EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 6: FEMINISM: Trans Liberation, Culture Wars and Class with Shon Faye

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello, you're listening to exactly with me Florence Given. I hope you're doing well. Thank you so much for tuning in again this week and for all of your incredible feedback and comments, it honestly really does give me such joy to hear from you. I love that people are having conversations about exactly online. I love hearing about what you're learning from my guests. I love hearing the bits that you love. Just, just keep sending it my way. I absolutely love it. Throughout this podcast, I'm diving into some really big and important subjects. So far we've covered sex and still to come are social media relationships and body image.
But today we're exploring the subject of feminism. I literally cannot wait for you to hear this episode with my incredibly intelligent and wise guest, Shon Faye. At the end of the episode, we'll be answering your questions on feminism and trans liberation that you've sent in by my Instagram stories, which is such a vital conversation to be having right now. [00:01:00] In the fourth episode of this miniseries on feminism, remember that I want to hear from you, my guest, and I will be answering your calls, your texts and your voice notes. So any questions or dilemmas that you have to do with feminism? Just drop me a line on my podcast whatsApp. The number is plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5.

One of the most divisive and pressing issues, within feminism at the moment is the divide on trans issues. It's a really sad thing to say, but it feels really urgent to address it and educate ourselves more deeply on the topic. I have an enormous audience and I feel a personal responsibility to inform my audience, the people who listen to me and the people who are gonna be listening to this podcast to listen to the voices of the people who are also at the forefront of the trans liberation movement.
There is so much misinformation and dehumanization of trans people in the media causing hysteria about [00:02:00] marginalized group, which doesn't even comprise of 1% of the UK population. There's a real generational divide here between old school feminism and my peers who were the younger generation and bringing on the much needed new wave of trans-inclusive feminism.
And of course, I know that that's a massive generalization, neither side old school or new wave is a homogenous block. I'm sure there's plenty of people, my age, who still debate trans women's place in feminism and older women who are more vocal about their liberation, but this is the pattern that I've seen on the whole.
In this episode on feminism, I want to explore why this divide exists and where it comes from with my incredible guest Shon Faye. I'm absolutely in awe of Shon and her intelligence, her courage and her authority on this subject. She's also extremely glamorous and hilarious. I love following her on Instagram.
Shon is a writer, editor, journalist, and presenter known for her commentary on LGBTQ plus, women's and mental health issues. She hosts the podcast, Call Me [00:03:00] Mother and is the author of the book, the Transgender Issue: An argument for justice. I can't recommend it enough. If you read one book on trans rights, make it this one. Trans women are a part of feminism and they're definitely a part of my feminism.
In this episode. I want to learn a little more from Shon about how we can be more inclusive of trans women in our everyday lives and politics. 

Floss: Okay, Shon, I'm so excited to talk to you today, before we get into it. I want to go through my Floss' high five questions. Um, just say the first thing that comes to your mind, I ask all of my guests they're completely random has nothing to do with anything.
Okay. So question one, what's one thing that sets your soul on fire? 

Shon Faye: Sequins. 

Floss: Oh, amazing. Okay, great. If you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life and look that would define you forever, what would that be? Sequins?. 

Shon Faye: I mean, yeah a thigh high boot and a sequinned dress. 

Floss: Oh god amazing! Okay, cool. Uh, what's something that people frequently misunderstand [00:04:00] or get wrong about you?

Shon Faye: Uh, people tend to think I'm a much more serious person than I am. 

Floss: Yeah, I get that a lot as well. Okay. Finish the sentence. I'm still a work in progress when it comes to. 

Shon Faye: Everything. 

Floss: Okay. Any specifics? 

Shon Faye: I'm still a work in progress when it comes to cooking. I still can't prepare myself a full meal. 

Floss: Yeah, so like lots of uber eats, deliveroo...

Shon Faye: Exactly,

Floss: Okay. When was the last time you majorly cringed at yourself? 

Shon Faye: Oh, my God. I get tagged to the, on Instagram, on like work I made, like I did a monologue for the Tate Britain in like 2017, about my early transition and someone tagged me in it and I watched a little bit of it and I had to switch it off. It was so embarrassing.
Cause it was so earnest the time, but obviously it's like, it's like seeing photos of yourself as a teenager. And I think transition makes you like have a teenage experience second time. 

Floss: Wow. Yeah. Well, that's, that's so amazing. Um, obviously like horrific as well, but I don't think of it like [00:05:00] yeah. 

Shon Faye: Both, transitioning publicly is a pill.

Floss: Wow. So the first question I want to ask you is what led you to writing the book? 

Shon Faye: So I had been working as a journalist, like freelance, trying to do. Left wing, liberal media and some of the newer media like fashion magazines and stuff like that for a long time. And I never really had the space or the editors with a clue to like really write this stuff about trans issues I wanted to, and I really felt the conversation publicly was getting really derailed about the same sort of talking points that had nothing to do with what me or my friends cared about.
All the like real issues affecting like some of my friends really quite badly. And so, yeah, I just felt the conversation become derailed. Trans people were increasingly nowhere to be seen in like mainstream media, at least. Um, whereas they had been there like five years ago, but it's just become so toxic.
I think a lot of people don't want to do it. Um, and so I felt like it was necessary to like have a re. Um, somehow, and I'd seen how other people had done that with books. So like [00:06:00] Reni Eddo Lodge with Why I'm No Longer Talking To White People About Race, had managed to have the conversation that she wanted to about race without having to like go on good morning Britain or whatever 

Floss: you speak about how this is like a uniquely British thing.
The way that the media targets trans people not unique to British people. The British media has a very strange way of doing it and turning trans people who are under one percent of the population into something to be feared. Where do you think the fear comes from? 

Shon Faye: One is just like, you know, very basic people are afraid of difference and things they don't understand or know.
And unfortunately, because we're such a small segment of the population, we're really susceptible to harmful myths, prejudicial tropes, and those are really embedded in our culture. We've had. You know, like decades of media mockery until quite recently, we've had a lot of cultural misrepresentation, psycho, silence of the lambs, like in cinema, like this idea that trans people, particularly trans women, are kind of creepy or predatory.
Um, so th those are kind of, they're embedded and it's very easy to [00:07:00] tap into those. So I think the fear comes sometimes from fear of difference. It can be tapped into, I think for some cis-gender women, it can come from a, genuine anxieties, they have around male violence. And, um, the fact that misogynist violence, domestic violence, et cetera, isn't something as a society we've really tackled and we've taken away all the services because of austerity policies.
There isn't the funding for proper services to really help women. And I think it's easy for the media, especially the right wing media instead of blaming the government or whoever's defunded these things to kind of blame a minority group. Um, and it's kind of like this anxiety that trans men know like damaged women who are trying to leave womenhood and trans women are kind of like interlopers.
So I think those are the like two huge sources fears. And also there's the kind of fear that we might, we might be trying to convert and recruit, um, young people. Which is really similar to like how anti-gay panics happened in the eighties and nineties as well. Like this idea that like, we might be a small population now, but, um, we we're recruiting [00:08:00] more and more young people, which obviously more people are coming out younger because there's more of us that are like visible in society.
Um, and obviously like if you see more trans people around more people question their own gender in the same way, like, you know, all the studies shows that more people identify as queer, more people see themselves as sexually fluid or BI or whatever. Um, which is funny because yeah, in the eighties, I think people were like, oh, you know, they're gonna turn everyone gay.
And actually a lot of my gay companies that were like, no, no, we're not, you can't make some gay, but I do actually think probably more people are queer now because yeah, it's just more acceptable and you have like more space to think about these things. It probably means that you tap into things that people never did.

Floss: Yeah. But it's, it's about awakening that in you, what is already valid, you can't make someone gay. That's just the homophobic stuff that comes with that as well. And it's like, it's all about the children and protecting the children when actually it could completely liberate children from heteronormativity and all of this kind of stuff and all the ideas that we have about gender.
And yet another question I really wanted to ask you is [00:09:00] how do we maintain curiosity as cis-gender people without being offensive? Because I feel as a queer woman, when straight people ask me questions about queerness, it's always about sex and yeah. My sex life. And how do queer girls have sex and how do, and it's one of the it's always quite intrusive.
And I feel that that's what I've seen with trans women as well. All the questions refer back to toilets, genitals, bathrooms, and all of this kind of stuff. Could you give some tips for anyone listening and myself included? How do we have conversations and be curious? And open to understanding without being fucking offensive and rude.

Shon Faye: Yeah. Well, we've got a lot of it's context, isn't it? Like, obviously if I'm on a panel or doing a podcast or like discussing my book, you know, I'm kind of there to discuss some of this stuff. So I do feel like it's good to be as open as possible because like the role I'd given myself, I can be. Other context, like, you know, Christmas party, whatever.
And I just don't want to talk [00:10:00] about it. And I'm quite like quite offended that someone wants to really get into it with me because it's like, this is my, don't you respect that this is my downtime, which obviously, like, I understand why particularly in my case, people might do that. I'm unusual because I've set myself up to talk about these issues.
But the majority of the trans person you meet, like socially hasn't volunteered themselves for that role at all. But I think the curiosity thing is, is that unfortunately our people. Any trans person in front of them and expect them to be a receptacle for all their curiosity. And also there's a difference, right?
I think I'm all about like political like alliances and for a lot of that stuff, if it's about like wanting to be like in solidarity with trans people and actually fight for trans people's rights alongside your own, you don't actually need to know loads of personal stuff about us to do that. Like it's quite separate.
It's, it's calmed down a lot now. Younger people kind of know that asking loads about surgery or whatever is a bit like crass, but like yeah, people, people still will. The other thing as well, I mean, as a, as a trans woman is sometimes you can [00:11:00] tell what people are kind of othering you without even realizing like you're so beautiful, you do make up better than me-

Floss: The overcompensation-

Shon Faye: you wouldn't be saying this to me. If I was a cisgender woman, it kind of is like making my femininity more spectacular at the kitchen table at a friend's party. Do you know what I mean? That kind of subtle othering. That's like your tree. You are treating someone as like different, without meaning to, and I, and I understand that, especially from amongst women, I think it comes from a good place because I think kike does this idea of welcoming, especially trans women who were early on, but like, I shot a campaign a few years ago. And, um, we were staying in the same hotel, me and this other girl who was in the campaign. And we were getting like a taxi to the studio in the morning. She asked what I did for other work. And I was like, I'm working with an LGBT charity. She was like, are you a lesbian?
I, uh, you know, I'm a trans woman. And she was like, oh, I didn't, I didn't realize. And she was like, well, you look great. And obviously like it was nervousness, but you know, like the subtle light implication there is that she wasn't expecting me to look great. That instant thing is [00:12:00] that like, I'm here to do as a trans woman is that like, I've succeeded if she thinks I got good, which, you know, I, I think is about a wider beauty standards thing for women, but like you get that reminder the whole time. It's like, oh yeah. Well, I'm fulfilling the function of being palatable because you think I look appropriately feminine.

Floss: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it also speaks to the safety or other unsafety that trans women experiences that like, if you I know the conversations about passing and stuff like this, it speaks to the fact that she's like, oh, well you look good. It's like, you look like not trans is like what she's saying? 

Shon Faye: Kind of yeah What's that like, you know, women don't know you pretty is that like with trans women it's. Thing, but it's like intensified really is that, you know, I feel weird about saying this it's hard to not feel like you're sort of like weirdly implying that you're pretty in a kind of way. So you agree, but like, if you look at like who gets a media platform amongst you, including trans men, trans masculine people is, yeah.
It tends to be the people that kind [00:13:00] of, of like satisfying the most. , the safest form of like, whatever gender expression, you know, like trans women are all like long hair and obviously not all trans women are like that, like, right. But like all the trans women who get like a media platform, I like long hair feminine, you know, tend to be like, oh, I date men.
You know, all these things that put people at ease rather than being a queer gender non-conforming trans womem and similarly with trans masculine, it's kind of like white thin androgynous. Yeah, all that stuff. It's like, it puts people at kind of ease. 

Floss: Yeah. well you compared it to women to you perceive whether it's there is the, um, the quote around social media, that's like trans women don't owe you hyper femininity?
I felt like that's what you're saying. 

Shon Faye: Basically not like there was nowhere to come here without make up. And the reason being, I think is yes, you were punished very severely for it.

Floss: Okay. So can we break it down a little bit about what radical feminism is and why they're so often associated with transphobia . [00:14:00] And being a TERF? 


Shon Faye: Radical feminism. And in itself isn't necessarily transphobic. What radical feminist means is it's from the second wave of feminism in the seventies, um, really is that there was a very different, many different schools of feminist thought.
So like a classic example would have been like socialist feminists who said they've got the, the sort of central oppression of women was through the class system. And that like, Capitalism and that like, you know, like women did all the unpaid labor in the home and then look working class men went out to do all the kind of work, be exploited for their labor.
And it required women to stay at home, raise children and be trapped. And so socialist feminists had that lens, et cetera. And then radical feminists broke out in the seventies and split off from the socialist feminist movement. And we're like, no, First and foremost, like oppression that, that preexists all oppressions is the oppression of men over women it's existed throughout all human history.
It's rooted in sexual violence. Yeah. It's the fundamental oppression on which pretty much all other oppressions are modeled. So a lot of like associate's feminists and black feminists I think already [00:15:00] had some critiques of that idea that like this like hierarchy of men over women. It's just very, very simplistic, I guess.
And you know, some of them are like lesbian separatists, so they like really believed like they had, some of them had all female communes, they would take their female children, not their male children. You know, a lot of them did things like set up women's refuges. That's where the refuge movement comes from is because, um, they had things called consciousness raising groups where they would sit around and a lot of them hadn't realized, you know, that they were being like emotionally, physically, sexually abused by their husbands or the, you know, by their fathers or so. So there was quite a lot of pain, I think. And obviously it meshed into for some, this real kind of, um, separatism from men and women. And this idea that men are the oppressors women are the victims always.
And then the trouble is, is that like trans women started to like appear in political circles in the seventies. And they became quite quickly a fixation of this like movement for some, because obviously they saw them as like males, men who were like [00:16:00] infiltrating. Um, taking up space, dominating things, you see this a lot in the literature.
And so, um, particularly if they were trans women who were attracted to women, so quite quickly there starts to become like this like discourse in feminism. So there was a book called the transsexual empire, the making of the shemale by a radical feminist called Janice Raymond. And she basically said the all transsexuals are rapists because they appropriate women's bodies.
They infiltrate womanhood. And they, yeah. And so, so there's quite toxic demonization starts in like feminist thought, like towards the ends, you know, towards the seventies. And at this point it's really minority group because feminism wasn't that popular. It's not like it is now where like, sort of saying you're a feminist is less controversial, 

Floss: so radical feminism was in the minority?. 

Shon Faye: Really a minority, I mean feminism full-stop like in the seventies, it wasn't like most women would have called themselves a feminist. Whereas I think the term feminist for like millennial and gen Z women has become a lot. 

Floss: Yeah, it's in the lexicon. Like, it's there... 

Shon Faye: And I think that this thing we're living through now of like [00:17:00] feminist thought yes.
Started with like a rise of a new wave of feminism online and suddenly, I don't know quite what it was, but it just like at the same time, Trans people start to become more visible and this like feminist resurgence happen online. It was all of these anti-trans feminist radical feminist discourses kind of started, but like this, this time round, they're not just about like real radical political separatists, lesbian feminists.
Cause that's very few people it's become much more like of a weird, strange Motley crew of like kind of homophobes some quite misogynous men, some people who just find trans people creepy. I mean, I think it's worth saying that it's the same as like the homophobe that just finds two men kissing a bit gross is that there are some people that just find the idea of a man in a dress quote unquote, creepy. And yeah, there were some of those like older generation of feminists in there too. Um, and they've all kind of formed a bit of an unholy Alliance. And I think what we're seeing now is like a [00:18:00] huge radicalization movement online on, on social media where they're recruiting more and more people in. 

Floss: And that makes a lot of sense about, in my head, the word radical feminist, it sounds like a good thing. Practical fact, it sounds like, okay, this is someone who really, you know, dies for their beliefs. And then you read into it. You're like, oh, actually radical feminists are associated with TERFs. And I didn't know anything about even what radical feminists.
It was just two words in my head to me. 

Shon Faye: I mean, there are, there were some in, there was some radical feminists who all, trans-inclusive , there have always been some. The trouble is radical feminists is that they, you know, is in general. Even the ones that are trans-inclusive like they tend to, they tend to be quite anti, like sex worker because they like also obsessed with porn with, um, with prostitution.
You know, we, we now tend to think of being a feminist is a good person, but there are some schools of it that can be gone, you know, pretty racist, pretty, pretty misogynistic, pretty like, um, moralistic and can involve cruelty, just like any political ideology. Like it doesn't make you a good person. You still have to [00:19:00] think about.
You know, whether your, your principles are making you actually be hurtful to people. 

Floss: Or aligning with your actions and how you treat people as well. And you speak about in the book, how, um, transphobia is a class issue as well. Can you talk more about that and how those 
are interlinked? 

Shon Faye: One of the ways I was seeing trends, issues being talked about on Instagram, on Twitter, especially by like people who would call themselves allies.
Was this identity thing about, we've got to respect people's identities. You're either valid or you're not valid. You've got to validate people, trans rights or human rights, trans women and women, this stuff. And I was like, yeah, cool. But like, it leads some people who have more left wing politics. I don't go what the, like where the politics is here, because this all seems just about identity. And it seems a little bit like individualistic. And what I thought was missing was like actually being trans like really severely affects your working prospects affects how much you're likely to earn the kind of work you do, the precarity in which you live your life. Um, it has a really huge material impact on people and, and therefore like trans [00:20:00] workers as a rule, like-
the trouble is I'm an exception, right? Like, cause I, I always say this because I'm sure there are people willing to be like, well, you seem to be fine. That's the bind, right? It's the people like me and Munroe Bergdorf. And like the people that you see doing public facing work do tend to be the privileged ones.
Like we get platforms and then we sort of become atypical of other trans people. So I talk about this in the book. The first time I ever met a trans person, I was just a student. Right. But the trans people working there were like full time and like really badly paid call center work where you're on zero hours contract.
And it was interesting because there were a lot of like, uh, Somali, Muslim women who wore the veil and trans women working together in these kind of call centers. And it kind of makes sense because it's like, well, these were customer service roles while you didn't have to face the public and you'd have to experience harassment, you can just speak.
Um, but they were really badly paid. You weren't treated very well. I know I was kind of interested in that, like, you know, like how, even the fact that that's like two different groups of women that like, [00:21:00] experienced like a lot of harassment, how- 

Floss: That front facing aspect was taken away and that's what made it a safer job.

Shon Faye: Yeah, exactly. Um, and yeah, and that ties into the sex work thing, right? It's like, that's why most trans women, I know for example, have done. Sex work- more have that haven't done some kind of sex work. Uh, and the reality of that is because probably in some cases it can be better working conditions than what you might be able to get outside of sex work, which is like that that's, that's it like if you've got like all these medical expenses to pay, to fund your transition, the NHS is really slow.
You're gonna to be treated really badly and harassed by colleagues. It's quite easy to see why you would go on only fans or, um, 

Floss: because you're in control. Yeah, exactly. 

Shon Faye: Even while you would do in-person sex work. I mean, it just is like a fact of like financial need. Also the fact that like, compared to like the daily difficulty of like working with people that they might be like making fun of your identity, it's the fact that you might be constantly worried about being [00:22:00] fired, you know, You could, it's not that hard to see why it becomes attractive,even with the risks. 

Floss: We've seen this happen with so many marginalized groups where it's so ironic that a group of people who take up such a small percentage of the population in the UK are being scapegoated blamed for a lot of, we've literally seen this happen for our history and yet trans people could not be more disenfranchised.
In in the UK and in the media. And even in, even about like the work that you're talking about, it's like, this is a class issue. And yet trans people are being made out to be, and your book, you talk about bullies in the press and all that kind of stuff. And it's the other way round, but that's obviously like an intentional tactic to further disenfranchise trans people. 
Well, yet people are coming out younger and younger, which is great. Um, and the people go like, oh yeah, gen Z is Z or Zed, whatever. They don't have a problem with this. You know, actually it's great that people are coming out younger, but it also means that like, uh, AKT, the charity that provides [00:23:00] um, support young homeless, LGBTQ plus people has seemed like it was like 10 years ago, 5% of their user base was trans. And now it's 35% and-

Shon Faye: Albert Kennedy trust? 

Floss: Yeah. The numbers of trans young people experiencing homelessness are going up because they're coming out younger. But then that doesn't mean the family are any more accepting or their communities are communities any more accepting, more younger, you are made homeless. The more homelessness is going to follow your whole life. It trenches itself. It's one of those systemic social issues. Yeah. So, again, that's a class issue, right? Under funding services. And then that's something we never see talked about the media.
I think we see a lot about pronouns and diversity inclusion in already quite bougie workspaces, but we don't really see much. The media is kind of failed us in that respect.. 
Well, like you said, pronouns and all this stuff that happens in offices, it helps, but it doesn't ensure the safety of trans people. And one of the most shocking statistics I learned from your book is that, is it 50% of trans people have been at suicide risk or have felt suicidal?

Shon Faye: Yeah, pretty much around that usually. I mean, I'm a really privileged [00:24:00] trans person and I felt suicidal. So, you know, it's like, I'm always one for not flinging suicide statistics around too much. Like, you know, I would never be like doing it kind of casually be one because I don't want to do sensitize people to it. 

Floss: I understand that.

Shon Faye: And two, you should be respecting trans people whether or not that the suicidal ideation rates are so high, but I do think. I do think it's important sometimes to reflect on like, yeah, the people who have not fulfilled their potential, it's really heartbreaking because of their class position, because of, you know, an NHS system that's just now getting worse and worse, and spiralling out of control in its inability to help trans people and yeah, and also because of mental health services not being funded and that's something that loads of- trans people are one of many groups to experience complex mental health issues. It's really frustrating that like, when we're focusing on like this kind of culture, war staff as a society, I mean, or like truly. Yeah. With, with focusing on [00:25:00] whether trans women are too feminine or whether yeah. Whether you should be, whether there should be gender neutral toilets and public facilities 

Floss: Well it all comes back to the toilets, for some reason, what do you think is behind that?

Shon Faye: And you know what, it's just like that's so it's just so funny, isn't it? I mean, that's what happens particularly so on Instagram, but when I had Twitter, I don't have any more thing, God. 

Floss: Oh, wow. That's amazing. Good for you.

Shon Faye: On there is where I think a lot of that really sort of radicalized people, you know, who really just, was just like get of our toilets, stuff like that. I'll get that daily when I was on their for like five years. And it was just, was so removed from my actual experience. Right? Like it's like a theoretical debate in my head.
It's like, there is no way I'm going into a men's toilet. Like I just don't, it's not even one of the more complex sides of this for me,. 

Floss: And you don't think that even translates to real life. So that's not even actually something that, you 

Shon Faye: I mean, the thing is, is I, I mean, I'm talking about myself and a person, like, of course they, if they passed a law tomorrow saying it's a crime for me to use a women's toilet, I still would.
Do you know [00:26:00] what I mean? I'm not going to walk into a men's toilet. It's just ludicrous. So for me, that's a classic example. It's so detached from what my day-to-day life experience is and what my concerns are. My friends concerns are... when am I getting my health care? Yeah. Well, how long is the wait list?
If I get probably housing or people treat me while at work, not what toilet am I using?

Floss: So when it comes to all of the issues that you're talking about, these are very real issues that have actually very little to do with whether trans women are valid or have the right pronouns and all of this kind of stuff that you talk about we're discussing on social media. What would you say is the way forward to actually impact trans people's access to healthcare and all of this kind of stuff?

Shon Faye: I think we need to start thinking about working together. In terms of political coalitions. So like an example of this would be instead of the hyper focus on yeah. What makes trans women different and how to like afford a [00:27:00] social courtesy, which like, obviously is good, but yeah. Look only go so far. It's like, for example, what we're seeing across like the world, really with the resurgence of.
Fascists right-wing Christian right in the U S it's like an attack on like basic principles that affect like lots of us, like bodily autonomy, like affects anyone who is a woman full stop for trans women. It affects our ability to access, transition related care. And sexual health and lots of other things. For cisgender women and then for any trans person with a uterus as well, like obviously affects things like access to contraception, abortion. We're seeing that in the U S these things are always attacked. This is why like anti-trans feminism is so frustrating. Do you not realize that any government around the world. That's restricting access to trans healthcare is also restricting access to abortion. They go hand in hand because it's a patriarchal idea that you don't let people do what they want with their own bodies. And that's necessary for their mental wellbeing and to like escape, whatever patriarchal narrative has been like impressed on their body, whether that's like you must be a mother if you get [00:28:00] pregnant or you must be a man, if you're born with like X, Y chromosomes and a penis, these ideas about bodily autonomy. A much richer ideas to think about the kind of coalitions that we would need to build, to improve things for all women and all marginalized genders. And we have seen examples of where they work, right?
It's the referendum in, in Ireland about access to abortion in 2018. You know, that was quite a trans-inclusive campaign. Obviously it focused on women because women are the vast majority of people who can get pregnant. But trans people were kind of transmasculine people in particular were included in it.

Floss: Within the policy?

Shon Faye: Well, yeah, within the campaign trans masculine speakers, this is why in Britain. It's so frustrating when people are all, this is, you know, we can't say woman anymore. We can't say mother anymore. Like, you know, in Ireland they actually managed to have a huge broad campaign because it was a public vote.
Like every member of the population got to vote on women's right to have an abortion, which is, you know, Not really that great, but it's a function of the way that the Irish constitution works, but like getting [00:29:00] to that point where they could have that referendum to years of campaigning at grassroots level.
And they would just, you know, they were very clear like well it's about bodily autonomy. It's the same thing as for trans people, is that what we're saying is state and, you know, men, and the state and patriarchy shouldn't have like this dominion over your body. So I would like to see like, I guess, yeah, more kind of broad coalitions like that.
Cause trans people, trans health care is niche. We're never going to be able to change it without like more people. And obviously the only way you can kind of get people to care about something that doesn't affect them is to kind of like that's how human beings work is to is to form a broader coalitions of politics around things. So. I support your right to choose, even though I don't have a uterus and it's never going to, like that particular thing is never going to affect me because I also have a right to choose by what I do with my body. In this context, 
when you were talking about how that campaign was successful with its inclusive language, how was it so successful?

Floss: And what would you say to people who say, well, we can't see women [00:30:00] anymore and it's kind of like people say they have to tip toe around language and all this kind of stuff. How did this Ireland campaign get it right?

Shon Faye: From the beginning, they acknowledged the existence whilst they acknowledged the abortion is majoritively a women's issue, which is fine to acknowledge.
There are people who are not women who were affected by the eighth amendment to the constitution and therefore were right to be involved in the movement from the beginning. 

Floss: That's great. 

Shon Faye: Yeah. And then even for, you know, even discussing trans women, even though trans women weren't affected by that particular amendment, that obviously there's a connected struggle there because it's about women's autonomy in society and trans women are also find that curbed to by violence, harassment, so that see that language and that inclusivity right from the beginning in something that had to be so broad and include so many women in order to be effective because it required you know, a majority of the population to vote, um, to repeal that law.
To me, it's great because it really disproves this myth that if you start being inclusive [00:31:00] towards trans people, somehow the language we have to talk about women's oppression or women's experiences is going to disappear and women can't get anything done. I've heard the anti-trans feminist in the UK say that they're like, if we can't, you know, if we, if we can't even define what a woman is, then and how can we campaign on women's rights? And it's like, well, having a sort of fluid definition of woman and also understanding that not things that we think of as women's experiences will affect some people that aren't women doesn't actually mean you can't get stuff done. 

Floss: And it doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage at all.

Shon Faye: No. 

Floss: Would you say then that the way to be trans inclusive is to acknowledge the difference in our experiences and still still celebrate the fact that. Trans women need to be included in all of these spaces. 

Shon Faye: Uh, yeah, I think so. It's kind of one of these myths that does the rounds is that like sometimes people who are really new to the conversation will say something like, yeah, I mean, like I support trans women, but they are different.
And it's like, yeah, of course being assigned a different gender and then having to go through the process of like, finding out about yourself where you realize that, [00:32:00] oh, there's something really off here, obviously that's a really different experience. It's not about like, we have to be exactly the same. I also like cis-gender women are not all the same.
I mean, like, to be like, to be a woman in Saudi Arabia is not the same as being in London, you know? And this is why I think black feminists have always been like, Actually this kind of construction of white womanhood 

Floss: Does not resonate.

Shon Faye: Yeah. It's always excluded black women. 

Floss: Yeah. You just made the most basic point, but actually, which is just so important, no woman has the same fucking experience.

Shon Faye: Yeah. Yeah. And then the trouble is, is I'm interested in about like, when we're talking about the services is why is, and that's, what's lost a lot with trans women sometimes about what the idea of the trans woman in the women's refuge. It's what's lost is why is she there? What the kind of transphobic conversation will focus on a lot is like the potential anxieties that some women cis-gender women might experience, which is fine.
Like, I can understand maybe why someone would particularly in cases of acute [00:33:00] trauma or whatever, but like, actually we should be looking to see how those services kind of help to resolve that by having enough resources to kind of manage those really rare things when they exist, rather than this blanket idea exclusion of trans women. And what's lost is why is the trans woman there? And it's usually because she's experienced in this context, the same thing that like the cisgender women in that for. 

Floss: Well, you said in your book that the media focuses on how trans people pose a threat to, uh, cis-gender women.
But actually your, your book is trying to reflect on the issues affecting trans people, as opposed to. How trans people are supposedly effecting the public? Yeah. Just flipping that switch, like you said, about the trans women who come to these refugee centers or women's crisis, whatever. And it's, it's almost like people want to talk more about the impact that the trans woman is having on the room, the cisgender women in the room, as opposed to why she might be there and what help does she need? 

Shon Faye: Exactly. I mean like trans women don't often get access sometimes to the same [00:34:00] levels of empathy, especially in the media for some of our experiences, not just of transphobia, but of misogyny because we experienced misogyny too. I mean, even the fact that like, yeah, abusive boyfriends of trans women, for example, there are real patterns of abuse like the fact that like your family are less likely to be talking to you, the fact that you're like more precarious in your employment, the fact that you feel like you're lucky to have anyone at all, because you're a trans woman and therefore, like, you know, something that I think I felt before in relationships is when, uh, when I've been dating someone it's not necessarily going well, there's that like panic over who or who else will have me.
I'm a trans woman. You know, these things go really, really deep. We're in a culture where we're told that we're disgusting and unlovable and all that stuff. And we do all grow up with that. You know, that can create the conditions where someone can exploit that in an abusive way. We get treated like sometimes like scary creepy men and like a subclass of women at the same time. Um, and that, and that can be really, really difficult to navigate. And the other thing I just wanted to say, I think we've talked a lot about trans women, but as we're talking about services too, one thing I really wanted to do in the [00:35:00] book, and I hope I've done is also talking about trans men in this context, because most of the evidence shows that trans men are also highly likely to experience a lot of the and non binary people, of course, a lot of these issues, particularly domestic sexual violence, gender based violence, and trans men have a different kind of struggle where their if they try and, you know, sometimes they can, there can be a fair about talking about that because the experience is a very connected to misogyny.
But it's almost like if they start talking about it publicly that their people will basically try and use it as a kind of way to say that they're not men. 

Floss: Wow. 

Shon Faye: A lot of the anti-trans arguments are so focused on trans women that they don't even take into consideration the existence of trans men. 

Floss: Yeah. You've, you've spoke a lot just over there and which is amazing, the stuff you said about, um, domestic abuse as well and how it affects trans women differently to cis women. Um, You spoke a lot about also the binary. And could you talk about what the binary is? Yeah, the gender binary? 

Shon Faye: Yeah so the gender binary works [00:36:00] by basically saying that like, there are two categories that exist, male and female, and that they're rooted in our biology and then they're mutually exclusive and you can never move from one to the other.
That's why the first principle of the gender binary. The second is that anyone born into like the male class or the female class should be masculine- the male class should be masculine and the female class should be feminine. That includes like sleeping with only the opposite gender, right. About heterosexuality. And then three is like male and masculine, are better than female and feminine. Um, and that's kind of the core of what the gender binary is. And, um, and obviously, yeah, it shapes everything about, uh, the whole gamut of human discourse. Really? How can most of humanity. Well, all of humanity fit in two preordained boxes and it's just like, it's just, it's actually quite like a deranged idea.

Floss: It's impossible.

Shon Faye: And yet it persists that it shapes the way that we talk about people that shapes our language and everything like that. Um, and it hasn't always [00:37:00] existed. It doesn't exist in every culture. It hasn't existed in every point of human history. There have been cases, you know, times and places and cultures where.
There has been some kind of understanding that people may cross the binary, or people may exist outside it, or that there isn't just two genders, for example. Um, and yeah, what I kind of like look at in the book is that there have been in every recorded human culture, people who have lived like cross-gender lives that have like existed outside of whatever uh, part of the binary that they were born into. And the thing is because there's three things are linked you can't really, I don't believe you can undo the hierarchy where it's like it's better to be a male and a man and masculine, then it is to be female, a woman feminine. You can't really undo that hierarchy without starting to challenge the idea that these things are like always separate. Can't be crossed, worn, and torn. You can't do the other. And I think it's a little bit while. Trans women, um, get some, the brunt of like the most, uh, [00:38:00] visceral transphobia, particularly from like right-wing men is because, uh, if you believe that being like male masculine is better than being female and feminine, like trans women, a kind of a real affront to that, because we we were technically born into the category of like male.
We are kind of a threat to that hierarchy because we've said like being a man is not better for me. It's not really a choice, but it's perceived as we've chosen to be women in a society where we're supposed to uphold masculinity.

Floss: Okay. So some of the questions from my listeners, uh, here's the first one. How should I be there for a friend who's transitioning? 
I think the easiest thing to start off with is to ask your friend, like, what do you need from me? Um, and not to try and second, guess it. Transitioning is a terrifying thing. When you're moving through public space, when you feel gauche and awkward. I don't know if the friend in this case would be maybe experiencing harassment, but it's highly likely that they might have done, even if it's only like a handful of times, but that can be enough to terrify you for like years afterwards is about [00:39:00] literally physically being there with them, you know, like in a social situation, I did really appreciate when I transitioned the friends who were there for me. I mean, not even yet to the point of like being there with me and like the restroom or whatever. Those acts of like support. Yeah. Like a lot of trans women have really positive experiences of like cisgender female friends who um, we're very welcoming and helpful to us early in transition, where we were very nervous in that kind of zone. Um, and those experiences do mean a lot, I think, early on, but it is, yeah. It's about asking and saying, what is it you need from me? As a friend, or is there anything I can do to make this like less anxious for you?
That's definitely it. 
Yeah. Okay, great. Uh, another question are expressions like pussy power transphobic. 

Shon Faye: That's an interesting one, right? Like there's a bit of a debate on this. I don't mind it because I see that as guy, like, it's kind of this idea got this archetype of the feminine and female power and stuff like that.
And like, we [00:40:00] live in a phallocentric culture where like penises mean power and male and stuff like that. Uh, and pussy power is this kind of like feminine archetype, I can't speak for trans women, but I really wouldn't care about that. I would see that provided, I knew that it wasn't like being used intentionally to be like, this is a space where people who are born with vaginas only, but if it's just like, this is like what we're using to kind of celebrate like the feminine and female power and you know, and we're using that imagery, but we're trans inclusive then sure.
Yeah. I mean, a lot of trans women do, like, regardless of whether they've had surgery, they would call their genitals pussy anyway, so that- 

Floss: Yes, yes. Yeah. That's what I thought. Yeah. Like you said, it's metaphorical and it can mean anything. Yeah. Okay. This is an interesting one. Is it okay not to be attracted to trans women?
Is it the same as a sexual preference or is this just transphobia? 

Shon Faye: Yeah, this is an interesting one. Uh, you can't force yourself to be attracted to anyone let's be realistic. You're also allowed to have sexual boundaries for any [00:41:00] reason, personally, it depends. Cause it's like, what's that about? Like, because trans women look and sound and present in lots of different ways.
Some have vaginas, some don't, you know, like there, there is a sort of spectrum there. So you are kind of like collapsing, quite a diverse spectrum of womanhood into like- oh, this one thing about that transness... to me, it's not the ultimate expression of transphobia because there are plenty of people who do date and have sex with trans people who are transphobic.

Floss: Of course, 

Shon Faye: You're entitled to say on a one-to-one basis. I'd rather, I'd rather not date you to a person or, you know, no thanks. But like, if you're going around kind of listing one very diverse group and basically being like, oh, I I'm just not attracted to this entire group. And you feel the need to kind of say that.
I mean, one is just like socially rude. Two it's kind of just a bit derogatory about that group, but regardless of who they are also like, especially on like dating profiles and stuff like that, it can often be in a position of like power dynamic. Isn't it is men who are like, oh, I don't want-

Floss: No fems!

Shon Faye: Yeah, no, yeah, no, no fat women or like, 

Floss: But [00:42:00] also I felt like a lot of people who maybe say I would never date a trans person have never met a trans person because it's this, it's this caricature idea that they have in their heads, from what they've consumed through the media or the horrible stereotypes. 

Shon Faye: Yeah. Yeah. It's a thorny issue. That one. Isn't it. I just think blanket statements on either side. Aren't good. It's not like I wouldn't make blanket statement.
It's transphobic to not want to date trans people. I think there's a lot going on there. And I don't think any of us can pretend our sexual desires aren't formulated by the culture we live in and the messages about people. Yeah. And of course, it's great to interrogate that sometimes reality is you don't sit in your room right now.
I'm going to interrogate sexual desire. I mean, that's not how sexuality works, you know, it tends to be, you know, what's like fun about sexuality is it can like be surprising and impulsive and you can suddenly meet someone that can completely change your views. 

Floss: Another question. And what would you say to someone who uses female safety as a reason to not support trans issues?

Shon Faye: Yeah. Well, I mean, [00:43:00] what if I say, well, the first thing I'd say to them, it's like, look at who female safety is threatened by and it tends to be turned by cis-gender men, not trans people. The second thing is, is that trans people have basically existed as I say throughout people we call it trans throughout human history, but like trends people have been, um, moving through public space, using facilities, using services in line with the agenda for like the best part of a century now.
Uh, and there isn't really like. That hasn't really been an observable increase in risk from trans people towards cisgender women's safety. Also like the vast majority of like female safety, the most dangerous person to you as a woman, is a man that you already know, women's like safety is most compromised by men known to us men, immediate, intimate social spheres.

Floss: It's not strangers. 

Shon Faye: Yeah. It's horrible to think about, but the most, one of the most dangerous things you can do as a woman is. Yeah, participate in heterosexuality.[00:44:00] 

Floss: This is an excellent point. Well, love that we're ending on the note of the most dangerous thing a woman can do is date a man. It's not the men lurking in the alleyways. That's like on a percentage scale of sexual violence and all of this horrific stuff that happens to women, gender-based violence. Is by then we already know that sometimes we go to bed with them. Yeah. 

Shon Faye: Well, that's what I mean. Where did he just goes back to the radical feminist thing? Some of the radical feminist ideas were actually right though. Like their idea that the most dangerous thing for women were heterosexuality, the nuclear family, you know, all these things.
That. I mean, that's T. As they say, it's kind of true. Like, obviously there's also got one of the biggest sites of danger because it's like treated by patriarchy is like the normal, non deviant safe thing to do. Yeah. We tend to focus on, on these kinds of hypothetical -

Floss: Scape goats!

Shon Faye: Yeah. Or the rare cases of stranger danger, et cetera, gender isn't just about like clothes and makeup. And like, it's about power. 

Floss: Yeah. Well amazing. Thank you so much. I've enjoyed this conversation so 
much. 

Shon Faye: Thank you for having me. [00:45:00] 

Wow. That was such an enlightening conversation that I just had with Shon um, a lot of the topics that we touched on today involving, you know, what to say to your parents, or what to say to a feminist friend who maybe doesn't support trans people, is confused about all of the stuff that we discussed. Uh, Shon answers this, not only in the podcast that we just did together, but in her book incredibly fluently. After my conversation with Shon today, I think I'm going to have a look into, uh, trans health care and watch some of the documentaries that she recommended.
I think she recommended one by Charlie Craggs which has been heavily recommended to me also by my peers and my friends. Um, I'm going to check that out for sure. There's a lot of things that I'm going to be left thinking about when it comes to my conversations as well. When I am talking about desirability politics. And when 

I am talking about self-esteem, I am going to keep this perspective in mind when I have these conversations on social media, in the future.
 And a massive thank you to the fucking incredible Black Honey who compose the original theme [00:46:00] music for my podcast. You can find them on Instagram at black honey UK, and check out their latest album called Written and Directed. To keep yourself updated with all the latest episodes as they drop.
You can follow Exactly. On apple. Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcast. And please take the time to rate us wherever you listen to your podcasts, give us a review. It really does help people to find us and make sure that the people who need to hear these conversations do this, the podcast from something.

My producer is Milly Chowles. My assistant producer is Ella McLeod. Executive producer is Carly Maile, production coordinator is Lily Hambly. And I want to give a special thanks to our engineers, Jay Beale, Josh Gibbs, and mixing Gulli Lawrence- Tickell and additional production from Chris Skinner and Teddy Riley.[00:47:00]