EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 3: SEX: Dr. Thema - Healing After Sexual Trauma

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello. Thank you so much for listening to Exactly. with me Florence Given over the next 20 episodes, I'll be exploring some really big subjects from multiple angles in four part mini series. We're going to be talking about sex, social media, feminism, relationships, and body image, as my mission is to really get into some of the complexity and nuance that these subjects hold.

This is the third part of the series on sex. And today we're going to be talking about healing from sexual trauma, with the incredibly wise, Dr. Thema Bryant. At the end of the episode, I'll be answering the questions that you've sent in through my Instagram stories on this topic. Then next week, we're going to be opening up the conversation around sex and I want to hear from you. My guests and I are going to be answering your calls, your texts, and your voice notes around sex, or any questions or dilemmas that you have to do with sex, sexuality, queer identity, or anything else. If you have something that you would like to discuss or you need advice, drop me a line on WhatsApp at + [00:01:00] 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5.
This mini series is all about sex and sexuality. It's a massive topic and there's so many different angles we could take on it, but something I thought that would be really helpful for a lot of people to address is sexual trauma and how to heal. When I first wrote Women Don’t Owe You Pretty a couple of years ago, I'd laid out all of the 21 chapters that I wanted to write beforehand, but the one on sexual assault was the hardest for me to write and it was actually the last one that I completed. I kept putting it off, not really wanting to have to complete that task and talk about something that every time I think about leaves me filled with anger, frustration, heart palpitations, disappointment, or just all of the above. 

We know that the rates of women who've experienced sexual violence are terrifyingly high and post MeToo movement, we have this increased awareness of the problem, but I've heard less about recovering from it. And that's what we're going to [00:02:00] do today. 
Although we will be talking about the subject. Generally, we won't be going into details of specific incidents or types of assault. And with that said, if the subject is too raw, then please do have a listen to one of the other episodes of Exactly.

My guest today is the incredible Dr. Thema. She has helped me through so much. She posts the snappiest quotes on Instagram, that kind of reaffirm your self worth and reaffirm your journey of growth. She's the fucking icon of oy settling for less than you deserve. She's shifted my view many times with her analogies and I really, really want everyone to follow her on social media.

And I'm sure you won't even need convincing after this episode. Dr. Thema, Bryan is a minister psychologist, professor, sacred artists and host of the podcast. Homecoming. Her latest book: Homecoming- Overcome fear and trauma to retain your whole authentic self publishes this March. I can't wait to read it. Dr. Thema [00:03:00] also has already published several books. She has a book on this exact subject called Surviving sexual violence, a guide to recovery and empowerment and thriving in the wake of trauma, a multicultural guide, which I'll put links to in the podcast description. Today, I'm making this episode, the young version of floss that felt so destroyed by the selfishness of other people and their actions that she didn't know what to do with herself, and I was very lost. I did not know what to do after I'd been through sexual trauma. 
And I think for some people it takes even longer to realize that what you experienced was an assault. If I say anything before I actually interviewed Dr. Thema, it's just, I want you to know that it's not your fault, whatever happened to you. I just want this episode, if anything, to be a piece of comfort, more than anything more than it is informational or whatever. 

I want this to provide some comfort, regardless of your gender. However, however you identify, however your experiences with [00:04:00] assault- I want to learn more ways about how sexual trauma specifically affects us as well in our lives.
I have a feeling that Dr. Thema’ll say, like, you know, there's no right way of healing because I think it is individual to the person. But I think that she's going to have some cracking advice and we will be taking our lesson to questions at the end of the episode as well. 

Floss: Dr. Thema I'm so I'm so overjoyed to have you on my podcast today. Thank you so much. 
Dr Thema: Thank you for the invitation. I'm excited about being with you for this conversation. 

Floss: Of course. Um, before we get into the tricky and tough. At times hard to talk about conversation of sexual trauma. Um, I like to ask my guests five quick, five questions that have absolutely nothing to do with what we're going to talk about just to kind of break the ice and get us warmed up.
So just say the first thing that comes to mind. Okay. What's one thing that sets your soul on [00:05:00] fire 

Dr Thema: Dancing. 

Floss: ah amazing- me too. If you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life and look that would define you forever, what would the outfit. 

Dr Thema: Orange, which is my favorite color. And somewhere on the outfit would be wings.

Floss: Can I ask why wings? 

Dr Thema: Uh, because I'm about like soaring thriving, like not just being in survival mode, but like going higher. 

Floss: Okay. Wow. okay. Um, what's something that people frequently misunderstand or get wrong about. 

Dr Thema: People often think, because I talk a lot when I'm presenting that it, that personally I'm a talkative person, but I'm much more a listener.

Floss: Interesting. And finish this sentence. Okay. I'm still a work in progress when it comes to… 

Dr Thema: claiming my voice [00:06:00] in all the areas of my life. Okay. 

Floss: When was the last time you majorly cringed at yourself?

Dr Thema: Right before this, I was doing a presentation and then the attendees tried to turn it into a consultation. And we were like over time. So it's that boundary setting of of saying I'm not going to continue to participate in this. Like, I, I cannot, I cannot. So whenever you have to set a boundary, uh, there's that cringe moment of like, is this the line?
Is this the line? Yeah, this is the line. 

Floss: Thanks for answering my quick five questions. Um, before we get into talking about sexual trauma, I just want to talk about how much I love your work. And I want all the listeners who are listening to this podcast to listen to your podcast as well, homecoming and your episodes, the particularly the one on rejection, rejection, not being an [00:07:00] identity, uh, check your circle.
That episode still brings in my head, the quotes that you said and everything, it really made me think about my life and how I've often had to shrink myself because of other people's insecurities around me. Um, and I just wanted to ask you, how can we learn to keep our light, when the people around us. I don't either reflect that back or don't celebrate us in our lives.

Dr Thema: Yeah. Such an important question. And first of all, thank you for enjoying the podcast and sharing it with your listeners. It has been such a delight to provide the mental health information because they have this vantage point of psychology for the people, right. That it shouldn't just be for the elite or for the few or for the wealthy, but like, how do we get this information out there, which is why I love you doing what you're doing.
Um, so in terms of holding onto your light, when you're in an environment that tries to shade you. [00:08:00] Um, I think it is important to look at the things that nourish you and to get in the presence of those who will nourish you, even if that's not your family, even if that is not your current work environment, there has to be some, some pouring in, in order for you to continue to show up in the way that you are. And so selecting friends that get you, that affirm you, that encourage you, uh, getting in the presence of like-minded people, kindred spirits. And, uh, one of the gifts that has come with this pandemic is so many more options being available online.
So even if you're in a small community and you don't know anybody in your direct community that, uh, flows the way you flow, there are people online who have your sensibility that will share your passions and your commitments. And so being able to tap into them, So that when you are in the dry places, when you are in the desert lands, when [00:09:00] you are in the places where the affirmation is not coming readily, that you're able to nourish your soul in that way.
And I would also say feeding your spirit. And so what are the ways that make your spirit come alive? Uh, even when you're in a toxic space. 

Floss: And like you said, the thing that makes you come alive is dancing. So there are so many pockets of joy that you can tap into.

Dr Thema: that's right. That's right. I tell people when they're at a workplace that is draining, then having your morning ritual, you know, before you show up to that place.
I remember I was working at a really stressful place and the director, the assistant director one day said to me, you always seem so happy and I get the feeling it has nothing to do with this place. And I said you're right. [laughs] I'm like I was depending on this place for my joy. I'd be. So I have to find something outside of here that feeds me.

Floss: You have to find your pockets of [00:10:00] joy. And I think what's really sad is that people often think that I'm high just because I laugh all the time and I find so much joy and I'm always smiling.
They almost don't believe it, which I think is really sad, but it's because I stick to my rituals. I, you know, I've had a lot of success in my career. And the nourishment that I got from my career is the joy from other people telling me that this helped them or whatever, but actually also it's the really small things.
It's like making my coffee in the morning and my leoprint tea cup, because that is so special to me and all of these little rituals and then dancing to a new song. That's amazing advice. Thank you. 

Dr Thema: The simple pleasures. Yeah. And I appreciate you naming how people can think your joy is inauthentic. And it does, as you said, it reveals more about them and their life journey than about you.
Uh, and some people equate kindness with fake- right? If you smile and are kind and then their experience tells them this must be a trick. You must be trying to [00:11:00] manipulate me. You're trying to get something out of me. And it's very revealing about, you know, the lives people have lived, where it is suspicious to have joy.

Floss: Thank you so much. Uh, when, when we're talking about the people that we surround ourselves with, Red flags often comes up in conversation when we're talking about making new friends or dating new people and stuff like that. And you talk a lot about red flags and I love how you talk about, uh, I think I've one of your quotes written down here somewhere.
Um, as you heal, poison becomes less attractive. And I loved that so much. I think a lot of your quotes are so snappy and to the point and what I want to ask you leading onto the topic of sexual trauma, why is it then that we ignore red flags and does it have anything to do with fear? 

Dr Thema: So we often ignore it flags for- one is hope. Right. Uh, often, especially when it comes to relationships, [00:12:00] we are hoping for love. We are hoping this is the one. And so we can fall for people's potential and we can fall for who we, who we want them to be, uh, to the point where we will, uh, ignore an excuse who they actually are, because if I accept, if I really look at the red flags, then like the fantasy is over.
So one of the pieces is hope. The other piece is some of the messages we have received about relationships, focus so much on it being work. So we tell people, you know, it's not going to come easy. It takes work. And of course, relationships take work, but there is a point in which people's spirits are broken and they're thinking, well, that's just normal.
So you want to. Really be able to distinguish is it that the two of us are working to get to know each other because we maybe grew up in different ways [00:13:00] and it's just like, it's a process of us learning each other or is the work really me erasing myself, me losing my voice does the different whoring, my needs.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. 

Floss: So it's like you go through something with a person, you ignored all the red flags, and then you end up in a really horrific situation. And I was, I was talking with someone recently and we said that, actually one of the most dangerous things, um, on the note of sexual violence and sexual trauma that a woman can do is simply to date men and be around men because 90% of perpetrators are already known to the woman in her life.
And I think once you go through something that shakes your world, shakes your core, it can be really hard to trust people again. And we get into that place of, I can't trust anyone. Do you have anything to say about leaving the victim mindset, into a survivor mindset that you were speaking about earlier with your wings [00:14:00] on your clothes that you would have.
Cause you're, you're so much more focused on thriving than being defined by the things that happened to you. 

Dr Thema: Yeah. So we want to first actually give space to take in the victimization, right? Because I think sometimes we want people to skip over their process. Right. We want to skip to the wings and there was no cocoon.
Right. So we need right. We need space to be able to grieve it. Right. We need space for the anger. Right? I like to say it's healthy to be outraged about outrageous things. It is a healthy response to be outraged about the violation. And it is also a part of the, the response that there will be grief in it, of what was taken.
And I appreciate you naming that. In most cases, it's someone who is known to you because we are usually prepared- And now I'm speaking to women or, uh, for those who are non-binary- but we are [00:15:00] often prepared as children to look out for strangers. Right. So people will say, you know, have your keys ready-

Floss: Stranger danger, right?

Dr Thema: That's the whole piece. Don't go with strangers. Everything is about the stranger. And so we have often not been equipped or prepared. For like, what if you're on a date? What if you like them? What if it's actually your partner? Right? So, because those experiences have often not been named, it adds even more to the victim blaming, right?
Well, you, you were with them, you invited them into your apartment, you know, all of these things that if you were attracted to someone, then that must mean consent. Or if you had sex with them in the past, and that means you forever are a yes to whatever they want to do at any time. But when we talk about this journey of surviving to thriving is first giving ourselves pause and permission and safety to actually heal and to feel what you feel.
And so the sexual violence can affect you [00:16:00] psychologically. When we think about PTSD, which is intrusive thoughts, thinking about it when you don't want to think about it being what we would call hypervigilant, so that caution, um, and avoidance, so you might avoid, uh, dating for a while or, you know, avoid people who remind you of that person.
Um, it can affect your concentration. Um, I'm a sexual assault survivor. When I was assaulted, I was, um, home from college. And when I went back to Duke University, uh, my grades plummeted. Because I just couldn't focus. And I was someone who school had always come easy for me. So people have had difficulty with work or difficulty with school, difficulty with relationships or intimacy, and so needing spaces where you can actually heal.
But then the part is when you talk about like being stuck in the victim mindset, that's when, you know, time has passed, but there's been no process or growth on my part. [00:17:00] Right? So some people, when they tell you about their experience, um, and it may have been 10 years ago, but it sounds like it was last night.
You know, then they're really stuck. It is a part of my story, but it's not my whole story. So I like to say trauma affects you, but it doesn't define you. Right. So there is more to you than how other people have treated you.

Floss: You were touching on how, um, impacted your schoolwork and all of those kinds of things when you came home. And I feel like. Assault does change your life trajectory, if not only because it might launch into a career like you and I are doing right, but why you actually decide to, to, to help other people through this kind of stuff, but because of your entire worldview changes, I think for a lot of people, when abuse comes from the same place you once thought was safe, that can be very confusing to receive that message and like we’re saying, it usually, if not most cases happens with [00:18:00] someone you trusted.
Um, and so, yeah, it can be really hard to trust people again. And I often think about the reality that all the women in my life have, have either been harassed, assaulted, or worse by men. And that yhe other reality is that we don't actually even tell each other because maybe we didn't know that what happened was assault, because it has been so normalized and because it was with a boyfriend and we thought that that was his right to just do that or all of this kind of really confusing stuff.
Again, touching on the person you trusted also being the person who really crossed several lines- 

Dr Thema: But before your question, I do want to name that while the overwhelming majority are by men, but that some people have had women offenders, especially when we talk about, um, molestation sometimes, um, older girls or, um, adult women, babysitters, family members.
And so, um, To, to [00:19:00] name that part of some people's experience as well. 

Floss: Yes. Thank you. That's really important. Thank you. So I'm wondering how survivors can reclaim that voice in other ways, when speaking up might be too costly for them because is often is too costly to name your abuser or to tell people in your life because of the connections and the pieces that holds this whole puzzle together. What are some other ways that survivors of sexual trauma can reclaim their voice.

Dr Thema: Yes. Thank you so much for that. And yeah. Who people choose to disclose to, um, is really, you know, their own journey. And it's an interactive process, meaning that sometimes the reason people have not said something is, uh, they're clear, others are not safe.
That people will not believe them or that people will not support them, that people will side with this relative for various reasons. Or, [00:20:00] you know, if you're from a marginalized community that people will say, you know, you should never report someone from our community because we already are facing so many difficulties.
So there is often this pressure. Um, for your silence. So some people falsely believe that there are a lot of, of, um, false reports, um, with sexual assault. But the opposite is actually true where it's much more likely that people are not reporting. So the numbers are, um, grossly underestimated. And so what can I do?
Let's say if I've decided. My family is not going to support me, or if I believe, um, that I don't want to be involved with the criminal justice system for whatever reason. Um, there are still ways as you're naming to own my voice. And so one is figuring out, um, family members and friends who are safe? Who will believe me, who will support me so that even, you know, if, if it's a [00:21:00] relative and you're not cutting that person off, if I have someone in the room who knows what happened so they can support me, um, kind of, you know, with their silent presence or making sure I'm not by myself with this person.
Um, and also in my friendships to create the kind of friends, uh, who get it. And who show up with compassionate as you have named, because it is so prevalent, often you're not the only one. And so, you know, usually if we do share just a piece of it, the, the common refrain is like me too. Right. Me too. They sometimes from that same person.
Right. Um, and so we want to be mindful of just because you choose not to say it in one space does not mean you have to be silent in every space. I'm a big one that shows up for me in terms of, as a therapist is people who are having difficulties. Intimacy with their current partners. And sometimes they will then either [00:22:00] come for individual or couples therapy to try to reclaim their sexuality, to try to reclaim your body if your only association with it as violation.
Um, that's, you know, a very. Uh, narrow, um, perspective on what intimacy is. And so, but it does take work to get reconnected with your body, another great way for people to reclaim their voice is through the arts. So I've mentioned we both love dance and, um, you know, it's a wonderful way, uh, to the point where they even now have trauma informed yoga.
Um, people have talked about somatic therapy, Soma means body. So not just thinking about my healing process, but involving my body in my process. Um, and so using your artistry, using your friendships, um, using your spiritual practice as a way of reclaiming your voice, um, and of course, what you said both of us are doing is trying to [00:23:00] help other people.
So there are those who reach back who volunteer with like rape crisis centers or in diverse ways, try to help. Um, even if you're not specifically telling your story.

Floss: I love what you said about the, the cocoon. Um, you know, we're trying to get the wings, but we've not even been a cocoon in, in a cocoon yet.
And I think there is a lot of frustration, all the stuff we're talking about now, all of this healing stuff. It sounds, it sounds easy. Like, like I never want to know this is not what you're doing, but for anyone listening to this, it almost sounds like all I need to do is dance or this, or, or make a podcast about sexual trauma.
And it is this, this slow journey and process. I, in my experience, I became very frustrated with the fact that I wasn't yet Okay After… Three months. Could you talk a little bit more about what the after effects of sexual trauma might look like? Because I reckon there's probably some people listening to this who may be wrote off as what they had is just bad sex, but they [00:24:00] still feel horrific and they don't know what to do.
So could we talk more about how you might feel afterwards, the long term and short term effects of sexual 

Dr Thema: trauma? And so, uh, the depression, the anxiety, and I want to name that some people's depressions shows up as what we would call irritable depression. And often when you're more irritable, people are less compassionate, right?
If you were kind of sitting there crying and sad, then some people, you know, might respond with support, but often with some survivors, they'll label you as having a bad attitude. Right, but that quote unquote, bad attitude or irritability is really a response of what you experienced. Uh, there can also be dissociation or numbness.
So when you're disconnected, if you've ever talked to someone and they're physically present, but you're clear, they're not really doing. Like the eyes are vacant and we ourselves can have that experience of kind of going through the motions of kind of walking around [00:25:00] your life, but not really feeling present.
And you may have checked out in the midst of the violation as a way of trying to get through it. Right. And so, um, it can show up in these emotional consequences. As I mentioned, concentration, it also shows up in the. So some of us, you know, culturally or by personality, aren't willing to acknowledge, uh, mental health challenges.
So we would say that we're not depressed, but we get migraines all the time. Right. So the body is telling the story, um, that we have nausea. A lot of people have back ache. And so the distress is showing up in your body, grinding your teeth at night, right? The distress is in the body- insomnia. Um, and so it can also show up in our relationships, how we relate to other people, we might become, um, more, uh, some people would label needy or clingy, but needing people to be around [00:26:00] us to kind of assure us all the time, or we might isolate and, um, keep people at a distance. And we all know people who you may know for years, but you don't feel like you really know them.
They kind of go through life with a wall up, you know, of trying to protect themselves. And that can create. This kind of self-sabotaging because sometimes you want connection, but what you are communicating is like, stay away from. Um, and so they can also even effect, as you were naming your, um, uh, school or work experience.
There was a research study that was done in the states where, um, they were trying to do what they would call here, a welfare to work program. So to take people who were. Um, relying on government assistance and to give them all jobs. And what they found is the ones who could not maintain the jobs, even when you gave it to them, were women with long-term untreated trauma.
Uh, they just were too [00:27:00] overwhelmed. They couldn't even focus or concentrate. Right. And so you think about what has made it difficult for some people to complete things? Many of us are starters, but not completers. And so, you know, trauma affects your nervous system. And so when you become overwhelmed or flooded, um, that's when people can either shut down or we can become explosive.
And so thinking about for yourself, you know, each person, what your tendency has been, if things feel stressful or unsafe or you feel unsure, do you shut down and kind of withdraw within yourself or do you respond in ways that some people would call. Over the top or that it did not match the circumstance, but you're responding really to like all of the things that you have been holding 

Floss: something entirely different to the current situation.

Dr Thema: That's right. You know, some people have coped by depending on substances, as some people cope with emotional eating, you know, trying to soothe yourself [00:28:00] in that way. Um, some people have coped in serial dating, but this idea of like, If you come to believe, the only thing I have that is a value is my body. So I want to try to kind of offer it as a way of being acceptable to people.
And some people have these kind of false notions of empowerment, which are, if I'm sharing my body with everyone, then like I'm not going to be raped. Right. Cause I'm freely giving. But it's still not really from an empowered place of really feeling comfortable within yourself. And so, you know, it can show up in these ways.
And I, and I appreciate you naming that the recovery process is a, is a long process and the word recovery kind of mixes it up because you're not going to be who you were before. Like you said, it changes. So you can still have a full life. You can have an abundant life, you can reclaim joy. Um, but [00:29:00] you are different.
You are changed as a result of the experience.

Floss: Absolutely. And it does involve grieving who you were before it happened to you. I think the hard, the hardest and most uncomfortable thing for me to acknowledge was that. What happened to me? Wasn't my fault, but it is my responsibility. I think that's the most frustrating thing was the, I did not choose this.
This was somebody else just, just dumped this enormous horrific thing. Into my life and I have to deal with it because no one is coming to save me. 

Dr Thema: Yeah. So important that we take ownership over our healing. And it's not fair because likely that other person has gone on with their life, may not even think much about it, may have done it to other people.
And you're left with these pieces and even with how unfair it is. And as you name having to grieve it. But also like getting to reclaim my pen. And what I like to say kind of [00:30:00] as metaphor is some people have written on the pages of your life and you didn't have a say so in what they wrote on your pages.
But at this point we, we claim the pen. And say, you know, what is my next chapter going to look like? What is today going to look like? What are the ways in which I can nourish and nurture myself? Because the offender, um, erased me in that moment, like did not care what I wanted or what I thought or what I said or what I felt.
And so I am not going to be in agreement with them by ignoring myself, going forward. Right. That it is a radical act is an act of resistance to say, my feelings do matter. My voice does matter. Uh, what I need does matter. And so we begin to nurture ourselves and give ourselves, uh, what we need for the support and the healing

Floss: That’s an amazing metaphor. I love, I love the pen metaphor. I think that's so empowering because. [00:31:00] It restores autonomy over your life and your body. And it gives you the choice where that choice was taken away from you. We're talking a lot about reclaiming our narrative. We're talking about actions. Why is rest important in healing?

Dr Thema: So rest is important and it's also difficult because when we are resting, usually we are silent and still. And I want to name one of the common coping strategies that often or responses that we don't always acknowledge is busy-ness. You know, many of us don't want to think about what happened, right. We don't want to remember. And so we fill our lives nonstop with uh busy-ness uh, because if I'm not still distraction, right, we want to stay distracted. Right. That end the still. Memories come up and the stillness, your fears come up. Um, [00:32:00] and so it can rob you of your rest. But one of the things that we have to come to is busy does not equal healed, you can be productive and not healed, right?
It's all distraction. 
And so when I'm healed, I can be at home with myself. You know, figuratively, right. That I can be home in my own presence and I don't need constant distraction. And rest is also important because you know, the violation was to the body, right. You know, it's to your soul and your mind and your heart as well, but directly to the body.
And so then we want to think about, am I ignoring what my body needs now? Right? Bodies need. Right. Right. Bodies need to eat a nutritious meal, bodies need water. And so if I am bodies, need touch, comfortable, touch, safe touch. Right. So if I am, um, checked out from my own body than [00:33:00] I am still like in that mode of erasure and violation, Um, and so our rest is important, not only for our physical health, but also emotional, because as you were naming earlier, this, this idea of am I enough, right. And when I don't feel I'm enough because of the violation, I'm perpetually trying to prove myself. And that's that perfectionism. So if I keep, you know, if I keep them driven, I'm driven, I'm driven, then I'm trying to prove to everyone else. And I'm trying to prove to myself that I'm enough and when I can get to that place of-

Floss: - and the I'm okay.

Dr Thema: Yes, yes. Right. We're trying to convince, convince others and ourselves. And instead to be able to say, you know, I am a human being. And I am tired and I am drained and I am empty and I'm exhausted. And I deserve rest, not just after I do a million things, but in terms of my regular practice, you know, and that's an [00:34:00] important part of our recovery.

Floss: We feel that we have to work to be able to deserve that rest. 

Dr Thema: That's right. Yeah. They'll say, oh, after all the things I've done, I deserve a date. And it's like, you might just need a day off in a preventative way. 

Floss: Yes. For sure. And then the day off would also, uh, in my case be spent, it would be spent working still.
Like it wouldn't be, I might physically be at home, but I'm still working or I'm still distracted and stuff. We're talking a lot about like spending, spending time in the body being important because maybe you dissociated from the incident while it was happening. And you came out of your body to. Be able to get through maybe what was happening and spending time in your body being an important thing.
I've written my book that the most empowering thing I did was buy my first sex toy after I was assaulted. And that was, you know, talking about dancing and all of this kind of stuff that was really tricky for me to do, but it completely changed my relationship with my body and it made it- [00:35:00] slowly over time- felt like it was mine again.
And I think that's also really important. 

Dr Thema: Yes. So important because we often, particularly as women are taught either, um, you know, to erase and disconnect from our body and from bodily pleasure, uh, and or to use our bodies in service to other people. Right. So it's like, their pleasure is important. So it becomes very performative of like, how do I need to move so that I will be chosen, right?
How can I be sexy to them so that I can be deemed good enough and what feels good to them? And if I pleased them, then I will receive these benefits of whatever that benefit is you're looking for. Right. And losing sight of our own pleasure. Right. Our own pleasure, our own enjoyment, uh, our knowing [00:36:00] of our own bodies and not, uh, just being there for other people to act upon for their pleasure.

Floss: So you ended up, you ended up using your body as this tool to get what you want from other people because of how they might respond to it, based on how you move your body, even like when you're having sex, I've spoke to loads of women about this. It's almost like this imagined outer gaze. And we're thinking about what we look like from the outer gaze, what, during intercourse, because we think that that's how the person will want us instead of being in our bodies, even still, when we're, when we think we're engaging in sex, we’re still thinking about how we look from the outside, which has done again, method of dissociation from the body.

Dr Thema: right? That's right. And how some of us have been taught to use Um, our bodies for a reward. So that reward could be a ring, that reward could be praise or the attention of someone who we deemed to be special in some ways. [00:37:00] So, you know, if we talk about sexual violation being kind of like invisibility, or like not having voice or power, you know, being silenced. And then if people imagine that their place of empowerment or healing or wellness is to be perpetually in service of other people's gaze. Right. That I'm empowered now, but I'm really just posting my body, hoping that you'll like me. Right. And what will your comments be? And will you say that I'm beautiful and then I'm going to feel broken if not enough people liked it.
Um, that, that is also, you know, really not empowered or. 

Floss: Um, I think that there are a lot of ways myself included that I have tricked myself into thinking that everything is okay. Particularly what you said about the keeping yourself busy thing. I think I literally said to someone the other day that they asked me, like, what do you do to relax?
I just said, I don't like I don't. Um, and I think it's realizing that I rarely have. [00:38:00] Stillness, you know, it can be physically still, but I'll still be entertaining myself with something or I'll be writing. And I still- althought writing is a process of like untangling the thoughts and the processing- You can sometimes overprocess and I think read too many books.
That was another thing that I feel like I've done as, as, as another coping mechanism was almost reading too much into the experiences and intellectualizing them because instead of just feeling it and resting. 

Dr Thema: I'm so glad you, you are, you know, sharing that part of your journey because I think it is a part that often gets overlooked because, you know, people may say, oh, you know, I'm not depressed. I'm not dependent on drugs. I'm not like any of these, I don't have flashbacks. Um, But not able to relax, right? Not able to have fun, not able to let go, not, you know, able to like really have stillness. So that kind of mindfulness piece and really being, as we say, landing [00:39:00] in the moment, am I ever. Really grounded in this moment or am I constantly, even as you said, where my body is still, my mind is racing ahead, trying to prepare for the next best thing.
Right. Chasing that, um, satisfaction. That is never quite enough because when you're in that place, even when you accomplish something, you don't really take it in like you're okay. What's next? What's next? Right. So we want to do 

Floss: absolutely. 

Dr Thema: Yeah. Yeah. So to be able to celebrate yourself and to, and to be present in the moment of like, um, I'm not going to constantly chase and seek out, uh, enough-ness. Right. I'm already. Okay. Not more than, okay. Right. I am already worthy of rests of pleasure of joy, of love, including the love of myself. Yeah. 

Floss: I think, you know what you were saying. [00:40:00] Like when I said to them, I'll be physically still, but my mind is still whiring and racing. It is a state of fight or flight I feel. And I feel like this is common with survivors as well. It's that fight or flight waiting almost for the next thing to happen. So never fully relaxing. And I feel like that speaks to the hyper-vigilance that you were talking about. Um, a friend pointed out to me once I hear noises, like I'm very acutely aware of my surroundings, during a period of my life after the assault.
Um, and that was when that was brought to my attention. It was something that I had never seen. And I was grateful to my friend who pointed that out to me, but it was, and then that's something that I worked on and trying to relax. And you know, something I've been doing lately is just going to the pub and dancing and that previously was something that was really full of anxiety. There was always this fear in the back of my head of being out and being seen in public, um, particularly with a high profile now as well. But now I've, I've just been going to the pub and dancing. And it's the most, you know, you don't, you don't tell survivors, go to the pub and dance and you'll be [00:41:00] fine, but I, there have been these little pockets of joy for myself.

Dr Thema: Yes it’s a part of it!

Floss: It is, it is. I feel like you have to push against your fears, right. To be able to live again and soar and thrive.

Dr Thema: That's right. And I I'm so glad you named the hyper-vigilance because that's a part of why some people can't relax is when something good happens, they're waiting for the bed. And I have to brace myself.
I need to prepare for it. I'm constantly scanning the environment for the next disaster. And so that is also what can rob us from the joy, because it's like, even if this was a good day, You know, I have a client who will say, but what about tomorrow? Maybe tomorrow is going to be bad, but today was good.
And I love that you said, you know, going out and going dancing, because sometimes we have these very, um, Western, some people say colonized notions of what healing is, which is like two people in a room with no windows talking for 50 minutes. And that is how you heal. [00:42:00] Well, you know, therapy is a part of the process, but yes. Dancing. Yes. Loving. Yes. Talking to people. Yes. Cooking. Yes. Gardening- you know, a full life, you know, a full life is as a part of the healing. 

Floss: Yes! A full life. Absolutely. Yeah. ****
I really want to move on to my listener questions now. So these are questions that people have been sending in through my Instagram. Okay. So here's a question from, uh, one of my followers on Instagram: I found that I've become hypersexual after my. Is this a normal coping mechanism to have lots of sex often rape?

Dr Thema: Yes. So for some people, um, it does go into that realm and a part of what, you know, you where others may be doing as they are engaging in that is trying to kind of reclaim your power. So this sense of like someone else took this from me. [00:43:00] So if I am. Um, consenting, if I'm going out and doing it, I'm in control.
So it's like people trying to have a corrective experience, um, of the violation didn’t feel good, so now I am choosing right? I am getting to choose it. I am choosing in this way. In that moment, you might feel empowered. But the internal work, we say the cocoon part will still need to happen. 

Floss: Okay. I think a lot of people probably experienced that.
So that's going to be really helpful. Um, the next question I have is: When should I tell the person I'm dating about my trauma and about my triggers? Yes. I think this one's quite interesting because. Also, I feel like that's information to be with a trusted person as well. 

Dr Thema: Yes. So, you know, I would say it's not like a certain number of dates or certain, uh, amount of time with the person.
It is more, you know, the relationship and, um, you know, kind of the indicators, uh, that this person [00:44:00] is, as you said, as safe person to share with. So you can even get into a larger conversation about, you know, sexual assault. Because sometimes as you see in social media, the way some people respond to sexual assault is to always disbelief to say, you know, uh, women lie or women, this or women that.
And so you want to have a sense of like, where does this person stand on the issue, you know, to figure out is this a safe person for me to share and to talk with about it. Um, and then, you know, I would say when we're talking about like deep relationships or like real intimacy, you know, intimacy is being known, not just physically, but emotionally.
So you do want the person who you are choosing to spend this part of your life with, to fully know you. And so sometimes we can feel like, you know, people know our representative, [00:45:00] right? How we're presenting ourselves. Um, but if you have in your mind, you know, if they knew this part about me, I'm not sure they would still like me or love me, then that's an issue.
Right. Cause then you don't really feel known and seen and accepted and understood. And so, you know, it's a, it is a part of your journey. So as you all, um, are knowing each other and I have found. Transparency. Brings more transparency, you know, so if you share more personal things about yourself, they may share more things about their experience.
Um, and then, you know, being able and comfortable to share it. And some people do it sooner, um, than others. But I think that, you know, overall it is something that should be shared if this is a real intimate relationship. 

Floss: I think that was a really good point. You made about perhaps bringing up sexual assault in conversation to, to test the waters of how they respond to that Uh, way to gauge if they're a safe, safe [00:46:00] person or not. I think that's a really great way without bringing up your own experiences. So here's another one. This one came up a lot- there were thousands, so we boiled them down: I'm so scared to have sex and it's not enjoyable for me anymore due to fear. How do I learn to trust myself and other people again?

Dr Thema: So such a common experience. And we heard like the first question and this question, it's kind of like opposite ends of the spectrum, right? So some people becoming very sexually active and then some people like, um, you know, really stepping away from the sexual space.
And so, you know, just some pointers, um, for that. It is helpful. Um, it, especially in those cases where it's difficult, to share with your partner, Um, your history. So that they can be patient and sensitive and tuned in to what might be triggering for you like to be touched in a certain way, or for some people, a certain position is [00:47:00] especially problematic because it's the position of the violation.
Um, and so to be able to have that communication with them, it will help if you can talk about, um, about your experience. Uh, another pointer I say is to have some level of lighting, uh, in the room and to have your eyes open, you are much more likely to go into that past experience if it's pitch black, or if you have your eyes closed. Cause then all you're having is like the physical sensation. So it was like, I need to know where I am and who I am. And I see, so I am connected to the person in the present instead of getting caught up in my past. Right. Um, and then sometimes it can also help what we've talked about, like sensate focus, which is focusing on sensation over penetration, meaning penetrations, the thing that is scary or painful to say, like, to kind of have an agreement [00:48:00] that this exchange or, you know, that today is just about foreplay. Right. Cause sometimes you're bracing yourself and you can't even enjoy the foreplay because you're so stressed about what is coming. But if you say like that part is off the table today, less just like explore and enjoy each other's bodies. Then some of that anxiety, um, can go down. Um, and then for people who it is actually physically painful for, there are actual like kind of, uh, medical and psychotherapeutic interventions to help with that because, um, for some, it'll just be a matter of like more relaxation and mindfulness or meditation or the foreplay or communication, but for some people, your body is actually kind of locking down and shutting down and that is making it more painful. Um, so then needing a support to work through that. 

Floss: Okay. Amazing. There's so much advice in there? Um, [00:49:00] I have another question. How do you get past the need to prove that it happened when others don't believe you? So the need for other people to understand you?
Yeah. 

Dr Thema: What you're wanting is not so outrageous or so extreme. It should really be very basic. And then at the same time, um, many don't receive that kind of belief and support. Um, so you know, one of the things that was helpful for me and in understanding all the kind of victim blaming is in social psychology we have this construct called belief in a just world. And so a lot of people want to believe the world is just, and if the world is just good, things happen to good people. And if something bad happens to you, it means you did something wrong. So, uh, that is people's way of trying to assure their own safety.
Right. If I don't do wrong things, bad things won't happen to me. So when you say you're violated, some people's mind automatically goes to trying to [00:50:00] figure out what you did wrong. What did you wear? Right. What did you drink? Why did you go there? And I would never do that and because I would never do that, I am safe. Right, because if they can blame you, then they know what not to do. And, um, the reality is we don't live in a just world. Uh, and so they want to justify, excuse it, or explain it. So I want to name that it is painful to not be believed. And there is grief in there. There could be anger in there as well.
And, um, what helps is, um, to, to connect with people who do believe you. I know a lot of times we just want to tell people as long as you know, the truth, that's all that matters. But the reality is, as you said, it is important for you to have connections with people who do believe you and who support you.

Floss: Absolutely. That was amazing that the just world concept, I'd not heard of that before. And that just made a lot of [00:51:00] sense for me about, I think I might have had that view and then my world turned completely upside down where I couldn't make sense of why it was happening. And so then I would jump to the self-blame. And I think that's what a lot of victims of sexual abuse, probably go to themselves because they too have this just world view where they think, okay, no one would do this to someone. If there wasn't something that I did. 

Dr Thema: oh, it must've just been a miscommunication. Right? Maybe they didn't hear me when I said no.
Or they, they didn't mean it. They do really like me. It was a mistake. So, you know, we want to try. Dilute the experience, uh, to, to be able to try to make sense of it. And also the self-blame is the social messages we get, but also the desire for control, right. If I can figure out what I did wrong, that I'll [00:52:00] never do it again, and it won't happen to me.
Right. So that is the, you know, a part of that pull. So what we talk about is while, you know, Um, we can do things to try to reduce our risk, but when it comes to prevention, that is really the offender to not rape people. Right. And they, as people said, instead of giving like a long handout to women of all the things they should try to do to stay safe, you know, to teach boys and men not to not to rape, not to assault. And as I said, also women offenders as well. You know, this messaging that we, that a lot of, uh, uh, men get, which is that their job is to convince right. That people are gonna say no, but you just have to kind of wear them down. You just keep pressing, keep pressing, keep pressing, and even see this in our, in the film industry, right. Where they have these quote unquote Tussling scenes. And then it turns into consensual. Um, a lot of pornography with women of color involves, uh, violence. And [00:53:00] so, you know, all of these pieces, uh, promote these notions that our bodies should be available to anyone who wants them.  

Floss: I want to end on one question.
Um, what's one myth that you would like to bust about healing from sexual. 

Dr Thema: One myth for, uh, sexual trauma survivors to push back on is the idea that we are a damaged. That if you believe we are just broken beyond repair, that we are just damaged, uh, because that can promote this idea of unworthiness. Right.
This idea of like, who would want me or that I am incapable of being in a loving relationship, or I am incapable of, uh, having healthy relationship with my body and sexuality. Um, and I will say, uh, it is a myth while it is hard. [00:54:00] And as you said, it can take, you know, a lot of time in terms of your process, uh, that there are many sexual trauma survivors who are, uh, living lives, uh, where they can feel good about themselves, where they have built healthy relationships, where they do have joy, where some do enjoy sex. And those stories often don't get told, which is why I think it's important that you and I talk about being survivors because many times people only see examples of survivors when they're in a very devastated place. So the picture people have in their minds of what does a survivor look like? It is someone who is broken down and who is fallen apart. And when we manage to put the pieces together, we often don't tell our stories. So people don't have a visual of what can life look like on the other side of this? And I'm glad that two of us, the two of us are some examples of what [00:55:00] life can look like in the aftermath. 

Floss: Absolutely. God, that's such a beautiful way to end this episode, Dr. Thema, it's been so amazing talking to you. I know this is going to help a lot of people.

Dr Thema: Oh, thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it. 

Floss: I was actually a bit nervous about doing this episode today with Dr. Thema, but she has such a way of bringing lightness to the heavy, probably one of the heaviest topics that we're going to be discussing in this podcast. I really hope that it brings some healing to you, some comfort and to know that you're not alone.
And to know that there are so many ways that people deal with Sexual trauma. I love what she had to say today. And I really hope that anyone listening to this can find some kind of healing and comfort from it. And if you have a friend that's experienced assault or is going through something, then please share this episode.
Share Dr. Thema’s, uh, Instagram. You can follow Dr. Tamer at Dr. Full-stop Thema, spelled T H EMA, and you can find her [00:56:00] books on Drthema.com. Don't forget, next week. It's all about you for the fourth part. Series on sex. You're going to be able to join myself and my guest, Alix Fox, to answer all of your questions for my listener call in.

Any questions or dilemmas that you have to do with sexuality, queer identity or anything else? If you have something you want to discuss or need advice, drop me a line on WhatsApp at + 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5. And a massive thank you to the fucking incredible Black Honey who composts the original theme music for my show. You can find them at Blackhoney.co.uk and check out their latest album, written and directed. To keep updated with all the latest episodes as they drop, you can follow exactly podcast on apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And please do take the time to rate and leave us a review on apple podcast or wherever you listen to your podcast. It really does help people to find us and to make sure that the people who need [00:57:00] to hear these conversations do. And for some juicy bonus content, you can become a subscriber on apple podcasts and ask me anything you want. I'll be answering all of your questions. 

This is a podcast from Somethin’ Else. My producer is Milly Chowles'. Assistant producer is Ella McLeod. Executive producer is Carly Maille and production coordinator is Lily Hambly. Additional production from Chris Skinner and a special thank you to our engineers, Jay Beale, Josh Gibbs and Gulli Lawrence Tickell.