Claudia: [00:00:00] Please note this episode contains some emotional content, including discussion around suicide and may not be suitable for all listeners. 
Trudy: [00:00:15] It's not my place to get involved in his marriage at all. I'm looking back now. I don't know why I did. 
Claudia: [00:00:25] Hello, it's me, Claudia Winkleman and my wonderful friend clinical psychologist, Professor Tanya Byron, with How Did We Get Here? The podcast that lifts the lid on some of the challenges people are facing in their lives. 
Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions, whilst I'm listening in from another room. In the break and at the end, I ask Tan a bit about her process and we explore the issues that are raised. This time, we meet Trudy, who is married and has three boys.
She's concerned about her brother, who she says started behaving aggressively towards her and her family a few years [00:01:00] ago. Trudy is concerned that her brother is suffering with mental health difficulties. 
Trudy: [00:01:05] He'd phoned my parents and told them, that I told him to go and kill him himself. I'm speechless am. I would never ever say those words to anybody. And so out of character, it's really, really over there top behavior from him. 
Claudia: [00:01:23] What you're about to hear the key parts of a one time, unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode.
Let's go and meet Trudy.
Trudy thank you so much for coming in and chatting to us. Why are you here? 
Trudy: [00:01:48] I'm here because of my relationship with my brother. In the last couple of years, it's gone from being really close and supportive of each other, to the point now, where we we're not talking to each [00:02:00] other. Added to all this, he's behaved in some ways that have made me and my family think that there's possibly a mental health issue with him.
That makes it really hard for me to, you know really be, really brutally honest with him about what's going on. I feel like I want to protect him. 
Claudia: [00:02:18] Is he older or younger? 
Trudy: [00:02:19] He's two years younger. 
Claudia: [00:02:20] What was your relationship like growing up. 
Trudy: [00:02:23] There weren't any big issues between us at all. We were always pretty close. 
Claudia: [00:02:28] Before this happened, I'm just trying to get a picture of what life was like. Was it Sunday lunches? 
Trudy: [00:02:33] Not quite because he lived quite far away. I mean, he was in the military for probably about 10 years, something like that. So, he moved around a lot, so I wouldn't see him loads. It would only be a few times a year maybe, but when we did see each other, it felt like we were very similar personalities.
Claudia: [00:02:50] Did something happen to elicit a change? 
Trudy: [00:02:53] It was all around the time of him separating from his wife. I brought up the fact that I knew he was having an affair. It was a big old [00:03:00] argument that involved him phoning the police on me. And... 
Claudia: [00:03:02] Oh my goodness. 
Trudy: [00:03:03] It was horrendous, I apologised for my part in it. He's never taken any responsibility for it, but that was the first time I thought there's, "something not right here, in the way you're behaving". It was a massive overreaction. 
Claudia: [00:03:16] Yeah. Well, calling the police on your own sister, who you've always had a close relationship with. 
Trudy: [00:03:20] Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:03:21] Sounds like he wasn't completely himself, maybe. 
Trudy: [00:03:25] And then there's been more things, he's lied, quite nastily about me to my parents and so I'm angry as well. And that's, that's really hard. 
Claudia: [00:03:35] There are lots of kinds of love, but sibling closeness and looking after each other is so important. So, it must feel completely bizarre. Well, thank you so much for coming. 
Trudy: [00:03:45] Thank you.
Tanya: [00:03:50] How'd you feel about and here and talking about it? 
Trudy: [00:03:53] Oh, grateful. Because I just feel so stuck. I love him and I want the best for him. [00:04:00] I want to know how to, how to deal with my anger towards him. 
Tanya: [00:04:06] When you said to him that you knew that he was having an affair, that's when it all starts to unravel? 
Trudy: [00:04:11] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:04:12] From that point onwards, what is it that he said or done that has left you feeling so worried that he might have mental health problems?
Trudy: [00:04:23] Well, on that day, when that happened, All I said to him was, um, I knew he was, he was seeing somebody else and he got so angry and upset with me. Because we were driving at the time and he was saying, "drop me here, drop me here". And, I was saying, "no, we'll go to where we've arranged to go. The children can play and then we can talk properly".
"No, drop me here". And he ended up like, pulling the handbrake while I was driving. So, the car came to a really sudden halt. Luckily, there was nobody behind me, because it could have been awful. His daughter was in the back of the car, because he and [00:05:00] his daughter had met me for brunch. And, um, he got out the car and I, at that point forgetting his daughter was in the back, drove off towards this place where we were going.
He runs after me and pulls the windscreen wiper off the car. It's like a two minute journey, where we were heading towards, like an open park area. As I'm driving there, he phones and he's like saying, "you've got my daughter in the back", I'm like, "okay, well, I'll, I'll, I'll go to where we're meeting". You know, it resulted in him phoning the police on me, telling them that I kidnapped his daughter.
He came to this park and he picked her up, and some of the language he was using, like, how I'd held him hostage and things like that. That rang alarm bells with me, I was like, that's a real overexaggeration. It felt like he was using quite, um, yeah, just military language. So, that was the first time that I, I thought there might be some trauma linked to the military that he's, [00:06:00] that's been triggered in some way. I don't know. 
And there's been various other instances since then, but the most recent one, um, was about eight months ago. We were talking on the phone and, um, it started to deteriorate. The end of the conversation was, "well, I'm going to kill myself. Goodbye". I just went in shock and I was in a shopping center and I didn't know what to do.
Luckily, I'd had a little bit of training on suicidal intent and things like that, and so I could, after a few minutes could rationalise, I really didn't think he was going to do it. I went to my friend's house, I calmed down, I kept going on WhatsApp to check that, because I could see when he'd been online and things like that.
So, I knew he was safe. And then the next day, I found out that he'd, he'd phoned my parents after this interaction we've had on the phone and told them that I told him to go and kill himself. [00:07:00] Like I'm speechless. I would never, ever say those words to anybody. And so out of character, it's really, really over the top behavior from him.
Tanya: [00:07:10] It scared you.
Trudy: [00:07:11] Yeah! 
Tanya: [00:07:12] Were you the first person who, sort of ,confronted him with the knowledge that he was having an affair? 
Trudy: [00:07:19] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:07:20] Just so I'm clear, you told him that you knew that he was seeing somebody else, in a car, with his daughter in the back. Did she hear that? 
Trudy: [00:07:28] It actually happened over brunch. So it happened in a restaurant that I said this to him.
It wasn't out of the blue. It was kind of, he was talking about problems in his marriage. His daughter had headphones on and an iPad or something. So, she didn't hear it, as far as I know. But, then she was obviously witness to the whole thing, when he's saying I was kidnapping her and all that. 
Tanya: [00:07:51] Why did you decide to say it then? And in that place? I'm interested that you then have another really difficult conversation when you're in a shopping center. [00:08:00] The timing and the context seems, also quite fraught in a way. Do you know, why did you feel like I've just got to take my opportunity now or?It's because 
Trudy: [00:08:10] It came up, because he was talking about problems in his marriage and it doesn't tend to come up very often. 
Tanya: [00:08:17] Right.
Trudy: [00:08:17] Those kind of open to... 
Tanya: [00:08:18] You took the chancewhen it was there okay. Just give me a sense of how it all played out afterwards. Did it, so did you sort of bring it to a head in a way, by telling him that you knew that he was seeing somebody else?
Trudy: [00:08:29] It was coming to a head anyway, I think his wife had confronted him and said that she knew. He, I think, thought that had been contained between the two of them. He didn't know that his wife had been communicating with us and telling us what had been going on. I think that's part of the reason he was so upset because he thought he'd managed to contain the way he'd been behaving between him and his wife and his other lady.
But he. She'd been telling us. 
Tanya: [00:08:56] Right. So, he had an issue with the fact that boundaries were blurred? 
[00:09:00] Trudy: [00:09:00] Probably. 
Tanya: [00:09:00] That people that he didn't feel needed to know about what was going on in his marriage knew?
Trudy: [00:09:06] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:09:07] And talk to him about it? 
Trudy: [00:09:09] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:09:11] I can kind of see where he's coming from. You look a bit shocked. I'm not saying his behavior, his reactions to you were right. But, it's interesting to me that, for you, you have a sense that this is something that you should be able to tell him. And he should be able to take it and want to work it through with you. And I'm curious why that is? 
Trudy: [00:09:32] Yeah. Because, I always thought that we could talk to each other about anything and everything, but actually that's an assumption.
Tanya: [00:09:41] It's, I mean, it's a fair assumption, as a loving sister. But yeah, it is an assumption. And I suspect that's part of, what's made it difficult for you to look at how he's reacted, which is basically to tell you to F off and mind your own business. 
Trudy: [00:09:57] I wish he have just said that.
Well, he 
Tanya: [00:09:59] sort of is isn't [00:10:00] he, he's just using very extreme language, but it's interesting, this hostage metaphor and the kidnap metaphor. 
Trudy: [00:10:06] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:10:07] Because for me, that just sounds like, he's not as comfortable with just using words to describe feelings. I don't know your brother, I don't, I don't want to assume anything about him. But, that language to me does sound like a man who is saying, you've trapped me with something without my consent, without my permission.
Trudy: [00:10:27] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:10:28] The only person I've got in the room is you, not your brother. So, there are a few things that have to be sort of clear in my mind. I cannot and will not diagnose your brother, because I haven't met him. And of course, his narrative is important in terms of actually making some bigger level of conclusion.
So in a sense, the only person that I can think about and work with is you. And, therefore, you may feel like I'm putting it all on you and I'm not, but I'm going to ask you some things just to [00:11:00] try and understand it. To be able to help you to move on. 
Trudy: [00:11:02] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:11:02] Yeah. So, I guess, I don't want you to feel that I'm criticising you. It's more that I'm trying to understand. 
Trudy: [00:11:07] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:11:08] But I'm interested. Then he's furious, he pulls up the handbrake, the car  (inaudioble)  to our holt. You're shocked. He's shocked. He jumps out. 
Trudy: [00:11:19] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:11:20] And then, you drive off with his daughter in the car. I can, kind of, see why he's thinking, "what are you doing?" 
Trudy: [00:11:27] Yeah. Yeah.
Tanya: [00:11:28] I'm not suggesting any of the way he reacted was okay. It sounds aggressive and in that moment you must've been completely discombobulated, and thinking, "Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, what am I doing? Let me just get them, the kids to the area. Let's just..." and I understand that.
Trudy: [00:11:45] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:11:47] I suppose what I'm saying, saying is, my instinct is not to pathologise his reaction. My instinct isn't to automatically jump to an understanding of his behavior, that would, for me, conclude that he [00:12:00] has some kind of mental health problem. 
Trudy: [00:12:03] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:12:04] It sounded like he's really angry. He's with you for being angry, you're angry with him for being angry. And as children, I wonder whether you were brought up in a family where, anger and emotional issues were never really role modeled, in a way that people could understand how to do them healthily. So, you know how to get on as brother and sister when things are going well. 
Trudy: [00:12:31] Absolutely. 
Tanya: [00:12:31] Yeah. But you just don't know how to get on his brother and sister, when things aren't going well.
Trudy: [00:12:36] No.
Tanya: [00:12:36] Because you were never taught to.
Trudy: [00:12:38] No. Yeah. I'm just, I'm thinking about the mental health thing. There has been a big change in his behavior. 
Tanya: [00:12:46] With everybody, with his friends, with his, his new partner?
Trudy: [00:12:50] Well, my family, I don't know. I don't have contact with his friends. Really? Yeah. He has talked about suicide and several times, [00:13:00] before he actually made this threat to me. 
Tanya: [00:13:02] In what context, how has he talked about it?
Trudy: [00:13:05] He said things like, "Oh, you, you, you don't know what it's like to be looking down the barrel of a gun and", and things like that. And I will try to clarify, I will say to him, "Are you telling me that that's what you've done?", That this has happened to you and he skirts around it. And, doesn't directly say that he has tried to take his life or anything like that, but I get the impression he's certainly considered it at some points.
I don't know. IT, just, it's really upsetting. 
Tanya: [00:13:36] Yeah, no, I do understand that. I have a sense that you understand mental health to a degree. Tell me a bit about you do. 
Trudy: [00:13:45] I'm training at the moment, to be a counselor, I've got a year left before I'll qualify. And that was partly, because I wanted to learn how to be there for my brother, how to listen without [00:14:00] judgment.
Tanya: [00:14:00] So, he was the catalyst partly? Inspiration for you to train, partly?
Trudy: [00:14:03] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:14:03] Yeah. And have you found it helpful from that perspective? 
Trudy: [00:14:07] I've learned a lot about listening, not interrupting, trying to leave all judgment aside, things like that. But, sometimes when I've spoken to him, I've left feeling like an emotional punchbag.
Tanya: [00:14:20] He's only punching you, because you're staying there to be punched. If you like, it in the context that you're describing it, why do you stay and allow it to play out in that way? 
Trudy: [00:14:29] Because of this fear that he's, it's what he needs, and he's medically ill , and if I don't listen to him and nobody listens to him, then he could end up in a really bad place. 
Tanya: [00:14:39] So, you're saying, people who have mental health difficulties should be allowed to be abusive to those closest to them. In order for them to be supported with their mental health difficulties.
Trudy: [00:14:57] That is what I'm saying, yeah. And I realise [00:15:00] that I'm pushing his needs above my own, aren't I?
Tanya: [00:15:04] That's why you're so angry. Because, I think you're confused. 
Trudy: [00:15:07] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:15:07] Partly, I think you're a little bit confused about your role here. Are you his sister, or are you his counselor? As a therapist, people do act out in a therapeutic relationship. And it's a space to be able to express, and vent, and try and find ways to articulate feelings that maybe hadn't been articulated before. And, in the process of learning to articulate them in a way that's healthy, there may be a period of time with a therapist where there could be anger or, you know, unhappiness. 
And, sometimes that can be personal and as a therapist, we need to not take these things personally. Because, you know, obviously we're looking at things like transference, as in what's happening emotionally between me and the person I'm working with, what are they playing out here in, in a relationship with me that I need to understand, to support them. And, we have to be careful as [00:16:00] therapists and counselors, don't we? Not to get caught up in countertransference, which is, how much is my experience of what I'm feeling in this interaction with my client, how much is my experience actually to do with me.
Which is why, counseling and therapy takes many years training and we should also have our own therapy, to make sure we're not contaminating the process of those we're working with, with our own pathology. 
Trudy: [00:16:30] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:16:31] I would say you being the emotional punch bag ,would be you enabling him to remain stuck in a state of anxiety and anger that he's not doing anything meaningful with, but you're not his therapist.
Claudia: [00:16:46] Okay. I just want to pause, can I ask you about transference and countertransference? What does that mean? And does that happen a lot, with people who are training? Or, I mean, how do you stop it from happening, if you [00:17:00] like?
Tanya: [00:17:00] Transference is, it come, it's a Freudian concept. And it comes from the understanding, the idea that in a relationship between a therapist and the person they're working with, a client, obviously, remembering that the therapist doesn't really have a personal presence in the relationship, you're not there. They don't know lots about you. You know, you're there really to think about their issues with them. And, almost to be a blank canvas in that relationship process, that the person may project into their therapist, things that really belong to other relationships in their lives. 
But, our children do this with us, you know, when our children are saying, "you're the worst mommy in the world", or whatever. What they're doing is it's a transference, they're projecting into us, something that they can't hold onto in themselves. And it tells us something that they might be struggling with. So, we don't want to take it personally. We want to try and work out what's going on. 
Countertransference would be, when is as a therapist or counselor, you [00:18:00] have your own emotional response to what it is that's being played out in the relationship. And we, again, we know that in friendships, you know, you might be with a close friend and having a chat. And suddenly, you might find you have an overwhelming reaction to something that they've said. And, actually, that reaction is less about what they've said and more about what it's triggered in you.
Claudia: [00:18:18] Right. 
Tanya: [00:18:19] And so, it's really just about understanding how relationships work at many levels, and can sort of, we can, we can use relationships to play out parts of ourselves from early relationships, early life experience. 
Claudia: [00:18:32] Ah, okay. That's clear. Let's get back to the chat. 
Trudy: [00:18:37] Interestingly, after the, the event where he told my parents that I had told him he was going to kill himself. Because, it was coming up to Christmas and he was due to come to my house, this was probably a couple of weeks before Christmas. And, actually I said to him, I don't think it's a good idea if you come. And I then, locked all contact from him. That's the first time I've put any [00:19:00] boundary in place, and it absolutely broke my heart to do that. 
Tanya: [00:19:03] I can understand. 
Trudy: [00:19:05] But, I suspect he's quite angry at me for putting that boundary in place.
Tanya: [00:19:09] Of course he is. But, that doesn't mean to say that it wasn't the right thing to do. 
Trudy: [00:19:14] It felt like the right thing. 
Tanya: [00:19:15] And have you spoken to him since? 
Trudy: [00:19:17] No. 
Tanya: [00:19:17] So that actually was quite a significant boundary. You now don't have any contact with him. 
Trudy: [00:19:22] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:19:23] And do you know how he is? Has anybody, I mean, does anyone else see him?
Trudy: [00:19:25] Yeah, my parents see him. 
Tanya: [00:19:27] And how is he? 
Trudy: [00:19:28] He's okay, yeah. It swung between, being really, really in a bad place and he's had himself arrested over the years and things, you know, just really horrible things have been happening to him. And then, you know, the next week, everything will be fine. So it's, it's no surprise to me that life seems rosy for him at the moment, but then I could have a phone call with him and he will suddenly want to take his life or, you know, it's always been quite up and down.
Tanya: [00:19:55] Okay. If you look at [00:20:00] what was going on in the dynamic between you and him, when he was being really abusive towards you. If you take a step outside of that with me. If we both, as people who work with people who are struggling with mental health, emotional health, psychological wellbeing. If we look at what was going on there. What do you see going on in that dynamic between you and him?
Trudy: [00:20:24] I see that he's desperate to be saying those things. 
Tanya: [00:20:29] But what was playing out between the two of you? Something that was helpful for him or unhelpful?
Trudy: [00:20:37] It ended up being very unhelpful, because I think he was crying for help when he was saying, "I'm going to take my life, goodbye". That was the last thing he's ever said to me. I suppose he was crying out for me to support him. 
Tanya: [00:20:59] Or, [00:21:00] maybe, he was telling you to leave him alone? 
Trudy: [00:21:02] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:21:03] Be careful not to assume. I think things have got very blurred for you, now that you're training to be a counselor. I think it's, I think you're really struggling to navigate this. Yeah. I think my advice to you is, think about him as an adult, with his own agency and you as an adult with your own agency and your siblings.
And, I can kind of see that your life seems to have gone a lot better than his. So maybe, there's some envy there. Maybe, there's something in the dynamic between you and him, that makes you, possibly one of the least helpful people to be supporting him at the moment. Because of the nature of the fact that you are his successful older sister. 
Trudy: [00:21:50] And that's so hard, because I desperately, desperately want to help him. It's a desperate need to help him. 
Tanya: [00:21:56] But, what if you're not the right person? 
Trudy: [00:21:57] I know, I can see I'm not. 
Tanya: [00:21:59] Yeah. [00:22:00] And that's, I think that's, what's breaking your heart. Sometimes, the more we try and support, in a way that actually, isn't very healthy. The more we enable nothing to change. 
Trudy: [00:22:18] Yeah. So, this boundary I've put in place could help? 
Tanya: [00:22:25] It's the best thing you've done.
Trudy: [00:22:26] Well as me, it felt selfish. 
Tanya: [00:22:28] What's wrong with protecting your own wellbeing? You're a mother of three kids. If your kids were being abusive, rude, "F you mum, you don't understand. Right that's it, I'm going to kill myself". Would you just sit there and take it constantly?
Trudy: [00:22:48] No.
Tanya: [00:22:48] What would you do? 
Trudy: [00:22:51] I would put boundaries in place and I would, I would feel like they needed to be taught. [00:23:00] That's my role to teach them, isn't it? It's not my role to teach my brother, and bring him up. 
Tanya: [00:23:06] Well, I think it's your role to be a woman with her own agency. And to be very clear with her male sibling, and your children are all male, aren't they? 
Trudy: [00:23:16] Yes, they are.
Tanya: [00:23:16] And her male children, that women are not put on this earth to emotionally, psychologically or physically take a battering, because that male is struggling with their own emotional regulation. It's not really helpful for him or you for you to enable that dynamic to continue.
How angry are you with your parents, that they may be somehow responsible for the fact that your brother doesn't know how to express his needs emotionally? I heard you say to [00:24:00] Claud, "as a family we sweep things under the carpet". 
Trudy: [00:24:02] I was due to go over to my parents' house and my dad recently on this day said to my mum, "Oh, should we just invite him as well?" And my mum was like, "they're not talking to each other, so it probably won't end well, if they just appear at the same place at the same time". 
I just, I think, "Really? Really? You expect us just to sit around the table, ignore everything that's just happened. I would like to sit around the table and discuss all this".
Tanya: [00:24:27] Why do you want to sit around the table and discuss it? When it's clear, that you're not the right person to have that discussion.
Trudy: [00:24:33] I didn't realise I wasn't the right person. 
Tanya: [00:24:35] Challenge me on that. Please challenge me. 
Trudy: [00:24:37] No, I think you're right. It's only today that I've thought, "hang on, I think I need to step away and just be a sister, not be his mental health support worker".
Tanya: [00:24:49] You're rolling your eyes now and sort of going, "Oh", tell me why. 
Trudy: [00:24:53] At myself. I'm just seeing how, how it wasn't helpful.
[00:25:00] Yeah. I can see that I was using him as my little, little client to practice my counseling skills on. 
Tanya: [00:25:15] From a very good place in yourself. 
Trudy: [00:25:17] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:25:18] We cannot treat our family. We can't. 
Trudy: [00:25:23] No. 
Tanya: [00:25:24] We can't. You know, my kids always have this horrible, sort of, "Oh, your mother's Tanya Byron, you must be so emotionally centered. So, well brought up". They're going to write a book about me, Tanya Byron: Great With Other People's Kids Shit With Her Own. I was their mum, you know, and I could not be a child and adolescent mental health consultant with my children. It's really important to remember what the relationship that you're in is. Maybe, you just need to be his sister again. 
Trudy: [00:25:57] Yeah, I think you're right. 
[00:26:00] Tanya: [00:26:00] There's lots of tears. Talk me through your tears. 
Trudy: [00:26:05] It's a relief to ju... to feel like I can just be a sister. It feels like the pressure's gone off me a little bit. 
You look really tired and tearful. Has this has been quite overwhelming? 
You've held up a big mirror to me. I can see it a lot clearer now. 
Tanya: [00:26:28] However, there is a piece of unfinished business for you, that I do think you also flagged and I think you're right. He's really annoyed you. He's really hurt you. And you said at the beginning, "you know what though? I feel really guilty. Maybe, I shouldn't feel angry with him, because if he's mentally ill, then he can't help it". I think, that's really disrespectful to people with mental health problems. I think we should always work with the idea, that everyone has choice and an agency.
Even if they're very unwell, you wouldn't condone it in your husband. You wouldn't [00:27:00] condone it in the husbands or partners of your girlfriends. So, let's not condone it in your brother. And yes, perhaps you were, inadvertently, part of that dynamic. Because, you became too much of his therapist in a way, that he A, didn't ask for and B, it just wasn't helpful.
But nevertheless, he was really abusive to you. You have a right to be angry. And I think, the second part of our chat, after the break, is just helping you work out that anger. It's almost like, you've got to write a letter, either to him or to yourself, processing what happened and why. But also, how it's made you feel, give yourself the right to feel it and then, say what you need to say.
So, the second part is just to look after you and your anger and just, I think, to release you from that.
Trudy: [00:27:54] Yeah, that sounds [00:28:00] good.
Claudia: [00:28:08] Tan, let's talk about Trudy. She had a revelation. 
Tanya: [00:28:13] Is that what it sounded like?
Claudia: [00:28:14] That's what it sounded like. What does it do? How did it feel in head with her? 
Tanya: [00:28:18] Yes. It's interesting to work with someone who has such high levels of insight and understanding. I suppose the revelation was that I wanted to help her see that she was landing all that expertise that she's developing in the wrong way in her relationship with her brother. 
Claudia: [00:28:38] Talk to me about her anger. I think she tries to dump in her anger because she felt like he needed to have, because maybe he was dealing with some mental health issues. 
Tanya: [00:28:48] The most important thing to say is, there are people that I've worked with and people who'll be listening to this podcast, who will have a loved one who has significant mental health [00:29:00] difficulties, that are causing an awful lot of angst and stress, to family and friends and seemingly are unable to change. 
They may have a gambling issue, problem. They may have a drug problem. They may have an alcohol problem. You know  and that can make them abusive, aggressive, whatever. It is important to say that for anyone who is listening, if you have a concern that your loved one is a risk to themselves or others, you can write to their GP. Don't make it emotional, make it factual. You can keep a log of incidents, and send that as well. You can call the local CMHT, and say, "I am a concerned relative, and this is what I need to tell you and I have told the GP". 
Claudia: [00:29:48] What's CMHT, sorry?
Tanya: [00:29:49] Community Mental Health Team, sorry. And, if you look at the charity Rethink, they have a fantastic advice page around, what to do if you have a loved one who you're really [00:30:00] worried about, and they're not seeing that they need help. You know, people cannot be made to have treatment. Only under the Mental Health Act, which you know, as we know, people can be sectioned, and that in itself is fraught with difficulties and overwhelming for everybody, and so on. But ,I think, fundamentally, in terms of the actual situation that we're looking at here, you also have to remember that you have agency as well.
And, if the person who you have tried to help continues to be sabotaging to themselves, and to you and to others, at some point, boundaries have to be put down. Because by not placing boundaries, you are almost enabling them to maintain the behavior, because nothing is changing. Something has to change, and if they can't see the change has to happen, then maybe, others have to change around them.
Claudia: [00:30:57] You talked about, [00:31:00] pathologising, with Trudy. I think, that what you were talking about over-pathologising, can you explain that a bit more? 
Tanya: [00:31:04] I think, we live in a time where we are much more open about mental health. And, I don't think it has parity of esteem with physical health, yet. And, I still think there is a stigma, for people with a mental health concern, which wouldn't exist for them with a physical health concern.
We are also in a time, where there can be an overuse of mental health labels and diagnoses, for things that are actually a part of the, sort of, normal human experience. People can be very unhappy, because they are struggling with real issues. And we tell them, they're depressed. And, I think, sometimes pathologising things, means we lose the meaning of what that actually means, and it enables us not to do anything.
So, a lot of people, for example, with a diagnosis of depression and who are prescribed medication are people who live in poverty. Who have life chances that are very [00:32:00] minimal. So, I think it's often unhelpful at best and dangerous at worst to be saying, "Oh, this is mental illness, because I think it writes people off".
And, I think, it also means we're not really thinking about why the person is struggling, the way that they're struggling. And what that means, what they're communicating. 
Claudia: [00:32:19] Thank you. I'm going to send Trudy back in.
Tanya: [00:32:35] So, the anger comes from many places. 
Trudy: [00:32:38] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:32:39] The task was to think about that. Were you able to do that? 
Trudy: [00:32:45] I've written a letter to him. 
Tanya: [00:32:46] Have you? Do you want to share it with me or? Yeah? 
Trudy: [00:32:50] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:32:50] Okay. I'm listening. 
Trudy: [00:32:54] I'm so sad that we've got ourselves to this place where we no longer talk. I feel as if, [00:33:00] our relationship has turned toxic and we've lost the supportive, fun, loving dynamic we once had. I hope we can get it back, I carry a lot of anger with me that I've struggled to process and let go. When you called the police on me and accused me of kidnap, I was furious with you. I still am. You knew I wasn't kidnapping your child, and you just wanted to hurt me. 
If the police had taken it any further, I could have had a criminal record. I would have lost my job. I was terrified that day and I still can't quite believe you did it. I know I'm responsible for my part in that argument and I've repeatedly apologised. You've never responded to my apologies or taken any ownership over what occurred that day. I'm angry about that. 
You also told our parents, that I told you to kill yourself. Why would you do that? It is a spiteful, vindictive lie. I know that I will probably never get an answer, but I really want to know why? You knew how much it would hurt me and I didn't deserve [00:34:00] it. It's not okay to lie about me, it's not okay to talk over me, call me names, patronise me or make fun of me. I want to be able to talk with you without feeling fear or resentment. I want it to be your sister again. I love you.
Tanya: [00:34:23] Take a breath. Tell me how you're feeling now. 
Trudy: [00:34:33] I'm shaking. 
Tanya: [00:34:34] Yeah, I can see that. 
Trudy: [00:34:37] My heart's racing.
Tanya: [00:34:43] Take some breaths. You take it in through your nose, you hold it and then you blow it out, steadily.
Think about a place where you feel relaxed and safe. [00:35:00] Can you feel your heart rate coming down? 
Trudy: [00:35:02] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:35:04] Okay. So that made you feel anxious. 
Trudy: [00:35:11] Yeah. A lot of things, it feel, it feels like I've been holding that a long time.
Tanya: [00:35:17] And, I think we have to also remember, for all the good things your parents did for you and your brother bringing you up. Possibly, the one thing they were unable to do, and we're all unable to do certain things for our children, none of us are perfect. But, perhaps they didn't really help you or your brother learn how to articulate the stuff that's difficult. 
Trudy: [00:35:36] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:35:37] But ironically, you're training in a profession, where you're going to try and teach other people to be able to do it. 
Trudy: [00:35:44] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:35:45] So, I suspect that's why it also brought up quite a lot of feelings for you. That it's quite unusual for you to advocate for yourself, in such an assertive way, around something that has hurt you so badly.
Trudy: [00:35:59] Certainly the [00:36:00] assertive part of that was the hardest bit to say. 
Tanya: [00:36:02] Yeah, I think a lot of women do struggle with that. We have lots of different ways of thinking about mental health, and there's obviously one of the models is called, the Stress Vulnerability model of mental health. You know, people who have an underlying mental health difficulty.
You know, maybe there is something there for your brother from his years in the army, supposition, we don't know. Certainly, you know, he's used language and suggested things to you, that indicate, there might be things there. I've not spoken to him. You've not spoken to him, at any detail. So, it's only supposition.
We have to be very careful about what we assume. But, let's just say in a general way, you know, there's underlying factors that are really difficult for somebody. Obviously, the more stress that they have in their life, the greater the chance that that will build. And they will have some bigger expression of distress, in a way that could be for, some people is catastrophic. 
Even at a very basic level of supporting someone with a mental health condition, [00:37:00] anything that causes stress, and anxiety, and conflict. Even if it feels like the right thing to do, we need to talk about this, I have to help you see, is actually unbelievably counterproductive. Because the pressure, the pressure, the sense of judgment, the sense of shame, the vulnerability. But then, we get into this idea of mistimed interventions, have you done that bit of your training yet, in your counseling training?
Trudy: [00:37:28] No. 
Tanya: [00:37:30] It sounds like, what happened when you were having lunch with him, telling him you knew he was having an affair. 
Trudy: [00:37:34] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:37:35] It's not that the conversation in itself might not be helpful, but timing is so important. 
Trudy: [00:37:42] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:37:43] Again, it's not to criticise you, but I think if we look at that, it possibly wasn't the best time. He probably felt quite attacked. So, he attacked back. He called the police. Not [00:38:00] condoning that, but I'm trying to understand it. 
Trudy: [00:38:02] In my head, I didn't see it going like that at all. 
Tanya: [00:38:05] Why did you even feel the need to be the one to tell him, that you knew he was having an affair? You're his sister. What's it got to do with you? 
Trudy: [00:38:14] That's a good point. I think his wife was looking for somebody to intervene, in some way. 
Tanya: [00:38:22] So, you were set up. It's their marriage. So you were basically put in a position where, you were the one that said what she didn't feel able to say. Which I understand, you were totally set up and the price you have paid for that, is the relationship with your brother. 
Trudy: [00:38:42] Wow. 
Tanya: [00:38:42] Yeah. Again, it's about a boundary. That's between them and you just got woven into a tapestry. You shouldn't have even been there. 
Trudy: [00:38:52] No.
Tanya: [00:38:53] Say the things that need to be said. Which I think is a compensation, for what was never said when you were growing up. [00:39:00] You know, you've got to be really careful. Oh, you've just gone, "wow". 
Trudy: [00:39:03] Wow. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:39:04] Why do you say, "wow"? 
Trudy: [00:39:05] Because, making that link with how things weren't talked about when I was growing up. Like emotional stuff wasn't really discussed. And... 
Tanya: [00:39:15] So, now I'm going to bang the table and say what needs to be said. If you had your time again, what do you, what would you have done differently? 
Trudy: [00:39:23] I wouldn't have got involved. I would place more boundaries. I would apologise. Like I did, for my part in it.
Tanya: [00:39:28] You did do that, yes. I acknowledge that, yeah. 
Trudy: [00:39:32] But, I've held onto this thing that he's never apologised back, but actually not my problem. And, I would in subsequent interactions, where he would become abusive or aggressive, I would have very firm boundaries. I would just say, okay, "I'm going to go now".
Tanya: [00:39:51] Absolutely. Getting back to this letter, with time after today's discussion, you may feel like you've, kind of, put it to bed as much as you need [00:40:00] to, or maybe not. I would say timing wise, this isn't a letter you want to be sending now. 
Trudy: [00:40:06] No. Okay. 
Tanya: [00:40:07] It's an important letter for you. Maybe, the most useful thing is to say, I miss you.
Can we just not talk about anything other than catch up, how you are, how the kids are and do you fancy a coffee? 
Trudy: [00:40:23] I can feel the pressure lifting, if we just said it was going to be that, it's just that. 
Tanya: [00:40:29] And you can say, you know what, I realised you don't need me talking about this stuff with you. And if you ever do, you know, I'm here for you, but, um, I just miss you as my brother.
And maybe that will lift the pressure for him. And maybe you would be able to see each other ,and get back to being the close brother and sister you always were. And then, maybe he'll be able to say, actually I could do with some advice. And then, that's the timing. [00:41:00] What I don't want you to do, is leave me and Claude today thinking, Oh, just why did I do that? I'm such an idiot. 
You did it for the right reasons, because you love him and you care. It just backfired. And now you understand why. Then, it sort of frees you up to say, you know, I don't even want to know about this anymore. 
Trudy: [00:41:22] Yeah. Yeah. I am tired of it. I'm really tired of it. 
Tanya: [00:41:27] Because, it's just not your problem.
Trudy: [00:41:29] Yeah. So, let go. 
Tanya: [00:41:31] Leave it with us, me and Claude. We've got a whole cabinet here, of things that people leave with us. So, we give you permission to leave it with us. 
Trudy: [00:41:38] Gladly. Gladly.
Claudia: [00:41:43] When you first came in here, did you think this was how it was going to go? 
Trudy: [00:41:50] No, I feel so much freer now. 
Claudia: [00:41:52] Yeah. What have you learned? When you leave, what is the one thing, when you're sitting with your family tonight, [00:42:00] what are you going to say?
Trudy: [00:42:05] I feel reassured that my intentions have always been good. 
Claudia: [00:42:08] Yeah. 
Trudy: [00:42:09] To know my place, to know, that sometimes, I don't need to get involved. 
Claudia: [00:42:15] And you've got three sons, who are going to grow up and there's going to be so much. Not in a bad way, but stuff you'll want to go, hold on just a minute. So we all need to learn from what Tanya said, just to sometimes, I'm over here, I've got your back. I'm your cheerleader, but... 
Trudy: [00:42:33] Sort it out yourself.
Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:42:34] Or, I'm here, if you need me. 
Trudy: [00:42:37] Yeah. Wait for them to come to you. 
Claudia: [00:42:39] I'm interested in what he will think, when you go, I'm not trying to fix anything, that's all gone. Lets just do something old, and let's not even talk about any other stuff. 
Trudy: [00:42:51] Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:42:52] Ask his advice. Say, you need to buy a new jacket, you want to get involved in teepees. We're starting a new business, which involves marmalade, [00:43:00] personalized marmalade. Has he got a word of advice? Maybe, I don't know how well any of those businesses would work. But I'm just, anyway. Thank you so much for coming, Trudy. 
Trudy: [00:43:11] Thank you.
Claudia: [00:43:16] Sometimes you just need somebody to show you cause you just can't see. 
Tanya: [00:43:20] We've got to remember that emotion clouds judgment. And if you feel safe with a friend, a loved one, a partner, a sibling, who knows you well enough to be able to say things you might find difficult to hear, but you know, are true. That's what you want.
You want someone to be able to help you take a step back and almost standing next to you, watch you in the  situation and go, "Hmm. Why do you think you did that? Do you think it could have been, because of this", and suddenly things feel clear and she, I'm glad she doesn't feel stuck anymore. 
Claudia: [00:43:58] She's not stuck. Her whole face [00:44:00] lifted. She kept on saying, I feel lighter and I feel clear and I think her husband and her kids will be so happy. Because walking around with that anger and on top of that, the fear that she has to somehow save him, that's a lot. I mean, you often talk about, put down your rucksack, get, you know, take your... you've got to unpack the rucksack.
And my favorite thing you said too, is we've got cabinet here. Which I'm going to build at the weekend, by the way, which is where people can leave their stuff. Well, we've got more than enough space. We'll take it. I've left stuff in it, as you well know. 
Tanya: [00:44:33] Me too. I've got the first two shelves. 
Claudia: [00:44:36] Have you? 
Tanya: [00:44:36] Yes.
Claudia: [00:44:37] I've personalized them in my head. I'm making a cabinet. Thank you so much. 
Tanya: [00:44:41] That's alright.
Claudia: [00:44:42] But, I'm going to go and get some MDF. 
Tanya: [00:44:44] Okay, well you get your drill and I'll make the tea. 
Claudia: [00:44:45] Okay. Done.
Do remember to subscribe, to get more episodes for free. Also, if you have a second please comment, rate, and most importantly share. We would love [00:45:00] these stories to be heard, as widely as possible. If you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this episode, please see our program notes for information about further support and advice.
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Allie: [00:45:28] I instantly see her has that person, either self harming or, or an alcoholic or anything. And, I think, I've done that to her. That will come out. She's suppressing that now, because she's such a good child. I'm just absolutely convinced. 
Claudia: [00:45:43] This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Grace Laiker. The producer is Selina Ream, and the executive producer is Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman.
Thank you so much for listening. [00:46:00]