in a particularly in kind of sexually non-monogamous relationships, there's this whole thing where you agree, like, okay, we're only going to love each other and you're not allowed to fall in love with other people, but then that kind of thing can be difficult to control. Um, you know, like you can't help. Like if you have a crush your, like, you know, you feel like some butterflies, like for someone that you've been sleeping with. So I think it's probably better to just have a contingency plan again, attraction doesn't require action. Just because you do have kind of romantic feelings for, for like a funded benefits, is it doesn't necessarily [00:38:00] mean that the love that you share with your partners suddenly is meaningless or like doomed or not enough. And so I think setting boundaries around. Actions rather than feelings. There's probably going to be like the better route to go. 
Floss: Okay. Nice. Thank you. Next question. How do you introduce multiple partners to your parents? 
Polyphilia: Um, so I have not done this yet. 
Floss: Maybe, I guess it depends on your living situation. You could live with your parents maybe. And that would be an entire thing. 
Polyphilia: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, so I'm in a unique situation in that, like I'm from Hong Kong. I grew up there. Still live there. So I've been living apart from my parents, like on a whole different continent for quite a while, which is why, like, you know, just introducing partners and even friends to parents is not really something that I do on a regular basis.
It would be quite a big deal. Exactly. Um, but then I imagine if we'd been living in the same country and that was like someone, uh, you know, there were people who like, I, you know, thought were kind of emotionally [00:39:00] significant to me and they wanted to be introduced to my parents. I would probably have a conversation with my parents first in terms of like explaining our situation and like setting boundaries around like, you know, questions they can ask and things that they can say in front of us.
Because I think the last thing I want would be to expose my. To like a lot of ridicule and potentially abuse, like from my family members, for all, from people who just don't get it or, you know, on like sensitive about these kinds of things. Yeah. I think that there is still like a lot of stigma about non-monogamy and polyamory, a lot of misconceptions, um, which is kind of why I set up my blog really into the, kind of, just talk about these things and educate the masses.
Floss: Okay. The last question we have here, can anyone choose to become polyamorous coming from a codependent, monogamous work in progress. 
So, I guess this, this is someone who co-dependent, so probably needs to constantly be in a relationship, maybe hops from relationship to relationship, 
Polyphilia: Yeah plays the caretaker and the relationship.
Floss: Yeah. Can anyone become poly or do [00:40:00] you. I think that people are born that way?
Polyphilia: This is a multifaceted question. Cause I think that like codependency, you end up in this toxic dynamic where you're the caretaker in the relationship, and you're sort of simultaneously resent that you kind of are picking up after of your partner all the time and basically raising them, um, while also like needing that validation because you want to feel needed. Right. That's the kind of dynamic that you end up with if you're codependent. Um, and that means that, you know, you and your partner. Like all like fuse, like as a unit, you can't live without each other. And I think polyamory would be very difficult to practice in that situation. If you're not individuals right. Kind of going on separate self discovery journeys, which is what a lot of polyamory is. I think a lot of couples make this mistake of embarking on a polyamory without having fully like disentangled themselves from each other. Um, and they still kind of see themselves as like one person and they do everything with that mindset and it.
You know their relationship and the people around them. So I think like codependency, I think, you know, that's [00:41:00] like a first thing, you know, in terms of like, just to like work through like, you know, personally, you know, in, in, in therapy and all that kind of stuff, you know, where it comes from and, you know, learning kind of healthy boundaries, right.
For yourself and your relationships and then the polyamorous. Exactly. And then I think, secondly, figuring out if you personally want to polyamory. Or if you're just doing it because your partner wants you to, because I think that's another danger in kind of codependent, uh, dynamics, or like it just in general kind of monogamous dynamics where we're taught like love is sacrifice.
And you have to kind of do everything to make your partner happy. You know, people, people please. And they think like, oh, you know, I'll do this because you know, my partner wants this and they ignore like their own needs and their own desires. You need to figure out your why. Like, why are you. Personally, practicing polyamory, not because you like fear your partner leaving you or because you fear change or loss, right? Why are you doing it? I think [00:42:00] it's different for everyone because different people have kind of different upbringings and traumas and insecurities, and some people take longer to online then all this. Right. But I do think that it is something that probably most people can do if they genuinely want it and put their mind to it.
Wow. I have so much food for thought after that incredible episode with Leanne. I love the way that she talks about polyamory. I think it's very interesting. I definitely learned a lot in this episode about the different ways that people can't be. Can't be polyamorous, particularly related to a lot of the stuff she's saying about friendship.
Um, non definable relationships. I think it's a very queer thing. Um, and I really hope that anyone listening, if you sent in your question, I felt like your question was, I hope that you felt like your questions answered. During this episode. You can follow Leanne on all social media @polyphilia and next week I'll be joined by the absolute brilliant Todd Baratz to answer all of your relationship queries.
If you'd like to speak to us or ask any questions you can get in touch on WhatsApp. The number is [00:43:00] plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 600. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, don't forget, I'll be answering even more of your questions on the bonus episodes that are available. Subscribers of apple podcasts. You can ask me absolutely anything.
If you want your question answered by me, you can drop me a text or a voicemail on WhatsApp on plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5. And a massive thank you to the fucking incredible black honey who composed the original theme music for my podcast. You can find them on Instagram at black honey UK, and check out their latest album called written and directed to keep yourself updated with all the latest episodes as they drop.
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My producer is Milly Chowles. My assistant producer is Ella McLeod. Executive producer is Callie. Male production coordinator is Lily Hambly and I want to give a special thanks to our engineers, Jay Beale, josh Gibbs and mixing engineer, Gulli Lawrence Tickle and additional production from Chris Skinner and Teddy Riley.