Claudia: Please note there are some adult themes and strong language within this podcast that may not be suitable for everyone.
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Tom: Yeah, I felt excluded. I think they used to call me Marvin, the paranoid Android from the Hitchhiker's galaxy because they said I talked like a robot. 
Intro
Claudia: Hello, and welcome to how did we get here?
[00:00:26] The podcast where me, Claudia Winkleman and my absolutely extraordinary friend clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron, look at some of the difficulties that people face either themselves or with those closest to them. Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions whilst I'm listening in from another room. 
[00:00:44] In the break and at the end, I ask Tan a bit about her process and we explore the issues that are raised. This time we meet Tom who is 51, is married and has three children. Tom has had the feeling most of his life, that he is somehow different. Various people have told him that he is on the ASD spectrum and as high functioning Aspergers.
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Tom: [00:01:06] I guess there’s still a certain perception that if you have a diagnosable level of ASD or that than your there's something missing, you know, you're not quote unquote normal. 
Claudia: What you're about to hear the key parts of a one-time unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode.
[00:01:31] Let's go and meet Tom
Claudia: Tom why are you here?
Tom: [00:01:36] The main one, I guess, is that for, for quite a few years now, I've kind of suspected that I have some level of, of ASD or what they used to call Aspergers, I guess. My, my wife, who is actually a therapist has also suggested to me that, that I may have that. And so has, uh, my stepmother who is also a therapist.
[00:01:58] Yeah. I guess to be honest, I didn't really think much of it, I think, Oh, well maybe, maybe not, but it wasn't affecting my life that much. Um, but then more recently, I guess, over the last couple of years, um, they've kind of suggested, have you thought about whether, whether your daughter may have some level of ASD traits as well?
[00:02:17] Having researched it a bit, it kind of seemed like. Especially in young girls, they, they can kind of hide it very well. Should I get diagnosed or not? What does it mean? Do I want to be labeled or not.
Claudia: When you say the people around you have mentioned it? Did they say sort of in an off hand or is it more, I don't mean persistent, but is it: Tom [00:02:39] This is serious. We think you should be tested. Um, how seriously is everyone in the family been taking it? If that makes sense. 
Tom: It's more almost as a family joke is it's kind of talked about at the dinner table. Yeah. Oh yeah. You're on the spectrum type of thing. It kind of weighs on my mind a little bit that people are saying that.
[00:02:58] And it would just, I guess, partly it would just be interesting to know
Claudia: sure
Tom: But then on the other hand, I've, I've kind of known about this for years. I've never really done anything about it. And so I thought, well maybe, maybe now I should do something about it. 
Claudia: What are the things that you do that make them say that?
Tom: [00:03:16] I find all social situations, very difficult, especially with people I've never met before. And I, I just kind of don't do small talk. I think I've always, even since I was a kid, I've always felt like I was a little bit outside the group in social situations. I felt like it wasn't natural for me to, to interact in the same way that everyone else seemed to be interacting with each other.
Claudia: [00:03:40] Let's talk about your daughter. How old is she? 
Tom: Uh, she's 16. Yeah. She has had a few wobbles. Like she did have to change schools a few years ago. She was having a lot of trouble in the social circle that she was in which she didn't seem to be able to resolve. The other things are things like little kind of, um, meltdowns, if we change the schedule.
Claudia: [00:04:01] Yeah. She, part of the conversation around the dinner table, which is look at dad or. Look at your daughter, you know, you guys need to be tested. Is she part of that conversation? 
Tom: Not in that way, no. I mean, she may have been there a few times when it's been, let's say subtly alluded to, but not openly in front of her that I remember, no.
[00:04:23] And I have not discussed this with her. 
Claudia: No. Okay. And so you've come here today to basically ask Tan whether you. Should it be tested and just how you feel about that? 
Tom: Yes. Should I get diagnosed and would it even make any difference if I was.
Claudia: Well, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. 
Tom: You're welcome.
Tanya: [00:04:52] You were saying to Claudia earlier, it's kind of been the sort of dinner table jokes when people bring it up. What are they joking about? What are they saying? What are they noticing about you that would make your wife and others say you might be on the autistic spectrum? 
Tom: Things like if I'm in a meeting at work, I don't pick up the right cues as to when, when I can talk and restarting a conversation that everyone else has finished.
[00:05:21] Five minutes later. Um, I tend to be very black and white and very fixed in my routine. So I'll go off doing repetitive things. I mean, not like I've got to watch the entire series of this program, even if I'm not enjoying it, because once you start to just once I started, I can't stop. Yeah. 
Tanya: You're saying you just like structure routine order clarity.
[00:05:47] That's how life works best for you. 
Tom: If even if somebody says, Oh, can you go down the shops and get some milk? Of course, I'm quite happy to go at it and get some milk. But in just in the moment-
Tanya: it’s a gear change
Tom: I have a real kind of flash of, that's not part of my plan for the next hour. Um, I was going to ask you actually, just before you said that, how are you with spontaneity when you know, we were going to do that, we're not, we're going to do this instead.
[00:06:12] Is that the stuff that makes you kind of go (gasps) take a breath-
Tom: Yes. Exactly. Even if I don't say anything, my wife can see it on my face, that I've had a reaction to what she's suggesting that we do. 
Tanya: How has it impacted on social relationships? Has it caused you to struggle? 
Tom: It probably contributed to the fact that my first marriage failed.
[00:06:33] I don't think it impacts that much on my current relationship with my wife, because. It was kind of something that we had already discussed and that she was aware of all along. If I'm totally honest with it's impacted on friendships in the sense that I don't really have any close friendships with anyone apart from, you know, family members.
[00:06:54] So, I mean, I have some friends in my life, but they tend to come and go. And I wouldn't say that I've ever had a very close friendship with anybody outside of somebody I've been in a relationship with or someone who's who's part of the family. 
Tanya: And why is that, do you think, is there something about the, the process of, of, of social interaction and forming social bonds that you struggle with?
Tom: [00:07:21] I've never felt like I needed to have close friendships outside of family relationships and, and, um, and you know, my wife.
Tanya: So you're content and self-sufficient in that sense?
Tom: Sometimes it kind of troubles me, I think, how come I haven't got any really close friends? How come I don't go down the pub with my mates every Saturday, like quote unquote normal people.
[00:07:44] But I think it's maybe partly, just because I know that that's what people are supposed to do.
Tanya: Right. But it's not actually troubling. 
Tom: Yes. 
Tanya: Okay. Okay. And in terms of the fact, I mean, we all have to sometimes socially interact don't we, sometimes it can be fun. Sometimes it can be (intake of breath) cringy. When you found yourself in those situations, how do you cope?
Tom: If it's a kind of social situation with friends or acquaintances and it's happening in the evening, [00:08:16] unfortunately, I tend to cope by using alcohol to be quite honest with you. 
Tanya: So alcohol is a social lubricant
Tom: Yes so I struggled very much with going to those kinds of events. If, if I know that I'm driving or whatever, and I can't drink
Tanya: do you drink a lot or how much alcohol helps and also how does alcohol help?
Tom: [00:08:36] I would say on those occasions when I drink, I tend to drink quite a lot, but I don't drink every day. I probably tend to use it more as a kind of social crutch. It seems to let me feel more relaxed and I can talk to people then I've at least I feel like I'm coming across, Um, I'm getting through some of those kinds of social, that social awkwardness that I feel.
Tanya: When you were younger from a social [00:09:03] sort of development point of view. Did you, as a child feel different on the outside, did you feel included? Were you ever teased or worse? How were things then? 
Tom: Yeah, I felt excluded. I think they used to call me Marvin, the paranoid Android from the Hitchhiker's galaxy because they said I talk like a robot. [00:09:27] I try to make an effort. To put more expression in my voice, but even in recent years, occasionally people say to me that I have quite a monotone, uh, voice and I've, I, I, I'm not sure, but I've heard that that's also something that's often observed in people who have quite strong ASD er traits. 
Tanya: Yes. That must've been really difficult, really difficult [00:09:48] And I wonder where the adolescents was difficult for you and everybody was sort of. Going to parties and pairing up and doing all that stuff. Did you struggle with that or did you find your ways to manage that time of your life? 
Tom: Yes I did struggle with it and I was at a poise only private school until I was 16.
[00:10:06] I kind of insisted on leaving that school at the beginning of the six form, partly because I'd found a group of friends outside that school who went to a different school. And I think that was around the time I probably was kind of starting to discover alcohol as well, which maybe was helping a little bit with some of the social situations.
[00:10:26] But, uh, certainly when I was in the private school, I hated it really to be quite honest with you. I, I didn't have a good time at all.
Tanya: but you're happy in the marriage now?
Tom: Yeah. We love each other 
Tanya: And she gets you. Doesn't it? It sounds like she gets you. 
Tom: Yeah. It's sometimes it kind of surprises me because one of the questions I could ask is, well, if you thought I have, if you thought I have ASD, why did you marry me?
[00:10:51] I guess she loves me for who I am. To me sometimes some of those traits can be, can be positive as well. You know? So. Okay. 
Tanya: It's interesting you say that. Why wouldn't someone with ASD be married? Why wouldn't someone want to marry someone with ASD? What, what were you sort of alluding to there? 
Tanya: I guess there's still a certain perception that if you have a diagnosable level of ASD or that, then your there's something missing, you know, you're not quote unquote normal.
[00:11:19] Maybe what I just said shows that maybe a little bit, I do feel that way, but-
Tanya: Well, you've certainly felt different. In your life, particularly in social situations. So you certainly would have identified that. Autistic spectrum disorder is a neuro developmental disability. That's what it is understood as being, and you know, it is a spectrum, so people can be at any level on the spectrum and [00:11:48] for some people, the neurodevelopmental aspects of ASD are very impactful in terms of daily life and daily functioning and for others less so. It's interesting the word disability. So it's a neurodevelopmental disability because a lot of people that I, I know I work with who are on the autistic spectrum would [00:12:13] also argue, and I, I argue this as well. That it is a difference. So there's a huge movement now, which I think it's been a long time coming and needs to be really, really celebrated around neurodiversity, around saying we're not all wired in the same way. And it's important because it sits around issues like discrimination and prejudice, lack of social opportunities, lack of understanding, lack, lack of connectedness.
[00:12:49] Therefore people who have neurodevelopmental differences, people on the autistic spectrum would celebrate neurodiversity and champion themselves as being neuro atypical. Living in a world predominantly of neurotypicals, which will be challenging. These are our strengths. This is what we add to the world.
[00:13:13] And I think that's quite an important way to frame it. How do you, how do you see that from what I've just said? 
Tom: I wouldn't want to see myself as somehow disabled, but different as you said. And, and you know, that that could be some strengths that I have. That may be a lot of other people don't have.
Claudia: Claude here. [00:13:32] I just want to clarify something. Talk to me about how many people are on the spectrum. And many people might be on the spectrum, but have not been diagnosed.
Tanya: It's estimated that there's about 700,000 people on the autism spectrum in the UK. So that would work out to be more than one in a hundred. People per population.
[00:13:51] If you include families, I suppose autism would be seen to be part of the daily life for about 2.8 million people. You know, there is a concern that these sorts of neurodevelopmental issues are not picked up early enough children on the autistic spectrum who clearly display a number of autistic spectrum type behaviors.
[00:14:14] Would probably be picked up earlier, but we know, for example, there are quite a few women on the autistic spectrum who really don't get dark diagnosed till much, much later on in their life, because as females, they can mask it better through social skills and so on and so forth. And also there are people like Tom, if he is on the autistic spectrum who are, you know, really high functioning and they are getting on with their life [00:14:39] and so it doesn't really. Present itself in a way that anyone would say, Hmm, maybe you should have a look at that. The problem I think with late diagnosis is the I've certainly met many teenagers and young adults where the diagnosis has come quite late. And by that stage, maybe, you know, they have been punished for behaviors that now we recognize where to do with [00:15:06] their neurodevelopmental issues. Maybe they have felt different and ostracized, and maybe they have been teased and bullied. So it gets back to this idea of inclusivity and celebrating diversity. It's not to diagnose people to label them and shove them off in the, in the corner of the room. It's about acknowledging [00:15:28] where everybody is coming from in a way that gives them the best chance in life to be understood and nurtured in the way that's right for them. 
Claudia: Got it. Thanks back to the conversation. 
Tanya: How would it help you to potentially have confirmation that you were on the autistic spectrum? Would it be helpful? 
Tom: My, I guess my instinctive answer is yes, I think so.
[00:15:53] I think it would also help me to feel more comforted about the life that I've had and the childhood that I had, you know, in school kids can be very cruel. So if you see, if somebody seems to be different than they're going to get teased, I mean, that's just the way life is. 
Tanya: I think it might not make the pain of those memories less, but it would explain something to you is what you're saying.
Tom: [00:16:33] In the past I've sometimes said to myself, well, I'm just a failure or I'm just, there must be something there's something wrong with me. Yeah, well, I'm just not as good as other people. 
Tanya: Um, whereas now it's like, Oh, I'm different. 
Tom: This is one of the things that I wonder about, about getting diagnosed is because I think there's a kind of fantasy part of me that thinks it will be a kind of [00:16:56] jumping off point to make lots of big improvements in my life because now I know what's going on and-
Tanya: A caution for you about making this decision would be that, should you be given a diagnosis? You would get to a point where you think great. Now I can be the best super version of myself, whereas actually that's not really the point. [00:17:17] The point is your good enough as you are, because if it adds to your sense of self value, As in wow I’ve done really well. Absolutely great. If it takes away from your sense of self value, probably not a good idea. And I think one of the big things I need you to think about, and I want you to take a bit of a break with me, just to think about is expectations following a diagnosis.
[00:17:48] Are you hoping it may change things? If so, what are you looking to change. It would be really useful if you could do that sort of more micro analysis of diagnosis, pros and cons, and then literally break down each one so that I have all those questions. We can really look at them together. The second question I have, which I'd like you to reflect on, and then we could talk about is.
[00:18:18] People on the autistic spectrum are more likely to struggle with anxiety than people who are not on the autistic spectrum. 40% people on the spectrum versus 15% in the general population. So I wonder if you could do these two things. I wonder if there is a way you could timeline your mental health. If there have been times in your life, you have had periods of anxiety or depression, if you don't mind sharing that with me. 
Tom: Certainly yeah
Tanya: [00:18:44] And also if you do a bigger piece of work or kind of pros and cons analysis of a diagnosis in terms of what that would give you. How does that sound?
Tom: Sounds good.
Claudia: [00:19:10] Let's talk about Tom. Who, um, even though he, second guesses himself is brilliant company. Excellent communicator. And I found that chat absolutely compelling. Tom came in here with an actual question. So really wanting for you both to work out an answer, which is whether he should be tested to see if he is on the spectrum.
[00:19:38] You've given him a task. You know, I love your tasks. You haven't pushed him in either way. Do you know which way it's going to go? And does it matter? Does he have to come to a conclusion by the end. 
Tanya: A pros and cons list is, is helpful for partic- particularly for somebody like him, who he kinda likes, you know, order and lists and that sort of thing.
[00:19:58] I think it would enable him to explain. To me and to him, to both of us where he can see the advantages, but also the disadvantages. And, and then to really look at those disadvantages, because I think if there are things that could potentially not be helpful for him, then why would you do it? So I think I just need to get us a little bit more detail around A, does this sit around him being someone who struggles with anxiety and procrastination generally, and B [00:20:29] within the detail of the decision-making. Is there anything that might red flags an issue that could suggest it wouldn't be helpful for him.
Claudia: Well I can't wait to hear the lest I will go and get him
Tanya: [00:20:47] a diagnosis can be life-changing let's consider it in terms of how life-changing it could be. Tell me what you did in our break. 
Tom: So you had asked me to. Foot down pros and cons, I guess, of, of, of reasons whether I would like, or whether I think I should get a diagnosis or not. You mentioned a mental health history of my mental health. [00:21:10] So I made a few notes about that.
Tanya: Would it be okay if we started there because people who are neuro atypical can. And do struggle more with mental health difficulties, particularly anxiety, which if experienced over a long period of time can then lead to depression. Does that resonate with you? Have you had periods of anxiety?
Tom: [00:21:32] It definitely does. When I originally separated from my ex wife. I guess I cau- I, um, I pretty much had what you might describe as a breakdown. And I ended up on antidepressants for, I think a couple of years, it really kind of hit me for six at the time. So it's not surprising that I felt quite depressed at that time.
Tanya: [00:21:52] A hundred percent. Yeah. 
Tom: For about, probably for about the last 10 or 12 years, I’ve kind of bored my wife, Sally saying that I'm not very happy in my work. I don't really enjoy it that much. And yet here I am 10 years later still doing the same job. So it's, it's again, another one of those kind of procrastinations, which.
[00:22:12] Maybe linked to having ASD tendencies, or maybe it's just something different. I don't know. 
Tanya: But if you, if it, for somebody who has a need for routine and structure, uncertainty, ASD, or not, ASD contemplating changing one's job just feels huge and provokes a level of anxiety and procrastination generally comes from [00:22:40] a feeling of anxiety. Anxiety is the fight flight or freeze response flight being runaway, being avoid, procrastination being avoid, hence the link between procrastination and anxiety. So it makes sense. You've described the depression. You felt. When your first marriage broke down and you're right. I mean, it feels a sort of normal response.
[00:23:05] What about anxiety though? 
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that's kind of what I was coming to is I wouldn't say that there has been times in my life when I've had huge. Kind of waves of anxiety, but I've, I would more describe it as I, I almost have a continuous, low level anxiety all the time. Things that wouldn't be any of, any consequences at all to a lot of people, to me trigger some trigger a- a [00:23:30] a level of anxiety, you know, just like things like going, asking for help in a shop, or if I've got, if I'm going on holiday, I'll be kind of anxious about it for days before. If I'm going on a business trip, I still feel kind of anxious about going to the airport and being there on time. And I don't sleep the night before.
Tanya: [00:23:50] Um, So it's just this sort of sense of feeling daunted by the task ahead.
Tom: I have an, uh, a continuous kind of low level feeling that something really bad is just about to happen. 
Tanya: Yes. That, that sense of vigilance and anxiety.
Tom: I think, as I've got older, I've. Learn to recognize it in myself and kind of override it. [00:24:13] But the feeling is still there inside, you know.
Tanya: I mean, you you've spoken about alcohol for social, social anxiety. Um, it doesn't sound to me like you abuse alcohol. What other strategies do you think you've developed as you've got older to help with this low level of anxiety that you experience on a daily basis?
Tom: [00:24:34] My wife will tease me that when I'm in a social situations, I have like a, uh, I dunno how to describe it. A playbook of opening phrases, almost like I'm, I'm reciting them as if I'm reciting a learned script rather than, um-
Tanya: something spontaneous 
Tom: Rather than something that's happening instinctively or naturally.
Tanya: [00:24:55] Do you use any other strategies to manage anxiety? I mean, you look. Fit. Do you use exercise as a way of managing anxiety or? 
Tom: Yes. Yeah. I I go out running quite a bit. I tend to like running on my own. So it's almost like a meditation. 
Tanya: Yeah. I was going to ask you about that. Yes. How, what, how would you describe the meditative effect of running?
Tom: [00:25:18] I listened to some music or a podcast or something like that, and it takes a way the worry of what's going to happen that day. I mean, it takes some minutes or 10 minutes of running to get into that kind of state, but I almost always find that after I've been running for 10 or 20 minutes, I feel better.
Tanya: [00:25:36] Yeah. Yes. Plus at a neurochemical level endorphins, et cetera, that that's a major benefit. And it sounds like you've got a good relationship with your wife. Are you able to talk about worries. Are you able to articulate or do you tend to hold onto them? And she has to kind of. Prize them out. So how does that work?
Tom: [00:25:58] She, she kind of knows me well enough to see what's going on. And she almost instinctively knows before it even happens that I'm going to be stressed about something because an events come up or we're just about to go on holiday or-
Tom: She really knows you doesn't she? And she really loves you for who you are. [00:26:16] Yes. I don't know what to do without her. Yeah. 
Tanya: Do you tell her that?
Tom: Um, Not often enough. Well, she's going to hear it now. So you've covered that one off. So that's good. There's many ways we can manage anxiety. And it's interesting. One of the things that you've sort of talked to me about is that sort of S sort of sense of foreboding, that sort of almost sense of internal, catastrophization… [00:26:39] I just wonder whether actually what could be helpful for you would be mindfulness. Cognitive behavior therapy, something that would enable you to find more of an internal voice that you can use to almost talk yourself down in those moments, internal sort of cognitive self-soothing mechanisms that you can almost talk back to that anxious, more rigid part of yourself. [00:27:10] I think you'd like cognitive behavior therapy because it comes from a, a kind of very sort of logical practical solution focused premise. It's sort of built around the idea that the way we think affects how we feel and the way we feel affects how we behave. And, and, you know, if the thoughts are fraught with anxiety than the feeling will be anxiety and the behavior is possibly avoidance or panic or not sleeping or whatever, and it sort of works to understand why.
[00:27:45] As individuals, we might have these automatic negative thoughts, anxious thoughts in the case of anxiety, thoughts around depression, obviously in the case of depression. And so it also helps us consider the beliefs that we all carry that give rise to this thinking. And if you hold beliefs around order and routine and structure equals [00:28:08] Safety then obviously anything that doesn't feel it's within the order or the routine or the structure or anything that's unpredictable feels unsafe. And what mindfulness based cognitive therapist will be able to do is teach you various cognitive and mindfulness-based skills to work with that moment.
[00:28:31] When you can feel the thoughts, race in and the anxiety kick up. So I would really recommend you explore that. 
Tom: Yeah
Tanya: What might be helpful is if you look at, for example, ted.com, you know, they do the big Ted talks and there are some amazing sort of leaders in the field of cognitive therapy, therapy, mindfulness based concept, behavior therapy, that sort of stuff that have done some really good talks that you can [00:28:56] watch. So just from a research point of view, just to get a sense of whether it sounds like something that would be helpful for you, that might be a good place to start.
Tom: Yeah. I'll take a look at those.
Tanya: But we get back to the fundamental question. To know or not to know, tell me what you came up with. 
Tom: So in terms of pros, I guess one is just to feel validated feelings that I formed in the last years or whatever, uh, a true, and that there's an explanation for, for the way my life has unfolded [00:29:26] in some ways I think the second one is rarely. Around my daughter, I'd be extremely wary about going in to a 16 year old child saying, Hey, I think you might have X, Y, Z, but, but if I am able to talk about it as a kind of, uh, from, from my experience, maybe at some point in the future, she would kind of say, Hey [00:29:46] Yeah. I'm a bit like that too. 
Tanya: I think that stuff's really important. 
Tom: Yeah. If I had a diagnosis, I kind of feel like I would want to be quite open about it in terms of my employer and everything. I feel like somehow I could, I'm not sure exactly how, but I feel like I could help by saying, Hey, I've, I've made it this far. 
Tanya: [00:30:06] You’re also giving a voice to feelings that other people might have. You're giving visibility to things that people don't really talk about because obviously being neuro atypical in a neuro-typical world and a neuro-typical workplace. Causes huge amounts of anxiety. What are the cons to the diagnosis? 
Tom: I’m somehow allowing myself to be labeled. [00:30:28] And it's a lot of people think of it as you were talking about earlier as a disability. I don't think there's anyone involved in my life that would, would take it that way. I mean, I'm sure there are strangers who would but that's the same with anything. 
Tanya: Right. So I agree, but then, uh, you know, That's about a lack of understanding, a lack of knowledge dare I say, for some people prejudice and ignorance, and you would decide to do it. [00:30:53] Maybe I want to educate them or maybe I won't. 
Tom: The, the other thing I've put here is a con is what if I, what if I go and have a diagnosis test? And then they, they say, well, no, you don't have any ASD. Uh, you're not diagnosed with anything. Then I'm left kind of feeling well. Okay. So what, what have I been struggling with all this time then?
Tanya: [00:31:14] Yeah. I would say that from what you've described, definitely those feel like autistic spectrum traits, whether or not that then kind of comes together to hit the diagnostic threshold. I don't know, you know, I just think find the right people, you know, go to the national autistic society, look at their website, look at the, I mean, they have a directory of practitioners and things, but just make sure you're, you're, you're really sort of with people who [00:31:46] have the right training and the right background and they know what they're asking and what they're asking is reliable and valid in terms of evidence-base. Tom: Yeah
Tanya: I think it makes a lot of sense for me, for you to go to neurodevelopmental experts, to have that discussion. The conclusion is the conclusion.
[00:32:08] And remember it is a threshold, but I don't think that's the main point here. The main point is for you to just talk this stuff through in a really forensic way, with experts who can validate your experiences. From the pros and cons exercise, the pros are powerful, powerful for you. Powerful field daughter, in terms of how you say it could empower you to have conversations with her about you, that might be helpful for her, and also powerful in terms of your idea of wanting to be a champion for neurodiversity. [00:32:44] If that is what you find out about yourself, the cons that you've raised. I felt that we were able to challenge them quite effectively and actually reframe them in a way that they weren't really cons particularly they were just anxieties that you hold. But if you reframe them, I really don't think they would be a problem in and of themselves.
[00:33:10] But I think having broken it down together, I think. It's pretty clear that it is going to be more helpful for you than not. And you're going into it with a set of expectations that feel very realistic.
Tom: yeah. I agree.
Tanya: I think I want to finish by saying to you that whatever the outcome of an assessment that you have, I think it doesn't change the fact that I'm sitting with a, a man who is honest about himself, articulate and open about [00:33:45] the challenges that he has faced and faces without shame, which I respect… is now a loving father, a loving husband. Successful in his career. You have my respect. 
Tom: Thank you. That's very kind of you to say
Claudia: [00:34:09] You've made your decision. Do you feel good about it? 
Tom: Yes. Yeah. Now, now I've made it kind of in the open in front of the whole world. I can't kind of go back on it. I can't procrastinate anymore. I've got to do it now. Right. Otherwise I'll look a bit silly. So, so yeah. 
Claudia: And for you as well, sitting at opposite, I sense a feeling of relief.
[00:34:29] Do you feel? 
Tom: Yes. Yeah, definitely. 
Claudia: Well, I'm so happy you came in. Normally Slack, please stay in touch with us. Tell us what happened. I'll let you know,
[00:34:50] Tom. That was brilliant. The sense of relief I got. From sitting opposite him. 
Tanya: It felt like that, didn't it? I mean, it's interesting for me to get from you what your sense is because obviously you're the sort of bread in the sandwich you're sort of on the outside at the beginning and at the end and. 
Claudia: There was a marked difference there, it was relief.
[00:35:10] I really think he was genuinely 50 50. You talked to him about mindfulness, which you've mentioned before on this podcast. How could it help him?
Tanya: If you're neuro atypical and you are living in a neuro-typical world, then obviously the world doesn't really function and have expectations that are in line with your own.
[00:35:30] So that is going to cause anxiety because you're going to feel different. Unsure. Some people have said to me, I just. I almost feel like I don't know what to do, even though I look like I should know what to do. That's a horrible, horrible, horrible feeling. The mindfulness cognitive. Behavior therapy.
[00:35:47] That's much more about looking at how he can actually work inside his own mind to almost talk back to the anxiety bully if you like that pops up. And it's a range of approaches, including mindfulness being able to sort of ground your mind, be able to stay in the present moment. Focus in terms of breathing.
[00:36:10] So that you can sort of shut out all that anxiety sort of racing thinking, and just really think very carefully about here and now and how you can put one foot in front of another. And the cognitive behavior therapy would be very much around how he can find an alternative voice that can. He can sort of self sooth.
[00:36:30] He can reassure himself, he can sort of talk to himself, talk his anxiety down, challenge his anxiety. He can learn to block the anxious thoughts. And that's where mindfulness, cognitive behavior therapy shows really good outcomes for people with anxiety. 
Claudia: What I loved about him is he said, but I'd quite like to help people.
Tanya: Yeah, wasn’t that great.
Claudia: [00:36:50] That's so lovely. Yeah. He's a kind man. 
Tanya: Yes. 
Claudia: And whatever the outcome, the idea that he was going to take, whatever that information was and then go on and help others felt like a powerful end to his story. 
Tanya: What I love about mental health and neurodiversity champions is that they are saying, yep, this is me. [00:37:12] I recognize it. I value it. I'm happy to share the challenges I face, but I'm also happy to say I can live with it. And so can you, and that, I think. It's priceless. It's, it's more important than anything people like me can do.
Claudia: Tom. Let's do some early police up the corridor. Why? Just as an official, close to Tom.
Tanya: [00:37:32] Okay. Well, can you do it and can I just go and put the kettle on? 
Claudia: Well, I'm 48. I'm not doing it either. 
Tanya: Let’s just have tea. 
Claudia: Please remember to rate, share, and subscribe this podcast to spread the word. If you've been affected by any issues in this episode, please see our programme notes for information about further support and advice.
[00:37:54] And if you're interested in taking parts in future episodes of How Did We Get Here, please email briefly describing a ratio to how@somethinelse.com that's how@somethinelse.com without the G.
Next time we meet Rian: I'm 43 now. And I think, Oh, for goodness sakes. When am I going to get over this? It's been over 25 years of [00:38:21] this being my first thought, every time I wake up in the morning, how heavy I am.
This podcast was made by the team at something else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Grace Laiker, the producer is Selina Ream, and the executive producer is Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman.
[00:38:40] Thank you so much for listening.