EXACTLY. With Florence Given. Episode 9: SOCIAL MEDIA: Racism, Rockets and Reading with Layla Saad

Floss: [00:00:00] Hello. Thank you so much for listening to exactly with me, Florece Given in this podcast, we're exploring five big themes from multiple angles: sex, social media, feminism, relationships, and body image. Today we're diving into a very big topic, social media. There's so much to talk about and so many angles that I want to explore, but for the first part, I'm going to be talking to one of my absolute heroes, Layla Saad about social media and activism. At the end of the episode, I'll be answering the questions that you've sent in via our podcast whatsApp number at plus 4 4 7 8 9 0 3 0 2 6 6 5. And in the fourth episode of this mini series on social media, I want to hear from you. My guest and I will be answering your calls, your texts and your voice notes.
So any questions or dilemmas that you have to do with anything that we've covered over the next [00:01:00] few episodes or anything else to do with social media, just drop me a line on WhatsApp.
So this mini season is all about social media. I'm absolutely fascinated with the topic of social media. As someone who's built an enormous platform on social media and on Instagram, I kind of use it as a springboard to talk about my ideas, my projects, it's helped me connect with all of you, it's helped me bring this podcast to life.
I think it's absolutely fascinating. I've seen real life examples of how social media can change people's lives. And part of doing this podcast is almost like an extension of my Instagram account because I feel as though Instagram has this thing. Where it's really hard to show the nuance and the depth that human life and human conversations have.
So that's why this podcast has been really important for me to do. It's [00:02:00] it's an extension of the stuff I've been doing on social media and an example of someone who has changed lives with a social media account and the way that they put on it is today's guest Layla Saad. She's the number one bestselling author of Me and White Supremacy, and a globally respected writer, speaker and host of the Good Ancestor Podcast, which I highly recommend listening to. Layla speaks on the topics of race, identity, leadership, personal growth, and transformation and social change. As an East African Arab British black Muslim woman, who was born and grew up in the west, and lives in the middle east, Layla has always sat at a unique intersection of identities from which he's able to draw rich and intriguing perspectives. Me and White Supremacy is Layla's first book. Initially it was self-published online for free following an Instagram challenge and hashtag under the same name and was downloaded close to 90,000 people around the world in the space of just six months.
Her book is now a New [00:03:00] York times bestseller. A few years ago later requested that I actually interview her and I turned it down because I didn't think I was ready for it. And I passed it onto a friend. I was 20 years old at the time. And being asked to interview Layla Saad to me was like being asked to interview Beyonce.
I had so much respect for Layla that I literally talked myself out the opportunity because I was so nervous. A year later though, she came back and she asked me to interview her, the UK publication of hub book. I told my manager the same thing again. I said, oh my God, I'm not the right person to do this. I've never interviewed anyone.
Uh, and she said, of course, you're the right person. She has literally requested you. And so I did it. And that was the day that I learned a lesson in sabotaging your own opportunities out of fear.. So having later on my podcast is day. It feels like a full circle moment. I feel like I've improved on my interviewing skills.
I've done it quite a few times now and I just feel, I feel super confident about speaking with her today. I'm just so excited. [00:04:00] She's, she's incredible. And you'll know why after hearing what she has to say today. 
Hello, Layla. I'm so excited to speak to you today. Thank you so much for coming on. 
Layla: I'm so excited to be here. I can't believe that you finally have a podcast and I get to be on it 
Floss: I know it's a, it's an honor to interview you. Um, I was saying to my producer earlier that you were actually the first person I ever interviewed and I was, I was so nervous about it a few years ago, and this feels like a full circle moment for me.
Layla: Oh, you were so well-prepared. I was like, I can't believe this is your first time. And I felt, I felt like I was in very safe hands. So I know this is going to be a great conversation.
Floss: Oh, thank you. That's that's really amazing for me to hear. So before we get into what I want to talk with you about today, um, I'm going to ask you my five quick fire questions.
I ask all of my guests, uh, these questions to say the first thing that comes to your mind. Okay. Question one. What's one thing that's sets your soul on fire? 
Layla: Books![00:05:00] 
Floss: Such a writers answer. Amazing. 
Layla: Yeah, they really do!
Well 
Floss: it's the first thing you said. So it's obviously, that's a very authentic answer. Okay uh, number two, if you could wear one outfit for the rest of your life and look that would define you forever, what would that be? 
Layla: Oh, it would probably be something where I'm like, like cinched at the waist and then it's like an, a line, but because I get I'm, uh, I'm very cold, so I would have to be covered. So if it was winter weather, it'd be able to put tights and boots on, you know what I mean? 
Floss: So we're being practical but cute!
Layla: Like, you know what I mean? Like variations on the same design, but basically a dress that cinches in at the waist.. 
Floss: Okay. Do you have a favorite colour? Do you know what colour it would be? 
Layla: Um, I like Emerald tones in general. Oh yeah. So any kind of Emerald tone, I'm happy with it.
Floss: Beautiful. Okay. Question number three. What's something that people frequently misunderstand or get wrong about you?. 
Layla: [00:06:00] That I'm only an anti-racist educator and that my sole desire in life is to talk to white people about how to not be racist. 
Floss: Okay. Brilliant. Very honest. Love it. Okay. Question number four um, finish the sentence. I'm still a work in progress when it comes to..?
Layla: Uh, gosh, I'm still a work in progress when it comes to confrontation and, you know, dealing with people who push my buttons cause I get flustered easily and I'm very sensitive, and you know, it's like, you know, those, um, reels where you see somebody like practicing the things they would have said in the argument afterwards.
Yes. That's me. Like, I need time to process what it is that I want to say. I know what I want to say, but it just gets stuck. 
Floss: Okay. So, so would you say, would you say you react [00:07:00] or you freeze?. 
Layla: I would say, I, I would say I probably freeze. Um, I think I've gotten better at it and that's why I am I'm a work in progress because I think for a long time it was like the fluster would come from just not wanting people, not to like me.
Something that I've just had to work on for a really long time. I think we can all relate to that. 
Floss: Yes!
And then the other thing is that, like I said, I'm highly sensitive as well. So I read into a lot of nuance that I can also see it from both perspectives. So sometimes I lose holding my own ground because I'm trying to be empathetic to the other person.
And then I, you know, like I'm allowing you to disrespect me because I'm being empathetic to what you're saying 
Empathy to a fault, at times? 
Layla: That's right. Right. And I had to learn, and it's only when people like my husband are like, reflecting it back to me. Like I'm explaining a situation. And he's like, you can't let people [00:08:00] talk to you like that, just because you feel bad for their situation, you know, it's not an excuse.
Floss: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, it's one of the trade-offs of being incredibly understanding, which is such a beautiful thing and we need more of it in the world. Is that it works against you sometimes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Very important. Okay. The last quick fire question. Thank you for that. 
Layla: That wasn't quick was it? 
Floss: I got carried away there, I was like so what's behind that?
Okay. Next question. When was the last time you majorly cringed at yourself? 
Layla: Oh, this is a hard one because it's been a while, which is good because what it used to be, you know what I used to cringe, like if I did a talk and then, um, like my husband would be listening back to it, like watching a recording in the same room?
Floss: In the same room as you?
Layla: Oh my God. I would die. You know what I mean? It'd be like, please do this in your own time or put some headphones on. Cause I don't [00:09:00] need to hear me and witness you watching me. But I'm better at it now. Cause I I'm like, yeah, I did that talk. Right. Like, and I'm really proud of myself that I did that. So that was one of my major ones though. Like I'd DIE! 
Floss: My, my friends played my first episode of my podcast on the pub aux cord. Oh, wow. So like the whole pub was listening and I was just [inaudible] so I totally feel you on that one. 
Congratulations on your TEDx talk. It's just such an achievement and so amazing and something I feel like you've probably been preparing for, for awhile. 
Layla: It's definitely some thing like when I first started doing vision boards back in 2005 probably five probably. Um, that was one of the first things I put on there.
So I put it on there and I, I don't do vision boards anymore. I kind of, um, I write more now. So I shared something yesterday, for example, that [00:10:00] was like, this is my vision for my future. The truth of it is far. And so this. I'm able to be in the room with my husband while he's watching me do my Ted talk and not feel cringy is that I wasn't ready to do it all of those years.
I needed to live some more. I needed some more experience I needed to get into a more comfortable relationship with myself, so that when I, I think a part of me inherently knew that I would it would feel more like a failure than a success. If I stood on a stage like that and gave a talk, but the whole time inside I was white knuckling it because I didn't feel like I was worthy of standing on that stage.
I didn't feel like I belonged. I needed to do the work over the years to overcome that. So that when I stood on that stage, I loved every single moment that I was on that stage. And I walked off saying to myself, well done, you did [00:11:00] it and you, and what nobody sees is that it was an internal success because what I did was stand in front of a predominantly white audience in this massive amphitheater to really a theater and talk about the importance of reading books by black authors and authors of color, and did it without wincing without feeling like I'm sorry to offend, either thinking I'm being too much or I'm not being enough, but none of that was. Yeah. 
Floss: So, so the difference between what you did there and what you do on Instagram is you don't see your audience, actually, your Instagram audiences enormously bigger than the TEDx talk, but you don't have to see their faces.
It's just you and the camera, right? It's easier. 
Layla: Oh, it's a, it's a lot harder when it's living, breathing people who take up physical space, you know what I mean? And, uh, so, um, it was, uh, it was really one, it just felt like such a. It's a shifting moment for me, you know, a full circle moment for me of you did this for [00:12:00] you, and I'm really proud of you, you know?
Floss: Today's episode is all about social media and activism. And I dunno if you feel this way, but I had a lot of shame around my desires to create enormous work, because I thought that it couldn't have possibly aligned with the goals of social justice. Um, if I was creating work that was successful, but you need the scale and you need the impact and the reach to actually quote unquote, do the work.
Right. Right, right. You need to have that scale. And I think it lit something up inside of me to see you claim that space you've made Instagram work for you instead of the other way around now, you kind of get this false sense of being a part of someone's journey when you follow them on Instagram. And I've seen you go from when you launched the Me and white supremacy challenge in 2018, even just as a, as an outsider, I could see that it must've been absorbing and sucking like the living soul out of you energetically and through what I've seen of you on Instagram over the last years, I feel like you've been reclaiming that energy. Yeah, [00:13:00] Is that correct?, 
Layla: You know, it's a journey that started, like you said, in 2018 and I'm for so many reasons, so grateful for the journey. And at the same time, it's not as straightforward as having a quote unquote success with something that doesn't like you said, suck the living life out of you, you know?
Things that I'm teaching is what I experienced. And so I have to pull from my experience and sometimes actively have to deal with the very thing. That I'm talking about while I'm teaching it. And I, I'm also grateful to the journey because it has forced me essentially to have to develop my relationship with myself and learn how to have better boundaries and learn how to, um, define myself for myself, um, so that I can survive and thrive.
And to your point around like ambition and wanting to create something great and big, and the feelings of. [00:14:00] Is this okay. If I'm really passionate about social justice, I think that's something that each one of us has to negotiate for ourselves and define for ourselves, um, because there are many ways to do the work and there are as many ways to do the work of, um, liberation as there are unique human beings in the world, right? There is no single other person like you, Florence, you are uniquely, you, you ha you have had your unique experiences. You have your unique dreams and visions and your unique skills and talents and your own unique perspective.
And so whatever you create is going to be uniquely you. Right? And so for us to try and say, well, but the way that I've seen this being done is this way. So I have to fit myself into that. It's both a disservice to you as a human being. And it's also really a disservice to the movement. I believe for [00:15:00] liberation, because you're not actually bringing your best self to the work.
You're bringing a version that is a facsimile of other things that you've seen. 
Floss: Yeah, and I feel like you're always going to be more successful and actually get incredible results that will even blow your own mind. You didn't even realize you were capable of this when you followed that unique pursuit, right. To anyone listening who doesn't know what the Me and White Supremacy challenge was could you explain a little bit about the challenge and how that came to be? Because most Instagram challenges are, you know, posting a different color of an outfit every day. And Layla actually challenged her entire Instagram audience to discuss their own white privilege.
Layla: I was like tell me ways that you are racist, please. Share it with all of us. Right. And I will say Florence. I think you're one of those people who you obviously were in the challenge and you were doing the challenge and you were probably [00:16:00] one of the few where, you know, people who had a larger platform who were like actively engaged in the work and that's why I have so much respect for you and, um, I just feel really comfortable around you. Um, because I know how much you did the work. Like we were there together.
Floss: Yeah, sure, It was ugly and horrible
Layla: But it was like you said, an Instagram challenge, unlike any other Instagram challenge that had been seen, uh, at the time, each day, sharing a different concept of white supremacy and then asking people who had white privilege. To share their relationship with that aspect of white supremacy and how it showed up in their lives, on my platform.
So it was white fragility or tone policing, white silence, cultural appropriation, white feminism is a big one and basically asking some reflective questions and saying basically, can you live [00:17:00] journal in the comments section? Of these posts? It was a wild adventure. I would say that, I think for all of us, to say the least, because, you know, Florence, it's not like I knew that it would then become this workbook, which would then become a published book, which would then become a bestseller, which then in today, tied 2022 to say the words, white supremacy, to say the words white privilege is normal, but in 2018, which isn't that long ago, it was so. Are you saying, I am a Ray, you're saying I am a racist. You're saying I am the KKK. 
Floss: That's because your, your decision Layla in your book, you mentioned the decision to call the book me on white supremacy and not me and white privilege was intentional content. 
Layla: Absolutely. Because it's important to name the systems of oppression for what they are.
We don't make them less violent by naming them something less confrontational. You know, white supremacy is this idea that people who are [00:18:00] white or who look white are superior, inherently superior to people of all other races and therefore deserve to be dominant over people of other races and therefore are allowed to do whatever they want to people of all other races and do whatever they want in those countries.
Right. Where there's people live, we name it, what it is so that we can face it directly. We take the taboo out of just looking at it so we can look deeper into how it operates and really get activated to, to create change.
Floss: You clearly are a very intentional person and I think. This is like probably the biggest purpose led job arena to walk into what led you to choosing to do this and write the book and do the challenge. I can only tell my story, but from what I have heard and seen, [00:19:00] when I've talked to other people who are in this work, it's not something that we necessarily chose.
I've always felt and known that I wanted to do work, that it would in some way. Um, help people in some way, help make the world a better place in some way, change the world for the better, but I would try this and I would try that and it just doesn't quite feel right. And that doesn't quite feel right.
And then when I, the first thing that I hit upon that, that this feels right, is actually understanding that I am not best as a coach. I'm actually best as a writer. Right. Like me helping to change the world. The big thing that I do is I use my voice. And then in 2016, The, you had the U S presidential elections going on and suddenly conversations that had been ongoing for decades about racism became a little bit more mainstream, just because of the rhetoric of that [00:20:00] particular presidential nominee who became president.
And you began to see things like the Muslim ban and obviously I'm Muslim. And I see something like that and it's like, wow. You know? And so I sort of started dipping my toe into sharing some things aroundwhat I was seeing and believing and just how I felt. And then in 2017, the unite, the right rally happened in Charlottesville, Virginia.
And at that time I was, um, I was still coaching, but I was, my audience was primarily white women.
Okay, and your coaching Layla, what did your coaching involve at this point? 
Layla: So I was doing one-on-one coaching, but I was also doing group coaching and it was around sort of helping people who were solo- preneurs, bring their best selves into their businesses and create businesses that were aligned with who they are authentically, not just wanting to make money to make money, but doing it in a way that was aligned with their gifts. Right. 
Floss: Okay. And, um, mostly white women. Did you say?
Layla: Not by [00:21:00] design
I don't know what to tell you. Florence. 
Floss: They just flocked!
Layla: They just flocked in and they weren't they were women who I think would consider. Spiritual, you know, um, whatever their definition of that was. And so you see this rally happening, you see all of these things happening with racism, and I'm looking at my audience and I'm like, and people who I was learning from and looking up to, and I'm like these white women are talking about, they want to change the world and want to make the world a better place.
Why are they not talking about racism? Like, that's a big thing that needs to be tackled. Right? Obviously, there are many big things that need to be tackled, but me being a black woman, that's my experience. So I'm wondering why, why are we not talking about this? Right. And why are you not putting to use these tools that you're using to break through your fears and fight the [00:22:00] patriarchy and all of these things, to racism? And I think also in that particular round, there's also a lot of, I don't know if it's still as rampant, but there was so much cultural appropriation happening, appropriating God's Hindu gods and goddesses and native American spiritual practices and tools. And so I'm watching it and I'm like, this doesn't, this doesn't feel right.
Something's not right. But when that, um, Rally happened. It was like, I'm very God led. Right. Um, and I felt like God was like, sit down and write. And so I didn't know what I was going to write. It was just like word vomit. Right. Um, and I, and it was like the working title was black lives matter. And, um, I just wrote this piece and I ended up renaming it.
Um, I need to talk to spiritual white women about white supremacy. Right. And so that's 2017 a [00:23:00] year before me and white supremacy. So you can imagine people were even more offended in 2016 by this idea that you would, you would, you would put nice spiritual white women in the same sentence as white supremacy.
Wow. Right. And so that's how I started my journey into talking about race and white supremacy and anti-racism. And then a year later I had noticed a shift. That people were less sensitive about it and less defensive. And so I wanted to know what have they learned about themselves and white supremacy.
And that's how me and white supremacy began. And in each iteration I've been so surprised that people were like, I want to do the work. I know this is scary. And, um, this isn't going to be a fun ride, but I am going to show up and I'm going to try my best. It's been. 
Floss: Yeah, you have a skill for sure. For 'em and it's so good that, you know, that skill, like you said, you knew that like God sat you down and was like, I need to [00:24:00] write, and this is what I need to do.
This is my tool. And I feel like everyone does have a different tool and a different part to play. And I think what can happen often is people become overwhelmed. I know this with my audience. They become overwhelmed with the information that I give them, or what they read on the internet and they actually become disempowered.
I really like about what you do with, with your platform is that you give people actionable things that they can do and present multiple ways to be a quote, unquote activist. And I don't think you, you don't need a, uh, an enormous half a million followers platform to do your work. You know, like the dinner table could be your soap box, as long as you have people around you.
And there are many ways to do activism. And I think obviously the both of us have written books and, but writing books, aren't the only way to become an activist. And I was wondering if you have any other ways that people can act on this information that they learned from this episode or from the other [00:25:00] work, if they follow you on social media.
And what are the other ways that you can make a change, because all the stuff you're talking about is so important. 
Layla: I think that there are so many. Incredible writers, thought leaders, educators, activists, whatever communities that you're currently in, or people that you're following. If their work resonates with you, the way that they show up resonates with you, you know, show up there and do that work.
Because I talk about this idea of being a good ancestor, right? We have our podcasts and our book club and this idea of being a good answers. I love what you said about you don't need a platform. You don't need it. You can be a good ancestor in whatever arena that you're in, whatever platform that you have, if your platform, quote, unquote, is your family, right?
Your platform is your school, is your workplace. Um, is your book club, whatever it is like, that's your space in which you can show up, use your voice. That's something that I'm really. Passionate about and something I'm going to be [00:26:00] working on a lot over the next, I would say two years or so is giving people tools to use their voice. Because when we use our voice, we can speak truth to power. We can say this isn't right. We can call people in and invite them into our vision of a more beautiful, loving future. Right. And we liberate ourselves when we use our voice as well, because we're saying I deserve to take up space and to be here.
Like I, I matter. Um, and so I really want to encourage people to use their voices awkwardly, you know, cause that's how it's going to be. 
Floss: Yeah. I don't expect it to be comfortable. I think, I think the illusion of social media activism is that it's easy because you see other people doing it. And then what they don't understand is that perhaps this person has spent years doing the messy stuff privately so that they are able to talk about it with these on the internet. And I think there's, um, there's almost, there's because there's a lot of guilt that comes up in [00:27:00] conversations of privilege, whether it's white privilege, class privilege, financial privilege, whatever. Um, there's a lot of guilt comes with that.
And so there's almost now I feel been this quick way to assuage that guilt, which is by maybe just sharing it in. And calling it a day, um, which, you know, people can be accused of performative activism, but social media is inherently performative. Right. So it's hard. I feel to have the balance of not staying silent on things that you care about, but also not doing it just to assuage that, that kind of guilt.
Layla: Absolutely. You know what I, I really. The way that I think about it, because obviously I've built up my work through Instagram and I've built up a following through Instagram, but it's always been important to me to not see Instagram as my body of work. Instagram is something that, as we know, can just disappear.
Like it can just not be working.
Floss: Absolutely! [00:28:00] Lost my soap box now!
Layla: And so what is, what is the body of work that you are building up that will stand the test of time? For me, that is something really tangible. I started my very first question that you asked me it's books. That's why I love books because someone can pass on and decades later, we can still access. Their energy, their wisdom, their lessons, because they put it into a book.
Right. And so for me, um, one of the tangible ways that I, that I will know that I have been a good ancestor when I come to the end of my life, is that- I hope I live a very long life, so I can do this- is be able to have a stack of books that I've written the same way that Tony Morrison has a stack of books, bell hooks has a stack of books, Octavia Butler has a stack of books, Audre Lorde, Maya Angelou, they have their stack of books. So we can say, Hey, what would they think. We could just go and find it [inaudible].
We can [00:29:00] literally just find it, right. So what is your body of work? And your body of work may not be a stack of books. Your body of work may be the organization that you pour your energy into. It may be. Conversations that you are, you know, like a podcast is something that can cause technology, you know, evolves.
We still have recordings that were recorded on big, you know, cassettes and LPs and things like that. They can still be accessed now. Right. Um, and that's why I podcast as well, because I want people's wisdom to be captured and we can hear it in their own voice, and, you know-
Floss: It humanises you a lot more as well. I feel like what you're saying about Instagram, not being your body of work, I've always felt the same in that I'm almost using it as the springboard to say the things I want to say.
Lately, you have taken so many people on enormous journeys with your work. And I'm not exaggerating when I say this, but I think that you have absolutely shifted the paradigm for discussions on anti-racism [00:30:00] everywhere. Um, and I think you have definitely made your fucking mark on the world, um, because, because also, because your impact is immeasurable you've, you've influenced me heavily and I, myself am a quote unquote, influencer of thousands of people.
So then you think about the domino effect of your words and your work. It's it's, it's massive. You've put so many people on the journey and I was wondering what journey doing this part cause brought you one. 
Layla: I love this question before I answer it though, can I just say thank you for saying all of that and I receive it and I just want to reflect to people that that ripple effect it is an effect, no matter how big your quote unquote again, platform is, right?
So if you're impacting again, just your family, but each of those members of the family have people that they impact and it radiates out. So you can't even measure it. Like you said, it's the measurable, right? And so we should never. Underestimate [00:31:00] just how much of an impact we could be having just by having a conversation with a single person.
Um, so I just wanted to say that first, because not to. You know, diminish all of the wonderful compliments that you just gave me, but all of us are, are, you know, are, um, having that impact in whatever way that is.
Floss: Uh, but your, your, your immeasurable impact that we're now talking about, which is just huge.
Also just started with you writing my article, which at the time seemed really small so they can lead to bigger things. 
Layla: Absolutely. 400 subscribers, I think at that time. So I don't even think people, I thought people would just be like, what is she on? You know?
And instead it went viral and I was like, wow. And I suddenly had, you know, two, I think, I think at one point I stopped looking cause it was like 250,000 people. Right. You know what I mean? I'm like, this is just too much. [00:32:00] Um, but the journey, this has taken me on. I have also had to understand how it impacts me and how it shows up within me and the way that it shows up within me, um, is that, you know, I'm not immune to it.
It's not just that I may have been at the receiving end of somebody else's racism. No, I also ingested this poisonous idea that I am inferior. Um, and so from the very beginning I was being given messages that you are inferior. You are less than you do not take center stage. You are, you, you are not, you are not the standard.
You are the other, and this journey that I have been on is looking at how have I ingested this poison? What has it done to me? How does it affect how I show up within myself and my relationship with myself and my relationship with other people? And what is the work of removing that poison for my system that I need to do.
And the way that I do that is [00:33:00] realizing outside of the violence of like how white supremacy shows up the way society enacts that upon you mentally and emotionally, I was the biggest agent of white supremacy against myself because inside, I am the one telling myself you're not good enough to be here. You're not good enough to stand here. And I had to overcome that. And I think it's something that is certainly a lifelong journey, but it, and it, and it happens every time I'm ready to level up and accept. Yes. It comes back around, you know, like this thing is too big!, 
Floss: I interviewed Dr Thema, um, for an episode of this podcast and she talks a lot about, um, oh God love her!
She has the most wise little soundbites, just so good. Um, and she says something about. Um, when you're about to launch your rocket, like you'll always get invitations to return to the pit. And [00:34:00] I know she just finishes it off with: decline every time.
Layla: Decline every time!
Floss: Decline the invitation to return to the pit you're about to launch. And like she says, all this stuff, old characters from your past will show up when you're about to launch and all this kind of stuff. And I think that speaks to a lot what, what you're talking about right now, but do I really deserve this on the cusp and you just have to trust and launch?
Layla: Yes. Yeah. One of the dreams that I put out in that, um, posts that I posted yesterday was that I want to partner with a big name publisher and lead a publishing imprint that centers and celebrates authors of color. Now, objectively. That makes sense because I host a podcast that centers and celebrates BIPOC authors. I myself am a black author.
Like there's no reason why that can't happen. Right. But at the same time, it's like, oh my God. Like I, my really saying that I can do that. [00:35:00] You know what I mean? 
Floss: Like who does she think she is? 
Layla: Who does she think she is, right? Don't I have to prove that isn't there something more that I'm supposed to be doing and you have to like check yourself and be like, no, wait, where's that voice coming from?
What is that? Well, who is that naysayer and where is that really coming from? And oftentimes it's some combination of racism and sexism.
Floss: Okay. Layla. So these are some questions from my audience. Um, I'd love if you could give me a hand answering. What's the difference between authentic activism and, yeah, 
Layla: Wouldn't it be great if there was like a list right? Of like these actions are authentic activism and these actions are virtue signaling, right?
There is no definitive answer. I think that what it comes down to, well, one of the things that it comes down to, and I talk about this in my book is what is your intention? First of all right. That has to be a first that -has [inaudible]
Floss: what's behind it?
Layla: What's [00:36:00] behind it, right?. And then also one of the things that's really important to consider when we use our voice is it can be a sword that can like slice through the BS, right.
Slice through the darkness to reveal the light, or it can just like, like cause harm. Right. And so being aware of when I use my voiceand that includes sharing something, cause that's activating something. Maybe you're sharing something somebody else wrote. Am I using my sword, like to slice through the BS and reveal truth?
Or am I using it to like in some way cause harm? The other thing that I would say is that you have to consider like the full picture of what you're doing. So if the only thing that you're doing is posting infographics, but you yourself are not doing the deep inner work that people don't see then oftentimes what's happening is you're taking the easy route out, which is people can see [00:37:00] that I'm doing something that is an anti-racist action objectively it is, but I haven't really dug deep to uncovering what I'm, how I contribute to this, how I'm complicit here. 
Floss: I feel like when we react to things and I used to do this myself, when I first started getting into anti-racism work, I would be the person in people's messages. Like, why haven't you spoke about this thing that happened 10 minutes ago, but I found out, and I'm a better person than you.
That's one of my biggest cringiest moments is that that moral righteousness of trying to quickly get rid of these feelings. But that was like quick burn activism, as opposed to like a slow burn of, let me take some time to think about this before I talk. So I think you're right about the intention behind it. 
Layla: I think what you're hitting on is a really key piece that I think it's important for people to understand, which is that this, um, journey is a journey.
And so when we start out and we become aware of these injustices, We do become outraged and we do become upset and we can't believe, we didn't know. And now we want everyone [00:38:00] else to know. And we, we understand that we're way overdue for change. And so we come at it with this urgency that isn't coming from an N like the intention is good, right.
The intention is, this is a good thing. I need to like rally the troops. We, white people are so, you know, complacent. Right, right. And then as you go along with the journey and you do the deeper work, which is when people here that do the work, they're like, what does that mean? I don't see it as the external piece.
I see it as the internal piece. We need to, um, understand how society is currently set up. We need to be quiet and listen to the people who are impacted. We need to then learn how to think critically and do our own research. Like it's such a journey there's so many things. And as we go along it over the years, and I do want to say it's years, right, that moral righteousness- definitely I had it. I had, like when I started, I was so full of anger, [00:39:00] so full of anger, Florence, like for a long time, until I reached a point where I really. This anger is actually destroying me. It's actually destroying the essence of me and I'm not using it. It's using me and it's going to kill me.
Oh yeah. There's this belief, oftentimes like to be real in social justice, you should always be angry and you should always be in a state of trauma and you shouldn't enjoy- don't enjoy things. 
Floss: It's the balance between almost not turning policing yourself and acknowledging the anger is something that is important, and thank God you can feel anger because it means you care. And also knowing that there is a more effective way to address a situation that will get your needs met.. 
Layla: The results, the results that you want, but you're not going to get the result that you want. And oftentimes you'll end up hurting yourself and other people.
So when I get angry, yeah. I have to have a little conversation with myself, you know? 
Floss: So Layla, how did your social [00:40:00] circles react when you first started advocating? Online?
Layla: I had a very close friend, a really nice slight woman. And we had been friends for a number of years. And when I wrote that article about spiritual white women and white supremacy, she just basically disappeared herself from my life.
Like, yeah, it just, it just changed things for me. And I've been through many things. Fears that have also changed what my social circles look like. And the point at which I'm at now is a very discerning about who I let into my inner circle. And that we are aligned in values is really important that we are grownups, right?
No cattiness, no drama, no BS, no. You know, none of that, just people who are on the journey of growth and who are trying their best to show up in the world in liberation for themselves and for others. 
Floss: Wow. I love Layla so much. I really hope that this episode leaves you with a lot of food for thought. I can [00:41:00] imagine that it would we covered so much.
Social media and activism is probably a lot more relevant now than it was a few years ago before Layla wrote her book and did the Me and White Supremacy challenge, like I said, it absolutely changed my life and I cannot recommend her book enough. I'm not trying to say this. Like it's an enjoyable thing. It's not enjoyable. It's just fucking necessary. You can follow Layla on her Instagram account @LaylaFSaad and you can purchase her book, Me and White Supremacy on Amazon. Waterstones your local indie, she has so many editions out. She also has a young readers edition of Me and White Supremacy for people under the age of 18.
And a massive thank you to the fucking incredible Black Honey who composed the original theme music for my podcast. You can find them on Instagram app, black honey, UK, and check out their latest album called written and directed. To keep yourself updated with all the latest episodes as they drop, you can follow exactly on apple podcasts, [00:42:00] Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
And please take the time to rate us, wherever you listen to your podcast and give us a review. It really does help people to find us and make sure that the people who need to hear this conversations do this is the podcast from something else. My producer is Milly Chowles, assistant producer is Ella McLeod. Executive producer is Carly Maille production coordinator is Lily Hambly and we have additional productionfrom Chris Skinner, and I want to give a special thanks to our engineers Jay Beale, Josh Gibbs. Gulli Lawrence Tickell.