Claudia: [00:00:00] Please note, this episode contains some emotional content, including discussion around suicide and domestic violence. It might not be suitable for all listeners. 
Sally: [00:00:19] How do you do it? Just blows me away. 
Tanya: [00:00:22] You know how to do it. And you did it once, but it was an extraordinary tragedy, what happened in the end.
Claudia: [00:00:31] Hello and thank you so much for picking, How Did We Get Here? The podcasts were me, Claudia Winkleman and clinical psychologist, professor Tanya Byron, who is also a great friend of mine, look at some of life's challenges and try to find the tools to address them. Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions, whilst I'm listening in from another room. 
In the break and at the end, I ask Tan a bit about her process and we explore the issues that are raised. This time we meet Sally, who is a [00:01:00] single mother, has a daughter, age 14 and a son age 12. She was a paramedic for many years before starting her own business. 
Sally feels she can never keep a relationship going past 18 months. She says she always finds something wrong with her partners and rejects them. 
Sally: [00:01:15] This person that I thought had really good qualities, suddenly, the layers seem to peel away and I think, "Oh, there's something underlying there, and I'm not comfortable with it". 
Claudia: [00:01:30] What you're about out here at the key parts of a onetime, unscripted session with a real person, we follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode, let's go and meet Sally.
Hello, Sally. Thank you so much for coming in. Why are you here?
Sally: [00:01:55] I think is probably my inability to sustain [00:02:00] relationships for any longer than a year, 18 months. 
Claudia: [00:02:04] Let's start with you first, you're, you've got two wonderful children. How old are they? 
Sally: [00:02:09] Nearly 15 year oldn daughter, who yet is amazing and fearless. And then, my son is just 12 and yeah, he's cute and sensitive and lovely. 
Claudia: [00:02:22] When did you split up from their dad?
Sally: [00:02:24] Over 10 years ago.
Claudia: [00:02:25] But the dad's great, right? He's a good dad. 
Sally: [00:02:28] Over time. Initially, it was really hard. I knew that I had to leave, because my children weren't seeing what a relationship should be. And I'm really worried now that I'm somehow inadequate, because I can't tolerate people over a period of time. 
Claudia: [00:02:48] When do you start slightly going off them?
Sally: [00:02:52] It is normally probably six months in, and I start to see things and then those things get bigger. [00:03:00] Every man has had a different reason.
Claudia: [00:03:03] Right. So it's not like you always go for the same...
Sally: [00:03:05] No.
Claudia: [00:03:05] ...guy.
So, some have been kind, some have been funny. 
Sally: [00:03:10] So in the past, pre-children, I've met some amazing people and then almost self-sabotaged I suppose. I now ask myself, is that because I have an issue with my own dad? Am I  just a man-hater? Even though, I don't think I am, I love men. 
Claudia: [00:03:27] And you've seem extremely friendly.
Tell me about your dad, and your relationship with him. 
Sally: [00:03:32] I'm one of three. So, I've got sister and brother. And, not this Christmas, last, he made the decision to disconnect entirely from my lives. He was a disciplinarian. he was a businessman and he wasn't around very much. We certainly never did anything with him. 
Claudia: [00:03:49] What, like a Sunday lunch out, go into the zoo?
Sally: [00:03:52] I mean, not really, really? No. If we did, it would just be fraught and full of angst, because we'd be [00:04:00] scared that he'd tell us off. We used to call him Hitler. 
Claudia: [00:04:04] Wow. 
Sally: [00:04:05] Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:04:05] So, he was a tyrant. 
Sally: [00:04:08] When mum and dad got divorced, when I was 18, we all breathed this huge sigh of relief.
Claudia: [00:04:16] Like, thank goodness. We don't have to pretend anymore.
Sally: [00:04:18] After the divorce had settled down, which was really yucky. It was almost as if he'd reset. And he wanted to have that father daughter relationship, even though perhaps he didn't know how I could see he was trying. Although, he was trying with me, he then went 15 years without speaking to my brother at all.
Claudia: [00:04:41] What? 
Sally: [00:04:42] We don't know, we think it's because he discovered that my brother is gay. 
Claudia: [00:04:47] Right. 
Sally: [00:04:47] And we think he hired private detectives when they were going through a divorce. 
Claudia: [00:04:52] Okay. I feel like you have feelings of softness that... he sounds cruel.
Sally: [00:04:57] He is cruel. But he's still my dad. 
[00:05:00] Claudia: [00:04:59] Yeah. 
Sally: [00:05:00] And I'm talking about him, because I think, well, has that affected me now, and my inability to trust, perhaps men?
Claudia: [00:05:09] Do you have very high standards? I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but if he cuts toast and doesn't throw the crumbs away, if you've... one month in, you find that adorable seven months in, do you want to throw the crumbs in his eyes? 
Sally: [00:05:24] Yeah. So, initially I probably don't have high enough standards and I think, "no, it's all about give and take. I have to compromise", you know, I'm not getting any younger. And then, this person that I thought had really good qualities suddenly the layers seemed to peel away and I think, "Oh, there's something underlying there and I'm not comfortable with it". 
Claudia: [00:05:48] It's absolutely fine that your kids are learning, "do you know what? Don't stay with somebody for the sake of it". 
Sally: [00:05:52] And that's what I try and say to my daughter. She just says, "Oh, you must be really emotionally needy." I feel as if she's lost [00:06:00] respect in me and I kept saying, "well, no, I'm not going to stay with someone, who's not good enough for us". 
Claudia: [00:06:06] Yes. And also 15 year olds, almost 15 year olds are supposed to think their mums sometimes losers. As I say, thank goodness you're not here to talk to me, because I know nothing, but professor Tony Byron is coming in. Thank you so much for coming in Sally. 
Sally: [00:06:26] My friends have been trying to do this for me for years. 
Tanya: [00:06:28] Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, you've got some lovely friends, right? 
Sally: [00:06:32] I have. 
Tanya: [00:06:33] Every woman needs a wife. 
Sally: [00:06:34] And I almost need that man-girl friend. 
Tanya: [00:06:38] And what would that be? 
Sally: [00:06:40] Just be a good person. 
Tanya: [00:06:42] That you feel safe with. 
Sally: [00:06:43] Yeah. And able to open up to and know that there'll be no recourse. I think it's just because we've just been talking about my dad, just, perhaps, realizing that I never [00:07:00] really had that with him. And, I guess everybody should have that with their dad. 
Tanya: [00:07:04] Right. You're saying, "you know what? I feel like, because I never had it. I don't really know how to do it. That safe, loving attachment".
Sally: [00:07:13] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:07:14] I think as you've identified, there's definitely something to talk about in terms of your father. But, I just wanted to ask you, before that you've described these relationships, which kind of get to about 18 months and, then it sort of, they, they fall apart and end. I'm just curious, has there ever been a relationship, where you were in love?
Sally: [00:07:34] Yeah. When I was 20, 19-20. 
Tanya: [00:07:38] Okay. Tell me what happened. 
Sally: [00:07:40] Um, we moved in, we bought a house together. We were both in the police together. Yeah. I loved him completely unconditionally.
Tanya: [00:07:50] And did you feel the same back from him? 
Sally: [00:07:52] Yes. And then he got really ill with depression and he went on Prozac and then [00:08:00] suddenly he was developing physical outbursts. And in the end, it culminated in him taking his own life. 
Tanya: [00:08:09] He took his life. I'm sorry to hear that for him and for you. 
Sally: [00:08:15] Yeah. Yeah. I feel for him more than anything, but he was in turmoil. I could see that. 
Tanya: [00:08:22] Did he have any support? Did anyone talk to him? Did he have any... 
Sally: [00:08:26] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:08:26] ...treatment, mental health treatment?
Sally: [00:08:27] He had the counselor that I knew about. But towards the end, you know how alcoholics cover their addiction. It's almost as if he was covering the fact that he wasn't going for his therapy. 
Tanya: [00:08:42] So, he was avoiding? 
Sally: [00:08:43] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:08:45] Still fills you with emotion just even all these years later. 
Sally: [00:08:49] Yeah, it feels, it was as if it was somebody else's life, because I wasn't living in the same place that I live now. I was doing a completely different job and so much has been in between, [00:09:00] but I still think about him. 
Tanya: [00:09:03] How do you think about him? 
Sally: [00:09:06] What might have been, perhaps? Because, I think that was the hardest thing at the time was accepting that all those dreams we had, were suddenly ripped away. 
Tanya: [00:09:14] Yes. 
Sally: [00:09:16] For about 10 years, I think I carried a lot of guilt, wishing I had acted differently.
Tanya: [00:09:20] Yes, people who lose a loved one to suicide will really carry for years, maybe even a lifetime of burden of guilt. It's a very complicated bereavement. You're still grieving. I see that. 
Sally: [00:09:34] Yeah. I think... a member of the family a few weeks ago just suddenly asked me about him out of the blue. And, I was aware then ,that I still had grief in me.
And there was a different element to it coming out after all these years. 
Tanya: [00:09:50] W-what was the element that was different? 
Sally: [00:09:53] Almost a rawness, which I thought would have left me at the time. [00:10:00] And yet I feel so removed from it. 
Tanya: [00:10:04] It's been put somewhere, but maybe not quite processed enough. 
Sally: [00:10:07] Yeah. Yeah. So, I stayed in the police for a year afterwards and then just went traveling for about 10 years.
Tanya: [00:10:16] You just had to get away. 
Sally: [00:10:18] And then, it was almost as if after that amount of time, I could come back and be someone different.
Tanya: [00:10:24] I mean, the sits really heavily with you, doesn't it? The loss of, of this man who you loved so much and had your, your dreams with. 
Sally: [00:10:33] I did trust him, I suppose. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:10:36] Was, he kind? 
Sally: [00:10:37] He was kind, really kind.
Tanya: [00:10:39] Did you feel safe with him? 
Sally: [00:10:41] At the beginning...
Tanya: [00:10:42] Before he became unwell... 
Sally: [00:10:43] Before he became as unwell. 
Tanya: [00:10:45] But you lost this man and you are left with a sense of deep sadness, which still sits inside you. I'm sorry. I can see... You also said, that you went [00:11:00] away, reinvented yourself and you said, "I came back a different person".
Sally: [00:11:05] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:11:05] Can you explain that to me a little bit? 
Sally: [00:11:07] I crossed the Atlantic on a sailboat. I was a holiday rep. Um, when you think I've been in the police and then suddenly I'm partying and you know? This attitude of "what, I'm just going to give it a go cause I've got nothing to lose". 
Tanya: [00:11:21] And how, how do you think you were different when you came back?
Sally: [00:11:24] Well, detached, I suppose. Because, there had been so much happen in those years, I could just carry on as if it hadn't happened. 
Tanya: [00:11:33] The circumstances of your partner's death. In terms of what you saw, were they very traumatic? 
Sally: [00:11:39] Yes. 
Claudia: [00:11:40] At this point, we're going to pause tape for a different reason than normal. Sally went into some detail about how her boyfriend took his own life, which Tanya addressed. However, on advice from the Samaritans, we feel that it's safest not to include that here as it may be a risk to others, apologies for the interruption and back to the [00:12:00] conversation.
Sally: [00:12:00] I knew it was futile, though. All the time when I was holding him, I knew he'd gone. That was a long time, you know, there with him.
Tanya: [00:12:12] How long?
Sally: [00:12:16] 40 minutes. 
Tanya: [00:12:17] Oh my goodness. That's trauma. That is trauma. 
Sally: [00:12:24] But I just screamed and screamed and screamed. 
Tanya: [00:12:27] I'm sure you did. 
Sally: [00:12:31] I didn't feel the need to talk about anything afterwards. 
Tanya: [00:12:35] You must've felt empty. Completely, just... 
Sally: [00:12:39] I just laid on the sofa. I remember my mum come to get me and she took me to her house and I just laid on her sofa for weeks. Wouldn't move. 
Tanya: [00:12:51] You're in shock. 
Sally: [00:12:53] My mum did say to me, which I have held on to actually, and some people might go, "Oh, that's really harsh", but [00:13:00] she said to me on the journey home, it's just got a hold of me. She said, "you're not going to let this ruin your life. You know, you have, you're going to move on from this", because I was, I was only 21. I was so young. I was so angry with her. But, then months or years later thinking, "no, this isn't, this isn't going to pave the way". And that's why I went off and did all the things I did. 
Tanya: [00:13:24] Hm. So in that moment, as a mother, she said something that felt quite shocking, but it came from a maternal protective place of, his choice to end his life doesn't mean that yours ends too.
Sally: [00:13:40] Yes, absolutely, and I held onto that and I think that that has really helped. So, in that moment, she was a very, she was strong. 
Tanya: [00:13:50] A good mother.
Sally: [00:13:51] Yes. It's bizarre, because at times she can be very weak. We still, us three children [00:14:00] can't work out why she didn't stand up to my dad. 
Tanya: [00:14:05] Because, you know, in her was the ability to sometimes say things that were brave and courageous and important.
Sally: [00:14:11] She didn't do it for us, with my dad, because my dad was heavy handed or... 
Tanya: [00:14:17] He was violent. 
Sally: [00:14:18] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:14:19] To your mother? 
Sally: [00:14:20] Never to my mother. 
Tanya: [00:14:21] To you and your siblings? 
Sally: [00:14:22] Not to my sister, my brother and I. 
Tanya: [00:14:25] So the little one was sort of spared... 
Sally: [00:14:28] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:14:29] The physical violence. 
Sally: [00:14:30] If we were naughty, we would be told you'll get the slipper when we get home and we did. 
Tanya: [00:14:38] So, lots of fear. 
Sally: [00:14:40] Well, that's why I joined the police force, really? 
Tanya: [00:14:43] You're an impressive woman. You've since brought up two kids on your own, you've been a police officer, you've done all your traveling and all that, you've been a paramedic... 
Sally: [00:14:55] Which I often wonder, if that was because of my [00:15:00] sense of inadequacy on that day?
Tanya: [00:15:04] Couldn't save his life. 
Sally: [00:15:05] No.  
Tanya: [00:15:07] Did it feel like somehow it was enabling you at some level to process what you went through or was it not retraumatizing? 
Sally: [00:15:16] It was retraumatizing. 
Tanya: [00:15:17] Must have been, it must have been. 
Sally: [00:15:19] My teeth used to chatter. So in a way... 
Tanya: [00:15:22] Any other suicide would have been, you could have dealth with. 
Sally: [00:15:25] I could've dealt with it.
Tanya: [00:15:25] Yes. What's it like talking about it now? I admire you hugely that you feel able to do that. You seem quite relaxed. I mean, you're crying a lot, but you're quite calm as you and reflective. 
Sally: [00:15:38] Feels therapeutic. It feels helpful. I've never shied away from talking about it, because I know that I must and I should...
Tanya: [00:15:50] But it's also unbelievably sad.
Sally: [00:15:53] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:15:54] Particularly that for you, this is the first time ever you felt loved and [00:16:00] valued and respected. Up until the point your partner became unwell and the depression changed him and his mood, then obviously impacted on his behaviors. And then, of course, I suppose, with the depression, making that shift in your loving partner's behavior, that must have also been incredibly, incredibly hard for you, because you go from being in a relationship, you feel safe and loved in. 
To, to that person then changing into something that you recognize from your childhood as being unsafe and making you very fearful. 
Sally: [00:16:32] And, I guess now, I'm possibly on guard for that. 
Tanya: [00:16:36] Of course you are, of course you are. Why wouldn't you be? 
Sally: [00:16:40] I've known some really kind men that would never, ever be like that. But there's just things I find that I can't tolerate.
Tanya: [00:16:50] Yeah. Give me some examples. 
Sally: [00:16:52] It's normally to do with control. 
Tanya: [00:16:54] Here take another tissue. Sorry, it's normally to do with control. Yeah. 
Sally: [00:16:58] I don't know. One [00:17:00] particular boyfriend wanted to move in and no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not happening. It's gotten to the point where my sister in particular, she almost invests or has done in the last two or three boyfriends that I've had. 
Tanya: [00:17:16] When you say she invests as in, she wants to be close to them. She wants it to work. 
Sally: [00:17:21] Yes. Yeah. We've been really close or gotten closer over the years, but then of late with the breakup, with my last relationship, she's been really angry with me, which is probably what has sparked my thinking.
I really need to sort this out, because it's not just damaging my children, potentially. It's obviously upsetting others, the people. 
Tanya: [00:17:48] And you are blaming yourself. 
Sally: [00:17:51] Yeah. Because why is it that I can't just meet someone and, and just do [00:18:00] the normal thing. 
Tanya: [00:18:03] Should I tell you why, I think maybe one reason might be.
Perhaps, because the part of you that knew how to love is a part of you that you identify as being from another time, in another person. You keep talking about, "I came back a different person". That sense of separation, it's almost as if, having never known how to feel loved with your primary male attachment. It was only fear and nothing that a child should experience. You then meet a man who you don't feel that with, it was something in you that was awoken, something that felt exciting and safe and suddenly things could be different. 
Sally: [00:18:50] And for the future, I think that was the thing I thought, "Oh my goodness, there, there is a future". I see how I'd always been trying to escape my dad. 
Tanya: [00:18:59] The [00:19:00] tragedy of his depression, and the choice he made in terms of how to resolve his depression, which was to take his life, I think then snatched away something that you were just beginning to learn about yourself. And perhaps thats a part of you, you need some support to be able to connect back with again.
Sally: [00:19:22] But how do I do that? 
Tanya: [00:19:24] We'll work it out. By the way, I think you need to look at this for yourself, not because your sister's angry with you. I don't think you need to now do this because you feel guilty and responsible. Have you ever had any support, any counseling or therapy? 
Sally: [00:19:42] I did start some counseling a couple of years ago, which went on for nearly 18 months.
Tanya: [00:19:50] What was your therapeutic relationship like? Was it with a man or a woman?
Sally: [00:19:53] It was with a man? 
Tanya: [00:19:54] Did it feel helpful? Containing, supportive? 
Sally: [00:19:58] Oh, we talk quite a lot [00:20:00] about him and other things that were going on the news and, um, 
Tanya: [00:20:04] About him?
Sally: [00:20:05] Yeah. My friends quite early on, when I was saying about the sessions, they saic, that doesn't sound quite right, but I stuck with it. 
Tanya: [00:20:15] Perhaps what your friends were picking up, which is, I suppose, what I'm thinking about is there was a lack of boundaries in, in a certain respect. 
Sally: [00:20:25] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:20:26] It was almost too much like a, a kind of friendship. 
Sally: [00:20:29] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:20:30] It's interesting the therapist was male, because it seems to me that in relationships with kind of important men in your life, the issue of boundaries is a very difficult thing for you. 
Sally: [00:20:43] It is. 
Tanya: [00:20:44] Lack of boundaries with your father in terms of his rages and his violence. A boundary being transgressed by your partner, when he became unwell and starting to be physically abusive to you. A boundary of love and mutual trust [00:21:00] being transgressed, when he chose to take his life. Now, you find yourself almost hypervigilant in relationships and trying to work out, is this okay? 
Sally: [00:21:08] Yes, definitely. I enjoy male company and male friendships, as well. And so often my boyfriends have, I thought being friends and then over spills... 
Tanya: [00:21:21] And then it becomes a sexual relationship.
Sally: [00:21:24] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:21:24] Do you ever feel people have taken advantage of that part of you? 
Sally: [00:21:28] They've tried. I don't feel that they have been able to, they have tried.
Tanya: [00:21:33] You are a strong, resilient woman. I can imagine that you're a good mother and it's interesting your daughter, at almost 15, feeling her anger and the things that she says and developmentally, that's what you'd expect at that age. But she's clearly able within her relationship with you, to be very open about how she feels and that's done that's down to you. You created that [00:22:00] bond. You gave her a sense of permission that she can test out her ideas about herself, her life. That is an extraordinary mother. You are her primary attachment. 
Sally: [00:22:13] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:22:13] It comes from you. 
Sally: [00:22:16] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:22:17] Why is that making you cry?
Sally: [00:22:19] No, it's not. I'm just relieved to think. It's not that she hates me that she's just being a teenager. And actually we do have a bond, to hear that I'm perhaps doing those things that my mum didn't. It's comforting. 
Tanya: [00:22:38] Knowing what you've experienced and not replicating it in those terms, those attachment terms with your children, huge respect to you. 
Sally: [00:22:48] But, that's because I went away and reset. I'm sure of it. 
Tanya: [00:22:52] I think that's right. But, I think the downside of the reset, is that you, you reset to [00:23:00] the degree that you cut off the part of yourself, that knows how to fall in love. 
Sally: [00:23:06] That makes total sense. 
Tanya: [00:23:08] Yeah, but my sense, is when your daughter says, "mom, you're needy", perhaps what she sees is that, there's something about you in relationships that struggles to know how to get needs met. And there's a fear, that if you were to allow those needs to be met, something bad would happen. Tell me a bit about your relationship with your father now. 
Sally: [00:23:52] The last time I saw him was when he came to pick up a chair that I had, I'm an [00:24:00] upholsterer. His partner had asked me to do a chair for her. And this is going back a couple of years ago. And I said, "yes, of course, of course". And she'd sent me some emails to say how perhaps it could be a breach between the family. In order to keep the communication going.
Tanya: [00:24:18] What that you upholstered the chair?
Sally: [00:24:20] That I upholstered the chair. 
Tanya: [00:24:21] That's a lot of responsibility for you. That chair was like flipping family therapy. Wasn't it? 
Sally: [00:24:26] Yeah, it was, I did not want to get it wrong. I wanted it to look amazing. 
Tanya: [00:24:31] So, anxiety again, the weight of the family dynamic.
Sally: [00:24:35] That's right. 
Tanya: [00:24:36] Oh my goodness, me. 
Sally: [00:24:37] And the fact that I felt I couldn't talk to my brother and sister. Because, I didn't want them to be upset that I had an element of communication, when they had none. 
Tanya: [00:24:49] So, they have no communication with your father? 
Sally: [00:24:51] He wont communicate with them. As an example, two Christmases ago, my dad had issued, shall we say the order that no presence [00:25:00] were to be exchanged?  He didn't need anything. My brother thought, no you can't not get your dad something for Christmas. So he sent a nice hamper to him and my dad, because my brother had gone against his instruction, sent it back. And then that was it. 
Tanya: [00:25:21] Narcissism 101. 
Sally: [00:25:24] Yeah. So, I did this chair. And I said a couple of years ago, if I do the chair, then I don't expect anything. I just would, if you can just pay for the fabric. So, I had the money for the fabric. Um, but then when my dad picked it up, he's quite a wealthy man, there was nothing, nothing. 
Tanya: [00:25:46] Not even a question. 
Sally: [00:25:47] Not even question. That was the thing. There wasn't even a question...
Tanya: [00:25:51] Not even from the partner, by the way, thanks for doing my chair. How much do I owe you? 
Sally: [00:25:55] Nothing. I wouldn't have accepted anything, because I know what I said two years [00:26:00] ago. But, it was the mere fact that they didn't seem to care. It's not a fast job. It probably timewise equated to one week of salary. Being a parent myself, how can you treat your children like that? 
Tanya: [00:26:18] But hasn't, he always treated you like that?
Sally: [00:26:20] Yeah, he has, how can he be so cruel? We've done nothing.
Tanya: [00:26:24] You are so... I mean, it's really making you cry again, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I mean... 
Sally: [00:26:28] Just disbelief. 
Tanya: [00:26:29] Sure. It is kind of completely gobsmacking, isn't it? But interestingly, it probably would have been more gobsmacking, if he thanked you warmly, gave you a hug and pressed 50 quid in your hand.
Sally: [00:26:43] Completely. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:26:44] So I suppose in a way, he was... 
Sally: [00:26:47] Being him. 
Tanya: [00:26:47] Being him, but it still hurts. That's the point. It still hurts. 
Sally: [00:26:52] And he never, ever stops hurting. 
Tanya: [00:26:56] We cannot change others. 
Sally: [00:26:58] No. 
Tanya: [00:26:58] We can change [00:27:00] ourselves. So, maybe there is something here again about boundaries, how you can create a boundary around the impact of his behavior on you enough. Enough, so you don't take it personally. 
Sally: [00:27:13] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:27:13] Do you see what I mean? 
Sally: [00:27:15] The most of the time, I just, I do feel quite shut off from him. 
Tanya: [00:27:20] But you say you, but you do send messages. You do keep in contact, why? 
Sally: [00:27:25] Because I'm his daughter and he will always be my dad. And I feel, just so that I have peace that I've not done anything wrong. 
Tanya: [00:27:39] But, when did you ever do anything wrong?
Sally: [00:27:41] No. 
Tanya: [00:27:42] Let's make a plan.
Sally: [00:27:43] Okay. That sounds good. 
Tanya: [00:27:46] There are three areas I feel need to be thought about. Do you remember what they, are you able to say what, what I've been picking up?
Sally: [00:27:57] Yes. Boundaries, with men. [00:28:00] It, the lines have blurred, how the trauma it's stopping me from emotionally going forward with potential boyfriends, then also to do with my dad. How, unless I address how I'm responding or dealing with him, I might be looking at other males in a way that's influenced by the negativity surrounding my dad.
Tanya: [00:28:31] Because, there's something there I would say that needs to shift, for you. There's been so much. I actually wonder whether it would be useful for you to do a bit of an exercise in the break.
Maybe you could just on three bits of paper, write out for yourself, this is what this means. This is why this is happening. These are the questions I want to ask Tanya, to be able to move forward, to unpack that rucksack. Yeah? Maybe we could just try and separate the [00:29:00] issues out of it. 
Sally: [00:29:01] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:29:01] Compartmentalise it, yeah. It's almost like you're doing, you know, those mindmap things that we teach kids, the spider gram. Draw a circle with you in  the middle and then, these three branches that we've identified and then, what are the branches that come off each one? And they then are questions that you would want to ask me, that we can just really try and work out...
Sally: [00:29:23] okay. 
Tanya: [00:29:24] Where you go from here. 
Sally: [00:29:26] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:29:27] I wouldn't mind you jotting down what the assertive woman in you would have wanted to say to your father and his partner. A letter not to send, I just want to hear that part of you. 
Sally: [00:29:43] Sure. 
Tanya: [00:29:44] Is that all right? 
I can do that. 
Yeah?
[00:30:00] Claudia: [00:29:59] Goodness. There was a lot, and you've mentioned, I think a mind map or a spider graph. 
Tanya: [00:30:06] We can all have these moments in our life where you have a tangled ball of wool in your head and my role is to, sort of help you just kind of, begin to untangle it. And then, lay it out as one piece of wool in front of you, and then look at where the knots are.
And then we can sort of identify them and decide which knots we can live with and which knots maybe we want to do a little bit more work to undo. These spider diagrams, it just helps you differentiate between you mean the knots in the string, if you like, and actually think, okay, so it's this, this and this.
And in a sense that process in and of itself, it was therapeutic because you begin to feel not only understanding, but some level of being a little bit more empowered and in control of your own narrative. 
Claudia: [00:30:50] We're not going to discuss the details of the man she was in love with, and the way he took his own life. But, it was incredibly [00:31:00] traumatic. I mean, she says I had to reset. Is that what it is? Just deciding you can't even go there. So, you won't look at it. 
Tanya: [00:31:07] She understands it. She can talk about it. She can think about it. She's found support for it with friends. People know that this happened. So, she's not completely in denial. When we have a trauma and it was extraordinarily traumatic. What we do in that moment is dissociate a part of ourselves. We go into shock. 
Claudia: [00:31:32] In order to survive. 
Tanya: [00:31:34] Exactly. In order to just stay conscious. 
Claudia: [00:31:37] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:31:38] The enormity of what is being dealt with gets shrunk down, and aspects of it just get cut off. The dissociation that comes with such high levels of anxiety can then continue, if [00:32:00] the whole experience, the whole trauma is not processed in a way that it enables it to be emotionally dealt with, to be able to really look at and think about, the impact of that trauma. 
Claudia: [00:32:18] I sort of wanted to phone Sally's brother and sister, who I think are frustrated that she allows her father to take up this big role in her life, where she'll message him, he doesn't message back.
She'll spend a whole week. Upholstering a beautiful chair. And he comes in and picks it up. Not even a bottle of champagne. I don't something. Why can't she tell him to sod off?  
Tanya: [00:32:39] Because he's her dad. 
Claudia: [00:32:41] But he doesn't behave like one. 
Tanya: [00:32:43] He behaves like her dad. I think he can remain her dad. I think the problem is that she just needs to recognize who her dad is. She's looking for something from him that I don't think she's going to get. 
And, if she's able to recognize that, [00:33:00] and she can choose to have whatever kind of contact with him that she chooses to, but in a way that is kind of eyes wide open, clear about the needs that she's looking to be met by him not being met. That would be, I think, really helpful for her. 
Claudia: [00:33:18] Her brother and sister, maybe, beause they were much younger when he left, they know what they're going to get. 
Tanya: [00:33:23] But, it's interesting that brother kept going for it ,until the hamper was sent back that Christmas.
Claudia: [00:33:27] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:33:28] So, maybe the chair thing... 
Claudia: [00:33:29] Who sends back a hamper? Tan, can we do... I know he's not here. Who does that? 
Tanya: [00:33:34] Someone who likes to have their instructions followed. 
Claudia: [00:33:37] You're a good person. You will never, you will never gossip with me. And that's why I love you. Let me go and get Sally.
Tanya: [00:33:50] Do you find the first part of our discussion helpful? 
Sally: [00:33:53] There was clarity. I feel like I've done some housework to my brain. 
Tanya: [00:33:57] Yeah. So, the question is, [00:34:00] how do you empower yourself moving forward? You're happy with these three areas. Just remind me how you've kind of seen them. You've done some writing. 
Sally: [00:34:08] I have done some writing. The boundaries I need to perhaps try and work out where those are. We said about the trauma and my, perhaps, inability to, to love potentially because of the trauma. Is it's such a painful recollection that I'm holding back... 
Tanya: [00:34:30] On that part of yourself that can fall in love. 
Sally: [00:34:32] Yes. Yeah. And then until I can solve or work through the relationship with my father, that perhaps I'm not going to be able to move forward with other men in my life potentially. And is that to do with trust? 
Tanya: [00:34:51] What do you think? 
Sally: [00:34:53] I think so. 
Tanya: [00:34:54] It feels like it, doesn't it? 
Sally: [00:34:56] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:34:56] How would you say it's to do with trust? 
Sally: [00:34:58] Are they gonna [00:35:00] let me down or hurt me? I suppose, the way that he did and he does. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:35:08] Are they ever going to meet your needs? Because, he continues to never meet your needs. You continue to try and...
Sally: [00:35:16] Meet his. 
Tanya: [00:35:17] And wait for the day when yours will be met. Although, I think that difficult truth is, he's not the father you want him to be. You are pushing it a door that's never going to open. 
Sally: [00:35:32] Yeah. Do I cut or do I, do I continue to do what I have been doing? And just be there in case. 
Tanya: [00:35:45] In case of what? 
Sally: [00:35:47] Like you say, I mean, he's getting older. Are we there for him then in that situation? 
Tanya: [00:35:54] Do you feel you would want to be? 
Sally: [00:35:56] My brother and sister don't want to be. 
[00:36:00] Tanya: [00:36:00] Would you want to be his carer when he is older, should he need it, because it would make you then feel needed? 
Sally: [00:36:07] Probably.
Tanya: [00:36:08] Would that meet your needs? Not sure.  
Sally: [00:36:12] Mhm. 
Tanya: [00:36:14] Would you hope that he would, at that point in his life, then be incredibly grateful to you for what you then could give him? 
Sally: [00:36:21] Dunno, but I think there's a risk to hope that that would happen. 
Tanya: [00:36:26] Is he wealthy enough to find his own care? Yes. Could you then have a more boundaried relationship with him, whereby you wouldn't have to be the person racing in to do the care. Because, you're still looking for something about you to be validated by him. But, you could have some kind of relationship with him, because you don't feel comfortable not having your father in your life, feels more healthy to me. 
Sally: [00:36:50] Okay.
Tanya: [00:36:51] And Im just searching around really. Because obviously, I think this is more of a conversation.
Sally: [00:36:55] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:36:56] I need to be clear. It's not my role, nor should it be anybody's [00:37:00] to tell you what to do. It is... 
Sally: [00:37:02] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:37:02] No one's business, at all. The fact that you're ambivalent suggests to me that it would be helpful for you to sit with somebody like me on a more regular basis, just to be able to think that one through. But, I also suggested that you maybe did think a bit about as a woman an assertive woman, what you might've said to him around the chair. Did, did you write something? 
Sally: [00:37:24] Yeah, I did. But, I went back into little girl mode. 
Tanya: [00:37:28] You know, that that's where you are now. That doesn't mean to say that moving forward with support, you can't grow into being a woman, an adult woman. Then deciding about the boundaries of her relationship with her father. 
Sally: [00:37:42] Yeah, I think it's because I've never, no, I did stand up to him once and that ended badly.
Tanya: [00:37:52] How badly? 
Sally: [00:37:54] Oh, I was on my bed and he tipped the bed upside down on me and then jumped on the bed. 
Tanya: [00:37:59] That's [00:38:00] really violent.
Sally: [00:38:01] He has a temper that just snaps. 
Tanya: [00:38:04] That's, that's abuse. 
Sally: [00:38:05] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:38:06] That's physical, psychological, emotional abuse. 
Sally: [00:38:09] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:38:10] That must have been very scary. 
Sally: [00:38:13] Yes, it was. But, that was the last time I stood up to him. 
Tanya: [00:38:17] Thinking about standing up to him on something ,like a chair and that whole thing for you, it's like, forget it.
Sally: [00:38:24] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:38:25] Yeah. 
Sally: [00:38:26] It is what it is. 
Tanya: [00:38:27] That's okay. If you don't keep trying to get something else from him. Do you mind reading me what you wrote to your father? Just so that we can hear the, the girl, only if you want to. I don't want...
Sally: [00:38:37] No, it's fine. I hope you like and enjoy your chair. I truly tried my best to make it gorgeous, in the hope when you look at it, dad, you'll think of me with...  With [00:39:00] proud thoughts and know that you have good children who are here. And I didn't know if to put here or were for you.
This is not just about me, it's about my brother and sister. None of us have done anything bad, but it's almost as if what ever any of us do is never, never good enough.
Tanya: [00:39:28] There's no validation. 
Sally: [00:39:31] No, no. Never has been. 
Tanya: [00:39:34] That letter really highlights what you have always wanted, but I suppose it also highlights what you'll never have. 
Sally: [00:39:40] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:39:42] And I think your brother and sister have seen that and in whatever way, they've managed to do it, they've probably made some peace with that.
You need help to get to a point where your father's character, behavior, pathology, if you like, [00:40:00] belongs to him. And, by understanding it, you can then begin to recognize that he is not going to make you feel complete. 
Sally: [00:40:13] No. 
Tanya: [00:40:14] At that point, someone else will be able to come into that part of you. 
Sally: [00:40:19] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:40:20] Do you think you could quickly, with me, write it from the perspective of a woman?
Sally: [00:40:27] Yeah. I'd like to. 
Tanya: [00:40:29] Right, if your daughter came home and said, this has happened with a friend and you could see that, this is a friend she kept going back to, she kept trying to get this friend to say, you're great. You're amazing. So, I'm being your daughter now, we're in a mini role-play. 
Mum, please help me. What should I say to her? How can I tell her what I feel? 
Sally: [00:40:51] Go to that person and you say, although, I've done the chair and I'm pleased [00:41:00] and proud of how it look, I would have liked to have heard that from you. I would have liked you to say thank you and how you have been, makes me feel very disrespected and I'm really hurt by that.
Tanya: [00:41:25] Tell me about your body language, as you've just said that to me. 
Sally: [00:41:29] I'm clenched. I got me arms crossed. 
Tanya: [00:41:32] But you sat up straight. 
Sally: [00:41:35] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:41:36] You've not been full, folded, forward crying. You've sat up straight. And you looked me straight in the eye when you said that. It was difficult, wasn't it? 
Sally: [00:41:44] It was difficult.
Tanya: [00:41:45] Okay. 
Sally: [00:41:46] But I did feel empowered, but I don't know if I'd ever be able to say that to him. 
Tanya: [00:41:51] But you can start to have that narrative in yourself, we're just beginning. The final part of this is, okay, so I'm being your daughter again. 
Sally: [00:41:57] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:41:58] As your daughter, I would say that's really [00:42:00] helpful mom, but the thing is, I know that I will probably go back again. Is there anything else I might need to say, in terms of setting a boundary in this relationship for me. 
Sally: [00:42:15] It's perhaps you could even tell that person that you need to protect yourself. And so you're going to step away, that it's not healthy for you. 
Tanya: [00:42:28] Do you think? What do you think? 
Sally: [00:42:30] Yeah, I wouldn't want her to be involved with that person.
Tanya: [00:42:35] But you're not talking about her now, are you? 
Sally: [00:42:36] No.
Tanya: [00:42:37] Who are you talking about? 
Sally: [00:42:38] I'm talking about me. 
Tanya: [00:42:39] Yeah. What does it feel like saying that?
Sally: [00:42:47] In a sense, a bit of relief to think that I haven't got worried about sort of think about it. If I took that action, I've never imagined myself saying that [00:43:00] before. That actually is quite, like you say, empowering. 
Tanya: [00:43:05] He continues to disempower you, you can empower yourself.
Sally: [00:43:11] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:43:13] You just did. So we were role playing you speaking to the child, you love the most in the world and obviously her brother, but your daughter. 
Sally: [00:43:20] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:43:22] But really, I wanted to help you talk to the child in you. 
Sally: [00:43:27] It worked.
Tanya: [00:43:29] You looked like you've just taken this big breath. 
Sally: [00:43:31] It is, it just feels like that thing I was dragging along isn't there. I can do that. 
Tanya: [00:43:38] My advice would be while you're working this out, by talking more with friends, by doing some narrative journaling for yourself, maybe by finding a therapist who can just help you do this piece of work, and around the fear of being loved because of your trauma. 
Sally: [00:43:55] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:43:57] I think this will be life changing for you. How your [00:44:00] father chooses to respond to the boundaries you decide to set. It's not your responsibility. 
Sally: [00:44:05] No. 
Tanya: [00:44:06] You now become an empowered woman and you set your own boundaries. 
Sally: [00:44:09] Feels like a new page has turned.
Tanya: [00:44:14] It's been a privilege. And... 
Sally: [00:44:16] Likewise. 
Tanya: [00:44:17] Thank you for the compliment to me. In terms of how much you felt able to share. And I really, I thank you for that. 
Sally: [00:44:25] Thank you.
Claudia: [00:44:33] What have you learned? 
Sally: [00:44:35] That its, it's alright for me to decide that I don't want to continue a relationship with my dad. 
Claudia: [00:44:46] Yeah, that's amazing. 
Sally: [00:44:48] Yeah. I didn't even think it possible. 
Claudia: [00:44:52] But even just the fact that you're saying that... 
Sally: [00:44:54] Exactly. It's an option. 
Claudia: [00:44:56] Who are you going to phone first to [00:45:00] say, "something's happened and I've felt slightly different".
Sally: [00:45:04] My brother probably. 
Claudia: [00:45:06] That’s what I wanted you to say.
Sally: [00:45:08] Yeah. Because he'll get it. 
Claudia: [00:45:10] Yeah. 
Sally: [00:45:11] So yeah, it's almost as if my course is clearer.
Claudia: [00:45:15] Course is clearer, you might go and meet somebody amazing. Yeah, you might.
Sally: [00:45:19] I'm not even going there, yet. 
Claudia: [00:45:21] You don’t have to. When you do let us know. 
Sally: [00:45:23] Okay. 
Claudia: [00:45:24] We'll meet you for cocktails, while we quiz him. 
Sally: [00:45:26] Yes. That would be good.
Claudia: [00:45:27] We’re terrifying together. 
Sally: [00:45:29] I'm determined that friends are gonna vet them. 
Claudia: [00:45:31] Yeah exactly. Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much. 
Sally: [00:45:35] No, thank you, Claud.
Claudia: [00:45:46] A huge penny landed. What was it like for you? 
Tanya: [00:45:53] It sort of crystallised something, didn't it, for me? And I think then with Sally, we could see it together that, she still has [00:46:00] this childlike need for validation from her father. It's impossible, I think for her to navigate the boundaries of an attachment with a male, when all she feels like as a needy child.
So, by then asking her to inhabit a different role. I alked her to be a mother, which she can only be based on adult, she was able then to speak a different kind of truth to herself that was empowered. 
Yes.
Rather than the helpless child, who constantly feels disempowered. 
Claudia: [00:46:33] Final comment. Another phrase I loved, I loved the session with Sally, was when she came in and we just haven't discussed that, after the second session, you said, how are you? And she said, I've just done some housework in my brain. I thought we could all sometimes do a bit of that. Lift up a few boxes, dust something, take something to the charity shop. 
Tanya: [00:46:52] I think it's how to live as yourself. And that means how to understand your own chaos, and how to manage that chaos. [00:47:00] And I always think the best way to deal with chaos, is to do a little bit of, sort of tidying up first. 
Claudia: [00:47:05] Yes. I'm so pleased. Sally came in. That's all. That's what I want to say to you. 
Tanya: [00:47:10] Why, why, why? Tell me... 
Claudia: [00:47:11] I'm just delighted. Just because she left different.
Tanya: [00:47:16] I think today's been a good day. 
Claudia: [00:47:18] Me too. 
I'm going to give you a tube of biscuits. 
Tanya: [00:47:21] Why a tube? 
Claudia: [00:47:22] Because the best ones coming at you.
Do remember to subscribe, to get more of these episodes, comment, rate, and tell everybody you know, to listen too. It helps us to keep making them, if you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this episode, please see our program notes for information about further support and advice. And if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here, please email briefly describing your issue to how@somethingelse.com.
That's how@somethingelse.com without the G. [00:48:00] Next time we meet Julie. 
Julie: [00:48:02] I want everything to be perfect for my kids. I don't want them to go through what I went through... and I do get cross, because they have this amazing eye for  (inaudable)  even care, you know, they don't, they take it for granted.
Claudia: [00:48:18] This Podcast was made by the team at Somethin’ Else.
The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs, the assistant producer is Grace Laiker, the producer of Selina Ream, and the executive producer is Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening.