Claudia: [00:00:00] Please note this episode contains some emotional content, including discussion around child sexual abuse, and may not be suitable for all listeners. 
If making a mistake means they get such rage from you, I wonder how your children are going to be able to make mistakes and learn from them. 
Julie: [00:00:27] I feel like I can't control it.
Claudia: [00:00:30] Hello, and thank you so much for choosing, How Did We Get Here?, The podcast where me Claudia Winkleman and my fantastic friend, Clinical Psychologist, Professor Tanya Byron, look at some of the difficulties that people face either themselves or with those closest to them. Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions, whilst I'm listening in from another room. 
In the break and at the end, I ask Tan bit about her process and we explore the issues that are raised. This time, we meet Julie, who is married and has a son who is [00:01:00] seven and a 10 year old daughter, who challenges her regularly. Julie is worried that the difficulties she has now with her daughter will be amplified when the teen years approach. She discovers that events in the past have served as a trigger. 
Julie: [00:01:15] I wanted to smash him in the face with the bottle. I was just like, and I couldn't, I felt, I couldn't say anything because obviously nobody else knows about what happened. And he's not had a hard life, nothing has happened to him.
Claudia: [00:01:27] Let's go and meet Julie.
Julie, thank you so much for coming in. Why are you here? 
Julie: [00:01:38] I want to make some changes at home and I'm just not quite sure where to begin. 
Claudia: [00:01:44] Describe home. 
Julie: [00:01:45] So, I've got a seven year old boy and ten-year-old, nearly, 11 year old daughter. And the easiest way to describe it is, probably, tense.
Claudia: [00:01:55] I want to say, who gets angry? You mentioned flare ups. Do [00:02:00] you and your husband get angry?
Julie: [00:02:01] No, he is the most laid back man on the planet, which is just a godsend. I will tend to pootle along, fairly level, but then a button is pressed and it's kind of difficult.
Claudia: [00:02:16] No, I'm the baddy in my house as well, because my husband is hor... I mean, it's impossible to make him grumpy. Tell me about the little puffins. They're not actual puffins, humans. 
Julie: [00:02:25] No, but that would be nice, if there were puffins. My oldest is nearly 11. Since she was born, she was always defiant and full of determination. If she was going to do something, she was going to do it. I think at the moment it's fairly unpleasant, most days.
Claudia: [00:02:42] So, it's endless battles, over quite small things. 
Julie: [00:02:45] Yeah. And we're not people who just let them get away with things. I would say there have always been boundaries and rules and even things like, you know, it's coming up to bedtime and she'll say, "Oh, well actually I want to go outside of my scooter". 
Claudia: [00:02:58] Well, that's a solid no.
Julie: [00:02:59] That's a solid no, [00:03:00] and she, her answer, "I'm going anyway." Open the front door and she goes. And then, the youngest one who is the opposite, he's afraid of his own shadow. He seems to now be copying her behavior and that. All  (ianaudible) because I can't handle it with two of you just ...
Claudia: [00:03:15] yeah, but also, he's learned, if you open the front door at 07:30 and getting a scooter, you get all of mummy.
Julie: [00:03:21] Yeah. But something needs to change. 
Claudia: [00:03:22] It's so difficult. Isn't it? I'm so pleased you're here. 
Julie: [00:03:25] Thank you. 
Claudia: [00:03:26] And Tanya will come in and I'll talk to you at the end. Is that all right?
Julie: [00:03:29] That's lovely. Thank you.
Tanya: [00:03:34] Do you always work at this speed? 
Julie: [00:03:37] What speed? 
Tanya: [00:03:37] You're fast! You're fast.
Julie: [00:03:39] Am I fast? 
Tanya: [00:03:39] Yeah. 
Julie: [00:03:40] Uh, yes I do. If you ask my kids what phrase I say most often, it's, "let's just crack on". 
Tanya: [00:03:47] Life moves at a pace. 
Julie: [00:03:49] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:03:49] Sometimes, maybe a frenetic pace.
Julie: [00:03:51] Yeah. I've worked from home since my youngest was one. I've become very good at just going, "right, okay. It's down tools at [00:04:00] half past five, six o'clock, whatever it is. 
Tanya: [00:04:02] But, it sounds busy. 
Julie: [00:04:04] It is busy and they are both very active kids. And so, prior to lockdown, every night of the week, we were either going to football practice or we're going to, uh... 
Tanya: [00:04:14] So, when did you get any time for you? 
Julie: [00:04:16] Oh, if there are none.
Tanya: [00:04:18] It's making you tear. 
It does. Because, I'm so 
Julie: [00:04:20] tired of it.
Tanya: [00:04:21] You're tired. You feel like you're running on fumes and you're exhausted. 
Julie: [00:04:26] Because my daughter will even say to me, it's always what you want, mommy and I think," are you joking me?" It's never what I want. 
Tanya: [00:04:32] What do you want? 
Julie: [00:04:33] Every single birthday and mother's day, I say, "Oh, what, what present would you like mummy"?
Tanya: [00:04:39] And every single time I say, I just want us all to get on. 
Julie: [00:04:43] But it's upsetting you, because this isn't how you imagined it was going to be. 
Tanya: [00:04:46] No. And to be fair, it's not been how I imagined it was going to be since the day she was born. 
Julie: [00:04:51] Tell me why.
Tanya: [00:04:52] She was beautiful and healthy. And I had everything to be grateful for.
Julie: [00:04:58] And yet the [00:05:00] 18 months that followed, I felt like I was dying. She wouldn't sleep. Just, everything was a battle. 
Tanya: [00:05:08] Do you think you were struggling with depression, postnatal, depression? 
Julie: [00:05:12] Yeah. I think in retrospect, I should have gone to the doctors. I didn't want to admit that I was a failure. I felt, you know, I know I repeatedly, I should be able to do this.
Tanya: [00:05:21] It sounds to me like you were able to do it. 
Julie: [00:05:23] It was just hard. I just, everything I do, I want to do it perfectly. I did talk to a counselor. She said, you know, what you need to understand is, this was almost bound to happen. Because you've kind of gone through school and you've not found it too difficult. You've achieved well, you've got a decent job and you've been in control of it all. And now, you're way out of control.
Tanya: [00:05:46] It's something about control for you. 
Julie: [00:05:49] Yeah. Massively. 
Tanya: [00:05:50] You said something earlier, you said. And I thought to myself, you faced harder than this, you should be able to do this. Is there something specific that, you're... 
Julie: [00:05:59] You know, [00:06:00] I've been bullied at school and my parents had a bit of a strange, volatile relationship that would kind of be up and down. And, and I think as a middle child and only daughter, I always seem to play the role of smoothing all that over. When I was kind of 10 or 11, I sort of had a period of sexual abuse. I got cancer at 23, was given a one-in-four chance of dying came through that okay, I kind of, I just think how much more. 
Tanya: [00:06:31] Gosh, you're full up with it.
Julie: [00:06:33] Sorry. 
Tanya: [00:06:33] Please. don't apologize. You're talking about a childhood with parents, where their relationship was volatile. So, presumably you were quite a vigilant child. Kind of, on red alert for when voices would be raised, tempers would flare. You're nodding. So, I think I'm describing. 
Julie: [00:06:49] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was a lot going on, in that whole period.  I'd actually developed Petit Mal Epilepsy, as well. It was stressful, but my parents knew none of it. They still don't know anything about the abuse, because [00:07:00] I'm not going to add that onto everything else for them to deal with. 
Tanya: [00:07:03] As much as you want to say, and that can include nothing. What were the circumstances of the abuse?
Julie: [00:07:09] Basically, whenever my parents were out of the house, my older brother would just go, come on, come into my bedroom, let's do this, let's do that. And I just, I just get kind of snapshot, memories and feelings of like rising bile, not wanting to do things, but not feeling able to say I don't want to. And if I say, I don't think I want it.
He'd go, "oh, you're a chicken. You're a chicken".
Tanya: [00:07:31] And how old were you? 
Julie: [00:07:35] Ten.
Tanya: [00:07:35] How old was he? 
Julie: [00:07:36] Uh, three years older. 
Tanya: [00:07:40] And your daughter, who you're struggling with, is how old now?
Julie: [00:07:43] Ten. 
Tanya: [00:07:44] Right.
Julie: [00:07:45] It just, I want everything to be perfect for my kids. I don't want them to go through, what I went through. When I was saying to Claudia, that I just feel like this burst of temper, because I get to a point, I just [00:08:00] think, "do you know how much worse your life could be?" 
Tanya: [00:08:03] So, what does that tell you, about your reaction to them in those moments?
Julie: [00:08:07] It's about me. I know I need to turn it around, but I don't know how to. 
Tanya: [00:08:11] I do. So, we're okay. We just, we just got to talk a little bit more. 
Julie: [00:08:16] Okay. We'd just kind of we clash. And I think, because of the fact that I am vigilant, I don't, I don't miss anything.
Tanya: [00:08:22] Does she get told it when you see it?
Julie: [00:08:25] Yeah. What I won't have is lies and I say this to them all the time. You know, I'll take anything, but don't lie to me. And, she would lie like it's breathing. 
Tanya: [00:08:34] Right. What sorts of things has she lie about? 
Julie: [00:08:38] We were in town and in this little boutiquey shop. I said, "Oh, look at that", and it was just like a little blob of metal with a embossed bumblebee on it. I think they're a pound, each two pounds each. She didn't say she particularly liked it. 
Anyway, we get outside the shop and my mum was with us and she went to hold my daughter's hand and she drew out hand way. [00:09:00] And I said whats in your hand and she nothing. That's, well, I think there is, so you better show me and she opened her hand and she'd stolen it.
Tanya: [00:09:10] Do you think children do that, sometimes? 
Julie: [00:09:12] Not my child. I was so furious and even to think about it, now. 
Tanya: [00:09:15] You look absolutely furious. Can I ask you a question? Because you use the word perfect a lot. You are so hugely deficit-focused and if making a mistake means they get such rage from you. I wonder how your children are going to be able to make mistakes and learn from them.
Julie: [00:09:35] I dont know. I feel like I can't control it. 
Claudia: [00:09:38] I'd just like to pause the tape, as I have a question. I've written down deficit-focus, which I hadn't heard you use that phrase before. What does that mean? 
Tanya: [00:09:48] It's about where is your focus? Are you, do you focus on strengths or do you focus on deficits? And the deficit-focus is interesting, because it's often something that people who have high levels of perfectionism [00:10:00] will often struggle with. 
It's that sense of almost, never being able to be satisfied with how things are, because there's always something that could be better. And that's what you notice. But that, for me, links back to the hypervigilant child with parents who were obviously in high levels of conflict with all the other stuff, that she's described from her childhood. Being sexually abused, being bullied, you get a sense of these hypervigilant children, just sort of thinking, okay, what's going wrong? What could go wrong? What will go wrong? 
And that's sort of how she looks at Sarah, her daughter. That just speaks to high, high, high levels of anxiety, which then lead to a sort of catastrophic interpretation of a sort of normal, child behavior. You know, taking something from a shop, stuff that kids do.
And, it's part of our journey with them to sort of help them learn the boundaries of [00:11:00] behavior and self-regulation in terms of their own behavior and their own emotion. But deficit-focus is unhelpful because it means you miss what's good. And you're constantly pointing out what's bad, which only creates a dynamic of conflict and, unhappiness. 
Claudia: [00:11:13] Yeah, and disappointment. 
Tanya: [00:11:15] Exactly. 
Claudia: [00:11:16] Okay. Thank you for explaining that back to the session. 
Julie: [00:11:21] And I do get cross. It's like a switch and it just goes so quick, before I get chance to pull it back. 
Tanya: [00:11:27] I think that's from issues that you had dealt with from a very young child, where you felt out of control. You must have felt very, very frightened and wondering when the next thing was going to come along that was going to be very hard and very upsetting. But you couldn't manage, you couldn't control, you couldn't make better. You couldn't tell your parents what was going on with your brother. So, you just had to put up with it until it stopped. 
Julie: [00:11:55] Pretty much, yeah. 
Tanya: [00:11:57] Have you and your brother talked about it since?
[00:12:00] Julie: [00:11:59] No, he, I think pretends it didn't happen. When we might see each other at Christmas or, or whatever, a family do. But I don't go out  of my way to seek him out. You know, like last Christmas, we got together and we kind of, we had this, kind of drinks thing with my brother. My two brothers were there and other family and my dad and my older brother started, he was drunk, but started going on about how he had had a hard life. 
I wanted to smash him in the face with a bottle. I was just like, and I couldn't, I felt I couldn't say anything because obviously nobody else knows about what happened. And he's not, had a hard life, like nothing has happened to him. How dare you sit there and say, you've had a tough time of it. You've not. 
Tanya: [00:12:48] Who knows what happened? Does your husband know what happened?
Julie: [00:12:50] Yes, he knows. 
Tanya: [00:12:52] But, you've never really talked to anybody about it? 
Julie: [00:12:54] No, no. I don't even, I'm cross with myself, because I should have just said something at the time. You [00:13:00] know, my parents are both decent people. 
Tanya: [00:13:03] Be very careful, don't do what a lot of adults do, when they reflect back on the abuse they suffered when they were children is as an adult, now tell yourself what you should have done. Of course, now, as an adult, of course you think I should have said something. 
You were a child, in a home that doesn't sound emotionally, very safe. A school that didn't feel safe. You were being bullied, struggling with epilepsy.  I can completely see why you didn't say anything. I think given everything else you're carrying with this experience, I give you permission not to be crossed with yourself. I feel this switch that you say gets flicked, when you're with the kids. It's a bit like what you felt when you were in front of your brother, going on about his life and you what did, you say, 'I wanted to smash a bottle in his face'. 
Julie: [00:13:53] I wouldnt have done it. I wouldn't...
Tanya: [00:13:54] No, but you're describing an intense feeling of rage. [00:14:00] And then, along comes Sarah, your beautiful daughter and life is now your life on your terms. And then, she isn't the baby that you want her to be. And that's not a criticism of you, because who wants to have a baby that doesn't settle and doesn't feed and is exhausting. But, I think for you, it's an even bigger issue of, again, even my own child takes away my sense of feeling in control. And I think, every time your kids are naughty, it absolutely freaks you out.
Julie: [00:14:38] It absolutely does. I mean, after she stole that thing, I just, furious with her, as it was where we parked the car, we had to walk past the Magistrates' Court. And, I just stood her in front of the court and I said, "that's where you're going to end up, if you carry on like that". 
Tanya: [00:14:53] So your fear, your fear about her future.
Julie: [00:14:56] Yeah. And I said, to her, I'm telling you now, if I catch you or hear about [00:15:00] you stealing anything in the future, I will take you to the police station. I will not have a thief in my house. 
Tanya: [00:15:04] Your response is right, in the sense that you want her to learn, not to steal. A hundred percent. But your response to me, seems excessive and driven by your catastrophic futuring, that she's gained to be 15 pregnant, drinking alcohol and nicking from shops. I just have a... 
Julie: [00:15:26] No, absolutely, I'm to be honest, since she was about six, not in front of her, but I've said to my mum, "she will be pregnant at 15, just to spite me". 
Tanya: [00:15:35] How old was she when you said that? 
Julie: [00:15:36] Six. 
Tanya: [00:15:37] I mean, if you're seeing pregnant, fifteen-year-old when you're looking at your six year old, you're kind of, really sort of galloping ahead with her. I wonder whether given that mommy can really lose it sometimes, either there's a level of desensitization to what you're trying to tell her, because, Oh, mommy's, shouting again, or getting cross again.
 [00:16:00] I wonder whether there is a skill that she has in arguing and being defiant, because you argue with her. So, you're kind of enabling her to learn. There's something about your emotional reaction to her from the minute she arrived here, that has got in the way of you being a more relaxed mother. Being assertive, setting boundaries, but also enabling your child to learn. I just feel like she panics you. She really panics you. 
Julie: [00:16:32] Definitely. 
Tanya: [00:16:33] Why don't you stop shouting?
Julie: [00:16:34] I've tried and tried and saying. right, you know, I will ask once in a calm voice for you to do something. If it doesn't happen, I will ask a second time in a firm voice, and then there will be consequences and it's just, I may as well talk to the wall. 
Tanya: [00:16:48] But then you do the consequences.
Julie: [00:16:50] Yeah, and then they rage about them. 
Tanya: [00:16:51] Fine. Okay. They're children. 
Julie: [00:16:54] Yeah. I'm the bad guy, again. 
Tanya: [00:16:57] I hear that, he's the one that nice, wonderful husband in the world. And [00:17:00] he's the most laid back man. But does he need to step up a bit? Are you bad cop? Is he good cop? 
Julie: [00:17:05] Probably. 
Tanya: [00:17:06] Does he set boundaries and consequences? 
Julie: [00:17:08] It's always me, that they'll call... 
Tanya: [00:17:11] But, maybe that's a scenario you unwittingly have set up, because you do like to be in control. 
Julie: [00:17:16] Yeah. Possibly. 
Tanya: [00:17:17] And if your husband was to step in and do things, would you possibly point out to him where it wasn't the right way to do it? 
Julie: [00:17:23] Perhaps I'm creating a situation where I'm, I'm the one putting those consequences into play more often.
Tanya: [00:17:28] It will be worth you and he talking about it, just so that you get a sense of whether the children get a sense of equity. How is she at school? Is she this badly behaved at school? 
No, they think 
Julie: [00:17:39] she's wonderful. At the end of last term, we had a call from the headmistress to say she'd been upsetting another girl, but it turned out, she was kind of pointing out to her where she thought she'd gone wrong. Basically sticking her nose in where it wasn't wanted. And then, that was making this girl feel bad, quite understandably. And I said, what's it got [00:18:00] to do with you? Leave her alone. 
Tanya: [00:18:01] So you told her off. 
Julie: [00:18:03] Well, yeah, because I got a call from the headmistress.
Tanya: [00:18:06] I'm just wondering when you talk to her about things, when you have a discussion and try and understand why she does things... 
Julie: [00:18:13] She gets very defensive about it. 
Tanya: [00:18:15] Probably because she gets told off quite a lot. 
Julie: [00:18:17] Well, she should behave better then. You know? 
Tanya: [00:18:20] Now I feel like you're telling me off. 
Julie: [00:18:21] I'm not its just it's officious. We just go around in this circle. 
Tanya: [00:18:24] Fundamentally, she's good at school. 
Julie: [00:18:26] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:18:27] It feels to me that your daughter has the capacity to emotionally regulate, but context will determine whether she does or she doesn't. So, when she's in an environment where the boundaries and consequences are clear, there's not a lot of emotional shouting around her. She chooses to stick with the rules. So, the question is what's different? What is she getting at school, that she isn't getting at home? Because school is where it sounds like, she can be the best version of herself. [00:19:00] She is a sweet, smart girl. 
Julie: [00:19:03] You know, if we're in town and there's, you know, a homeless person on that, but she'll be the first to go, "oh, I'm going to give them some of my pocket money. I'll..". You know, "I could give them half my Twix", or whatever it might be. She is, she is ,she's a kind girl. 
Tanya: [00:19:18] It's difficult for you to accept that as a child, she's going to do things that are uncomfortable or inappropriate. She's going to make mistakes. And, I think your reactions, then mean it's difficult for her to learn not to do anything other than push back. 
Julie: [00:19:37] Yeah, they do. I find it difficult to apply a consequence and then get shouting and not react to that. And that probably does go back to before. Um... 
Tanya: [00:19:50] Why, tell me why? You're absolutely right. 
Julie: [00:19:53] Because, I didn't fight back. Did I? 
Tanya: [00:19:55] No, that's absolutely right.
[00:20:00] Julie: [00:20:00] And that's, you know, and this is why I came, because I know it's not right, but I don't know how to fix it.
Tanya: [00:20:06] I feel like you're doing a lot right. I just think you spend your whole time looking at what's going wrong, because it's the only way you can feel safe. 
Julie: [00:20:15] I shouldn't be projecting my frustration and anger onto them. 
Tanya: [00:20:20] But, you're human. But, if you know it and you can see it, then we can work out how you can find a different way. I hear about a 10 year old girl, who tries hard at school, works hard at school is bright, does well, is happy, is fearless, has friends, can be nosy and bossy, who can stand her ground, sometimes, really unhelpfully with her mother, who she's quite like, who will see people who are more vulnerable than her and even at the age of 10 will say, "mommy, I think I want [00:21:00] them to have some of my pocket money", or "mommy, I think maybe they can have half of my chocolate bar", who does impulsive, daredevil things, like take a little thing from a shop. 
She sounds like a pretty cool ten-year-old to me, who get some things wrong. It seems to be developmentally getting an awful lot of things right. I suspect, what's quite difficult for her, is that she might sometimes feel that she's letting her mother down. And she's not good enough for her mum. Okay. Are you hearing anything I'm saying? I'm wondering if I'm saying anything helpful. I'm wonder what you're picking up. 
Julie: [00:21:50] You've you've reaffirmed what I already knew, which was that it's coming from me and my reactions are not helpful. 
Tanya: [00:21:57] I think that, you [00:22:00] do risk creating a daughter who will be incredibly rebellious, because you give her no room to make a mistake. And my sense is, what she gets from you are high levels of emotionality. And that isn't because you're a bad mother, that's because in yourself you're still a broken child. 
You need to be able to let go of this idea of perfect. You need to accept the concept of being good enough and you have to find some time for yourself. And in that time, I think you need somebody who can be with you, while you talk through what sounds to me like a really challenging childhood. 
Julie: [00:22:46] That feels like going back, though. 
Tanya: [00:22:49] But sometimes the only way we can move forward, is just to go back a bit. There are things that you are raging about, [00:23:00] that you've never had the opportunity to really express. And you have coped through life by keeping going, but actually, the reality is life isn't always like that. And when life isn't like that, I think it absolutely throws you. 
Julie: [00:23:17] Yeah, it feels devastating. 
Tanya: [00:23:19] Let's have a break.
Julie: [00:23:20] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:23:21] And then, let's have a think about something that we can do in the second part of today. So maybe, what I could do is just have a quick glance over the actual strategies. So, things that you and your husband do around behavior, and maybe I can just help you look at it and tweak it a bit. So, you can think about, how you parent in a way that feels more pragmatic and long game rather than emotional and fraught with anxiety. 
Julie: [00:23:48] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:23:50] What I'd also like you to do, if you can, if you can bear it, just jot down what needs to be heard, in order for you to be able to leave it where it belongs, so that when your [00:24:00] daughter comes home late from a party pissed at 15, you're not going to have a breakdown. What is going to enable you to feel stronger as a containing mother? 
Julie: [00:24:11] Make a plan. 
We love a plan. To have a plan, that we could crack on with. 
Tanya: [00:24:15] Alright.
Claudia: [00:24:29] It feels to me like you have two buckets, if you will, that need to be unpacked and given a nice rinse. Uh, one is what happened to her when she was a little girl, which I think you alluded, I might be wrong, to the fact that she needs to go and get some professional help with it.
Tanya: [00:24:49] There's so much there. She needs someone really kind, well-trained working from a trauma-informed basis. You know, as a therapist who can [00:25:00] just provide the space and the support and the understanding, for her to process really challenging issues in her childhood. 
Claudia: [00:25:10] Exactly. So that's one. And then the other one, which I am also fascinated by, is whether maybe, you would look at, cause I've seen you do it before, and goodness knows you've done it for me, the day-to-day life of Julie's household and how that's working ,and why her expectations are never met.
It really touched me. She was really crying when she said, just on Mother's Day and my birthday, all I want is for us to get on. And, I remember you saying to me, because my daughter went through a phase of, as you will remember, only wearing electric, pink and crying if I suggested Heather Gray or God forbid biscuit, and you went Claude, pick your battles. So, she walked around in fluorescent pink for good. 
Tanya: [00:25:56] Like Cyndi Lauper for years. 
Claudia: [00:25:57] Because, she feels to me at home, [00:26:00] when she describes it, like a policeman who nobody is listening to. What do you think about that bucket? 
Tanya: [00:26:07] Yeah, I think something practical around, how to just, (deep breath)  take a breath. 
Claudia: [00:26:12] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:26:13] Maybe her husband steps up and, you know, he manages things and does it in his own way. And that's all fine. I think for Julie, it's about giving herself permission, to not have to try so hard for everything to be perfect. And then, finding that it would be a lot better.
Claudia: [00:26:27] Yeah.
 I can't wait to see what she's written down. 
Tanya: [00:26:30] Okay. 
Claudia: [00:26:30] I love your tasks.
Tanya: [00:26:31] Thank you.
Claudia: [00:26:32] I will get Julie in.
Tanya: [00:26:47] How did you feel about our chat?
Julie: [00:26:49] I get cross with myself that I'm allowing, I think probably, primarily the stuff from around when I was 10 or 11, to just impact [00:27:00] what's happening now. Instead of just going, "yep, do you know what that was shit, but I won't give it any more power than it has already taken". 
Tanya: [00:27:06] Well, maybe today is the beginning of that process.
Julie: [00:27:09] Thats the trouble. You hold him for so long. 
Tanya: [00:27:11] You've held it in for so long and, oh my gosh, if you don't deserve the space to do this, I don't know who does.
Julie: [00:27:19] I think that's the hard bit for me, I know that none, none of what happened was my fault. But knowing that and feeling differently about it, are two different things. 
Tanya: [00:27:28] Yeah. Because, we've got the rational part of our brain that can kind of understand things that are sort of, you know, more cognitively at a sort of thoughtful, pragmatic level. And you are, you're very smart and you are, you're a problem solver. You think things through. 
So. I know, you know it, but the emotion that has come with it, shows that that's the bit that you just need some space, where you've never been given permission to go, "um, hello, can anyone notice what I need"? And I think your need as a mother is, [00:28:00] and I understand this as a mother, myself, for your children to just not do your head in every day. We need to find a way for you to just enjoy this more. 
Julie: [00:28:10] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:28:11] Even the crappy times. 
Julie: [00:28:12] Yeah. I need to, I need to care about less. I think. 
Tanya: [00:28:15] It's okay if you you set a boundary and a consequence and they get upset. It would be weird if they didn't, P.S. But it's so interesting as well, because actually children do you crave structure and routine and boundaries. So children and will say, ah, I wish it was just yeah Minecraft and snacks. 
But actually, what we find in terms of behavioral and psychological outcomes for those children, is they are much more unhappy than children who have kind of certainty, structure, routine, clarity around the boundaries around the consequences. And that's why children often are the best version of themselves at school. Beause, that's what they get at school. And I think that's what you try to provide at home. And you do it really well, except for the fact [00:29:00] that you bring too much emotion to it. So, that's what we've got to try and work out. 
Julie: [00:29:04] In the break, I was just writing now, you know, what do I actually want? And the number one on the list was, I just want a happier home. 
Tanya: [00:29:12] Less conflict 
Julie: [00:29:12] And that mistakes are okay. 
Tanya: [00:29:14] So do you know the best way to have less conflict? 
Julie: [00:29:19] No. 
Tanya: [00:29:20] When you can feel the frustration rising, take a breath and walk away. Settle the anxiety, think it through and then decide what you want to do about it.
Julie: [00:29:36] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:29:37] I think, part of the message I want you to take from today is, I think everybody could do a bit less. I think you could just mess about with the kids and play and have a laugh. 
Julie: [00:29:50] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:29:51] What practically are you doing now? And how can I help you just shift it and change it a little bit, and just find a different rhythm to how [00:30:00] you and your husband, parent, which doesn't feel so frenetic and allows your children just to kind of learn.
Julie: [00:30:06] Yeah. When I was reflecting on it, what occurred to me was it's quite, uh, ad hoc and mood-dependent. 
Tanya: [00:30:13] Okay. So is it fair to say, therefore, there isn't something that feels consistent? 
Julie: [00:30:19] So, there's a clear message there. I will ask you once you'll ask, be asked a second time by me. If it doesn't have, there will be a consequence, but the level of consequence can vary. So, to give you an example, so if they're on an iPad, if they don't come off when they're asked to, they'll typically lose it for the following day. 
But then, if actually it's a day when they've been poking each other, prodding each other and I've had it up to here before, I've really thought it through the consequence is out of my mouth and it's, you've lost it for the rest of the week. And of course, once you've said it, you can't then really back out of it, because that's...
Tanya: [00:30:53] Also, you've kind of shot yourself in the foot, because what about tomorrow? When they're doing something, what are you going to do? 
Julie: [00:30:58] Exactly. 
Tanya: [00:30:58] Do you know what I mean? So it's [00:31:00] about just being clearer. You're saying, I'm going to ask you once nicely, then I'm going to ask you once firmly. And then, if there's no joy on that one, there will be a consequence. 
Julie: [00:31:08] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:31:09] I think that's great. But what you haven't really got clear, for yourself between you and your husband and definitely not for the children, is a consistency amongst those consequential outcomes. 
Julie: [00:31:23] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:31:23] So, that's what we do. 
Julie: [00:31:24] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:31:24] Because if you're properly angry, you'll cancel Christmas. 
Julie: [00:31:28] My son was throwing this huge tantrum and he has this thing, where he says he wants something and then, you know, so he might say, "Oh, I want a cuddle mommy", and I go, "okay, come on then, let's sit on the sofa and have a cuddle". And then he'll just run off, and I'm like, "Oh, I thought you wanted to cuddle. Nope". And the second I get up to go, he'll roll about on the floor going, "but I wanted to cuddle". 
Tanya: [00:31:47] Okay. So let's just do a quick bit of behavioral psychology training. We'll look at opera and conditioning. What it describes is the following. The response that follows the behavior [00:32:00] will determine whether, the behavior continues and is strengthened or extinguishes. If we look at that example, you just gave me with your son and his Oscar winning performance. How much attention did you give him? 
Julie: [00:32:15] He had undivided attention. I've taken it and I've escalated it.
Tanya: [00:32:19] And you've also given him so much negative attention following it, that perversely you've reinforced the behavior and made it more likely to happen again. 
Julie: [00:32:29] What would you advise you to do differently? Offer it twice at most, and then say, well it's off the table now. Done, we're not talking about it anymore.
Tanya: [00:32:37] A hundred percent.  What stops you drawing a line? 
Julie: [00:32:41] Because I think he's learned to do it primarily with cuddles and I find it really hard to deny my child's cuddles. Never once when I was a child, did my parents say that they loved me. One of the things you say to yourself is you know, "I'd never did that to my children". You know, when I went to university, my dad stood on the doorstep of the [00:33:00] halls of residence and shook my hand.
Tanya: [00:33:02] Wow. 
Julie: [00:33:03] I guess, maybe, my fairly bright seven year old son has tweaked the actually... 
Tanya: [00:33:09] If I go, if I push that button... 
Julie: [00:33:10] I pushed the cuddle button. 
Tanya: [00:33:12] I've got her. 
Julie: [00:33:12] I've got her and I'm getting really angry. And you know, I'll say to him why, you know, why, you don't need to do this. 
Tanya: [00:33:18] So, you're over talking to him again. Loads of attention, you do overtalk to your children, give them tons and tons of attention. Okay. So, here you've explained how again, all thanks to lovely Claudia, the bucket to stuff that we're looking at now, which is the behavior and how you manage the behavior. In that scenario you gave me with the cuddles, is impacted on, by the bucket one stuff. My childhood's not being shown enough love, not being shown enough affection. Okay, so you can see how it's so important to keep those buckets really separate. Do you want your son to learn ,that in close relationships with people, he can demand a cuddle [00:34:00] in whatever way he wants and he should expect it should just be given to him.
Julie: [00:34:04] No. 
Tanya: [00:34:05] Exactly. He's not learning anything. So, love is also tough love. Tough love isn't shaking your child's hand or ignoring the fact that they're clearly distressed and things are clearly going on, but I'm too busy in my own world of hurt and pain with my spouse. And I just can't be bothered to look at what my children might need.
Tough love is for me, to be the best parent for you. I need to help you learn how to give and receive love. And in the same way, if he slapped you around the face and said, "give me a cuddle now". You wouldn't cuddle them, because you'd think. I don't want my child to think that's what you do and end up slapping his partners.
Julie: [00:34:51] No. 
Tanya: [00:34:53] This is where you need tough love. Okay, darling. We've said, once mommy's here for cuddle, here's the last time mommy's here, come and [00:35:00] have a cuddle otherwise Mummy's going to have to go. He doesn't and he flaps around you, then get up and leave. Yeah. What would then happen? 
Julie: [00:35:09] He would rage and rage and rage because he would be expecting us...
Tanya: [00:35:11] And how does that make you feel? Like you're the worst mother in the world, and you're not giving your child the love he's wanting and you're letting him down.
Julie: [00:35:18] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:35:19] Isn't there something quite important for us all to learn, that we can't always get our needs met, when we expect and demand it, you struggle to say no. And you struggle when they're badly behaved children, because somehow you feel like it's an indication that you're just not good enough as their mother. 
Julie: [00:35:36] Yeah. There's buttons that they've obviously learned they can press. 
Tanya: [00:35:40] And that's bucket one again, isn't it? It's not, you have to go back there and relive it in some awful way. I think it's just, it's really just for you to kind of sort your buckets out. And as you say, be able to put down bucket one, when you carrying bucket two, which is the stuff to do with your kids. You're good with the, I'm only going to ask you [00:36:00] twice and then, there's a consequence. You're not good with the clarity around the consequence.
Julie: [00:36:04] No, and I feel like with all this kind of bubbling frustration in the house, there's been more kind of lashing out and prodding each other, scratching and I felt like there should be a different consequence for that. 
Tanya: [00:36:16] One way you can think about this and this is often also with, you know, slightly older kids, who've got their own phones and stuff. Is you kind of decide, as parents how much time they've got every day on their iPad or...
Julie: [00:36:28] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:36:28] Basically everybody wakes up in the morning with a full deck of cards in their hand. Okay. So, they get in the day during the week. I dunno. So thirty minutes of iPad time, and they've also got an hour of TV in the evening or whatever, stuff that they enjoy, yeah? And then you work on this, only gonna ask or tell twice, and then there's a consequence. And then. You would take their iPad time and you would split it into thirds. [00:37:00] So, you would have 30 minutes, 20 minutes, 10 minutes, nothing. 
Julie: [00:37:05] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:37:06] And then you say to the children, okay, these are the rules: If we hit punch, poke, that's a rule broken. And, you know, you decide what your rules are. 
Julie: [00:37:16] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:37:16] I'd basically think about rules at school. Because, that's what kids know. And those are rules for life, social skills, self-regulation. 
Julie: [00:37:23] Which they adbide by, at school.
Tanya: [00:37:24] Of course they do, because there is consistency and no emotion. Basically, every time a rule is broken, you put a sad face in the top 10 minutes, slot of the 30  minutes. So, they've now gone from 30 minutes to 20 minutes of iPad time. And, I do it visually so they can see it, because schools also do that. They're very good at having little charts and things. So, kids can kind of see where they're doing and it doesn't matter how the day ends. The next day, we start again with a full deck of cards.
Julie: [00:37:55] Yes.  Otherwise I've created a situation where they have nothing to lose in the end .
Tanya: [00:37:58] And they've also got nothing to [00:38:00] try for. 
Julie: [00:38:01] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:38:02] But I think, also what you want to look at, is thinking about something called golden time. This isn't just about what you lose, it's about what you gain. So you'd say, okay, so here's a list of the five things we want you to see every day, teeth, bed, dah, dah, dah. But also, you have the opportunity to earn extra, if you bring your plate and you know, you're earning towards golden time, each marble is a minute. So, if you do 20 lovely things in the day, you get 20 minutes of golden time and you can choose what you want to do. 
Julie: [00:38:34] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:38:35] So, if Sarah says to you, mommy, "please can you paint my fingernails?" 
Julie: [00:38:39] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:38:40] Absolutely. It's not tele, it's not iPod. No, it's just their time with you and they can be in charge. 
Julie: [00:38:46] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:38:46] Yeah? 
Julie: [00:38:47] Yeah. That's perfect. 
Tanya: [00:38:48] And that's staying up a bit later. 
Julie: [00:38:50] Yeah.
I think this will enable us to give the kids more control over their behavior. Because, I think at the moment, I'm almost inadvertently creating a [00:39:00] situation where they can't win.
Tanya: [00:39:01] You totally are. The other thing I would say is. When you do this, initially, they are going to push back hard and scream and shout. My advice to you, is don't go straight into, "well, that's us second sad face!" Because, literally within 10 seconds they'll have wiped out the iPad for the day,and you've basically only got to 10 past nine in the morning.
I would just walk away. 
Julie: [00:39:26] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:39:27] You know, they can go to their room or you can go to your room and shut the door and say, "you know, when it's quiet, mommy will come out". And remain calm, because you want to role model to them what it is you're trying to help them learn to do. Remember you're the adult, they're the kid. 
You have a nicely, well-developed prefrontal cortex that can think strategic long game. You know what operant conditioning is. You know what your buttons are, you know, that they're only kids, lucky your kids have the space to be that you didn't,. You had to be the good girl, you've [00:40:00] given your children's space to be children. Good for you. I would say. Stay calm. 
Julie: [00:40:06] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:40:06] I'd like you to start looking at some mindfulness. There's a great app called Headspace. I'd love you to practice it twice a day. When you feel the flames kind of explode in your stomach, you take a breath, you don't have to react straight away. Children really struggle with parents who are indifferent.
Okay, if you want to be like that, well, I'm just going to leave you. They're going to go, "what?" That's going to be really, really, much more effective. I'd like you to go for a run every day, because I know you love it. I think you need a little bit more endorphins there. 
Julie: [00:40:44] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:40:46] I'd like your husband to put the kids to bed two or three times a week, so you can go and hang out with your girlfriends. I'd like you to give yourself a bit of a break and enjoy your time. I want them to see [00:41:00] their mommy happy. And I've made you cry again. I'm sorry.
Julie: [00:41:04] I just realize they don't see me happy a lot. 
Tanya: [00:41:12] Children know how to be happy, when they're around people who know how to be happy. Children know how to express emotion, when they're around people who know how to express emotion. Children know how to resolve issues with conflict, when they see that happen around them. Children know how to articulate anger when, they get a role model who can be calm and focused and assertive with them, when their behavior is spiraling out of control. 
But the fundamental takeout for me, comes with the answer to this question, which is in order to really look after our children well, who is the most important that we have to look after?
Julie: [00:41:49] I know the answer is myself, but that doesn't feel natural to me at the moment. 
Tanya: [00:41:53] Well, that's the point. I 
Julie: [00:41:55] need you  to have a 
Tanya: [00:41:56] coffee with a good friend, who you can talk to after today. I need [00:42:00] them to say, yeah, you know what, Julie, you do need to slow down. I need you to find that friend who can really be your running mate.
Julie: [00:42:08] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:42:09] And, I have no doubt that things will start to change. Because, I believe today you've released something and I feel really privileged that you have chosen that to be with me. So, I just want to say thank you so much. 
Julie: [00:42:22] Thank you.
Claudia: [00:42:24] How are you feeling? 
Julie: [00:42:32] Tired.
Claudia: [00:42:33] Yeah I bet.
Julie: [00:42:35] But lighter. 
Claudia: [00:42:36] I, you look lighter. It's none of my business, but the cuddle game ends. 
Julie: [00:42:41] Okay.
Claudia: [00:42:42] Today that's been chucked away. What have you learned from your chat?
Julie: [00:42:47] I've learned that I don't have to be responsible for everything. It's not all on my shoulders. I've had confirmed what I already knew, which was that my behavior wasn't helpful to us as a family.
Claudia: [00:42:59] Its not just [00:43:00] down on you.
Julie: [00:43:00] No no, I know, but it's just that I need to give myself some time if I'm going to turn things around. Because, at the moment I'm getting up every day and the same thing's happening and I'm expecting a different outcome. Which is just, not realistic. 
Claudia: [00:43:16] I like Tan's system, don't you? 
Julie: [00:43:18] I do like that and I think the kids will feel calmer with that, because it's less of a Russian Roulette of what's the consequence going to be now.
Claudia: [00:43:24] But, we've all done it. I've often, you know, one day they don't take their plate over and I go, don't worry, baby, I'll do it. And the next day, if I'm harassed and they don't take it over, I'll go, "you spoilt children. that's it. the weekend, we were going to go to the zoo and have lunch out, that's cancelled out of... and then, "what, pardon? Okay. I'll take my plate over". 
Julie: [00:43:42] Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:43:42] It's hard for them, I guess. And bucket A is going to be looked after with brilliant professional. 
Julie: [00:43:47] Yeah. It's almost permission. Because, I think, you know, we're told as women, you can have it all and actually it's bloody hard. 
Claudia: [00:43:56] It is hard. A, you do have it all. You have a husband you [00:44:00] love, and you have two magnificent children who are quite willful, which is good, because they have an opinion I'd like to talk to you about the P word, which I have real problems with, which is perfect because, it never is. 
Julie: [00:44:15] No.
Claudia: [00:44:15] And my oldest two used to fight like Tom and Jerry, you know, and I dreamt that we would all read Dickens and then do a puzzle, and my husband would make an award winning moussaka. He made one once, my stomach still turns when I think about it, it was both raw and burnt. It's like he broke science. That's all I can tell you, Julie. So, don't worry about perfect. 
Julie: [00:44:36] Yeah. Taking off those Rose-tinted spectacles and just saying, well, this is what it is. And be kind to each other along the way. 
Claudia: [00:44:43] Yeah. And you just be lovely to you, buy the nicest piece of cake you can find at the station and smother it on your chest...
Julie: [00:44:51] Might get some odd looks maybe, but still. 
Claudia: [00:44:53] It's fine. Claude and Tan told you to do it. 
Julie: [00:44:56] It's on the list of things to do. 
Claudia: [00:44:57] Exactly. Thank you for coming in.
[00:45:00] I feel like she left with tools and that's important, isn't it? 
Tanya: [00:45:09] Yeah. I think it's important when, um, when, when I'm working with someone, who I can see has been so brave and honest and has kind of got to a part of themselves that feels very vulnerable. 
And, you know, does feel very out of control, because that's how she had felt for so much of her childhood. I think, it's important sort of strategically as, as a therapist to also sort of give some structure and framework. 
Claudia: [00:45:38] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:45:39] I think it's so important to think about how people leave you. And, I don't see my job as just dismantling people and leaving them in a sort of state of feeling out of control and, and vulnerable. I think plans are helpful because, I think what they do is they just enable people to believe there is a solution.
There's something that can be [00:46:00] done and that's empowerment. It's my job to hear what people are asking for as much as suggest things to them that, maybe they haven't recognized themselves. And people like Julie, I really admire, because you know, she's very courageously now going to look at things that she's probably wanted to push away for many years. 
And she's doing it, because she doesn't want them to impact on her relationship with her children. And, if that doesn't make her a good mom, I kind of don't know what does, and I hope she hears you. And I say that because I, I look forward to the day when she begins to believe that herself. 
Claudia: [00:46:35] Me too. Thanks Tan. 
Tanya: [00:46:38] It's alright, Claude. 
Claudia: [00:46:38] Should we have a little snuggle and a nap. 
Tanya: [00:46:42] A nap. 
Claudia: [00:46:43] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:46:44] Can't snuggle. 
Claudia: [00:46:45] Got it. 
Tanya: [00:46:45] Corona, but we'll nap. 
Claudia: [00:46:47] Okay.
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I wouldn't have got involved, it's not my place to get involved in his marriage, at all. And looking back now, I don't know why I did.
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