Claudia Please note this episode contains some emotional content, including discussion around suicide, and may not be suitable for all listeners. Simran I think I'm a bit scared a bit worried about what they're going to tell me. Tanya In what sense? Simran I'm worried that my mum had this kind of whole other life that I didn't know about. Claudia Hello, and welcome to How Did We Get Here?; the podcasts were me, Claudia Winkleman, and my fantastic and brilliant friend, clinical psychologist Professor Tanya Byron look at some of the challenges people are facing, either themselves or with their families. Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions while I'm listening in from another room. In the break and at the end, I asked Tan a bit about her process, and we explore the issues that are raised. This time we meet Simran, whose mother took her own life eight years ago. Simran had no inclination that her mother was unhappy and still doesn't fully understand what happened. Simran We just had a great time together. And that's it, that's the last time I saw her. Tanya No clue? Simran Absolutely no idea. Claudia What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one time, unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the programme notes of this episode. Let's go and meet Simran. Simran How are you? Claudia I'm alright. Thank you so much for coming in. I've just got to tell anyone who's listening that if they hear weird noises, it's because of these sofas. Simran Yes. Claudia it's not you and I squeaking. Let me ask, why are you here? Simran When mum passed away, I kind of put it to the back of my mind and didn't really deal with it very well. And recently, I've been thinking about mum a lot more. When mum comes to the forefront of my mind. How do I deal with it? I'm in a meeting, and then all of a sudden someone smiles like my mum and I think, oh, God! Claudia It's coming. Simran Yep. Yep. And then I think, "Oh, I'm gonna cry". And then I'll freeze. And so it's things like that, kind of techniques as to, you're gonna have to handle it somehow. Claudia If I may ask, how long ago did she pass away? Simran It was eight years ago. Claudia Are there people that you can talk to about it, that helps. Simran Yeah, so, my auntie who is just fantastic. my auntie Cam. Tom, my partner. And also, my best mate, Hattie. Claudia Yeah. And what about your dad and siblings? Simran No. My brother, we've got a very jokey relationship. We'll have a laugh. but we rarely talk about anything particularly seriously. I just don't feel comfortable speaking to my dad about it, because we don't really have that type of relationship. It's very transactional. I love him. I love him so much and he loves me. He's very much, "How are you?", "Yeah, I'm good.", "How are you?". Claudia So, the person you were closest to then... Simran Mum. Claudia That must be so hard. Simran Yeah. Claudia Well, you've come to the right place. Thank you so much for coming. I will bring the brilliant professor in, and I hope we can be helpful. Tanya It feels like her feels like a millstone. Really, it feels like it's something that weighs heavily on you still. Simran Definitely day-to-day, but also massive milestones as well. So, Tom and I bought a house nine months ago. Tanya Do you wnat her to see it? Simran However lovely that was, and it was a massive accomplishment, she just wasn't there. So, when mum passed away, I was in my first year of uni. Did she not think? Yeah, and then I get, become quite angry. Tanya Yeah... Simran Sp, I'm still really frustrated. Tanya Yeah, I see. You're angry with her. Simran Yeah. Tanya Claudia is brilliant at interviewing people. Claudia didn't ask you how your mother passed away. Simran Hmm. Tanya And it's because there's a story. Simran Yeah. Tanya And I think she sensed the story is so big... Simran Yeah. Tanya That maybe, she wanted to leave me, to ask you, to tell me the story. Simran Okay, so, mum committed suicide in the garbage at home. I don't know what she used. I don't know what time it was. I'm just not too sure. But it was in March, in 2012. Back then, I was at uni at the time. It was Easter holidays, and I was planning to come home. And, I'd just started a job that day. I was expecting her to call to ask, "how's your day been?". And, she didn't call and then it got to the end of the day, still nothing. Then, I started worrying and panicking. Called dad. Dad is like, "I'll find out where she is". Okay. Then I called my brother, and I remember my brother saying, "it is a bit weird, but why are you freaking out?". I never believe people when they say, "oh, I just had a feeling". I had a... I genuinely... I had this overwhelming feeling of, "Oh, crap, something has happened". So, then I called could my auntie Rukshar she said, "Oh, that's strange. I haven't heard from your mum either today". I said to Rukshar, "would you mind passing our house?", She went round, looked at the house, curtains were all open, no lights were on mum's Mini was on the drive. Tanya Where was your dad? Simran Dad was working in Leeds. Tanya Okay, so he was away. Simran So, he works away. Tanya Right, okay. Simran And I was home alone in Brighton. That's where I went to uni and just stayed awake the whole night. Throughout the whole night, I'd watched Freaky Friday with Lindsay Lohan because, that was the only film I had downloaded on my laptop and me and mum used to watch it all the time together. Anyway half seven comes in the morning. And, it's dad and he's like, "Right your auntie Cam and your auntie Rukshar, are outside now. You need to come home". And I remember asking, "Where's mum?", And he said, "you'll find out when you get home". So, my aunties turned up at about half seven in the morning and I opened the door and, I remember just saying, "Can you just tell me what's happened to mum?" and my auntie Rukshar went to the loo and I looked at my auntie Cam, dead, like, straight in the eye and I said, "She's not dead, is she?", and when Cam didn't say anything back to me I punched a door, which is so... it's just so unlike me. I scratched myself, I was throwing things and I remember just sobbing, just crying and crying and crying. And, I remember leaving a tissue in my bed and thinking, "When I get back, I'm gonna have to... I need this tissue because, I will be distraught." It was my friend's birthday in the easter holidays, and I'd bought a dress and heels for this specific birthday party. And I remember thinking I need to pack that. Because, I just was denying it. I just didn't want to believe that that was happening. Tanya You were both denying it and accepting it, it's a very weird sort of cognitive space to be in, isn't it? Because, on the one hand, you're looking at the tissue, because you recognise you're gonna cry and cry and you need comfort. And then, on the other hand, you're thinking, Oh, I better pack the dress and heels because I'm going to go to the party. Simran Yeah. Tanya So, that's the mind sliding between it's happened. No, it absolutely hasn't happened. You're in shock, that's shock, right. Where the brain is trying to catch up with reality and is spinning around this kind of axis of complete unwillingness to accept what has happened. You lost your most significant other and didn't you? You lost... Hold on, let me give you some tissues, please can I give you a tissue? These are to comfort you as well. Simran Thank you. I'm upset because, I still feel like that, "Oh, everything's fine. Everything's fine." Okay. And then other times, I feel, "Oh my God, I cannot believe that, that happened to me." Just here talking about it, going over the story again, It feels like I read it in a book. It was eight years ago. I feel like I'm back at square one sometimes. Tanya You're right, you're stuck. You're completely stuck. I think our task is to work out, how you can unstick yourself, so that you can do what feels to me like the next piece of the processing. In order to be able to learn to live differently, with probably the most tragic experience you'll ever have in your life. I get a sense that your way of keeping going has been to be very goal orientated... Simran Oh, yeah, definitely. Tanya Am I right? Simran Yes. Tanya So, tell me a bit about that. Simran I've always had a goal. When mum passed away, the goal was then graduate at least with a two one and, I did it. Tanya Okay, congratulations. Simran Thank you very much. Next, get a job. Got a job. But that wasn't enough. So then, I thought, right, what can I do? I'm gonna go climb a mountain for charity. Tanya Wow. Simran With a couple of months after, I went to India for six months with my grandparents, and taught English in this little village. Because, I thought that's another goal, right? Another tickbox, right? Next, get into a relationship. Tom just so happened to come into my life. Then we, you know, got together. Rightn next goal. And, then it's just all just goal, goal, goal, goal, goal. Tanya So you're always moving. Simran Yeah. Tanya Your mind is always busy. Simran Yeah, Tanya Focused. And, what happens when you have a moment, when you stop? Simran I get very, very low. Tanya Right. And, what do you think that tells us a little bit about? That sort of quite fast moving, goal-focused, solution-focused, tick box approach, to dealing with pain? Simran Distracting myself from the pain, aren't I? Tanya You're absolutely right. It's a way of avoiding pain. Simran Yeah, I think, I think I know that. But, it doesn't, It doesn't stop me from doing that. Tanya I think because you're scared. What are you afraid of? Simran Myself, I'm worried that if I get that low and that sad, I'm worried that I'm going to do it. Tanya That you'll become so low. Simran Yeah. Tanya And you'll feel so desperate, that the only solution then wouldn't be to climb a mountain anymore? Simran No. Tanya It would be to end your own life. Simran Yeah. Tanya That's terrifying for you. Simran It is, yeah. But, I'm also afraid that Tom will do it. You know, not just Tom, but everyone who's close to me. I constantly feel, "Oh, they haven't text back, I wonder where they are." Tanya You've got two issues going on here. You've got the fact you lost your mum when you were young. And then, the other issue for you, is that your mother's death was preventable, in the sense that if someone had known or if she had asked for some support, she could still be alive. So, why do you believe that, if you were to really look at all of that and try and process it emotionally in a way that would be helpful for you, either you would take your own life or someone close to you would? I wonder whether it's because at some level, you hold a sense of responsibility for what happened to your mum. That you feel somehow... Simran Hmm. Tanya Maybe you could have done something or said something and she wouldn't have taken her life. So, somewhere in all of this, you blame yourself. Simran I do you feel that. But as quickly as that thought comes into my mind, the rational side of me then thinks, "Well no, you couldn't have been. Because, she was a grown up and she's very intelligent." And... And then I start thinking, "And, who do you think you are Sim? Who do you think you are that you could save someone's life? No, no, that would never happen." Tanya But, were you and your mum close? Simran Yeah, really close. Tanya Did you speak often? Simran Yeah. Every day. Tanya Did you tell her your thoughts and feelings? Simran Yep. Tanya And did she tell you hers? Simran I thought she did. Tanya Right. Well, that's the point, isn't it? Simran Mm hmm. Tanya It's not that you would have run into the garage at the time of her doing it saved her. That's not what I mean. I mean, I wonder whether it's left you feeling utterly devastated , that she didn't tell you how she was feeling. Do you replay in your mind the last time you saw her? Simran Yeah, all the time. Tanya And can you can you tell me a bit about that? How was that? Simran Yeah, it was lovely. So, it was my birthday, which is in February. So, it's about a month before mum passed away. And she came down to Brighton. I remember she was wearing this, these sparkly sequin leggings and knee high black boots. She just looked great. Tanya She sounds awesome. Simran She's so glam. Tanya Yeah, yeah, that's a good image to hold in your mind. Simran Yeah, and I did have... Yeah. Tanya You're smiling. Simran Yeah. And, I did her makeup Tanya You did her makeup? Simran I did her makeup for her and I did a hair for her. We went out, had some drinks, had a nice dinner, talked about my housemates. Tanya Were you proud to be out with her? Simran Yeah, Tanya With her looking like that and just being so cool? Simran Yeah. So, she only came up for a night and I remember the next day taking her to the trains... like walking her to the train station. We would have hugged. But, I just can't remember how that feels, I just can't remember. Which I'm quite upset about. And, then I remember walking home and it was really sunny. And, just getting back and thinking, "Oh, I just love that woman so much," we just had a great time together. And that's it, that's the last time I saw her. Tanya No clue. Simran Absolutely no idea. Tanya Do you think it was impulsive? Or do you think she planned it? Simran Planned it, completely planned it. Tanya Why do you say that? Simran When mum passed away, we all came back to Birmingham. We all congregated at the house and in the Sikh culture, all family congregate, at the person who's passed away, their home. And, everything apart from mine and my brother's room, had just been redecorated. And, she just put pictures everywhere of all the family, who knows what was going on in her mind? Who knows? But, I think that she wanted the people that were going to come to the house to see their faces on the wall... Tanya They were important. Simran Yeah. Tanya She'd kind of done her sort of mother touch on that. Simran Yeah. Tanya And, also she was leaving an environment for you, full of reminders of who you had. She didn't want you to feel alone. Which I presume she might have somehow felt in herself. Simran She did feel lonely. Tanya How do you know that? Simran She wrote a note to me, and she wrote a note to my brother, and I think she wrote a note to my dad. Tanya What did she say to you, if you don't mind sharing? You don't have to it is personal. Simran Nope, she said something along the lines of, I felt lonely for a long time. More or less. I've done what I've come here to do. I'm really proud of you. You keep doing what you're doing. I love you, lean on your brother, make sure you're there for him. The end. And, you can tell by my tone, I'm pissed off! Tanya Yeah, you're very pissed off. Tell me about that anger. Simran How dare she think that she's done? Like, what? I... I was 20, what are you doing? What do you mean, be there for my brother? Lean on your brother? No. I need to lean on you. You're my mum. What do you... What are you playing at? Tanya Yeah. And that's a difficult feeling, isn't it? Because you adore her. And, you miss her. But, you're so angry with her? Simran Yeah. Claudia Okay, I just want to pause because, I'd really like to ask, can you somehow transform the anger into, I don't mean this in a patronising way, into sympathy? Can she felt bad for her mum, that her mum had to make that choice, rather than angry with her? Tanya It's not a choice that I would ever want to say, is one that I would support. Of course not, my training, my job is to enable people to live well, despite whatever they are dealing with and, the impact on their mental health. I think yes, it is possible. Yeah, you feel compassion and sadness that the person that you love chose to do that. Because it's tragic. I mean, it's just tragic. But in order to get there, you've got to be given permission to process your anger and she's so angry, understandably so... Claudia Livid. But, it's when she got into, what was she thinking? I'm right here. Okay, let's return to your chat. I'm sorry for interrupting. Off you go. Tanya Is there a lack of information in that letter as well? Has that letter left you frustrated? Simran Yes. I wanted it answer, a definitive answer. Tanya To? Simran To why she did it. Tanya And, I also wonder whether the concept of loneliness is difficult for you, her daughter. So, I wonder whether it might have also left you feeling that, even you weren't enough to live for? You're nodding. But you look really cross. Anger is a really, really common emotion following a bereavement. And, then hugely amplified, following a bereavement via suicide. I think it's the anger that terrifies you. What do you feel about feeling angry with her? Simran I feel embarrassed. Why? Why'd you feel embarrassed? Tanya It was eight years ago. And I feel like, come on Sim. If it's not going to happen now, when I'm going to feel better. I can't tell you in my 30 years of clinical practice, how often I've met people like you. Eight years, 10 years, 15 years, 30 years who say the same thing. And the reason I'm saying that is because, I first of all want to normalise your experience and secondly tell you that it's got a name. And, it's called Complex Prolonged Grief. It's, it's a recognised presentation, if you like, of people who have been bereaved, but just feel stuck. It's complex, because it isn't just loss of a mother when you were young, but it's loss of a mother via her taking her own life. So, it's the layers of complexity. You lose your mum in the way that you did. You feel sad, but you feel so angry, because, unlike if she'd had an illness, this didn't have to happen. That's how you would... so you are completely stuck with these complex layers of conflicting feelings. That makes you normal. So the question is, what happens next? I want to ask you a question. How much do you understand about actually what happened? My senses you don't really get it. You don't really understand much of the detail of who found her, how she was found, all of that, that's not really been talked about. No one's telling you anything. Simran No. Tanya So, there's a lot that you don't understand. Simran Maybe they're protecting me from something, I don't really want to bring it up with them. I don't want to upset them. Tanya It's really crashed through your sense of people's resilience, hasn't it? Because you really thought your mum was resilient and, I think now you just feel like everything is that fragile. Simran Yeah. Tanya So, I think there's, there's two things I would say. Number one is, I think you need a more complete picture. But, I need to help you think about how you would get that. And the second thing is, I think today, before you leave you and I have to work out what you need to do to be able to accept that your mother has died. And, she died by taking her own life. Because I don't feel you've accepted that yet. Because, I don't think you want to and I totally understand. Tell me what you're thinking. You're sort of... I'm not sure, you're sure about this. Simran I think I'm a bit scared and bit worried about what they're going to tell me. Tanya In what sense? Simran I'm worried that my mum had this kind of whole other life that I didn't know about. Tanya She may have who knows. I mean, she may have she may not have but, whatever you hear, why would that have anything to do with the love that you know your mother felt for you? She loved you but, there was something in her that made her decide that she she couldn't live anymore. And, it wasn't really about you. How about we take a break? Simran Okay. Tanya There are two things I think that I think would be helpful for you to do. One is I think, if you were to ask the questions, to your dad, to your auntie's, to the police, you know. If you wanted to see the coroner's report, if you, you know, all of that stuff, see if you can write out what those questions are. And then, I think the second thing I'd like you to think about and write down is, in order to get to a place where you can live with the reality of how and when your mum died, or not say you won't feel sad about it for the rest of your life, but you won't feel emotionally exhausted and absolutely annihilated by it as you still do. Simran Yeah. Tanya What do you think needs to happen? Simran It's gonna be tricky. Tanya Absolutely. It might you might not be able to answer then that's my job, but... Simran Okay, I'll give it a go. Claudia I want to talk to you about Complex Prolonged Grief. Tanya Persistent, complex, prolonged, I mean, there's different ways that it's described. It's about grief that doesn't find a way towards resolution and acceptance. Which is a very bizarre thing to say because, you lose someone you love very much. This notion of acceptance feels completely perverse because... Claudia Like, it's never going to be fine. Tanya It's never going to be fine. But, it's going to be something that you can live with, a sad autobiographical memory. There'll be moments, anniversaries, birthdays, you know, where the loss of that person, the absence of that person at that time will be really sad, potentially overwhelming but, then life carries on. And, the memories of that person are predominantly around the good times, the fun times or if the relationship was good. So, for people who present with complex, in this sort of persistent, prolonged grief, it's where you can see that they are just stuck and they can't move past these very early grief reactions, shock, numbness, anger, despair. Claudia She was saying somebody, something will come up with a meeting and, she'll feel like she wants to cry. It almost sounded like an I've got no idea... Not PTSD, but I don't know how else to describe it. Tanya No, you're correct. Claudia Like she's still right there. Like, somebody just told her what's happened. Tanya That response is just an automatic, reflexive trauma response to whatever it is that she's hearing in that meeting. It's just something that triggers the pain and the memory. There is the need for some trauma informed grief work for Sim to help her move it from these sort of trauma areas of her brain, into autobiographical memory areas, where it's a memory she can live with at the moment, it's a memory she can't live with. Claudia What is so extraordinary, when you listen to Sim, is that there are so many gaps. Tanya My concern for Sim is, if she continues to not try and at least understand a bit more, she's not going to be able to then do the work, with support, to move into a place of acceptance. If there is something to know. It would be helpful for her. Claudia Yeah. Tanya Because, more context, more in formation, more knowledge, enables a greater sense of empowerment over how you manage that memory. Claudia Thank you so much. We'll get her in. Tanya You're such an articulate intelligent woman, why haven't you asked? Simran So, I don't want to bring up everything that happened eight years ago, because it's upsetting for me to think about what happened, to talk about what happened. So, why wouldn't it be upsetting for mum's best mates? Why wouldn't be upsetting my dad? Tanya What's wrong with getting upset? Simran There's nothing wrong with being upset. Tanya What do you link getting upset to? Simran I feel like I should have an answer and I don't Tanya You're worried that if you ask the questions and people get upset, that there is a heightened risk that they'll take their own life. Simran Yeah. Tanya And, that also that you might do the same. Simran Yes. Tanya I suppose one of the things I'm aware of with your mum, she didn't tell anyone, as far as you know. So, actually, the reality of talking, is that it reduces your risk of depression and potentially thinking about taking your own life rather than increases it. What are you thinking? Simran I'm just worried about what people are going to say? Tanya Yeah, I think that's actually what the issue is, what you're worried about? Simran So if I ask the question, right, so, can you give me kind of a broader picture as to what happened when you arrived at the house? What... did you see mum? And if you did, what did she look like? And, then I'm worried about the answer. And, then that's going to add to my grief and my upset. Tanya But, I'd put money on the fact you've already got that image in your head. Simran Yeah. I do. Do you want to know from the perspective of, if it's kind of gruesome, gory, horrible, just tragic, difficult stuff, do you want to know it? You have a choice whether to ask questions or not. But you also have a choice about the questions you do ask. So, when you ask a question, you could say, okay, there are things I feel I need to know. Because, it's the only way I can move on with my grief. But, there are some things that I don't want to know. So, I want to just tell you what I don't want to know. I'm not interested in what she looked like I'm not interested in... Yeah. Tanya My gut feeling is what you want to know is, did anybody really know why? And maybe there is a backstory. Maybe, she's asked her confidants not to tell her family, who knows? But, at least knowing that, is more than you know now. Simran I just all of a sudden feel very overwhelmed by it. Tanya Well, let's use a list then, lists are good when we feel overwhelmed, aren't they?. Because, I see you've written a list there, tell me what your list is, then let's have a look. Simran My two closest aunts, I would like to ask them, when was the last time you saw her? You know, was anything a little bit off? Like, I really would like to know that. But then I... Tanya But then I what? What did you stop yourself from saying? Simran I can't remember giving my mum a hug. So, if my auntie can't remember giving my mum a hug, then I don't want them to get upset about it. Tanya I don't think there's any way that you can ask questions about this tragic event without people being upset. This sounds like a really heartless question, but you'll get my point. What's wrong with having a conversation and being upset? What's wrong with that? What's the risk? Simran I just don't... I don't want to cause upset. Bu,t then I also don't want for them to be thinking, "oh god, I wonder why Sim has brought that up now? Eight years, nine years down the road." And, then they worry about me because I, I worry about everyone and I don't want them to worry about me. Tanya No, I know but, I think you worry about everyone because of how you lost your mum. I think worry for you, it's just your way of trying to retain some sense of control. If I keep thinking about everything, then nothing bad will happen. it's a funny superstitious way we can all have to manage risk in reality. But, it's interesting isn't it, when you're saying, if you choose to have these conversations as you prepare to have them, you presumably would think about explaining to them why you feel you need to have it. You now recognise you've got something called complex, persistent grief, prolonged grief. Your life is good, but there is just an emotional triggering that you still get about your mum and, how she died that you recognise probably eight years on isn't healthy in the sense that, it's emotionally exhausting you, as you've said. And, that you've had some consultation. And, it's been suggested that actually what you really need to be able to do is find out a little bit more. And that's why you're doing it. Simran Putting it like that. I think that would, that would help, wouldn't it? It would help. Yes. Tanya It may be that your first communication about this is you write to them. You write a card and say, look, I decided to write this because I wanted to give you time to think about it. I didn't just want to sort of doorstep you with this. Yeah? Simran Yeah. Tanya Or maybe talking to your therapist, you might say, I think I'd like to have a session and invite my aunt or my aunts, so that we could have a few sessions with you, just supporting us to have what I think is going to be a very difficult conversation. I've done that a lot with people I work with. If they were sitting here now and they could hear you saying but, I don't want to ask them because, I don't want to upset them. What would they say? Would they say, "Oh, thank you so much. Please don't ask because we really don't want to help you with your sadness and grief because, we just don't want to be upset. So cheers, love. Yeah, let's have a cup of tea." Would they say that? Simran No, they wouldn't. Tanya What would they say? Simran I think they would say, "what do you want to know?" Tanya Do you think that they might be relieved that you're asking? Simran Another reason I don't want to ask is because, I don't want to put them in a position where they'r... Tanya They might betray her confidence. Simran Yes. Yeah. Tanya I think that's incredibly sensitive of you and I think that would be amazing, if you... that was one of your context setting guidelines. Say "look, I appreciate there might be things you know that you promised Mum, you would only ever know. So I can live with that. I don't want you to betray my mother's confidence, but at least if I know there is, there is something that sits behind this, it doesn't feel so meaningless." I think it's something about that for you. It's something about the meaning of the event that you just cannot understand. I don't want to persuade you to have this conversation. Simran Okay. Tanya I just wanted to work with you a little bit around why you're avoiding it. And, I think we understand it's anxiety fueled and actually, when we started to unpick those reasons, none of them were really logical. Simran Yeah, you're right. Tanya And, I think in terms of techniques, if you're in a meeting or you're feeling overwhelmed, you can you know, for example, mindfulness based therapy or doing mindfulness is a very useful exercise. Just so that as the emotion comes up, you can kind of, you can feel okay, settling it, so I would like look at headspace or calm or one of those apps and really practice that. Simran Yeah. Tanya My question to you then sits around this second point I asked you to think about which is acceptance. Because something does have to change for you. Simran I'm worried, I'm worried. Tanya What you're worried about? Simran Because, if I don't know how to deal with how I'm feeling now, how am I going to deal with how to accept what happened? Tanya You need support just to kind of unpick all this. It needs to be someone who understands trauma, any reminders, maybe you watch something on telly or in a meeting. Simran Yeah. Tanya So that's trauma. So what we know is that trauma, memories, they're kind of located in one area of the limbic system, the emotion, so areas around emotion and memory in the brain... Simran Right. Tanya Fundamentally. In an area called the amygdala and trauma therapy is about actually moving those memories from a trauma storage area, to an autobiographical storage area. But, it's not going to be triggered in the way that you are so randomly triggered, because it's not going to be a trauma anymore. You have accepted the reality of it. Rather than, at the moment, you're still living in a heightened sense of hyper vigilance and fear. To the point that even having a conversation, potentially about getting a bit more details, so that you can sort of settle things a bit in your mind. You're even vigilant around that, causing such despair to the people that you love who are living, that they might take them at their own life. So, it just shows how traumatised you alre. Simran You hit the nail on the head when you said, I'm still triggered by it. Tanya Yeah. Simran I'll be watching something on telly, and I'll be really enjoying it. And, then there's a storyline about suicide and I think "you know what, I'm not going to watch that." Tanya One of my recent Times columns, I write for the Times every week, right. I write a column and the column is, people write to me about a mental health issue or whatever. And I answer it in the column. And I think Claude, an article I wrote a month ago, that was sent to me by a woman who was watching normal people, was so triggered by that storyline because her father had taken his own life. Simran It's not just me. Tanya It's not just you. Simran I think I'm getting upset. Because I genuinely thought it was just me. Tanya No, sweetheart. It's not just you. It's trauma. Oh, sweet. I can't even hug you. But I am here. Simran Sorry, can I have a minute? Is that okay? Sorry. Tanya Do you want me to leave? Simran No. Tanya Do you want to leave the room? Simran Yeah, sorry, is that okay? Tanya Please don't apologise, you take a walk and I will stay sitting here. Simran I'm so sorry. Tanya No, no, no, not at all. Not at all. That was so brave what you just did. You're so brave. And you're okay? Simran I just feel very overwhelmed all of a sudden. I don't know. Tanya I think you feel really sad. Simran Yeah. Yeah, I do feel quite sad. Tanya Yeah. But, I think what triggered you there quite appropriately, was that you had validation for all of this. It's not just you. It is so painful. It is so survivable. And now you're properly feeling and you're not anxious now are you? You feel much more relaxed, why do you think that is? Simran Because, it's not just me who has ever felt like this. And I think I needed to hear that. Tanya You're not alone, in terms of the experiences that you have following the death of your mum. And you're not alone with the fear of those feelings. Because, that's how we often manage experiences and feelings that are so dark. The only way we can deal with them, is just to not look at them. But, the problem is they keep banging on the bloody door. So, my advice to you would be, with regular sessions with a trauma-informed therapist, who can also include your aunts in those sessions, as and when you feel the time is right. Because, this is a family conversation as much as a conversation for you. Those moments of being randomly triggered will eventually stop because, you're placing the focus on these feelings in a context where, you can actually work out how you can learn to live with them. And you haven't broken. You were just overwhelmed. You left the room. You had a cry. You're okay. And I think something else has fallen into place for you. You're resilient. If your mum was here now, would you want to say to her? Simran Didn't you love me? I thought you loved me. I thought you cared. Tanya What do you think she would say? Simran I think she'd say, I do love you. But it wasn't about you. It wasn't about you. Tanya I think you're right. Simran I only think that now because of our conversation. If you were to ask me yesterday the same question, I have no idea what my answer would be. Tanya It was something for her that you don't understand and that's why you're stuck. What needs to happen now do you think going forward? Simran What I want to happen is I'd like to write a note to my aunts and potentially my Dad. Tanya Tell me about that note. What do you think you're going to say? Simran I think I need a broader picture of what happened but just like anything that you can tell me would be a great help because I would like some more clarity. Tanya Sounds good. I feel like you're now gonna move on. Simran I feel a lot lighter. Tanya Yeah. You're completely relaxed. Simran Yeah. Tanya And you're smiling. Simran I'm smiling because I didn't think I would feel like this so quickly, so thank you. Claudia, What would you say your story is now? Simran My mum passed away and it was really tragic and it's really painful to talk about it, and I don't know everything about it. I will find out as much as I can and I will be able to live with that. Claudia Brilliant. Simran Yeah. Claudia We wish you all the love and luck in the world. Simran I hope that was the right answer. Claudia Of course it was. Simran That's how I genuinely feel. Claudia That's fantastic. Thank you so much. Simran Thank you, no I really really appreciate it. Claudia Let's talk about Sim. She's on a path. I mean I'm not saying it's going to be easy because what happened to her was tragic. Tanya Yeah Claudia I'm so pleased she came and I think she's on her way. Do you feel like that? Tanya I think the reality is, I think she knew what she needed to do. I think she knew she needed to have more conversations and understand better. I think she just needed a space where she could be helped to give herself permission to do that. Claudia Yeah. Tanya Fear is what stops us doing what mostly we all know we need to do next. I always say this to you Claud I don't see my job as some great oracle with the sort of you know the holy grail of life and how you live it. I really feel it's about being able to listen and help people unpick the anxiety that often sits around the difficulty that they themselves have with doing whatever needs to happen next in terms of how they feel and their mental health and their wellbeing. As a clinical psychologist, as a therapist its about facilitating the next step in the process of change when people feel confused, feel lost or feel stuck. Claudia I feel like she is empowered now, to go and get some help and to start the journey. Is that wrong? Tanya No you're absolutely right, I mean the point is how can we in our lives learn to live with unexpected tragedy that could push our life down a different road but nevertheless we're still standing. How do we learn to live with that reality and the truth is she'll only learn to live with the reality when she allows herself to think about everything around that experience and it can stop being a trauma that leaps up and grabs her by the throat and a memory that she's processed and she can talk about and live with. Claudia You're brilliant. Tanya Thank you. Claudia I love doing this. Tanya Right lets go and have a cup of tea, come on. Claudia Just a quick note. If you subscribe to this, wherever you get your podcasts you will receive free new episodes as soon as they come out and please do rate, comment and share this with friends and family, we'd love you to spread the word. If you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this episode please see our programme notes for information about further support and advice. And if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here? please email, briefly describing your issue, to how@somethinelse.com. That's how@somethinelse.com, without the g. Next time we meet Jodie.... Jodie I did feel awful for my husband at the time but I don't think I felt guilty enough. Claudia This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the Assistant Producer is Grace Laiker, the Producer is Selina Ream and the Executive Producer is Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening. Transcribed by https://otter.ai