Claudia: [00:00:00] Please note this episode contains some emotional content, including discussion around child abuse and domestic violence, and may not be suitable for all listeners. 
John: [00:00:18] I've had feelings of feeling quite alone about this, you know, and, and I've never really seen it in that, that way. I feel like I've been angry for probably this last year.
Claudia: [00:00:28] Hello, and welcome to how did we get here with me Claudia Winkleman and my brilliant friend, clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron. We look at some of the difficulties people are facing and why they might feel stuck or unable to move forward. Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions whilst I'm listening in from another room. In the break and at the end, I asked Tanya a bit about her process and we explore the issues that are raised. This time we meet John who is a TV director and broadcast engineer. Last year. He experienced work burnout, panic attacks, and anxiety. After going home last Christmas, an incident occurred with his family and John realized that things have never really been right with his parents.
I think he's just kind of continued that legacy of, of what's happened in the past. What you're about to hear are the key parts of a onetime unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode.
Let's go and meet John.
John: [00:01:36] Nice to meet you. 
Claudia: [00:01:36] So lovely to meet you, John, tell me why are you here?
 The question 
John: [00:01:40] I've been asking myself is kind of, do I continue the relationship with my parents? 
Claudia: [00:01:45] That's a big question. 
John: [00:01:46] It's a big question. 
Claudia: [00:01:47] I mean, that's a bigger question than most. 
John: [00:01:49] Yes
therelationship with my dad has not been that great. I haven't talked to him since last Christmas. 
Claudia: [00:01:56] Describe him to me... 
John: [00:01:58] very strict, 
got a nasty temper. And, um, you know, sometimes he would be quite heavy-handed with me. And, um, basically I went home for Christmas, um, to my parents and, um, he tried to chuck me out the house. 
Claudia: [00:02:12] Just to be clear, did he physically 
John: [00:02:14] yeah. Grabbing hold of me, putting his finger in my face, being quite aggressive, saying things to me that that are quite upsetting.
And then the other, the other sad thing is also, I kind of, I questioned the relationship that I have with my mom. She's somebody that's kind of very much focused on how things look and, um, you know, kind of likes to say how she thinks and how she feels about things. And I, you know, I think for a very long time, I've kind of.
Gone along with what, what she's, um, saying, or, you know, her, her opinion. I think if I, if I didn't, um, you know, often she'd make me feel quite guilty. 
Claudia: [00:02:52] guilty about what?
John: [00:02:54] Um, guilty for not, not doing what she wants, basically growing up in that environment. I think it's really kind of taken its toll on me.
Sometimes I struggle with my, my self esteem, you know, especially in work, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. I, you know, like everything to be, you know, let go a certain way. And I think I get quite stressed out anxious about it. 
Claudia: [00:03:14] I feel so bad that. That happened to you? You've got a sibling, right? 
John: [00:03:18] I have, yes.
I've got a younger brother. 
Claudia: [00:03:20] Are you close with your brother? 
John: [00:03:21] Um, I'd like to think so, but um, still living with my parents at the moment, you know, over the last year, it's kind of, I've really taken a step back. It's been difficult, really. So my brother's really struggled with, with mental health and basically for two or three years, he used to have these weird episodes where he'd have.
His arms would be shaking. He'd have half of his face, like as if he was having a stroke. 
Claudia: [00:03:43] If somebody did something wrong?
John: [00:03:46] Just in, in, in times of stress yet high pressure or stress, you know, he saw a psychiatrist, he saw lots of doctors and everything. Nobody could find anything wrong. 
Claudia: [00:03:55] And what does your mom do when your dad is aggressive or violent?
John: [00:04:02] Not much really. You know, it's bizarre. It's only like now that I kind of think all the things that have happened in the past, it shouldn't have really happened. And, and, but my mom's kind of made it. You're like it's normal 
Claudia: [00:04:13] when you were, how old? 
John: [00:04:14] Like a little boy, you know, little boy, you know, as a T a teenager.
And even as, you know, like an 18 year old, you know, there's been times when my dad's been awful with me. You know, 
Claudia: [00:04:23] And to see apologized to now, you can try it now. 
John: [00:04:25] Never, never, never apologizes, never thinks is in the wrong. And, and, and often, you know, when I've tried to talk with my mom and my dad, it's almost being, you know, let's not talk about this.
Claudia: [00:04:37] So he gets very angry. He sees red. 
John: [00:04:39] Yes. Yes. 
Claudia: [00:04:40] Does that happen to you? 
John: [00:04:42] No, no. 
Claudia: [00:04:43] Is your dad capable of being happy there? Lots of happy times you has Sunday lunch there. Everyone's laughing and smiling. Is it, or do you have to tiptoe? 
John: [00:04:52] Yes, it's very much like that. You know, there was one period of time when I was living with him in the same house for two years.
And literally I was about 17, 18, you know, didn't really do that much. I kept very quiet when I was in the house. It was very quiet. I felt like I was walking on eggshells because I didn't want to upset him. I didn't want to say something that would make him angry and you know, it could be that anything really, you know, there was never any kind of rules to what would make him mad or, or that kind of thing.
Claudia: [00:05:17] And you were living with him. Alone. Where was your mom? 
John: [00:05:19] So my mom and my brother were in France, so we moved across there, but my dad used to work in the UK, so he would kind of come back and forth and then it kind of ended up that I went back and I was with my dad. And then, so it was kind of, we were always traveling different, you know, different places.
Claudia: [00:05:33] Does he treat. Your brother is the same way he treats you?
 No so he's never 
John: [00:05:36] been heavy handed with my brother, always me. I mean, I'm so I'm the oldest. My brother is seven years younger than me. Um, I mean, there has been the odd occasion, but, but generally now, and, and even with my mom, you know, not really, it's always kind of 
you're 
Claudia: [00:05:49] the punch bag.
John: [00:05:50] I'm the punch bag. Yeah. Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:05:52] Tanya will come in. She's extraordinary. But I just have one more question, which is, you said that you could be a perfectionist at work. How does that manifest itself when you're at work? If something doesn't go your way. What happens? 
John: [00:06:05] I don't think I. Kind of voice my stress, if anything, I'd probably, I just keep everything inside of myself, you know?
And you probably said the same thing about, you know, this, the family situation. I think it's been that for a long time, a bit like pressure cooker, keeping everything inside. But you know, I really do think that probably this trying to do everything right, and it probably stems from an unhealthy place.
Probably, you know, some of the experiences I've had as a child. 
Claudia: [00:06:31] Well, thank you so much for coming. 
John: [00:06:32] Thank you.
I've had therapy sessions throughout the year, kind of CBT 
Tanya: [00:06:41] you've had cognitive behavior 
therapy? ok
John: [00:06:42] Yeah. I was kind of off work due to stress, had really bad panic attacks. So I had CBT around that and that kind of started the discussion and it kind of started me thinking about, you know, what it was like when I was younger and I, you know, I, so I've not been speaking to my dad.
I'm still have a kind of relationship with my mom. Um, you know, I talked on the phone, maybe. Probably once every three weeks, something like that, you know, when this whole episode happened at Christmas, you know, as soon as I come back, it would be almost like nothing's happened. 
Tanya: [00:07:11] Denial.
John: [00:07:11] Denial. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:07:13] It sounds like you're saying over the years when your father has been angry and at times violent.
John: [00:07:18] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:07:19] It sounds like you're saying that. Your mother by doing nothing has felt complicit. 
John: [00:07:24] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:07:24] Right. So that's quite, quite, that's quite complicated and challenging as well in terms of how you manage that relationship moving forward. 
John: [00:07:32] Yes. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:07:33] What's this brought up for you cause you're looking thoughtful and tearful and sad, 
John: [00:07:38] you know, I guess part of me, I would like to have a healthy family life, you know, you know, I'd like to have a good relationship with my mom, my dad, 
Tanya: [00:07:46] but something at Christmas.
Changed. What perhaps was an ideal idea you had of family. Reality crashed in at that moment with your father? It just was almost like the final straw. 
John: [00:08:03] Yeah, 
Tanya: [00:08:03] there's a lot, John isn't there. Um, you know, first of all, I want to say what I feel is we need to be very clear about. The, the sort of terms of reference that we're going to follow today.
In other words, what, what are we trying to achieve? Because I think you've come in saying a combination of what happened at Christmas, my panic attacks. I'm now seeing things in a different way. And I think you're saying, can you help me just work out everything? 
John: [00:08:34] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:08:35] Right. That's not going to be possible today.
John: [00:08:37] No. 
Tanya: [00:08:39] So perhaps what's. More important is that you and I spend a bit of time just trying to nail down what could be the first step for you to be able to achieve the resolution in your mind that you're looking for? Because I feel like this will be a quite a long piece of work for you, probably with a psychotherapist, somebody who's got training in systemic family therapy.
So, because I think you do need to have a series of conversations to be able to look at this idealized. Sense of family you had. And now this reality check at Christmas. When your dad got very physically violent with you. 
Claudia: [00:09:19] At this 
point, I'd like to step in and ask something. After five minutes you looked at John and you said I would like you to go and have more work.
Some things aren't just a matter of new perspective. Some things need longer. 
Tanya: [00:09:32] There are people whose experiences have left them with kind of multiple. Challenges and not to say that other people we've talked to haven't brought multiple challenges, but it is clearer often with the people that we're working with, what it is that they're specifically asking for.
Claudia: [00:09:55] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:09:56] And I suppose what I wanted to say to him up front was today. I want to do everything I can to enable you to leave with a perspective. That makes you feel like you've moved on, but I do feel like there is a lot of work ahead for you and support to really just unpack the narrative. And I think the narrative for him is, is so bound up with anxiety, but on so many levels, it's really just.
I think my task today is to help him see that and support him to find the right kind of therapy, not counseling, not CBT he's had that. And I think it's been helpful, but I think he needs long term psychotherapy to sit with someone regularly who can really hear him. Express the anguish and frustration he's felt because there are so many different areas of his life that have been impacted by his childhood.
Claudia: [00:11:01] Okay. Let's go back to the chat. 
Tanya: [00:11:04] What do you think needs to be really focused on today 
John: [00:11:10] for me to be able to process this and kind of move forward. Do I need to stop the contact with my. My parents, they've never really acknowledged what's happened in the past. They kind of deny things that have been said.
Tanya: [00:11:23] Would it be important for you that they do acknowledge. As in if, unless they acknowledge, I cannot have ongoing contact with them, 
John: [00:11:33] kind of one of the things that the, one of the therapists that I saw kind of talked about, you know, writing a letter to them saying the things that you'd like to say to your mom, to your dad, because you have the choice, you can just write it and, and, you know, kind of.
Set it on fire and let it go. Or you could actually send that to my parents, but I've always kind of, nothing seems to get through. So actually me saying something to them, you know, I think I'd be going down a dead road. 
Tanya: [00:11:59] I think you're right. When you say you're not going to get. An answer on that. If anything, it triggers your father to become more aggressive and your mother to become more complicit in denial.
John: [00:12:10] Absolutely. 
Tanya: [00:12:11] So in terms of your own mental health and wellbeing, as much as we're all for open communication and et cetera, et cetera. 
John: [00:12:19] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:12:21] Actually in your situation, it's probably going to do more harm than good. If you keep banging at the door that I think you and I both agree is never going to open.
John: [00:12:31] Do you know what I think is stopping me from, from kind of taking that step and maybe taking a really big step back guilt.
Tanya: [00:12:38] Tell me about guilt. 
John: [00:12:40] I think my, you know, I think this is where my mom kind of Excel. She's very good at being able to say things that would make me feel guilty. And it's almost like I don't want to upset my mom and I don't know why. 
Tanya: [00:12:52] I think that's absolutely. Critical to our conversation.
I'm sorry to interrupt you. Can I just make an interjection here? It seems to me the, what might help you and maybe we could do today would be for you to try and understand for yourself why your parents have and continue to behave in the way that they do. If you understand why. I'm not saying it's going to enable you to say, Oh, well that was okay then, because quite frankly, it's not okay for you as a child to be pushed up against a wall.
And the things that you have experienced that is absolutely not. Okay. Right. However, understanding it doesn't condone behavior. But it could enable you to be able to find the answers for yourself without having to be continually frustrated by their lack of engagement. 
John: [00:13:56] Yes. Yes. 
Tanya: [00:13:57] And I think your mother's complicity is also this guilt thing.
She puts you in a position where you then think, I shouldn't be feeling like this. I can't be asking these questions. So you're absolutely stuck between a rock and a hard place. 
John: [00:14:11] Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:14:13] What are your hypotheses around? What's driving their behavior. 
John: [00:14:17] So I know on my dad's side, you know, he's kind of taught this.
I mean, this is one of the things that you would often say to me, you've never had it as bad as I've had it. I think he's talked about belts in the past, from what I hear to my dad's mom and dad, they used to be at each others throats. So my grandfather, he used to beat my, my dad and his brothers up when they weren't behaving.
And so I get this impression that growing up in that household, it must've been. You know how horrible, 
Tanya: [00:14:46] significant violence towards the children and significant domestic violence 
John: [00:14:51] for him. That's, that's normal. And that's, that's what life is like. And I think he's just kind of continued that legacy of, of what's happened in the past.
Tanya: [00:15:00] What you're saying to me is from the little, I know my father's childhood was extremely violent, both to him and his siblings. 
John: [00:15:11] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:15:12] It's really interesting also that you have kind of remembered this comment your father has made to you, which is yes, you you've never had it that bad. 
John: [00:15:24] If anything, I think as a child, I felt like him saying that, that's fine.
Then, you know, 
Tanya: [00:15:29] it is not fine to lay a hand on a child. Right. I mean, I am unequivocal about that, but what I want to just also suggest to you, and we know this from. Research into the issue of the impact of violence in childhood, on people growing up is that it can cause a skew in one's perception of violence.
Therefore he may see what he has been doing to you through your childhood. As an acceptable level of corporal punishment. 
John: [00:16:04] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:16:05] From a parent to a child, his benchmark is so different. He may be thinking, I'm not beating him with a belt. I'm not beating his mother up. 
John: [00:16:15] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:16:16] What's he talking about? So he may think that this is acceptable, which based on what he's experienced in his own childhood, you can kind of get why he would think that again, Before a thousand people write in saying, but you're excusing his behavior.
I am not excusing what you have experienced. 
John: [00:16:35] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:16:36] Not at all. 
John: [00:16:38] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:16:38] We are trying to understand it. 
John: [00:16:40] The 
Tanya: [00:16:41] reality is I think it 
John: [00:16:42] said lasting effects on me lasting effects on my brother. And there's no kind of 
Tanya: [00:16:47] absolutely
John: [00:16:48] recognition of that. 
Tanya: [00:16:49] Do you think he ever would recognize it? 
John: [00:16:54] Honestly, no. 
Tanya: [00:16:55] Right.
And why do you think that is? 
John: [00:16:59] I think probably 
the reason why he is the way that it is. I think it's the little boy inside of him. I think he's tried to normalize what he experienced as a, as a, as a kid. And I think he. Wants to be strong, wants to be. And that's his way of seeing it and anybody that says anything different, you know, he just won't accept it.
Part of me, feel sorry for my dad. You know, that, that part of me would love him to go and talk to somebody and maybe, you know, talk about these things. But I don't think you'd the reality is I don't think my dad would, he sees it in his head, the way that he sees it. And, um, you know, that, that's it, that's it really?
Tanya: [00:17:33] John, you are an astute compassionate, man. I need to say that to you. 
John: [00:17:38] Thank you. 
Tanya: [00:17:39] You're now saying actually I could also feel sorry for him again, not because we're excusing his behavior. It is wholly unacceptable. However, your now saying, I'm trying to see it from my dad's position. And when you look at my dad, that's kind of sad.
John: [00:17:59] It is. It is 
Tanya: [00:18:00] That child in your father who you said needed to normalize it in order for it to be okay. 
John: [00:18:08] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:18:09] Let's think about that. That is about a need to find a narrative that can enable him to feel in control because you know this when an adult is losing. 
John: [00:18:22] Yes. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:18:24] What do you think drives his anger?
John: [00:18:26] A lack of control. 
Tanya: [00:18:27] If we feel out of control. What are we experiencing 
John: [00:18:31] as in panic? 
Tanya: [00:18:32] Panic
John: [00:18:33] yeah. 
Tanya: [00:18:33] When you had it to a panic attack and went to A&E
 yes. 
Did you feel in control or out? 
John: [00:18:38] Yeah. Completely out of control. What's going to happen to me. 
Tanya: [00:18:42] Am I having a heart attack? Am I going mad? Your mind is racing. Your heart is racing.
You can't get enough breath in your lungs complete and utter panic, which is fundamentally. Anxiety. 
John: [00:18:56] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:18:57] So taking this back to your dad? 
John: [00:18:59] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:19:01] If we're going to sort of say, why does John's father behave in the way he does? We would probably pin it around childhood trauma and anxiety. 
John: [00:19:15] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:19:16] Are there any other behaviors your father might show.
Maybe not anger behaviors, but any other behaviors in terms of how he likes life to be that show a high need for things to be in control. Is he a very tidy person? Does he have issues? 
John: [00:19:32] Yes. So, I mean, I remember that, you know, um, when I was kind of living with him, he used to spend hours and hours tidying the house, and then there was kind of, you know, if you make any dirt, there's going to be consequences.
Tanya: [00:19:43] What he'd get cross, if things 
John: [00:19:45] yes. 
Tanya: [00:19:45] What, to kind of an extreme level
John: [00:19:49] , to an extreme, to an extreme level. 
Tanya: [00:19:51] Right? So these things all link up, perhaps you've never seen that. So your father was a tightly coiled spring. 
John: [00:19:58] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:19:59] In terms of his anxiety, if things weren't done in the way that they had needed to be done to help him feel like he was in control, it would trigger 
huge bouts of anxiety, which would then result in anger and aggression.
John: [00:20:15] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:20:17] Do you understand how anxiety and anger are linked? 
John: [00:20:20] The stress response, the 
Tanya: [00:20:22] hundred percent 
John: [00:20:22] of the fight flight anxiety is the fight flight response. 
Tanya: [00:20:27] It's an inbuilt primitive response to threat. 
John: [00:20:30] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:20:31] If you and I are sitting here on our squeaky sofas, having a nice chat and somebody suddenly rushes in and they look threatening, 
John: [00:20:38] yes, 
Tanya: [00:20:39] we've got to switch physiologically and psychologically to a different state in order to protect ourselves.
And fundamentally we're either going to run. Or we're going to fight. 
John: [00:20:50] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:20:51] So your father's response to anxiety has been fight. And now here you are with your panic attacks saying I also do anxiety. So it feels like through the male line, at least of your family. 
John: [00:21:07] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:21:08] Anxiety is a big issue. 
John: [00:21:10] Yes.
Tanya: [00:21:26] Let's talk about your mum then. 
John: [00:21:27] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:21:28] Because she doesn't do fight. If anxiety is fight or flight, describe her behavior 
John: [00:21:36] freeze. 
Tanya: [00:21:37] But also flight, isn't it? Because flight is avoidance. 
John: [00:21:41] Yeah. Yeah, 
of course. Of course. You know, so like some of the things that we've seen with my, my brother, you know, they've been really traumatic.
So when he was having his episodes of fits and things that looked like, um, like he was having a stroke and the shaking and the, and also my brother has episodes of anger and rage. And when you look at him, It's just like looking at my dad. It's very bizarre. And to talk about these things as a family, my mom doesn't want to go there.
She does not want to go there. She doesn't want to talk about things. I think maybe she's scared of what might happen if she does go there. Yeah. I think very much my mom is running away from what's going on around her and, and, um, yeah. 
Tanya: [00:22:31] So both your parents struggle with anxiety. But they exhibit in an, in a, in a very 
different way, 
John: [00:22:39] yes.
You 
know, last Christmas, I tried to open up a discussion with my parents and it did not go well, you know, they didn't want to talk about things and if anything, they just made me feel like it was my problem. 
Tanya: [00:22:49] When you ask them for help and support. 
John: [00:22:52] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:22:53] What are you triggering in them? 
John: [00:22:54] Their anxiety. 
Tanya: [00:22:56] Because with your mother, you're asking her to look at what she's not looking at.
John: [00:23:00] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:23:01] And if you sit there going dad, 
John: [00:23:04] He 
gets angry 
Tanya: [00:23:05] because you make him feel 
John: [00:23:08] a loss of control. 
Tanya: [00:23:09] Exactly. why are you laughing?
John: [00:23:13] I've had feelings of feeling quite alone about this, you know, and, and I've never really seen it in that, that way. I feel like I've been angry for probably this last year. So it's almost like the anger is kind of gone.
Tanya: [00:23:24] why do you 
think that is? Because you understand? 
John: [00:23:26] Cause I understand, 
Tanya: [00:23:27] but you're still gonna feel sad. So the sadness really is. That. Yes, we understand. But it doesn't mean to say it hasn't impacted on you. Yeah. But I wonder whether the thing, the biggest challenge for you is the, you sometimes see bits of your parents in you and that really freaks you out.
Has anything ever happened where you've kind of stood back and thought, why, why am I doing this? What is going on 
John: [00:23:55] one of my ex girlfriends when I broke up with her. I think I panicked a lot. I struggled coming to terms with her kind of moving on. Um, 
Tanya: [00:24:04] and did that cause you to behave in ways that 
John: [00:24:06] yes. Yeah.
I was sending lots of messages and, um, kind of wanting her to come back and, and, um, 
Tanya: [00:24:12] you couldn't hear her say no, as you step back now and look at it, cause obviously you've moved on since then. Do you see that as that sort of. Anxiety lack of controlness, which is quite reminiscent of your father. 
John: [00:24:29] I think there's this need inside of me for love.
It would, you know, I I'd just love to be able to kind of not be so needy and not be so kind of, um, just be happy with myself
Tanya: [00:24:44] in the second part of our conversation. We can talk about you and anxiety because yeah. I wonder whether part of what makes it very challenging for you to manage your anxiety is a, they won't talk about it, but a B I think it's because you are possibly quite afraid of seeing in yourself aspects of.
Your dad. I can see that you could be not OCD, but perfectionist. 
John: [00:25:19] Yes.
Tanya: [00:25:20] I could see that. You can sometimes feel overwhelmed by anger. 
John: [00:25:24] Yeah. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:25:26] And that anger means, for example, with the ex-girlfriend you just don't know when to stop. 
John: [00:25:30] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:25:31] You keep pushing, you keep pushing. 
John: [00:25:33] Yeah. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:25:35] I can see the, you. Are very easily afraid that things are out of control.
John: [00:25:45] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:25:46] Moving forward. What would you like us to focus on? Would you like us to focus on anger, which I think you really struggle with and I think you do need some support around. 
John: [00:25:56] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:25:57] Would you like us to focus on your perfectionism or would you like us just to talk more generally about your relationship?
With the family. Now that you've got this understanding, would you like me to actually focus on helping you make a decision around how you engage moving forward with your family? Cause that is something you did bring here. 
John: [00:26:20] If anything, it was your last point that I think that's the, that's the big, that's the one that I really want to, what do I do next?
Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:26:30] Okay, well, here's a, here's a thought your previous counselor said write a letter to your parents. 
John: [00:26:34] Yeah, 
Tanya: [00:26:36] but I don't think that it was specific enough. And I think, I think you could write a different letter to your parents based on our conversation today. I think you could write a letter to your parents that isn't necessarily telling them how much they hurt you and asking them why I feel now you could write a letter telling them.
You get why it happened. 
John: [00:26:59] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:27:00] And this is what the situation is. 
John: [00:27:03] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:27:03] And actually understanding that has enabled you to feel less angry with them. 
John: [00:27:09] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:27:10] I feel that it's quite a useful shift in narrative because then once you write that letter, as you're writing that letter in our break, your final paragraph should probably start with.
I'm now going to tell you that I have decided to not remain in contact, remain in contact. You have to fill that in. 
John: [00:27:33] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:27:34] And this is why
Claudia: [00:27:50] you mentioned it. And I know lots of people are interested in the way families work and repeated behavior. When you were talking about. Learned behavior or, or the line of abuse, if you like, there's a better way of saying 
Tanya: [00:28:03] transgenerational. So it's when you know, these behaviors just kind of move from one generation to the next, to the next to the next.
So if you look for example, anger, you know, you take a biological, a psychological and a social look at it. Biologically, is there an underlying predisposition, you know, anxiety can be inherited. And I'd say probably yes, you can see an inheritance John from his father, his father, probably from his father and so on and so forth.
So you can see that inheritance of anger, which can be expressed as aggression, aggression. Comes from anger comes from anxiety, anxiety being fight or flight. So that's, that's the biology bit. The psycho psychological bit is the impact of the trauma that John's father experienced himself as a recipient of violence.
It sounds like extreme violence from his own father. So that's the psychological legacy is going to have an impact. And also from a social perspective, it's learned behavior. Yeah. It's what I have seen, what I've experienced, how anger gets displayed. And often I'll work with people who will have had these kinds of experiences in childhood and come in high levels of anguish because they say, I never want it to be like my parent.
I don't want to be that angry parent. I'm so angry. So it's that sense of, we are often what we see. Or what we experience. So we need time and support to be able to heal that part of ourselves in order not to replicate it. 
Claudia: [00:29:40] But talk to me about the link between anxiety and anger. 
Tanya: [00:29:43] So anxiety is an umbrella term for psychological experience that is fundamentally an in built primitive response to threat.
You know, we're out Hunter gathering, a herd of something comes charging across a plane at us. We either fight it or we run, you know, that's kind of threat management, but obviously threats come in many shapes and sizes and they also come in terms of emotion, stress, relationships. These can all threaten us.
It doesn't have to be something actually physically looking like it's going to threaten our safety and wellbeing. It's the fight or flight response, right? That's that's what physiologically we are designed to do. 
Claudia: [00:30:28] And how does that make you angry? 
Tanya: [00:30:30] Because one of the responses is fight. 
Claudia: [00:30:33] Oh, I see. Right? I apologize.
Tanya: [00:30:36] No, no, no, no, no. I need to be clear. So somebody comes in to a room we're in and threatens us. We might throw a chair at them. We might punch them. You know, there are a number of ways in which we will respond to the threat that we're perceiving. So you put it in the context of John's father. He's a man who is highly anxious.
Perfectionist sounds a bit OCD, tidiness cleanliness loses, loses it. If it's not like that, it's all about control probably because he has felt an acute lack of control as a child, domestic violence, physical violence towards him and his brothers from his father. So that need for control. Then if it is threatened or punctured in any way, 
Claudia: [00:31:19] He rages 
Tanya: [00:31:20] because he becomes super anxious.
Right? Claud, I know you love my homework. 
Claudia: [00:31:26] I do. 
Tanya: [00:31:27] So for the end of our chat, there's a Dostoevsky quote about understanding. You you'll know it when you find it? 
Claudia: [00:31:33] Yeah, 
Tanya: [00:31:33] because that's the point of what we're doing here today. 
Claudia: [00:31:36] Okay. I'll get him in.
Tanya: [00:31:45] Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:31:46] Let's hear the letter.
John: [00:31:48] Dear Mum and dad. 
I know I've been very distant lately and I wanted to let you know that I'm doing well. I've been trying to understand the anxiety. I feel with the assistance of professional help. I've come to realize that anxiety is a common theme within our family. And I feel that together as a team, we are not doing anything to sort it out.
Dad, your anxiety manifests itself through anger and violence. And this most probably comes from your experiences as a child. I'm sorry that this happened to you. Mum, your anxiety manifests itself by avoiding difficult situations, walking away from problems. You can face your problems, mum, you don't need to be afraid.
What I mentioned above makes it very difficult for me to have a healthy, stable relationship with you. And so this letter is me saying that I'd like to take a step back from the family and stop contact for a short while. I hope within time, we can find each other again, in a healthier and happier place.
Love John. 
Tanya: [00:32:57] Wow. 
John: [00:32:59] Yeah. And it just came straight out, you know, 
Tanya: [00:33:02] you've made your decision. 
John: [00:33:04] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:33:05] Tell me how you feel in this moment. 
John: [00:33:08] Honestly, when I wrote it, I just had a feeling of peace, you know, with no anxiety and, um, a feeling of control and, um, I feel that making that choice, I can now very much concentrate on myself, take a step back and kind of work through with the help of somebody to, you know, kind of move forwards.
Tanya: [00:33:32] I, 100% agree with you. 
John: [00:33:35] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:33:36] But I think what you've done is you've acknowledged, you said to me earlier when we chatted, I'm very needy. I think what you recognize now is your parents probably are not the people that can meet those needs. So for you to feel happier and healthier within yourself. 
John: [00:33:54] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:33:54] We need to think about where you can get those needs met for you. so then moving forward. Not just with your relationship with your family, whatever that looks like, but actually relationships with others in your life and a partner. I hope for you. You can have those relationships without expecting them to meet your needs of needing to be in control and those relationships will be healthier and without contact with your family. Do you have the social networks that can be there to support you? Do you have friends? People you're close to. I mean, Christmas is coming up, whatever that's going to look like in a pandemic.
John: [00:34:37] We've already made plans, so, yeah. Yeah. So we're all kind of staying where we are, you know, we're all staying at home.
Uh, we're not spending time with our families, so yeah. We've kind of got it all have. Yeah. And then obviously I'd like to find some kind of. Professional that also I can, 
Tanya: [00:34:54] I'll help you work out what that should look like. I want it to be someone with a really kind of long-term psychotherapy training in working with people.
Who've had childhoods of abuse and who have anxiety as a result of that. And I. I think there is probably an underlying predisposition towards anxiety. I would explore with your GP some medication, an SSRI. So it's an antidepressant. That's very good for people who feel anxious. So if you think of therapy as digging out the foundations of a house  because we've got to look at, what's kind of there in order to make the house feel more solid. Sometimes as you dig out foundations, you've got to put some scaffolding around the house just while you're doing that exploratory excavation work. And my concern for you, if I was working with you would be that if I was your psychotherapist and we were really digging into the violence that you've experienced as a child, it could trigger quite high levels of anxiety and therefore it might be worth exploring.
A medication that will just. Give you enough of a buffer so that you can look at the, the trauma that you've experienced. Yes. Without it crashing the house down, if you see what I mean. 
John: [00:36:20] Yeah. absolutely fantastic. So 
Tanya: [00:36:21] are there any other questions before we finish? 
John: [00:36:24] No. Thank you. Thank you for seeing me, honestly.
Thank you so much. You're a miracle worker. 
Tanya: [00:36:30] People like me. We're only as good as the people we work with.
Claudia: [00:36:37] When you leave here and you phone a friend and you organize Christmas, which will be outside and only two people or whatever it is, what are your headlines? You, you understand them more? Yes. You have decided. Very bravely and powerfully yes. To step away. 
John: [00:36:55] And that I'm okay with that. 
Claudia: [00:36:57] And you're okay with that because you're going to look after you.
John: [00:37:00] Yeah. we'll have a nice time with my friends at Christmas and everything. And, um, You know, I'm going to go and get help for myself and, and kind of move on, move forwards and, and, you know, hope that one day we can come together and you know, maybe, maybe that letter might have her.
I don't know. It might, 
Claudia: [00:37:19] but don't expect it. 
John: [00:37:19] Yeah, I know. I know. That's the thing, isn't it. But it might, it might, they might, you know, go and seek help for themselves. Maybe, maybe, maybe. 
Claudia: [00:37:28] What I'd also like you to do, but Tanya might tell me this is wrong. I'd like you to photograph that letter and just text it to your brother.
John: [00:37:35] Yes. 
Claudia: [00:37:36] So he doesn't feel. Like you've just disappeared. 
John: [00:37:39] Yes. Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:37:40] And because 
they won't share it 
with him as far as I can. 
John: [00:37:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:37:44] Just so he knows. 
John: [00:37:45] Yeah. No, thank you. That's very thoughtful. Thank you. Thank you. 
Claudia: [00:37:48] Thank you for coming. 
John: [00:37:49] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Claudia: [00:38:01] How fantastic that John came across you. I really mean that because 
Tanya: [00:38:08] Claude start again say us. 
Claudia: [00:38:10] I'm not, of course I'm not starting again saying us. I brought nothing to the table. I am um, talk to me about, that letter blew my, there was a wind machine suddenly in front of my face. I just went, it was, and he said to me, at the end, he said, I've never been good at letter writing.
I find it difficult.
Tanya: [00:38:33] I mean, I thought that was, uh, just such a mature way of looking at such a complicated and painful situation that he he's in with his family, 
Claudia: [00:38:44] the empathy in the letter. I couldn't believe. As well when he says, I'm really sorry. I know that happened to you. He's saying I see you. I'm going to look after me, but I see, I know what this is.
You might not. That's absolutely fine. I don't expect you to 
Tanya: [00:38:58] that's so impressive. Don't you think? 
Claudia: [00:39:00] Yeah. Ton, you know? Yeah. You gave me homework. You wanted me to find that Dostoevsky quote, you gave me idea. And you said, basically, this is what is happening today. 
Tanya: [00:39:09] So did you find it? 
Claudia: [00:39:11] Yeah, nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer.
Nothing is more difficult than to understand him. 
Tanya: [00:39:17] There you go. So how do you take that quote and put it in what's happened today? 
Claudia: [00:39:22] What his father did was terrible, but to understand why he did it, I feel has given him some respite. As you say it doesn't make it fine, but understanding just going, Oh, I see what I love about John, even though he might understand, he hasn't immediately gone back in going, Oh, okay.
Well I'll just let it continue. He has enough self preservation to protect himself. So he's put a little wall. Not permanent, but he's just going to look after him and his friends and get the help he needs. Now he understands an understanding is of course the most difficult thing of all. 
Tanya: [00:39:59] Yeah. And I think the moment in his letter, when he said to his father, this is what you've done, and this is why I think you did it.
And then he said, and I'm sorry that it has happened to you. I thought that was. Extraordinary. And to some degree, I think it encapsulates what that quote is saying. 
Claudia: [00:40:22] Thank you to Dostoevsky, I think is how we end. I fancied a boy when I was 17. He liked Russian literature. So I would walk around holding Dostoevsky just in case he ever turned around didn't work.
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it's more 
Tom: [00:41:16] almost as a family joke is it's. It's kind of talked about at the dinner table.
Oh yeah. You're on the spectrum type of thing. 
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