Claudia:: [00:00:00] Please note this episode contains some emotional content adult issues and strong language, which may not be suitable for all listeners.
Jodie:: [00:00:17] I don't think I felt guilty enough.
Claudia:: [00:00:21] Hello, and welcome to how did we get here, where me Claudia Winkleman  and my wonderful friend, clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron, look at some of the difficulties people are facing with those closest to them.
Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions whilst I'm listening in from another room. In the break. And at the end, I ask Tanya a bit about her process and we explore the issues that are raised. This time we meet Jody who had an affair whilst engaged to be married. She broke off the affair, returned to her fiance and they have a son, but then the marriage fell apart and she returned to her lover.  She feels that she let her son down and destroyed the family unit. 
Jodie:: [00:01:01] And as I'm saying this, I've just got a horrible feeling because I feel as though what I did makes me like her in a sense.
Claudia:: [00:01:11] What you're about to hear are the key parts of a onetime unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode.
Let's go and meet Jody.
Oh my goodness. Hello.
Jodie, thank you so much for coming in. Tell me why you're here. 
Jodie:: [00:01:43] I have got masses of guilt. Do you know what? It's a really hard thing to talk about because I know it's hugely polarizing and I know that a lot of people are very negative about this type of situation. 
Claudia:: [00:01:55] Okay. Number one, let me just say. No, don't, don't come in here with that.
Your here you are in a lovely, safe place. You can talk to me when there is nobody and also the people listening. There is no judgment. I promise you, I sense that you've got enough judgment for everyone. Why do you feel guilty? 
Jodie:: [00:02:13] I had an affair whilst I was married and during that time I had my son. With my husband, after I had him, I decided that I was going to leave and, and pursue this, this other person.
So the situation is that I'm no longer with my son's father. And I just feel tremendous amounts of guilt over what I've done to my son. 
Claudia:: [00:02:43] He's two, right?  Jack.
Jodie:: [00:02:45] Yeah. We split
up essentially when he was three months old. Okay. But having said that we have remained very close since we still lived together for the first year of his life, although we had split up, but we really tried to do it the best way possible. So it's not to. Affect, you know, my son in those really formative. 
Claudia:: [00:03:07] So you kind of already, you are doing a brilliant job because it sounds to me like you are co-parenting. Yes. I mean, how often does this guilt 
Jodie:: [00:03:16] that all creeps in when he's with his dad and I missing him and I'm kind of feeling like.
You know, why does it have to be like this? I want to be with him every day. And I think that's mainly, I think when he's with me, I try really hard to focus on me and him. And that's our time because I've got time when I'm not with him. 
Claudia:: [00:03:39] I'm just throwing this out there. Maybe if you'd have stayed in an unhappy relationship with his dad, you'd be doing anything to get away from the situation you'd be on your phone.
You'd be watching you be going out with girlfriends. And this feels like you are fully committed to being with him. If the relationship had worked out with the man you had an affair with, would you feel guilty?
Jodie:: [00:04:04] Do you know what? I think I'd probably feel even more guilty, which maybe wasn't what you're expecting me to say. 
Claudia:: [00:04:10] I find it.....I mean, I'm upset that I now have to leave. I'm livid, but it's good for you. Cause you get to speak to the genius. That is the professor. Thank you so much for coming in.
Tanya:: [00:04:26] What are you hoping for?
Jodie:: [00:04:29] I feel inside myself that I'm still a bit stuck in that place. Yes. Um, it sounds really flippant, but be able to put it a bit more down to a life experience and realize what I've learned and just be able to. Move forward and not feel stuck in it. 
Tanya:: [00:04:48] Interesting. So there's two things I would ask you on that.
First of all, you said I'm stuck in that place. Just, just be really clear. So I understand what is that place? 
Jodie:: [00:04:56] The time, time when this was all happening and I made the very difficult decision, but I'm also stuck knowing the hurt though caused. 
Tanya:: [00:05:09] So you're stuck in a place of regret. 
Jodie:: [00:05:13] Yeah. 
Tanya:: [00:05:15] And shame. I feel 
Jodie:: [00:05:17] hugely, you know?
Yes. I've talked to people about it cause I am an open and honest person, but at the same time, you know, it's not something I still feel like I need to hide it. 
Tanya:: [00:05:29] So if you were talking to a friend in your situation and your situation sounds like your son has two happy parents who have created a really stable co-parenting relationship.
So Jack's doing. Good in his little life. Yeah. You and your ex Jack's biological father have a good relationship, a clear routine for him when you're together. You're good together. Jack's not dealing with parents with conflict and animosity resentment. So we're thinking about you talking to this friend, right?
This hypothetical friend. So that's, that's her life and then she's. Also saying, but I can't forgive myself. I've I'm full of guilt, full of shame, but I need to move on. What would you say to that friend?
Jodie:: [00:06:18] I think being happy and moving forward is obviously in ultimately be beneficial to your child. 
Tanya:: [00:06:25] So you would say to her, you need to move on because.
Your son is fine. The setup around him is fantastic. I mean, probably better than for, for a lot of children who have two parents living together in a desperately unhappy, and the children have to witness all sorts of unhappiness and conflicts around them. And you would say to this hypothetical friend, It's so important that you find a way to forgive yourself and move on, because if you don't then what your child loses is something in you that isn't whole, that isn't complete because you're still holding onto the guilt and shame.
So you know that, so the question is, why is it so difficult for you to do it? That's the bit I think you and I have to work out. So it feels like there's something behind all of this that sits deep inside of you. The. Makes it very difficult for you to say I have to learn from my actions, but I also have to move forward in my life.
Yeah. It's often the case that people find it difficult to move on also because there is guilt about not being guilty. Yes, you're nodding. 
Jodie:: [00:07:37] Yeah, that resonates with me. I did feel awful for my husband at the time, but I, I don't think I felt guilty enough. 
Tanya:: [00:07:48] You know, the thing about an affair is it's a sort of fantasy unreal relationship.
It's quite adolescent in that way. Isn't it? And it kind of hits every receptor in our brain. That's about pleasure. And obviously that then can obliterate any other rational contemplation of what, what is being done. So it feels quite understandable that at the time you didn't really feel guilty, it just happens.
And it's interesting that now it's all stopped. As you reflect on it. You're saying now I feel a crushing sense of guilt, but then you feel. Appalled with yourself that you didn't feel that guilt at the time, but you were too busy swimming in dopamine in your brain, I suppose to even consider that. But I was also talking about something else.
What you're describing to me reminds me a lot of people who I meet, who have been bereaved and they come in sort of years after the loss of their significant other. And they are absolutely stuck in their grief. And one of the issues that can come up is the fact that if I stop grieving, actively grieving, feeling the pain of my grief, then does it mean that it didn't matter?
So that's what I was wondering with you. Whether if you do forgive yourself and move on, do you feel ashamed that somehow you're going, Oh, well, it's fine then do you feel that somehow you have to keep doing some. Almost like penance for what happened. And if you were to stop feeling guilt, if you are able to accept and move on that somehow you'd be letting yourself off the hook and that doesn't sit well with you.
Jodie:: [00:09:42] Yeah. I mean, that, that that's exactly it. Um, but when you said that, one of the things that came to mind is. Watching my ex husband, you know how amazing he is as a person and that he really didn't deserve that. And I get the same for my son watching them both together. I feel like if I, if I let that go, then it means that I didn't care about whatever, 
Tanya:: [00:10:12] but that's, but that's exactly what I think you are struggling with.
Cause it did matter and it does matter. And it's something that. You think about a lot and you reflect on, but you don't have to continually torture yourself with guilt and shame in order to pay some level of penance for what happened because it's happened. 
Jodie:: [00:10:40] Yeah. And I think I am torturing myself. 
Tanya:: [00:10:43] I think you really are 
Jodie:: [00:10:44] in ways that I don't.
That I'm only just beginning to realize, like, I, I, I think now I see myself as different person. I see myself as someone that's not, you know, not deserving of things that other people are deserving of because I feel like I've committed this huge sin. 
Yeah, absolutely. Penance is quite 
Tanya:: [00:11:08] a good word. Isn't it?
Cause it does feel like that for you. 
Jodie:: [00:11:12] I don't know how I will get to a stage where I can let that go and say that it is that it doesn't matter. 
Tanya:: [00:11:20] Acceptance. Isn't saying that something was okay. Acceptance is about saying it has happened, but I need to now continue on with my life without the legacy of that con continually kind of holding me down and holding me back.
Jodie:: [00:11:40] Yeah. 
Tanya:: [00:11:41] But in terms of the, the, the actuality of your relationship with your ex husband, do you think he and you were a good relationship together? Do you think that if this hadn't happened, you would have stayed together and it would have been a good relationship and a solid relationship as a sort of foundational attachment for your son 
Jodie:: [00:12:02] in the long term?
It wouldn't have been because it wasn't enough
Tanya:: [00:12:07] for who?
Jodie:: [00:12:08] , for me. I think deep down, I knew that eventually I would feel like I needed someone that was maybe emotionally on, on a bit more of a level with me. We're both obsessed with our son. So I think that could have kept us connected for a while, but I don't think longterm, it would have.
Tanya:: [00:12:34] So you're saying if you'd stayed together, Jack's needs would have been. Met for awhile because that what the two of you were completely United on, was him still and still is. And your absolute love for him and commitment to him as his parents. But what you're saying is, in terms of your needs being met in the relationship probably longer term not, and that was a gut instinct that you had, and then.
You know, presumably what would have happened is you would have been happy as Jack's mother, but unhappy as your ex-husband's partner. And generally what happens is that then the unhappy parent, because their needs aren't being met in their relationship can feel unhappy to the child that's being parented by them.
So in a sense, the arrangement that you will have now feels solid. Again, as a foundation for your son, it feels solid in a way that somewhere inside you, you felt that it probably longterm wouldn't have been. If you and his father had stayed together. No doubt there would have been arguments. There would have been a tension.
Jodie:: [00:13:51] There would have been, yeah. Things that he would have experienced that he actually doesn't has never experienced. He's never heard of crossword between me and his dad. You know, he's always had. Um, undivided attention from each of us individually and still time with us together. You know, we still do stuff together with him.
I guess that's a little bit a part of that brings the guilt. 
Tanya:: [00:14:15] And I was going to say, I'm sure that's something that you end up kind of stabbing yourself in the heart with, 
Jodie:: [00:14:19] because if we are together and we're at the park or something, and I say, Oh, mommy's going to go now and you're going to go home with daddy and, um, and he's like, no, mommy stay like he wants us together.
Tanya:: [00:14:32] Of course. 
Jodie:: [00:14:32] And that is, that is really kind of soul destroying that, that feeling of H I, you know, I walk away with that situation, 
Tanya:: [00:14:43] but then I suppose what you do is you put it against what his responses would have been if he had a sense that you and his father were unhappy. It's confirmation bias for you.
That's a psychological term, but that's like we see things and interpret them in a way to confirm our own belief system. And I think because you hold on, yeah, this belief, this self-loathing, this kind of disgust at what you did. I say the word disgust, you looked down and you take a breath. I mean, I think that's really very much where you're at with all of this.
You will then interpret your son's behavior  in, in ways to say, see. Yeah. See what an absolutely revolting woman I am 
Jodie:: [00:15:25] and i hugely do? And there'll 
be days I'll pick him up from nursery and I'll turn up at the window and he'll smile through the window. And then as we get to the door, he'll just burst into tears and say, daddy, and then my heart just.
Goes, because I feel like I've put him in a situation where he can't have both of us 
developmentally 
Tanya:: [00:15:47] and that sort of toddler two and a half sort of age. There is a, a real kind of sense of big he's beginning to understand alternatives in relationships. And he's beginning to understand separation anxiety. So he's, he's kind of, he's looking at you, but thinking of his.
Father, he's looking at his father, but thinking of you, but again, it's confirmation bias. You see that and you go, and he is feeling that pain because I inflicted that pain on him because I had an affair and therefore me and his father are not together. 
Claudia:: [00:16:18] So, Tanya, I just want to pause a minute to ask, talk to me about this is so interesting.
Confirmation bias. 
Tanya:: [00:16:25] The confirmation bias theory is a social psychology theory that looks at how. We as individuals can find ways of confirming beliefs that we hold. You might see it. For example, when you look at racist behavior, homophobic behavior, any behavior, which is discriminatory and people come together in groups and they will deconstruct what's going on around them and say, you see, this is the reason why I hate these people.
This is the reason why. I hate this particular situation, because look, and, and it's cherry picking information and skewing it in order to confirm my beliefs. And we can also do that about ourselves. So with Jodie, the confirmation bias was she holds guilt about being the worst mother in the world because of the affair and because she and her sons.
Father separated because of her actions and therefore, any moment that her son expresses any level of distress, which actually a two and a half year old will often say, I don't want you. I want daddy. I don't want. You daddy. I want mommy. She doesn't see that as a, just a normal developmental behavior. What she automatically does is says he's doing that because I've damaged him because of what I did
at two 
Claudia:: [00:17:49] and a half. I remember mine. I can't not that one, this one. And it's up to you, whether you go to bad, daddy's not here. You've got me. Should we build a den? Absolutely. This is what's for supper. Deal with it. 
Tanya:: [00:17:59] Children understand they can play one attachment off against another and, and so on and so forth.
So. Confirmation bias in Jodi's case is around the issue of attachment. And that's what I've also been talking to her about. 
Claudia:: [00:18:11] Okay. That's clear. Let's get back to the chat. 
Tanya:: [00:18:14] Let's talk about attachment. Let's talk about relationships because that is what I think you're particularly concerned about in terms of the evidence around child, mental health and behavioral outcomes and life outcomes.
And in terms of my own clinical experience over 30 years now, children do better. With separated, happy co-parenting parents than parents who are together and unhappy. So this misnomer that we stayed together for the sake of the children, is utter rubbish and causes untold damage. Now. When I write about this and I, you know, I say these things as I am to you now, there's always a backlash.
You know, that somehow it sort of undermines the sanctity of family and every child having two parents together, et cetera. If you look at the psychological and developmental studies around child development, in terms of families and family relationships, conflict within a relationship depression. In one or both parents un happiness, because relationship isn't working needs, aren't being met damages children in quite a profound way.
What I think about Jack, your beautiful two and a half year old son is that he has, what I would say is an incredibly secure attachment with both his parents. And he sees an incredibly secure co-parenting attachment. Between, both his parents. So the template that he is getting for how he has relationships moving forward is brilliant.
I guess I'm curious about your attachment template. I'm I guess this gets to me being more forensic with you and saying, what is it, do you think might have led to the affair and the situation that you found yourself in. Is there a story around your childhood attachments? Is there something that right you're nodding?
So, so well, so, um, 
Jodie:: [00:20:25] yeah, hugely, I didn't have a father growing up. You know, my father left when I was months old and I never have ever had him in my life. So when I talk about that, it's, it's, it's focused around my mum. I guess the thing about my dad to mention is that, you know, growing up, I always felt like that was my fault.
Why wasn't I important enough for him to stay and be my dad? 
Tanya:: [00:20:53] And let's just tag that for a sec. We'll go back to that, but you are massively projecting that onto Jack. Now this sense of abandonment. So when he greets you at nursery and says, I want daddy. What it wakes up inside you is that little girl who, who felt abandoned, but then blamed herself.
It's called projective identification. When our children do things and we have this huge emotional response to what they're doing, actually, when you take a step back, you think, hold on my response to what my child does, just did is actually nothing to do with my child two and a half year olds will say, I want mommy.
I want daddy. The emotional response I had is me that child in me going. My dad left because it was my fault. 
Jodie:: [00:21:36] I hadn't even thought about it that way at all. I feel like it hasn't had a huge impact on my life, but maybe it has 
Tanya:: [00:21:46] you look tearful when you say it. I think it has. I mean, it's something you don't really think about very much, but it is something you carry a sense of responsibility is a tiny, I mean, what were you a few months old?
Jodie:: [00:21:59] Yeah. 
Tanya:: [00:22:00] And you're carrying this idea that somehow at a few months old, something about you pushed your father away, you're holding a responsibility for your father going. 
Jodie:: [00:22:13] Yeah. And it's really difficult because as an adult, now, I know that's definitely not the case, nothing to do with me whatsoever. But having said that, that doesn't take away that.
Tanya:: [00:22:25] That's how you you feel 
Jodie:: [00:22:26] feeling yeah. 
Of. I wasn't good enough for him to stay and be my dad. 
Tanya:: [00:22:33] And then you project that onto Jack. It's actually got nothing to do with Jack Jack. Isn't feeling that.
But carry on with the story. So your, your, your biological father left went and you have a sense of responsibility for that, even though logically, you know, it's, can't be your responsibility. Yeah. 
Jodie:: [00:22:59] Um, and then my relationship with my mom is just. It's it's a really odd thing because we are very close in a sense, very connected because we just had each other.
In another sense. We are just so far apart because I've got huge amounts of resentment for her due to my upbringing. And again, it's that thing of me not being important enough. You know, she was young, she was 19 years old when she had me. Um, she effectively carried on the life of a 19 year old. I was just part of her life swept up in her life.
Never considered the way that I would describe it is just tumultuous. Like there was no stability, you know, one day be doing this the next day. You'd be going round to this person's house to look after you the next day, someone else would be picking you up from school. So you had multiple caregivers.
Yeah. And what about your mother's relationships? Did she have a partner, many partners. I couldn't even tell you how many. She couldn't have a relationship lasted longer than two years. And quite often less, but then also those people were bought into my space. So it would be, she would get a new boyfriend, probably not know them very long and they'd be moving in to our house, you know, to my home.
You know, sometimes they've got on with them and liked them. Sometimes it didn't. Sometimes they were quite nasty to me. Sometimes I was just outraged that they were kind of in my space and actually taking all of my mom's time and attention and then they'd split up and there'd be another one. There was no.
 focus on me like ever. You know, it was the next person that was exciting. And, and as I'm saying this, I've just got horrible feeling because I feel as though what I did makes me like her in a sense. 
Tanya:: [00:25:09] But that's what this is all 
about my love. I mean, there are such massive differences between your childhood of multiple caregivers, insecure attachments.
Um, a lack of stability and consistency. That's your childhood is that Jack's childhood. 
Jodie:: [00:25:30] You know, I D I don't even trust anyone else to look after him except me, his dad and his grandparents, his dad's side. I wouldn't even have anyone else take care of it. 
Tanya:: [00:25:40] So he has a stable set of significant primary.
Caregivers, his primary attachments with you and his father are strong and bonded. Well organized, well managed. It's making you very emotional. 
Jodie:: [00:25:56] I'm so aware of how things that happen now at this stage in his life can affect you in the future. Because of, because of what's happened to me. And so it just makes me so concerned and 
Tanya:: [00:26:12] you're frightened, 
Jodie:: [00:26:12] I definitely get that.
I've tried to do the absolute opposite with him. I always have, because I don't want him to ever feel insecure and have issues with anxiety and things like that, that I have now as an adult, which I I know is because of my, my childhood, 
Tanya:: [00:26:31] but this isn't about Jack, Jody. This is about you. My concern for Jack is how his mother will continue to project and identify with aspects of his life experience against her own, and then continue to be anxious.
and guilty. And therefore what he will get from you is something that doesn't feel as content and as at peace as. It should, based on how you are as his mother, how his father is as his father, this has got nothing to do with Jack the risk factors in Jack's life. I mean, there are none. The problem is what happened with you and Jacks father replicates some almost mirrors.
What happened to you as a child? You were three months old when your father left. 
Jodie:: [00:27:28] Yeah, 
Tanya:: [00:27:28] Jack was how old, when. 
Jodie:: [00:27:30] Yeah, three months. 
Tanya:: [00:27:31] So it's, I mean, you couldn't write this, could you it's, you know, and because it's replicates it, you're now looking at your experience and telling yourself that that is the experience that Jack is having.
My word of caution to you is if you, if you don't find a way to calm that inner child in you. And to recognize the difference in your narrative and Jack's narrative, the impact on you will be such that he will not get you in the way that would be the best for him, because you will be anxious, fretful, and guilty for the rest of his time as a dependent child.
Jodie:: [00:28:25] And that's all I need to hear to try and move forward. You know, the thought that being stuck in this place means that it would have any effect on him. 
Tanya:: [00:28:38] Yeah. The way his life is now is not going to have an effect on him. His life is great. Of course, he'll come home and say, why don't you and dad live together?
Why don't you? I mean, That will be a challenge for him to get his head around. And that will be something for you as parents to help him understand. But my gut instinct is you will, and he won't be the only child he knows who has separated parents. He'll probably be one of the only children he knows who has separated parents, who are also friends and get on well, and there is a relaxed, loving dynamic between everybody around him.
You've done. Great. You and your ex need to write a book on how to do this? Well, it feels like you've really worked out. Your son knows how to have secure attachments, but your son doesn't need an anxious, guilty mother who is misreading his normal childhood behavior, his normal childhood questions.
as significant damage that she's inflicted on him when actually the damage that she's feeling. Is the damage that she experienced as a child and obviously becoming someone who felt very ambivalent about attachment, because you never knew. Do I attach don't I attach, are they going to stay? Are they going to go? Do they like me?
Do they not like me? Why is my mom spending all her time with them? Doesn't she care about me anymore? That's your stuff. It doesn't belong to your son. Don't make it his.
You're really smiling. Now 
Jodie:: [00:30:16] it's a relief that he's not being damaged at the moment, but there's also a fear that, you know, what if I don't get myself together and then I impact him now in this way, you know, there's always a fear. 
Tanya:: [00:30:31] So I've re I've given you some relief in one level. Because I've explained something to you from an attachment perspective and a developmental perspective, but I've sort of now given you something else to worry about.
Yeah. What if I can't sort my shit out basically. Yeah. We'll take a break and let's think of something that might be helpful for you to think about for us to kind of take you onto the next stage of that process. I think we've both agreed that Jack's narrative is not your narrative. That you're blending the two together.
I think the task is for you to do an exercise. We'll give you a bit of paper, just have two columns, my childhood Jack's childhood. Okay. Look at relationships, attachments, relationship with a father, you know, relationships with grandparents, caregivers, you know, all of that sort of stuff. Write down what you experienced as a list on one side, and then next to it, write down what Jack is experiencing and then work out where the similarities are.
My sense is the only similarity is at three months old. You and Jack both experienced that your biological parents did not stay together as a couple. My sense is that's where the similarity begins and ends. But I think your first step in this process is you've got to separate the narrative. Then you can deal with your anxiety to do with your childhood, which sounds to me tumultuous.
And I feel like you need some, some space to process that, then you're doing the right thing for your son. 
Jodie:: [00:32:17] I think that's, that's a good place to start. 
Tanya:: [00:32:19] Has this been helpful?
Jodie:: [00:32:29] immensly
Claudia:: [00:32:32] Tanya. Let's talk about Jody. Number one. I think we both sort of fallen in love with her and we'd like to do a flat share because there is this extraordinary woman doing an amazing job with her child. Co-parenting right. Then it became utterly fascinating. And I just want to say this for anybody who's listening, I'm in another room and I sort of, I've got a clipboard.
I'm not embarrassed about it. I've got a clipboard, 
you're holding 
Tanya:: [00:33:00] it now 
Claudia:: [00:33:01] I'm holding it. Cause I'm writing notes, manically. And I dropped it when the revelation about her own childhood and her biological father leaving at three months, her deciding to separate when her son was three months and therefore.
People having an attachment template because she's not repeating history, what she's doing, 
Tanya:: [00:33:22] but she's telling herself, she is right. The idea of an attachment template comes from attachment theory, which was a theory sort of built around various models of relationships and attachment styles in the 1960s.
That's when we first started talking about attachment, fundamentally, there are four attachment styles
Claudia:: [00:33:41] this is amazing. I'm writing it on my clipboard. I'm fascinated. 
Tanya:: [00:33:46] So. There's an attachment style, secure attachment style. It's not that we don't have difficulties in relationships, but we can work them through. We can understand relationships, relationship difficulties.
We can be open. We can be honest.
Claudia:: [00:33:58] . And also, you
just described Jack her son. 
Tanya:: [00:34:01] Exactly. He has a secure attachment. He will develop a secure attachment style. Then we have. An anxious attachment. So that's often where people haven't really had their needs met in childhood. They will be incredibly needy in relationships, moving forward in their lives, needy, possessive, those sorts of kind of attachment styles, always looking for reassurance, confirmation, the template being people don't love me enough.
People don't meet my need. Then you have. Avoidant attachment styles and they fall into two categories. One is an anxious avoidant, and one is dismissive avoidant. So an avoidant attachment style is about almost people who don't really commit in a relationship. And that then can be. Issues around commitment to do with anxiety or issues around commitment that present as being very dismissive.
You're not enough. You're not good enough. Now, my sense for Jody, her sense of relationships and attachments in her childhood were disorganized. You look at Jack Jack's attachments are very well organized, very secure, very loving, but what she then does is every time she thinks it's about what she did.
She projects onto him a sense that his life is disorganized and disruptive and damaging for him when actually she's talking about herself. So that's the idea of projective identification. 
Claudia:: [00:35:33] Can you change your template? 
Tanya:: [00:35:37] Therapy. So it's about understanding. There's a fantastic systemic family therapist who, who sadly.
Died this year, a man called John Bing Hall. And he talked about the fact that in families, as adults, when we have our own children, we often say, I want to create a corrective script. I want to do it differently. But actually sometimes we do create a repetitive script. Right? We will do things the same.
Claudia:: [00:36:01] I constantly 
sound like my mum. 
Tanya:: [00:36:02] Right. What's really fascinating about Jodi is she has completely corrected for her child. What was done to her. She's given him a secure attachment base. The three month old thing is interesting because again, it feels repetitive to her cause she was three months old when her biological father left and she still holds guilt and shame that somehow she pushed him away.
Even though logically she knows that's impossible. Cause she was a three month old baby. 
Claudia:: [00:36:29] Okay. Thanks Tanya. Let's get back to the session.
Tanya:: [00:36:42] Jack will be fine. So that's the plan. And of course it's the plan. 
Jodie:: [00:36:48] Definitely. My overriding goal in life is that he doesn't experience those, those insecure feelings, 
Tanya:: [00:37:00] a word of caution there, don't try too hard on this one. One of the other kind of legacy issues for a lot of people, who've had very anxious and disorganized.
Early attachment experiences themselves is that they over idealize how their child's childhood is going to be. And it becomes super controlled and super well managed, but Jack's allowed sometimes to be grumpy, Jack's allowed sometimes to just find life difficult. You know, it's this idea that, you know, we are also members of the bad mother's club, how a, kid's going to have a realistic perception of human nature and human behavior.
If they leave these, these perfectly sculptured, you know, micromanaged. Wonderful childhoods. They're going to go out in the world and they're going to literally crash and burn. So all I would say is in your efforts to make things different and secure for him, which I commend hugely. And I would say you're doing an excellent job,at don't over idealize it cause poor old Jack then has to present to you in a way that constantly reassures you, that you haven't messed him up.
As long as. Conflict ends in resolution and apology. So long as frustration ends in expression and understanding conflict and frustration can happen and they have to, 
Jodie:: [00:38:27] I can totally see what you're saying. And it's definitely something I need to remember. 
Tanya:: [00:38:32] So let's go with the narrative. You did a bit of work.
I said, you've got to separate his life and your life, his childhood experiences and yours. So you've done a. A little chart, talk me through it. Let's have a hear. 
Jodie:: [00:38:44] I started 
with the one thing that we do have in common, which essentially his mom and dad not being together, um, from a very young age from being a baby.
But then the next thing that kind of came to mind from that was that I feel like I was brought up in a really unstable home. He hasn't even just got one stable home. He's got two places that he can call home and, and feel secure in. And then I thought about the fact that my grandparents were not very involved in my life at all for various reasons.
He's got absolutely adoring grandparent's that regularly look after him. So see, that's obviously something very different. Oh, I obviously didn't have any kind of the father figure or male role models at all. He's got a loving dad. He is a great father figure and role model for him. I felt like I didn't really get any attention, whereas he's actually got constant one on one attention.
One of the things I put is that I've got no blueprint for a lasting relationship. He does, in a sense, it's just a different kind. You know, we are definitely caring to each other and he sees that. 
Tanya:: [00:39:59] You're so good at telling yourself how rubbish you are. You absolutely cannot see. How competent you are, how loving you are, because you're so caught up with your anxiety, which has so much to do with the unresolved sense of not being heard and not being seen in your own childhood, that you're completely missing.
What a fantastic job you're doing with your son.
Telling yourself. You're a good mother is a really important thing to be able to do.
Jodie:: [00:40:42] It's just 
really hard to do.. 
Tanya:: [00:40:44] Um, actually, isn't, we're standing in a beautiful room. I don't know. We're in Switzerland floor to ceiling windows and there's a huge mountain in front of us. And I'm looking out of one window and you're down the other end of the room looking out of another window.
We're both thinking, should we climb that mountain? And you're looking at the mountain out of your window and you see just brambles. There's no path. There's something about the way you're looking at that mountain. And you're just looking at the peak. It looks far away and you're saying, Tanya, forget it.
There's no way we're going to climb that mountain. I say, Hey, Jody, just come here a sec, come and look out my window. And suddenly as we stand together, we see a different side of the mountain. We could see how we could get to base camp one. We could take a breath. We could think. Okay, well, what's our next step on the journey we keep saying, don't look at the peak.
Don't look at the peak taken in stages. We'd really coach each other through it. We're looking at the same mountain. We're just looking at different windows. If you focus only on your deficits as a mother, because you can't forgive yourself for what happened, then you'll never really be. Fully the secure attachment that your son needs.
You need to be able to talk that through. And I would suggest a therapist who can both hear your narrative with you and help you work out how to manage those automatic anxiety, thoughts, and how to sort of spot those sorts and think, Hmm, no, that's a toxic thought that actually isn't reality now. I'm going to park that thought I'm going to breathe.
I'm going to bring myself to a more rational space and I'm going to carry on. 
Jodie:: [00:42:34] I don't even see it as separate. I just think when you're saying that, I think, well, that's just me. 
Tanya:: [00:42:40] I remember once a very experienced therapist saying to me, A useful way of understanding ourselves is to see that we have a family living inside us.
So we have different versions of ourselves living inside us. Now, you know that. So when you're out with your girlfriends, you'll be Jody with her girlfriends. When you're, when you're with your partner, you have, now you'll be Jody with her partner. When obviously when you're with Jack, you're Jody, who's mommy.
And our relationship with our children can often bring out a child, part of us in a good way. We can become more playful, more fun than all the stuff that kids bring out, which is just. Amazing, but we can also become more anxious and fretful because kids can also trigger memories and experiences is and things that we don't even know that we're remembering, but we are it's about how we can use these different parts of ourselves, how a family can work together to manage itself as a unit.
So the part of you that I'm experiencing today is this very rational, compassionate woman. And that's the part of you. That disappears when the anxious, fretful guilty, you're nodding hugely 
Jodie:: [00:43:47] Definitely
Tanya:: [00:43:48] part of you comes up. So you're the same person, but different parts of you have jumped into the driving seat.
So the therapeutic process is just about acknowledging all these different parts that we all have. And then thinking about how we can use this kind of adult part of ourselves, the maturity, the wisdom, the thoughtfulness, what we're, what we're processing in therapy. To comfort and soothe these other parts of ourselves that developed at different times in our lives.
Yeah. Smiling now, does it feel hopeful? 
Jodie:: [00:44:22] Yeah, definitely. It really does. 
Tanya:: [00:44:25] I just want to say to you, despite what your inner voice tells you, your son is really lucky to have you as his mother.
Jodie:: [00:44:35] Thank you
Claudia:: [00:44:38] What have you learnt? 
Jodie:: [00:44:42] If you 
learned 
that, and this keeps going through my head is that these are different narratives. You know what I've gone through. Um, doesn't mean that my son's going to have the same experiences and that I'm projecting some of my stuff onto him. I think that's something I've learned. That's been really, really helpful.
And also that I need to do some of this work for myself so that it doesn't affect my son. And that now I've got that extra motivation to do it. Not only for me, but because it will create a better outcome for him as well. 
Claudia:: [00:45:29] Totally. And 
what I want to say to you now, just cause, um, I've got big kids is when he says now when, um, his dad picks him up, I wanted mommy, nothing, nothing compared to when he's 14 and his dad makes a better roast chicken than you.
The I'm going to dad's cause this is rubbish. You're making me do homework. And if you carry around this, this is all my fault. You need to be. Absolute pure solid power when all of that happens, which by the way is completely normal and will make Jack fantastic and a brilliant friend and a brilliant boyfriend, whoever he chooses it.
Thank you for coming in. 
Jodie:: [00:46:09] Thank you.
Claudia:: [00:46:20] I loved there's a whole family in us. That's how I feel. I was like, Oh, well, she's just nailed it sometimes I feel four most of the time, I feel 78. I mean, I asked for a crochet set for my 21st, but I love the fact there's a whole family in us. Tell me more
Tanya:: [00:46:34] It's a useful concept because for example, people who are struggling with anxiety, anxiety, that's related to trauma, to past issues, to difficult childhoods, or just things that have happened in more recent times that have really kind of unsettled and discombobulated them in their lives.
There is that real sense that. This is who I am. I am this person. I am anxious. I am overwhelmed. I am unable to function. And from a therapeutic perspective, and again, remembering that therapy is about narrative. It's about what's, what's my story. How did I get here? Exactly. What we trying to achieve in the stories that we're hearing about in our podcast therapy is about sort of acknowledging that part of ourselves, but finding other parts of ourselves too.
Soothe to comfort, to manage, to challenge, to talk back to. So it's about understanding within us. There is the logical rational part. There is the very childlike immature part. There is the pain child. There is the happy child. There is the, you know, there is the older person. There is the needy person. Yeah.
And if we can accept that we have all these different aspects to ourselves, then it's about self management and self care. 
i 
Claudia:: [00:47:53] love that. Okay. That's where we're ending. And I'm going to tell you 10 year old, me, who happens to be living in my left arm says we should go for ice cream. 
Tanya:: [00:48:00] Oh, can we? 
Come on. Okay. I'm going to skip there. Now i know theres a whole family in me.
Claudia:: [00:48:11] Please remember 
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Sally: [00:48:50] this person that I thought had really good qualities, suddenly the layers seem to peel away and I think, Ooh, There's something underlying there and I'm not comfortable with it.
Claudia:: [00:49:05] This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Grace Laiker, the producer is Selina Ream. And the executive producer is Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening.