EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 8: FEMINISM: Periods, Patriarchy and Putting Back The Movement with Amika George

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello. Thank you so much for listening to Exactly with me Florence Given! For the last three episodes, I've been talking to my guests, Jameela Jamil, Shon Faye, and Deborah Francis White, all about feminism. They've all had such incredible, inspiring, and at times hilarious perspectives on the topic and I've left them all, feeling fired up, pissed off, confident, all of the feelings that you have when you talk about feminism and how shit the world is.
But also, it's kind of inspired me to leave the episode and take action, which is what I want to make people feel every single time that they listen to the show. I'm incredibly hopeful for the future. And my mind has just been truly expanded by what my guests have had to say. I've loved talking about feminism with them all.
And in this episode, I can't wait to talk about it even more with you. Today I have another incredible, exciting feminist guest joining me to help me answer your questions. The founder of the Free Periods movement, Amika George.[00:01:00] 
So this is the fourth and final episode in this mini series on feminism. And as is now the tradition on the fourth episode, I hand over the mic to you to ask the questions and alongside my guests, we'll answer as many of them as we can. Amika George, my guest today, is the founder of the free periods movement, a campaign she started when she was just 17 from her bedroom, which resulted in her persuading the UK government to provide free menstrual products in all English schools and colleges from January 2020.
She's a fucking legend on is basically dripping in awards. Here's just a few she's won recently: spotlight if the year at Vogue 2021, a goalkeeper's campaign awards by Bill and Melinda gates, and she was listed by time magazine as one of the 25 most influential teenagers in the world. What a fucking lineup she is so cool.
I think she's cracking. I'm so glad to have her as a guest on the show today, and [00:02:00] she's just published her first book, Make It Happen: How To Be An Activist. It was published last year and she's a really lovely person, so couldn't be in better company to answer these questions today. 
So Amika before we get stuck in today, I'm going to ask you my five quick fire questions.
I ask all of my guests, these just say the first thing that comes to your mind. 
Amika: Okay. Cool. 
Floss: Okay. Sick. So the first question, what's one thing that sets your soul on fire?
Amika: Sriracha, chilli sauce. 
Floss: Perfect answer. Next question. If you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life and look that would define you forever, what would you wear?
Voice Note: Um, probably. My instinct is to say trackies, even though I don't know if that's how I want to be defined, that's probably how I wanna feel. 
Amika: I do want to feel it like I'm wearing trackies every day, so I'd probably just would. 
Floss: Okay, nice. Third question. What's something that people frequently misunderstand or get wrong about you? 
Amika: That all I talk about is periods.
Floss: Okay.[00:03:00] 
Amika: Vaguely true, but not entirely. 
Floss: Next question. I'm still a work in progress when it comes to 
Amika: working out what I want my life to look like, what I want to do. Everything to do with the future. I'd say? 
Floss: Can I just say though, you have a very exciting future ahead of you.. 
Amika: Thank you. 
Floss: Next question. When was the last time you majorly cringed at yourself?
Amika: Every time I hear my voice on a podcast!
Floss: Every single time I hear the engineer's edit it, when I walk into the room afterwards. 
Amika: Oh my God. 
Floss: And they start playing out loud to me, I'm like immediately stop. 
Amika: I know. I literally, I can't, I can't deal with it. 
Floss: So Amika before we get into the questions that we've been sent in by my audience.
I just want to ask you something. Why is it that people think that you won't stop talking about periods?. 
Amika: I suppose I did spend a long time talking about periods, especially when I first started talking about feminism. It was because I started a campaign called Free Periods, which was trying to ask the government to end period poverty in [00:04:00] education by providing free menstrual products in all schools and colleges.
Um, so I guess, because the government didn't listen for a very long time and no one was replying to my emails, I was doing. 
As many interviews, um, as I could, where I did talk about periods a lot. So I don't blame the people who think that all I know or think about his periods, because that is what I did talk about for a while. But I feel like since we were successful in kind of in convincing the government to change their policy back in 2019, I've kind of realized how periods sit in the much broader struggle for feminism. 
And there were people who were unable to go to school because periods weren't seen as a basic human, right that shows just how much, you know, women's bodies have been sidelined and periods as an issue were completely ignored and dismissed from any sort of political conversation. 
That was 
Floss: my very discreet way of getting you to talk about how incredible you are. [00:05:00] And I just think it's absolutely phenomenal what you've been able to do.
Amika: Thank you. Thanks. I really appreciate that. 
Floss: And today we're here to talk all about feminism. I've been recording these episodes over the past few months, all about feminism. And today we're doing the call-in episode where people have sent in the questions. And the first question we've got in here is from Adrianne and she said, Are you able to explain the patriarchy in an easy way, who is involved in the patriarchy and how did it begin?
I'm not sure that I can fully grasp what it means yet. I'm new to feminism and I'm still very much learning. 
Amika: I mean, I think a word like patriarchy sounds quite heavy, but as soon as you learn the meaning... in my eyes, it just means any sorts of social organization or like a structure where men are privileged over anything else.
So any society where men are dominant or more powerful or kind of treated as superior to everyone else. [00:06:00] So it's quite simple. And I feel like issues like misogyny, you know, rape culture, you know, the gender pay gap, these are all facets of the patriarchy. 
Floss: Absolutely- the way I like to describe it, I use this quote in my book and there was no source for it. It's one of those internet silly internet quotes. We know where it's from and it was a man in a room full of women is ecstatic and a woman in a room full of men is generally fucking terrified. And I like to use that expression because a lot of people will say, well, I work in a company where it's all women fantastic news for you, but that is an anomaly within a dominant culture where that rarely happens.
And so you actually require systemic historical backing, for oppression to even exist. A man in a room full of women is extremely comfortable because he knows that there's no threat on his safety. Women do not commit 96% of all violent crime. So of course, you're going to feel safer in a room full of women.
And I [00:07:00] think that really highlights it. 
Amika: Completely agree. Even just the idea of men, all the default, and that's just the way we are socialized. Something I think that people miss out in conversations around what patriarchy is, is the insinuation that actually it's about men. It's something inherent within them that teaches them to be, or makes them act more powerful or superior or dominant. Actually, it's not about the men it's about society and it's about the way that society is structured and how we've all been socialized. You know, regardless of gender, we've been brought up with the idea that a society is socially organized in a hierarchical way with men at the top and men are the default.
I mean, you know, the iPhone is designed to fit a man's hand or air bags in cars are like designed to fit the size of a man's body. And it's only when you reduce it down to those like bare statistics that show you that actually, when a child probably pictures, a person and their head, it's a man when scientists design solutions to problems or [00:08:00] conduct investigations they look to men before women. And that's literally all patriarchy is.
Floss: There's there's always this like yeah default that we hand over decision-making to men. It's only been about 15 years since women have actually been able to vocalize their opinions. And been able to speak our truth and finally be heard and allowed to think we're only allowed to have credit cards from like the late seventies.
So we weren't allowed to start up companies and, uh, make our own income and decide that maybe we don't want to have children that was seen as our role in life. So a patriarchal society is one that thrives on those structures existing. And I like what you said also about how it's not men by default, that's not who they are. The society that we live in, um, and people make culture. And I think that what's really important about stuff that people like yourself doing is you're saying I'm empowered enough to know that there are systems out there. They're going to try and fuck up my life and make sure that I don't receive adequate [00:09:00] care, like period products that, that, that my bodily functions are going to be sidelined and not even included and discussed about because it's so taboo and I'm still gonna fucking do something about it because I am a person and I can change this narrative.
Yes. It's not men's fault that they were bought into their bodies that inhabit this privilege, that existed before them. And they do have the power to change it. You know, like you do, like you are, like we are. 
Amika: I was going to say the same thing, even though, um, it's kind of, it's not their fault and they didn't create, I mean, they, someone created this system- , 
Floss: Some dickhead!
Amika: Someone out there ruined it for all of us, but, um, because it was created to privilege men, it actually has to, the breakdown of the system has to involve men.
And that's why I feel like I sometimes find the kind of position of feminism and conversations around feminism so upsetting because that always, they always seem to indicate a divide, whether that's a generational divide or a gender divide and, or kind of like a [00:10:00] global divide between people of different classes or countries.
And I think the problem with having a gender division of feminism means that we forget the actually the most powerful way of breaking down the system is collaborative. I think there's no way that we can actually break down the structure of patriarchy if it's just women talking about feminism. And so often the view of feminism broadly is about women trying to kind of, kind of swap positions or become, become dominant instead of men when that's not at all, what we're asking for, actually the, you know, feminist utopia is just better for everyone, you know, it's regardless of gender, it's just about taking a way that structure, that privileges just men and making it equal.
That's all it is. And it really is that simple. And I think if more men. Understood just how simplistic that idea is and kind of how, um, tangible and achievable it can feel more men would want to call themselves feminists and want to get on [00:11:00] board with the idea and it would be more collaborative and less divisive.
Floss: Right? Let's go to a voice note next, this one's from Amy in the UK. 
Voice note 2: Hi, I want to quickly start off by saying that Women Don't Owe You Pretty is my Bible and I absolutely worship you both. Um, my question is how do I feel valid in my feminism as a woman who constantly finds herself, molding her appearance to please the male gaze.
Even though I identify as queer is a constant conflict, I find myself in, but I'm terrified to break the mould. Again, I love you two.
Amika: Oh god I loved that!
Floss: Wow that was so nice. Thank you so much, Amy, for the wonderful words, of course you can tell yourself a bloody feminist, we all suffer from the patriarchy, from this program.
Built in need to be seen and validated by men constantly. Male validation is like a drug being desired by men is like a drug. Not only because it [00:12:00] feels lovely and tingling inside, as you feel like you're suddenly worth something because it's all been taught from a very young age. To look pretty and to make ourselves look constantly nice while we're doing the things, you know, I'm recording a podcast, but I still made sure that I did my makeup to record an audio.
Amika: So did I! 
Floss: You're not alone in that. I just want to say that. And also. You said you're a queer woman. So, uh, maybe you're bi, maybe you're still attracted to men. So of course you're going to still want them to fancy you. And second of all, I've got friends who are lesbians, who still festival fancy man, and still love attention from men.
What becomes problematic to your self esteem I'd say is when you start to rely on it. So, yeah, but when it, when it is a drug, no longer something that just maybe makes you feel good every now and then. And I compare my validation to a drug because I literally had to go cold Turkey on it. I had to turn men off on dating apps. I had to stop seeking their looks on the street. I had to do all of this stuff and it was like weaning myself off of this thing. [00:13:00] Again, I identify as bisexual and I'm still attracted to men. It's, it's a lot clearer in my mind, what I want from men now. 
Amika: I completely agree. And I also think. We have to talk more about the fact that no one there's no such thing as a perfect feminist, everyone's always feeling guilty. And that is also in my opinion, the patriarchy at work, because even with something like feminism, which has us trying to reclaim power and control, we still think we're not good enough, we still think we're not doing it right. And that is like, that is terrible because actually. We're trying, everyone's trying.
And you know, even the fact that you've sent in a question for me and Florence to answer. Like that's showing that you care enough to be part of this, of this battle. So I think that, I mean, it's, I'm so guilty of it so I can't really preach about it or tell you not to, but being self-critical or you know, looking for holes and what you're doing is, is just going to slow you down. It's just going to make you feel like you're not a good enough feminist when actually [00:14:00] there is no such thing as the ideal feminist. And also you can't blame yourself for wanting to seek out male attention, because that is what we've all been taught that we that's all we're worth that's, that's what we've been told.
So it's actually, like you said, going cold Turkey, like it's actually a really like, decisive acts that you have to take to step outside of it. And I still, like, I completely agree. I still feel like I'm not on the other side. I still feel like I'm, you know, you have good days and you have bad days. You have days where you kind of succumb to it, even though you feel like technically as a feminist, maybe that's not what you should be seeking out.
That is just what we've been programmed to think. Like, I just don't think you can blame yourself. 
Floss: Of course not. I would also recommend Amy reading The Beauty Myth, it completely flipped my head on its arse. I don't even know if that's the right expression, but that's exactly how it felt! I don't know. It just did something to me.
It changed my frickin life. Um, the beauty myth taught me all the [00:15:00] very insidious ways that we are programmed. And I just think it's learning about how you are influenced without knowing it that helps you become immune to being influenced by bad messaging. And please do not beat yourself up about shit "I need to have the answers!".
Amika and I don't have the fucking answers. We're still fumbling around in the dark, trying to learn what not to do and what what's the right thing to say and fucking up all the time and still being controlled by all of this stuff. And also we're empowered enough to know that we don't have to be a victim to this stuff and that we can change our minds about things.
Amika: Yeah, exactly.
Floss: Okay. So now we have Ava on the line and she's from San Diego.
Hi Ava, how are you? 
Call in 1, Ava: Good, How are you?
Floss: I'm amazing! 
Call in 1, Ava: Thank you for having me. 
Floss: Of course. What would you like to ask us? 
Call in 1, Ava: I want to know how I can [00:16:00] educate people, especially men on feminism without coming off as a raging feminist that turns people away. I want to know how I can be effective. 
Amika: Good question. Okay. So I think. For men, particularly, I think the word itself feminism sounds terrifying. And it sounds like that really ridiculous stereotype of loads of women with hairy legs, like try to trample the men. 
Floss: Me!
Amika: I mean, there's nothing wrong with that obviously! But um, I think that puts off so many men from feeling like they have a place in the conversation. So what I would do is propose the, the central kind of tenets of feminism, what it really means and what it's all about.
Ask the man, if they agree with that, don't use the word feminism. But when, if they're a decent human being, in my opinion, they say that they agree with those things, e.g. Equality of the sexes. Then you say, okay, you're a feminist and that's literally it. I also think there's so much [00:17:00] nuance within the conversation, there's there there's difference and disagreement within feminism. And that's the thing I feel like we have to hold on to that. Like there's no universal idea of what feminism is. And I think recognizing that and realising that it's actually quite a complicated topic that can be boiled down to something really simple, really dispels it in my experience using an example.
So I started this campaign called Free Periods and I was talking, I talked about periods a lot, and that was my kind of pathway to talking about feminism. And so often I said to boys and men who got really like red and cringed out by the fact that I was even mentioning the word periods to them. I would say like, why are you embarrassed? Why don't you want to talk about, talk about this? Because it is just a biological process that you know, that half the world experiences. So why do you think it's embarrassing or cringy or disgusting? And again, that's the patriarchy at work and that is the need for feminism. So I feel like if you use an example and if you say. [00:18:00] It's it's actually the patriarchy that's taught you to be embarrassed about periods and made you cringe. When I, as soon as I talked about like period pain or tampons, that kind of makes it real because so often the theoretical, you know, structural side of a conversation with all the complicated vocabulary can really put people off.
But when you talk about it in an everyday sense, it becomes yours. 
Floss: Periods is such a good example Amika because, I feel like a good tangent off of that, is that the reason Minnesota repulsed by people who have periods having them is because it's not desirable. And our bodies are like taught to be seen as desirable, not functional.
So when the literal cycle that creates life is like brought into the function of our bodies and not because we're going to give them a wank with our tits, or they're not penetrating us all of a sudden it's this like vulgar thing. It's, it's a natural giving thing that should not be cringed at. it should be [00:19:00] celebrated because it is the cycle of life.
Amika: Every single person is here because of a period. I don't think we say that or talk about that enough so men should be grateful for periods cause they wouldn't literally wouldn't be alive without them. 
So Ava, do you have any examples of when you've tried to confront men with their actions or your opinions on feminism?
Call in 1, Ava: Yeah, a lot of the time it kind of just leaves me speechless at some points, but like I'll be with, um, my guy friends and. Uh, pretty lady walks by and they're like objectifying her. And I don't know how to, you know, say something like she's a person and I mean, it's, you can acknowledge someone's beauty. Yes. Or we all do that, but, um, I guess the objectifying, and then also what you guys were saying about like, including men in the conversation. I feel like sometimes that's hard because they feel like the villain in feminism, because they kind of are, but how do we make them feel like- [laughs, inaudible]
Amika: yeah. I mean, I think it's exactly what floss was saying like you have to give them something and you have to give them a [00:20:00] connection. And I think often we jump to those extreme examples about. Um, sexual violence or domestic abuse or violent crime. And then the problem with that is that so many men who haven't done those things and feel like they would never think, okay, then I'm not part of the problem, but actually when you boil it down to the little things, like just objectifying -"just"- like objectifying a woman or, you know, um, street, public street harassment, or all of these things that feel more every day. Well, just even participating in the culture or toxic masculinity, all these things that affect all people in all ways. Um, that helps to find that connection because ultimately you need that connection to be part of something and feel like you can do something about it. You have to recognize the problem in yourself. 
I think that's so important. Um, is there anything else you wants to ask us on this topic? 
Call in 1: Um, I think that's it. Thank you so much for your help. 
Floss: Oh, of course. Thanks for calling in.[00:21:00] 
Amika: Thank you!
Floss: Okay. Oh, that was lovely. Okay.
Amika: Yeah, so nice to have her! 
Floss: Onto the next question. This is one from Ella. Okay. Dojo Cat came on TV, shaking her arse, brackets, which was insane. And my dad was like, this is undoing all these years of feminism. My explanation of why it's not, wasn't the best, but I know yours will be. Thank you. Thank you. Kiss emoji, lipstick, emoji telephone emoji. 
Amika: I didn't think you'd actually read those out. Okay. I think this is such an interesting question. And I think also something I really battled with myself. I have a, I have a theory behind it, but I have to caveat that it's completely made up. And so very much my opinion. We talk about like different waves of feminism. Like first, second, third, I personally don't agree with them. I don't think that always the most productive way of talking about feminism. But what I do see is I think the idea of [00:22:00] feminism is always evolving and changing. So if you asked like my parents, for example, what is feminism? What is, what is it all about? So often, you know, 1917 suffragettes that comes into your mind and like green, purple and white, that's the kind of like archetypal feminist. Right. 
And I think obviously that's still true and obviously, or feminists are so glad that we have a vote. Um, so thank you to the suffragettes, but I did, but like I say that, but I do think feminism is changing so quickly right now. And I think more recently we're having conversations, more nuanced conversations about sexuality, about sex work about um, pornography about trans inclusivity and gender. And I hate to reduce it to generational difference because sometimes I felt like that's really reductive, but I do think that our generation is constantly pushing forward this conversation to make feminism as inclusive and nuanced as possible. [00:23:00] And so often people of older generations, that's where they trip up and that's where feminism splinters. And obviously that's incredibly unproductive and not great for the movement because it means that we have so much in fighting within the feminist movement and we have so much difference and disagreement.
This conversation really reminded me of my, a lot of my experiences with those older generations say, making comments like that. And I wouldn't want to say that your dad isn't a feminist because I think even his recognition of, and making that comment is kind of a great thing that he's like aware. But what I would have said probably is the fact that we're now at a stage of feminism, the conversation is such that if you can be Doja Cat, and be as incredible as Doja Cat is, and you can see what her dancing and her performance as completely divorced from any sense of patriarchal pressure to, you know, impress men, to look sexy for men. If you recognize that it's about her own sexuality and her [00:24:00] own self that's when it is actually an act of feminism, I think it's so representative of where we are in conversations around feminism right now. 
Floss: Yes to explain all of the ways in which a woman's shaking her ass on television is empowering you'd need to, you'd need to have like a whole conversation about bodily autonomy. You need to have a whole conversation about, uh, women reclaiming this stuff. You need to have a whole conversation about how first of all, black women's bodies have been fetishized, so to see a woman of color on TV doing this kind of stuff and doing it for herself and doing it in a way that is she's looked so fucking incredible. She makes feel incredible. And also that's the point that she makes women feel good about themselves. And I think Megan, the stallion, her music video to Thot Shit was a response to this kind of thing. It was an old guy and she ended up like sewing up a pussy as his lips. It's like, Megan, the stallion, Doja Cat. They all know what the fuck they're doing. They are so in control, they look like they're in control when they're [00:25:00] shaking their ass and TV. But women have also just been entirely stripped off their sexual autonomy. Uh, sex education rarely involves discussions of actual pleasure. It's just how not to get pregnant. So when we see women being sexual onstage, when we see women talking about how much they love fucking in their rap music, it's, it is empowering. It is! Because we've been taught not that this stuff doesn't belong in our music in our lives that we can't do that kind of stuff. Your dad's saying that this is undoing all the years of feminism. You could explain to him- 
Amika: Like this is feminism today. I think he probably sees them undoing feminism as he sees it, which is, which looks and feels a certain way and is about certain issues. But actually today feminism is so much more all encompassing and also nuanced. And I personally, I don't think they are doing it purely for the male gaze and purely for, you know, for men to drool over them, even though they probably are, they're doing it for [00:26:00] themselves. Right. Um, and that is what feminism is. 
Floss: It's just a biproduct!
Amika: Yeah exactly, it's unimportant. 
Floss: And again, what, what a male centric thing to assume that it's entirely for them.
Okay onto the next question here. We have a question from Gareth. Here we go. As a guy, I always wonder and have the panic about whether I'm doing the right thing and supporting women and feminism. What advice would you give to guys who want to support the cause? Because at the end of the day, we're all fucking humans. Why should, why should society on our genitals dictate our purpose in life? And I totally agree with you Gareth and still, we need to. Those things very much do exist. It's a bit like when white people, when we say I'm color blind, I don't give a fuck about what race you are. It's much as you may have that kind of belief. We also need to acknowledge that the structures do exist and that while I'm with you, Gareth, I am with you on the opinion that we're all fucking humans, [00:27:00] mate, and just society should not be judging us by our genitals, but they very much. I do still. And I think that's what you're asking here is how do I support women through all of this?
And I would say the first thing I would say that just always comes to my mind is questions are not offensive. Okay. I love questions. I love when men ask me questions. Um, but also I wouldn't entirely rely on people explaining things that may or may not be quite triggering or just not nice to talk about too.
So you can always Google some stuff. There are some excellent resources: everyday feminism.com helped me a lot, when I first started learning about anti-racism when I was around 17 years old. Um, started Googling some stuff on that. It taught me all of this shit that I've been doing for years microaggressions towards people of color, that I was just like disgusted to believe I was doing. Uh, and that required literally no one having to step in and correct me because I was doing this research myself. And so I think those kinds of things are great when it comes to supporting women and feminism [00:28:00] and also just uh... pulling your bros bros aside. 
Amika: Yeah. I was going to say, talk to men, talk like talk to the men.
And I would say call yourself a feminist. It sounds like Gareth is a feminist just from texting in, but, um, use that word because that word has a lot of power. And if you tell you know, a man who's not a feminist that you are one it's so sickening to think it's true, but he'll be more interested in the fact that you are one than a woman.
Floss: Change the standard
Amika: Exactly. Um, and, and call him out and say, why aren't you a feminist, don't you believe in this and this and this and talk, you know, just talk about, you know, like, I think it's really true what you said, Floss, like call yourself out for past mistakes and say, and talk about your learning process to talk about the fact that no one really knows what they're doing, we're all still learning and figuring out how we're going to get there. So talk about the process as well. 
Floss: Yeah, I think that's so important. Gaz does sound like a feminist and I'm so excited to have Gareth on the podcast asking this [00:29:00] question. I got a lot of book reviews from men, for my book, Women Don't Owe You Pretty and they were probably the most fulfilling and the most shocking reviews I've ever received in my life because I didn't think that men would pick up my book. Even though the title Women Don't Owe You Pretty is very much aimed at men. The, you being men, Women Don't Owe You Pretty and I think that the book actually benefits men and will change the way men think more than it will change the way women think, because a lot of women already know the stuff in my book, but perhaps they haven't been given the language to speak their feelings.
Uh, but with men they will like getting an insight into what it's like to be a woman. And I had men messaging me saying I've been crying for days. I cannot believe the wild has just turned itself upside down. And so I would like to say to my male audience, thanks for being here. And, um, I really appreciate you trying and showing up to learn and like taking a back seat to listen.
Amika: Thank you, Gareth.[00:30:00] 
Floss: Okay. We have a voice note here from Yarra who uses they, them pronouns. Do you think feminism, how it is right now is only made for white women and has taken away any space for people of color?
Amika: Thank you, Yara. I think a really important question. I want to say a couple of things. I think firstly, I think we've come a long way in that this feels like a conversation that more people are having about white feminism about, the intricacies of the relationship between race and gender and how in a lot of ways, conversations around feminism like they just have to include race because the experience is obviously so different. The other thing I would say is that I think it can be quite intimidating and simplistic to talk about feminism as one thing, it's not like, you know, there's this absolute feminist utopia and we're just slowly crawling towards it. I think it's far more complicated than that. And we're, and everyone's at different stages and all societies are at different [00:31:00] stages. And as individuals, we're at different stages too, I don't want to homogenize the movement and say, You know, we're now acknowledging white feminism, and we're talking more about misogynoir, which is black women facing a combination of both feminism and racism.
So a completely different experience to a white woman's experience of patriarchy. It's a really important and essential element in conversations around what feminism is and what the goals of feminism should be. But I think we're now at the stage where feminists campaigns and movements have to take action to go that extra step, to acknowledge how racism and feminism intersect.
Because I think we're past the stage of just acknowledging the fact that feminism has been very white for a very long time, because it also, I would say even as a person of color, I've been affected by white feminism in so many ways, you know, even just earlier I said that the suffragette, so like for so many people, the original feminist, the historic view of what [00:32:00] feminism is should be and how it can be so incredible, but that was an incredibly white movement, which was actually very exclusive of, um, women of color and also of women of lower social classes. It was also a very, it was a very middle class, upper class white movement. 
Floss: Well, of course it was, it was white women who got the vote.
Exactly, exactly. That. And we don't talk about that enough. So I think. The thing that really helped me to learn, I'm still really learning about this. Um, but I study history at university and a lot of what I obviously wanted to study was the history of feminism. And I read a really incredible book called Global Feminism by one of my supervisors called Lucy Delap and it's kind of unpicking this idea of feminism in waves of the first wave and the second wave, because that is implicitly a very Eurocentric model of, of white feminism. And actually feminism has been around in these kinds of little pockets all over the world. Since the like 17th or 18th century, [00:33:00] there were campaigners from Nigeria who were pushing forward very similar things to what women in America were looking at or women in the UK. And. Because we have erased that history in mainstream feminist discourse. We forget that actually, this wasn't like a, you know, something that started in the quote unquote west, and we transported externally. This has existed all around the world, the idea, people of all, all sexes and genders should be treated equally is not exclusive to any race or any country or, you know, like civilization. It's not, it's so basic that obviously it's existed around the world for ages. And I think if you look into the history of feminism, particularly the global history of feminism that really opened my eyes to that, and made me realize that this shouldn't be hierarchical or there shouldn't be your Western. I hate using that word, but it shouldn't be seen like that. It should be [00:34:00] seen as a global movement, much more nuanced than the way that we see it right now. Um, so I would really recommend that book.
Yeah. Well, Kimberle Crenshaw, coined intersectional feminism, the term intersectional feminism, which explains I feel what we are moving into now to the point where it's almost non-negotiable that black women, that women of color, that disabled women, that trans women women from marginalised backgrounds groups working class women, will be included in feminism.
And I feel that that's what we're moving into, which gives me a lot of hope. Um, but like you said, that this question again is, do you feel that that feminism is still too white? Yes, of course. And in some places it will be extremely that way. You might find a small subculture where black feminists have created a beautiful subculture for themselves.
There are so many different pockets. So neither of us really want to give like a blanket statement to that question. What you said again about, is so important about the history of the suffragettes and how it did not start with them. That's what we're taught. And I feel like a lot of these [00:35:00] things, we will go around thinking that, and it's not because we're shitty feminists it's literally because it's what we're taught.
So I think it's always remaining open and new and going through a lot of ego deaths as well. The one thing I would say to fellow white women who listened to this is that just kind of try to park the ego when it comes to the conversations and go into it as if you are in literal baby is in, I know nothing.
And I'm so open to learning this shit
Onto the next question. This is another one from someone who wishes to remain anonymous. Is there a difference between being a vocal feminine? And a feminist activist. I've noticed that you don't refer to yourself as an activist floss and was wondering why that is 
 So I don't refer to myself as an activist.
First of all, because of the weight that that label has, I started to talk about the things I really cared about on social media from a young age, from like 17 [00:36:00] onwards, I was held to this standard of. Uh, living my life by some kind of morally pristine way. And so I don't know something about the title just doesn't sit well for me, because of the expectations that come with it.
My experience with it has just not been a comfortable one. Amika. What about you? 
Amika: Well, yeah, I was going to ask, I mean, do you think then that's more of a problem with. Social media or problem with social media activism. And the fact that as soon as you talk about one thing, you're then held up to that standard.
Like, I don't know if that's, if that is necessarily an entailment of the word activist or if it's the fact that as soon as that label...
Floss: My personal experience with it.
Amika: Because I mean, my personal experience has been the same. So, I mean, I can, I really agree with you that as soon as you are heralded as an activist, you're expected to have an opinion on every single, vaguely political or social issue and have the answers and, you know, be doing all the quote unquote right things. And that is incredibly scary. I think the reason that [00:37:00] I've been very keen to use the word activist is because I think I, like, I think it helps to break down that pressure. And I think I grew up with a very ridiculous stereotype of like this image of an activist who, you know, is always at protest, like spends every day over every task is always kind of doing these really like radical things or chaining themselves to like, the M 25 or whatever, and like that someone who has dedicated their whole life to a social cause and they deserve that title.
Um, and I think the more that I started out in campaigning and, um, with free periods and the more that people put that label on me, I try to reframe it as something that it just means to me, it just means doing something and caring enough to try to try and do something, to try and change the world. Like if you want to, if you want the world to be better and you want to do one tiny, small thing to contribute to making that world better. In my opinion, you are an activist. 
Floss: So you've [00:38:00] actually written a book called how to be an activist. Can you tell us a bit more about that? 
Amika: Yeah. So my book is called, Make it Happen: How To Be An Activist, and I think actually when I first talked to my publishers about that title, I said, I raised exactly that same issue that you just mentioned.
I said, I don't want to sound like I am the archetypal activists. I've got all the answers. I did this, I did this campaign in a certain way. If you want to make change, do exactly what I did because that's not how I view activism at all. Um, So I really hope that people read the book and take from it. The fact that being an activist just has to mean doing something. And actually the, the central concept of the book is that we've been taught as individuals, that we don't have much power. That the only way that we can engage in politics is by voting every five years or by emailing our MP and the hope that they change the thing that we asked them to change. Actually, I think that's a lie and we're being dismissed if we believe that. Buying into this myth of our own kind of marginalization as political actors, [00:39:00] actually, each individual. So much more power, particularly young people. Like I started my campaign that eventually changed government policy when I couldn't even vote. I was only 17. 
Floss: You're so cool!
Amika: So I mean, no, I'm just, I mean, I just, that's all activism is and like genuinely, I believe if I could do it, anyone really can.
Cause there was nothing like inherently special about me. Like. I wasn't born believing I as an activist or a change maker or campaigner they're like that, all such weighty and loaded-
Floss: You didn't come out of the womb with a placard! 
Amika: That'd be quite cool. But, um, I think that's, again, that's a problem with social media activism particularly, is that when you have that label or when you have that word in your bio, you're suddenly like this whole other class of person that has to have all the answers on everything. And like, I really felt it when, as soon as my campaign was successful. The questionnaire is always asked it by journalists or it interviews was, you know, so you're an activist. So what's your next campaign? You're going to [00:40:00] tackle the climate. Are you going to tackle? 
Floss: We look for saviours I think. 
Amika: Yes.
Floss: I think we do. Don't we, we look for saviors. We look for people it's like, so Amika George, what are you going to do next? 
Amika: Exactly. And I mean, I think for me, I think we have to try and reclaim that word activist without it becoming so individualized, um, to the point where people who people feel intimidated and the people who are young activists like us don't feel put off by the pressure that, that word burdens.
Floss: Yes. I fucking love that answer. And I can't wait to read your book. That's the last question today! 
Amika: I've loved it!
Floss: I've enjoyed it so much. 
Amika: Thanks 
Floss: so much for 
Amika: coming 
Floss: on!. 
Amika: Thanks for having me. I wish we could answer more. That was amazing. 
Floss: Thank you so much to everyone who sent in questions and to the amazing guest expert Amika George. I really enjoyed chatting with her today.
It was such good energy and I haven't spoke in depth I feel about patriarchy like that for a while. So I really hope that you get something from this episode [00:41:00] today. I'm so sorry that we didn't get to answer all of your questions. There were so many incredible ones. If you want to hear more from Amika, you can follow her and her many amazing projects on Instagram at Amika George.
If you've enjoyed today's episode, don't forget I'll be answering even more of your questions on the bonus episodes that are available to subscribers on Apple podcasts. Not just on feminism though. You can ask me anything. If you want your question answered by me, you can drop me a text or voicemail on WhatsApp on plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5.
And that's it for this many series. Feminism, I've loved exploring this topic and talking about it with you. Feminism is something that basically is the reason for my entire career. It's what charged me up when I was 17 years old. It was this big pit of rage that I had in my stomach. I know I've said that so many times, but that's basically how I got to where I am today was by following that passion and that fire and letting it guide me, allowing it to help me create my art, [00:42:00] allowing it to help me write, allowing it to help me make my decisions in life, whether it was dropping out of uni or quitting this job or making this connection with the person, because they cared about the same things too. Feminism has guided me probably for the last six years of my life. And so talking about it really excites me.
 Next week I'll be diving into a brand new topic and a new four-part miniseries, all about social media.
I can't wait for you to hear these conversations. The first episode is with my friend, Layla Saad, the author of Me And White Supremacy. And a massive, thank you to the fucking incredible Black Honey who composed the original theme music for my podcast. You can find them on Instagram app, black honey, UK, and check out their latest album called Written And Directed. 
To keep yourself updated with all the latest episodes as they drop, you can follow Exactly. On apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And please take the time to rate us wherever you listen [00:43:00] to your podcasts and give us a review. It really does help people to do. And make sure that the people who need to hear these conversations do. 
This is the podcast from something else. My producer is Milly Chowles'. Assistant producer is Ella McLeod. Executive producer is Carly male production coordinator is Lily Hambly and we have additional production from Chris Skinner. And I want to give a special thanks to our engineers, Jay Beale, Josh Gibbs and Gully Lawrence Tickell.