Claudia: [00:00:00] Please note, there are some adult themes and strong language within this podcast that may not be suitable for everyone. 
Allie: [00:00:14] She writes these notes to me all the time. I find them on my pillow and on the fridge and, "I love you, mommy". And I can't look at them. They, they destroy me. 
Claudia: [00:00:26] Hello, thank you so much for choosing, How Did We Get Here? The podcast where me    and my wonderful friend clinical psychologist, Professor Tanya Byron, look at some of the difficulties that people face either themselves or with their families. Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions, whilst I'm listening in from another room. 
In the break and at the end, I ask Tan a bit about her process and we explore the issues that are raised. This time we meet Allie. She's a single mother, with a seven year old child who seemed very happy, but Allie cannot shift the feeling that her daughter may [00:01:00] reject her at any moment. Alice suffered a few years ago, because her father was dying and is worried that she has permanently damaged her daughter. 
Allie: [00:01:09] Yeah, she rolls her eyes quite a lot. I say to her, "why, how are you this happy?"
Claudia: [00:01:15] What you're about to hear the key parts of a one-time, unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode, let's go and meet Allie.
Allie, thanks so much for coming in. Tell me why you're here. 
Allie: [00:01:38] I thought Tanya would be just the woman to help me enjoy my daughter more. Make me feel, sort of genuinely loved by her and to not to make me feel like I've constantly, like, damaged her. I'm just convinced I've, I've ruined that child. 
I don't try to think things.
Claudia: [00:01:58] No, of course, well, we all [00:02:00] do. How old is she? 
Allie: [00:02:01] She's seven. 
Claudia: [00:02:02] Seven and she's called Bea? 
Allie: [00:02:04] Yes. 
Claudia: [00:02:04] How did you find the whole thing, being pregnant, giving birth, when she was little? 
Allie: [00:02:10] Initially, wonderful and exciting because I really wanted it. It happened first time. Um, it was through a sperm doner actually, so it was very, very, just ins... thank goodness instantly very, very quick. She was this most easy, brilliant, healthy, baby. 
Claudia: [00:02:26] And you mention using a sperm donor, do youm were you doing this alone or do you have a partner? 
Allie: [00:02:30] Just no, just me.
Claudia: [00:02:31] So, that it's quite a lot to take on. And then, you were given this magical, easy baby. Some are, some aren't, you know, you get what you get and you love them anyway, but how did you find all the stages?
Allie: [00:02:42] It really was like a magical dream for nine months. It was when she started to crawl. 
Claudia: [00:02:49] Yeah.
Allie: [00:02:50] That things got tricky, who knew. So that was, um... 
Claudia: [00:02:54] Tricky because she, you thought she was going to bang her head, or tricky cause she was going to pull at plugs? 
[00:03:00] Allie: [00:02:59] No, because she started to go away from me. Okay. And I, I found that really difficult.
Claudia: [00:03:07] You felt like she was pulling away? 
Allie: [00:03:09] Yeah. I have realised, through doing quite a bit of work on myself, that I have a, there's a world of difference between my rational self, who can say exactly what you just said, "she's just going, exploring. And she was going to go and" 
Find the baby Teddy or whatever. 
Claudia: [00:03:24] Yeah.
Allie: [00:03:25] Stick your fingers in plugs and that's, that's normal. But then my, obviously, my kind of irrational, emotional brain went, "nope, she's rejecting you. She doesn't love you. And she doesn't want you". And, it just very quickly went into that. And I decided, that was what 's happening. She didn't actually happen to be a, particularly an cuddly child.
She was never very clingy or cuddly or needy. She's extre... she still is extremely independent and just happy in her own skin and very secure and very, just her own self...
Claudia: [00:03:55] Her own little human.
Allie: [00:03:57] Which is... I know that that's brilliant and that's what we [00:04:00] want.
By the way, what brilliant parenting you've done. No, I mean it, because when you see the seven year old, who won't let their mum leave the room. 
Oh, absolutely.
Claudia: [00:04:10] What a wonderful job you've done. 
Allie: [00:04:11] I'm convinced I damaged her. 
Claudia: [00:04:13] How have you damaged her? 
Allie: [00:04:14] Between the ages of about one and three, nearly four, my father was dying from a, like a slow, debilitating illness. That poor child that had to sit and watch me cry nearly every single day. The worst thing in the world is for a small child to watch their mother be stressed or cry or be you... 
Claudia: [00:04:34] But, that's because you were going through something. 
Allie: [00:04:37] I know, but it still... 
Claudia: [00:04:38] And you're not now. 
Allie: [00:04:39] No. 
Claudia: [00:04:40] To reiterate, you want to leave here feeling like you haven't damaged your daughter.
And feeling that she's not rejected you. 
Allie: [00:04:49] Maybe, having the tools to be able to reorganise my brain, when I start to feel rejected or unloved by her. Because bless her, she could say to me, "I love you mommy", all day long and she does. I've always [00:05:00] got reason in my head, as to why she's saying it, that's not to do with love or you're trying to appease me... 
Claudia: [00:05:06] Why do you think you're so unlovable?  Allie, no! Of course she loves you, you're her mommy. And how much do you love her? 
Allie: [00:05:11] Just immeasurably. It makes my heart hurt. When I think about her. And I really do, would like to know how to sort of mitigate it, her not being a damaged teen. I see them all the time where I work and it. A and E.
I instantly see her as that person, either self-harming or, or an alcoholic or anything. And I think I've done that to her. That'll be, that'll come out. She's suppressing that now. Because she's such a good child. I'm just, absolutely convinced.
Claudia: [00:05:38] This is going to be sorted out. Tanya's coming in. And thank you again, so much for coming and sharing your story, because so many women will be listening, going of course. 
Tanya: [00:05:49] You're full up with anxiety. Is it the process or is it just because of what you're talking about? 
Allie: [00:05:55] Primarily the process. Um, I'm I know that I'm not an [00:06:00] anxious person, and I don't have anxiety. I don't have anything like that. 
Tanya: [00:06:04] So, you don't have panic attacks and that sort of stuff? No. 
Allie: [00:06:06] No. 
Tanya: [00:06:07] But, it's interesting you say I'm not an anxious person, because what you've been talking to Claudia about is acute levels of anxiety that you've damaged your daughter. 
Allie: [00:06:16] It's very pecific to that part of my life. Everything else, I'm insanely laid back. 
Tanya: [00:06:23] Well, that's good. Tell me about your daughter. 
Allie: [00:06:25] I always look at her and I say to her, "how are you this happy?", "How do you think life is this fun?",  She's just "Oh it is mummy! It just is. I love my life. It's just so great." 
Tanya: [00:06:35] And she really does? 
Allie: [00:06:37] She's an only child... 
Tanya: [00:06:38] But, she's got little friends. She talks about particular people as good friends. She goes on play dates. How does she sleep? 
Allie: [00:06:45] Like an absolute log. 
Tanya: [00:06:46] So, she sleeps well, does she eat well? 
Allie: [00:06:48] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:06:49] And has she had any accidents or injuries, any head injuries at all?
Allie: [00:06:53] No. 
Tanya: [00:06:53] When things upset her, or when she's worried about things, or someone's been mean to her at school or anything [00:07:00] like that? How does she express her sadness? Does she talk about it? 
Allie: [00:07:03] Um, yeah, at bedtime, I say, you know, has anything worried you today? Has anything made you sad and think, what was the happiest thing that happened? You know, we go through the day, it's sort of an emotional checklist and things. And she will talk about, you know, what, if someone was mean to her or she isn't really very often, but she's seems to be quite open about it. 
Tanya: [00:07:24] She's emotionally articulate and she feels safe to do that with you.
Yeah. And if she is upset, if she gets frustrated or sad or whatever, and she cries or whatever, how does she express those sorts of emotions? 
Allie: [00:07:38] Like she will show it, but then she's very good at realigning. What's the word? 
Tanya: [00:07:44] Reframing it. 
Allie: [00:07:45] Yeah. Reframing, but just, sort of, getting back to baseline quickly.
Tanya: [00:07:48] Sort of grounding herself. 
Allie: [00:07:49] Yeah, that's it. 
Tanya: [00:07:50] She doesn't, sort of, fall apart and... 
Allie: [00:07:52] No, she's never, ever had a trantrum. 
Tanya: [00:07:55] Okay. 
Allie: [00:07:56] Which, I find quite worrying. 
Tanya: [00:07:57] Yeah. Well, we'll talk about the tantrums in a minute, but she [00:08:00] sounds like a child who's doing really well, at the age of seven. 
Allie: [00:08:04] For now. 
Tanya: [00:08:06] So, what's this crystal ball? What are you seeing that I'm not?
Allie: [00:08:11] I'm convinced that, because of how I was, until she was, sort of, four. There is no way that, that hasn't had an effect on her. And, that some of her behavior is to be a good girl, so that she doesn't upset me because she saw me upset for so long. 
I will constantly make up reasons as to why she is be it good or not bad, because she doesn't do bad stuff, particularly. 
Tanya: [00:08:37] What are you basing these concrete conclusions that you're coming to?
Allie: [00:08:43] It's pretty well known that children who've had traumatic childhoods... 
Tanya: [00:08:49] Because you were very unhappy during those years.
Allie: [00:08:51] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:08:52] You're right when you talk about infants and children and actually adolescents as well, that there is what's [00:09:00] called a high level of neuro-plasticity in the brain. You know, the brain is developing and it's being molded and shaped by life experience, education nurture. Absolutely. 
And I'm curious, what, how you understand this based on your work, experiences at work? What mitigates, because, not everybody who has had difficulties and childhood challenges are going to then become an adult who is really going to struggle with their mental health. Life doesn't work like that. So, there are all sorts of factors and experiences that mitigate against that.
Allie: [00:09:38] I guess it's never occurred to me, that some don't. I've been at utterly...
Tanya: [00:09:44] You've been absolutely, anxiously focused and preoccupied on Bea. 
Allie: [00:09:48] Convinced...
Tanya: [00:09:48] Because you're saying it's a certainty, aren't you? 
Allie: [00:09:50] Oh, yes. 
Tanya: [00:09:51] Yeah. And I'm saying it's not. 
Claudia: [00:09:55] Can I just ask you, how effecting is it [00:10:00] for the sole carer to be grieving? And as she says, her father had a long illness, how will that have affected Bea?
Tanya: [00:10:09] We do know from studies that maternal depression can impact on children, can impact on child development, can impact on child behavior. And, we do know that children who have a primary attachment, who struggles with, you know, depression and sadness, and the child is very aware of, that can become what could be called Parental Children. That they... 
Claudia: [00:10:35] Explain that to me. 
Tanya: [00:10:36] They feel... 
Claudia: [00:10:37] Oh, right, responsible. 
Tanya: [00:10:39] Exactly. They are caretaker of their parents' emotional needs. And that's kind of what Allie is saying. She's saying, look, I'm really worried. I've got this exceptionally good little girl. I put her in a position,  where she feels like she has to look after me. And, I don't want to put her in that position, because I don't want her to end up like some of the kids I see coming in, in my job. That's something that needs to be heard. I think, to [00:11:00] dismiss that and go, "but she's fine", means that you're not actually hearing what Allie's saying. 
I feel in this particular case, yes, perhaps little Bea has learnt, to kind of be happy and cheerful and smiley. Because, she doesn't want her mummy to be crying. Because, she saw that, and that was something that, you know, she doesn't want to see because she loves her mummy. Has it damaged her, I think damage is the wrong word. 
Claudia: [00:11:25] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:11:26] Has it affected her? Possibly. I mean, everything affects us, so possibly. And I haven't met Bea, so I couldn't say, you know, with any certainty. Has it has a debilitating impact on her development to date, in terms of how we know she functions generally as a seven year old girl? No. Is it something, that, it would be useful for Allie to be mindful of? Yes. I think, I think that's very thoughtful of her. 
Can she do anything about it moving forward with her [00:12:00] daughter? Absolutely. But, not if she's this anxious about it. 
I suppose I'm curious, why you are so adamant? And why you need to be so adamant about this? It's almost as if, you have something invested in believing this. And I'm curious what that is. 
Allie: [00:12:18] Because I think her behavior is unusual. 
Tanya: [00:12:20] How is she not like other children? 
Allie: [00:12:22] She's never had a tantrum. Ever. We went camping couple of weeks ago, with some of her school friends, each and everyone had a total nervous breakdown, at least two or three times a day. 
Tanya: [00:12:36] And you didn't sit there going, my child is amasing.
Allie: [00:12:39] No. I sat there going, "Oh my God, I've ruined my child, because she just sat there, toasting marshmellows, just having a whale of a time. And just did, she, you know, she would look at, look around like me going, "that's weird", the whole time. Like she's suppressing it, so that she doesn't upset me or that, you know. She writes these notes to me all the time. I find them on my [00:13:00] pillow and on the fridge and, "I love you, mommy". And I can't look at them. They, they destroy me. 
Tanya: [00:13:06] Right. So, know, I don't want you to feel, I'm not hearing what you're saying.
Allie: [00:13:09] I know, I know.
Tanya: [00:13:10] You're saying, look, I have a lovely, well functioning, happy little girl. 
Allie: [00:13:17] For now.
Tanya: [00:13:18] Right, well, yeah and I hope she is a revolting adolescent, just to reassure you that she can just have her moment and she could move on.
Allie: [00:13:25] Yeah, that fine, as long as she's not... 
Tanya: [00:13:26] Yeah. You were just making cutting motions on your wrists. We'll move back to that in a minute. But ,you're saying, "have I got a child who feels that they have to parent me?" 
Allie: [00:13:38] Right. And that is a disaster. 
Tanya: [00:13:40] That's where you're wrong. And that's where I'm going to have to pull the old professional rank on you and say... 
Allie: [00:13:45] I want to hear this.
Tanya: [00:13:46] I know, I know. That's why you're here... 
Allie: [00:13:48] Go for it.
Tanya: [00:13:49] Yeah, but what I don't. Yeah, I really will. But, what I don't want you to feel, is that I am not validating your concern. 
Allie: [00:13:56] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:13:57] You've got a choice in it in one of two ways. One, [00:14:00] is for you to now become overwhelmed by your own sadness and guilt and regret. And therefore, be ineffective to help her learn, to not have to worry about you anymore. And to be able to be a little bit more open, if she needs to be about things that she's not happy with. Or, you can think about it and understand it and think, "okay, what can I do differently moving forward, in order to enable her to not carry a sense of responsibility for me and the rest of the world, and for her to empower herself to also look after her own feelings".
Allie: [00:14:37] That is exactly what I want, that is bang on
Tanya: [00:14:41] With my years of experience, working in child and adolescent mental health and child protection, I know what can be done to children, what children experience. I do not see what you're describing as, traumatic [00:15:00] and damaging, in the way you are holding onto it. But, I think, you're holding onto it like that, because in your daily life, in your job, you see and hear some really sad and horrible things. You meet and talk to children and teenagers who are suicidal, who are self harming, that can sit at a certain place.
Allie: [00:15:21] Yes. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:15:22] But as, as a practice myself and also the, a mother. I've also, always, had to work really hard to keep those young people I work with very separate from the way I think about my children.
Allie: [00:15:33] I'd love to know how you do that. 
Tanya: [00:15:34] Yeah. Well, I think, I really want to help you with that, because I think it's important, particularly for your child. It was important for my children. If I took home the horrors of what I had heard and seen, and somehow projected that around my children. The level of anxiety my children would have grown up with would have been horrendous. 
Allie: [00:15:55] Yeah, of course. 
Tanya: [00:15:56] I'm convinced you're not having big conversations with her, and asking for her [00:16:00] reassurance, but I think your hypervigilance and your noticing of everything.
Allie: [00:16:04] Yes.
Tanya: [00:16:05] She's going to sense that, she's going to pick it up. 
Allie: [00:16:07] Yeah. Yeah, she rolls her eyes quite a lot. I say to her, "How. Why are you so happy? How are you this happy?", "Oh, mommy. We've talked about this, you know?". 
Tanya: [00:16:17] And why do you feel the need to ask her? Plus, she's seven, how could she even answer that question? I think, you're looking to Bea, to validate you, that you haven't damaged her. And I think, I think actually you have to look to yourself now.
Allie: [00:16:33] I want to shed all these, the rubbish, to not feel this way and prevent any further. 
Tanya: [00:16:39] I haven't probably explained it well enough, further damage would imply you've damaged her. You've affected her, we all affect our children. 
Allie: [00:16:50] Okay. Affected, we can use that word.
Tanya: [00:16:52] I mean, children are affected from the minute they, you know, come out of our bodies. I mean, and I would say... 
Allie: [00:16:59] Because damaged is a [00:17:00] bit dramatic. I agree with that. 
Tanya: [00:17:01] It's significantly dramatic. If you don't mind me saying. 
Allie: [00:17:04] Yeah. No, I know.
Tanya: [00:17:04] And I would, I would really not put that label on your child. 
Allie: [00:17:08] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:17:08] There are children who live in nice homes with parents who are constantly screaming at each other. There are children who witnessed domestic violence. There are children who are abused. There are children who are starving. There are children who are going through all sorts of unimaginable horrors. 
Allie: [00:17:20] She doesn't have any of that. 
Tanya: [00:17:21] Okay. So, let's just recalibrate this idea of damage.
Allie: [00:17:25] Okay, I do agree.
Tanya: [00:17:26] If you agree, what are you agreeing to already shift in your perception?
Allie: [00:17:32] I'm agreeing, that she'll be affected by me and life and her friends, et cetera. But, maybe, not damaged, as much as I think that she will be, like these people I see all the time. 
Tanya: [00:17:46] It was hard for you to say that. Are you worried, if you don't hold onto that idea of damage, that somehow you're neglecting her?
Allie: [00:17:54] Yeah, not neglecting exactly. But, I do not want to take my eye off the ball. 
Tanya: [00:17:59] Oh, your eye is [00:18:00] way too much on the ball. Yeah. I agree with what you're saying. What I struggle with, on behalf of Bea, is the intensity at which you're doing it. And the certainty you have, that she is a damaged child. You will know that when we come at something that we want to think about, with high levels of anxiety, the way we think about it can very quickly become quite irrational and paranoid because that's what anxious thinking is.
It leads us towards irrationality and paranoia. And, I would say, that where you step over that line, is when you meet your young clients in A&E, who obviously are in a really bad way. And you look at them, and you anxiously and in [00:19:00] rather a paranoid way, assume that, that's Bea's trajectory. Because of what she experienced, when you were grieving for your father's death, before he died. 
Now that is anxious, analytic, unhelpful thinking, I would say. What do you think about that? 
Allie: [00:19:22] I would absolutely agree with what you said, but I would also add, that it is also possible. 
Tanya: [00:19:32] I suppose what I'm saying is, why do you need to assume that it's going to be the dark side?
Allie: [00:19:38] Why can't I just enjoy it, like properly deep in my heart? Like just freely. Enjoy it without constantly, just, just go, 'she's just doing that because..." 
Tanya: [00:19:47] Because you're too anxious, so let's talk about anxiety, because it's really interesting, you said to me, almost at the beginning, "Oh, I'm not anxious". 
Allie: [00:19:54] I just meant in everything else. 
Tanya: [00:19:57] But, I think you are very anxious. I think anxiety is [00:20:00] something that you struggle with, in terms of your reactions to things that you find challenging. In terms of other attachment relationships in your life, probably the most obvious one to start with would be your attachment with your mother, do you think we can find any clues there as to why your attachment to Bea causes you such high levels of anxiety?
Allie: [00:20:22] So, I do know that I wasn't, and I'm not securely attached. 
Are you able to tell me a bit about that? 
She was a, uh, unemotional, unloving mother, in the classic sense. Like she kind of, she provided, you know? 
Tanya: [00:20:45] Task focused. 
Allie: [00:20:46] Yeah. Yeah. There was a lacking of that side of things, um, from her.
Tanya: [00:20:52] In terms of affection and nurture? 
Allie: [00:20:54] Yeah. I wasn't allowed to be emotional. 
[00:21:00] Tanya: [00:21:00] There was never any acknowledgement of your feelings. 
Allie: [00:21:03] Absolutely not. 
Tanya: [00:21:05] Bea, I think is, is an interesting child for you. Because, she is not asking you to nurture her, in the way that you feel she should. 
Allie: [00:21:18] Yeah. I agree with that. 
Tanya: [00:21:20] And I think you feel she should, because some part of you wants to be able to give to her, what you didn't have.
Allie: [00:21:35] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:21:36] And because of the kind of child she is happy-go-lucky little girl, who loves life. She doesn't really require that.
Allie: [00:21:42] No.
Tanya: [00:21:43] That doesn't mean, it's because you've damaged her, that means, because she is a child who can navigate life in the way that she navigates life. Can you see, there is something going on around your anxiety about your daughter, that is actually very much [00:22:00] about you?
Allie: [00:22:01] Yeah, I hate admitting that I wish I could mother her more than she needs. It's really just like, have a protect and undo the damage that I had, you know? And she's never really given me that opportunity.
Tanya: [00:22:18] "Undo the damage that I had",  you just said. So, that's a very interesting thing you're saying. You're saying, my need to mother her in that very active, nurturing, mothering way, is to meet a need in me.
Allie: [00:22:32] Yeah, to, to sort of make up for past wrongs and all that kind of admission, it's justice. It's... I hate, I hate that. 
Tanya: [00:22:40] You get it. The bit that stops you spinning out into anxiety, is that you haven't worked out how to deal with the anxiety you spin out into. 
Allie: [00:22:51] Quite. And that's what I need help with.
Tanya: [00:22:53] Exactly.
We're going to have a break in a bit. Part two of today is to talk about how you can do that. And what, what I think would help. 
Allie: [00:22:59] Perfect. 
[00:23:00] Tanya: [00:23:00] There's something about reframing, just the whole idea of damage and the certainty that she will be damaged. The second thing is, with our children, we can try and compensate for things that have happened to us, or haven't happened to us or for us, that we've got to be careful. Because, then we're, we're putting all needs onto them, it's not really what they need. 
Allie: [00:23:19] Quite.
Tanya: [00:23:20] Okay. Anything else you've picked up from this?
Anxiety. 
"I'm not anxious, Tan", as you're sitting there with your foot, literally shaking to this point, I thought it was going...
Allie: [00:23:35] It was a weird experience. 
Tanya: [00:23:37] The way anxiety affects you, I think, is it causes you to have almost obsessional levels of quite highly anxious, perhaps sometimes quite paranoid thoughts. So, you've heard of cognitive behavior therapy.
Allie: [00:23:52] Absolutely.
Tanya: [00:23:53] So, the way we think affects how we feel, which affects how we behave. It's [00:24:00] about how you shift your perception, in order to shift your feelings, in order to shift your behavior. I want you to think of examples of Bea's behavior that trigger your anxiety. Like everybody's having a tantrum, she's happily toasting marshmallows.
Allie: [00:24:21] I mean, you can see why I'm distraught. 
Tanya: [00:24:23] But, think of examples of Bea's behavior that trigger your anxiety, and then write down the thoughts that are going through your head. And then write down the feelings that accompany it, and then write down any behaviors that come off it. So thoughts, feelings, behaviors in this pen, and then we're going to give you a different color pen. And then, I want you to take each of the thoughts and I want you next to them, in a different color pen to write out a challenge to those thoughts.
Allie: [00:24:52] Wowzers.
Tanya: [00:24:53] You use your rational, logical brain to talk back to that anxious [00:25:00] child part of your brain that's going, "But, this isn't enough. This isn't enough. There must be something wrong. There must be something wrong". Which is actually you as a child, but somehow, you're making it about her. See what I mean? 
Allie: [00:25:10] Yes.
Claudia: [00:25:11] I'd quite like Bea to be naughty, mainly to reassure her mum. And also, because it's too much pressure to always be the good girl. 
Tanya: [00:25:37] I mean, I have no doubt, that at some stage Bea will go through a developmental moment, where she is going to be challenging and cross and different. And, I hope she does, because it's part of development. And I hope that my conversation with Allie today, will enable her to free herself and be up from this persistent anxiety [00:26:00] she has about Bea. Just to allow life to take its course and to be the mother who is silent, but containing, who is there to set the boundaries when needed and to be available for her daughter, should her daughter need her to be available.
What I would like to help Allie stop doing, is consistently checking in with her daughter all the time. Why are you so happy? Things like that, because that in itself creates a level of anxiety in the child. It obviously, a level of anxiety in the mother. And then you could perversely have a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, where things could backfire a bit.
Claudia: [00:26:39] Is there something to be said here, about work-life separation? What she's seeing at work, she's seeing trauma and things that will stay with you. You, by the way, and your colleagues and people on the frontline, who were working in the pandemic. All of these things who people see [00:27:00] right up. They are at the coalface and then have to go home, and somehow leave that at the door and snuggle their kids.
You have to go home and say, "hi", to your kids, you chat to them on the phone when you might have just seen something harrowing. Can you teach her how to separate them? 
Tanya: [00:27:19] Many many, many years go, when my children were very young. I mean, they're sort of adults now, in their mid-twenties, but when they were very little, I was working in child protection. And actually, I did need to just change my role for a while, because I did struggle to come home. Having taken disclosures from very young children, about  abuse and cuddle my own kids. I just struggled. And I remember talking to my husband about it, and I needed, just to take a bit of time away, I've since gone back.
But, I really recognised in that moment, I wasn't managing that very well. I became very anxious around my kids, because suddenly the dangers that I was hearing about in [00:28:00] children, I was seeing at work. I was, you know, bringing them back in terms of my conscious awareness of my children and their lives. So, I do understand that challenge and I understand where she's coming from. I really do. 
I also think, the role that she has is a really important role. But, she probably hasn't had the training, to be able to really understand some of, some of the ways in which you can protect yourself in a professional role. These kids come in broken and we'll be the first person there. Sort of, literally trying to mop them up, help them get themselves together enough, to be able to talk to the nurses and the doctors.
So, I can understand she finds that really challenging. And I think, it's worth just talking that through with her. It is very important, in any kind of health care professional role, to separate what you see in here and you do at work, from what you see and hear and do at home. It's, it's really, really important.  And [00:29:00] once you blur that boundary, it can really have an impact on relationships. 
Claudia: [00:29:05] That's exactly right. And she's the sole caregiver. And it just felt like to me, like she was just projecting every time she went home and she'd look at the seven year old or if she was at work, she'd go, that's going to be my daughter.
Tanya: [00:29:15] Yeah. And I feel really bad for her that she, that she obviously isn't... Maybe there isn't enough support and supervision at work, but I can see that's really hard for her. And I completely get it. I see that a loot in, in my profession. 
Claudia: [00:29:36] Alright.
Tanya: [00:29:36] Havent you done your homework? 
Allie: [00:29:44] I thought I'd do Like free examples, because I wasn't sure which, I dunno. I didn't know how much. 
Tanya: [00:29:48] No! That's brilliant. Let's see what conclusions you came to. 
Allie: [00:29:51] Trigger anxiety. 
Tanya: [00:29:52] So, Bea behaves in a certain way and it triggers your anxiety. Give me an example of a time that might happen. You're laughing. Why are you [00:30:00] laughing?
Allie: [00:30:00] Because, it just would sound insane. 
Tanya: [00:30:04] We all do things when you... 
Allie: [00:30:05] So, obviously it's incredibly anxiety like, inducing when she draws a picture of us holding hands with love hearts. 
So, your anxiety 
Tanya: [00:30:16] is triggered when she draws a picture of you holding hands with love hearts. 
Allie: [00:30:19] Yeah. Yeah. I can't, I cannot look at it.
Tanya: [00:30:23] Okay. And you're laughing because actually... 
Allie: [00:30:26] To normal, a normal person, that just sounds absolutely ridiculous. Like, it's, it's the dream, isn't it? You know, you see it in movies and I just cannot accept it for what it is. My thoughts are, "Oh God, she felt obliged to draw it". And then my feelings are, "she's trying to appease me. She can't possibly love me". And I'm, and then the guilt floods in that I've affected her, previously known as damaged. 
Tanya: [00:30:55] So, that's thoughts and feelings. And then, what are the behaviors that [00:31:00] arise from that? 
Allie: [00:31:01] So, my behavior to that is that I immediately just put it away in the box. I don't, I barely look at it. I will ask her, you know, "why did, why did you draw that? Like what?", And then I distance myself from her, due to the guilt, not genuinely acknowledging it to her. I sort of, change the subject quickly. And I think, hoping she'll stop doing it, because it like hurts me, hurts my heart when I see them. Those little notes. 
Tanya: [00:31:30] So, when you say genuine and acknowledged, you mean rather than say, :Oh, that's such a lovely picture. I love it so much. Thank you". You go through this whole kind of tortured, tangled process of pain and anxiety, guilt. So you look at a sweet, lovely picture drawn by your daughter, as evidence that she is actually very damaged.
Allie: [00:31:53] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:31:53] Right. So, that has to be anxious thinking, doesn't it? 
Allie: [00:31:58] Yes.
Tanya: [00:31:59] When we think [00:32:00] in a highly anxious way, it's skews everything towards a dark, negative, catastrophic, and sometimes quite paranoid place. So, what I asked you to do then, is to answer the anxiety thoughts with something that's more rational and thoughtful.
So you're sort of talking back to your anxiety now. Tell me what you said. 
Allie: [00:32:22] You're projecting onto her the reasons you wrote your mum notes when you were little, for love and approval and to appease her. Bea has no need to do this with you, as you have and do fully let her know that she is safe and loved and nurtured.
She's no need to do this, other than out of loving her mommy purely and simply. Brackets, which is apparently a thing, who knew. 
Tanya: [00:32:48] That is absolutely correct. And we know it is because it's you've stopped being anxious and you've started to feel emotional. So what are you acknowledging there? About that whole process you went through when you [00:33:00] looked at Bea's sweet little picture.
Allie: [00:33:02] I just always assumed she did it for the reasons I did it, which were not out of love. It was out of, like fear of like keeping the peace or just trying to keep everything kind of neutral. And, that doesn't make sense, because she has a totally different childhood to what I had. 
Tanya: [00:33:22] A-Star. You'll have helped loads of people, because you have absolutely perfectly illustrated the way that we manage obsessional, anxious, spiraling. And then you can say, "that is such a lovely picture, darling. Thank you". Where should we, let's put it on the fridge. You're checking your foot. You've got tears in your eyes. 
Allie: [00:33:49] I can't imagine it. 
Tanya: [00:33:50] But, just because it was never said to you, it doesn't mean to say, you can't say it to your daughter. So what I advise you to do, is do this exercise [00:34:00] whenever you're triggered. You can do it like this with, with pen and paper, because it's really helpful. Isn't it? You write it, you write down where I'm at, thoughts and feeling behavior and then you write your rational response.
And the reason you can do the rational response bit, is because you're focused, you're writing. you're using your rational, logical part of your brain to do the exercise. So, it will automatically then begin to come into talking back to you the anxiety. There's a great app as well, if you go into the app store, um, called Thought Diary. And it basically, it gives you a template, where you do exactly this. But, it gets you to log your feelings. It gives you more information about specific cognitive distortions that you're experiencing, because you're anxious. Are you catastrophising here, or you magnifying? So I think you'd quite like that one and I think, if you've got it on your phone, whenever it happens, you could quickly take yourself off and do it.
And I think it would just completely reground [00:35:00] you, which is what you need to do. You just need to ground yourself. Out of the anxiety that's to do with your childhood and into the present. So, the other important thing to remember is, when you are feeling anxious, what you need to do is acknowledge that feeling and think about practical ways you can bring your anxiety down. 
There's fantastic breathing circles, you can get on apps where it just, it just, you look at a circle, get bigger, you breathe in, you hold it. And then the circle reduces and you breathe out. So, it just helps you control your breathing, so that you bring your anxiety levels down.
Allie: [00:35:36] I have I mantra. I do like a meditation mantra.
Tanya: [00:35:40] Excellent. So, next time you get one of those lovely pictures, do your, go straight into your mantra. Do some breathing, because your breathing, you can hear it disregulates quite a lot when you're anxious. Do some breathing, calm yourself down, then have that rational chat with your anxious [00:36:00] thoughts.
So, the anxious thoughts are, sort of put to bed. You have to challenge those thoughts, but if there's still lurking around in the background, think of them as gate crashers. Don't let them into the party, slam the door on those thoughts. We don't have to believe everything we think, our brain can sometimes play tricks on us when it's anxious.
Allie: [00:36:21] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:36:22] It's so important, we all know that. Don't believe everything, just because you think it doesn't make it true. 
Allie: [00:36:27] Yeah. Right. Yeah. I agree with that. 
Tanya: [00:36:29] See this for what it is, and then go and tell her how much you love her picture. 
It makes perfect sense. 
The only other bit I wanted to, sort of mention to you was the issue around work. The job you do is really important, and I really admire you for doing it. I know that people at the, in the role that you're in are very much front line. You really are the coalface, you know, you're the person who literally, as people come into A&E, you are there. To [00:37:00] sort of be there for them, to support them to, to, to look after them and help them, you know, as they go through to be assessed and supported and so on.
So you really see everything, in its rawness and it, and you must have seen and heard some truly, truly distressing things. 
Allie: [00:37:15] Yep. 
Tanya: [00:37:16] I would say to you and I speak to you, not as a... only as a professional, but also as a mother. I would say to you, think a lot about how work is only ever thought about in the context of work. Really be careful that you don't take what you've experienced at work, and somehow weave it back to your narrative about your child.
Allie: [00:37:41] Go on. 
Tanya: [00:37:44] What you see is difficult and shocking. Because of the anxiety you hold about your child, you make all these huge, great links and leaps around what you've seen with the very vulnerable young adults. And how you then believe that could be [00:38:00] yours daughter. And, for those of us who work in jobs, where we do see and hear things that are really dark and difficult, it's entirely possible that we could do that. But it is absolutely imperative that we hold on to a very tight professional boundary.
Allie: [00:38:19] How have you done that? 
Tanya: [00:38:22] I guess I feel I'm a version of myself at work, but I'm, I'm in a professional role. And, I'm thinking about what I'm experiencing in a particular way. I always have a journey from my place of work, back to my home. And during that journey, I will listen to things, podcasts, I will read things, I will, always see that as a moment of changing gears. 
Allie: [00:38:50] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:38:52] When I walk through the door, I feel like I've left my work at work and I'm now at home. [00:39:00] And unless I need to, depending on what I'm working with, I really don't think about work until I'm back at work. 
Allie: [00:39:09] Wow.
Tanya: [00:39:11] And I do that for a number of reasons, obviously, because I don't think it's fair on my family, if I start bringing work home. But actually, because I think if I didn't do that, I'd probably burn out. And my concern is you will eventually, and then if you burn out, you're no good to the people you're working with at work. And you're no good to the people you love at home. So, my advice would be to hold on some very tight boundaries around your working day.
Find some really good activities, games, you can play on your phone, things, you can read, podcasts, you can listen to, music, whatever meditations. 
Allie: [00:39:48] Yeah, I do, do all those things actually. I do.
Tanya: [00:39:50] I'm not surprised. But then, I think, if the thoughts keep coming in. Then, you use the app I told you about, or you [00:40:00] use this pen and paper exercise we talked about. What's my trigger. What are my thoughts? What are my feelings? What are my behaviors? And how am I now answering those thoughts. And rationally take a step back and go comparisons are odious. There is no crystal ball into my daughter's future. I see the love and security I give her. I understand the ways in which I can nurture her, throughout her development. I appreciate that I need to give her more space for her needs to be met, from in terms of our relationship. And I always have to remember that her pain isn't my pain.
And leave work at work. Everybody's stories are incredibly complex. Therefore, you can't assume that something that's happened to one person, is automatically going to happen to someone else. I've done nothing, but assume that this whole time. Assumption [00:41:00] is the mother of all fuck ups. 
Absolutely. 
Thank you for sharing your story and thank you for working so hard with me.
Allie: [00:41:06] It's been a pleasure.
Claudia: [00:41:14] What have you learned from being with Tan, do you think? 
Allie: [00:41:18] I've learned that my thoughts are not necessarily the reality of what's happening. And that, it's not the kind of, that it's not a done deal that she will be this tortured soul that I imagine her to be. 
Claudia: [00:41:36] She's having a totally different childhood from you.
Allie: [00:41:38] Yeah. Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:41:39] Incomparable.
Allie: [00:41:40] I know. 
Claudia: [00:41:41] I need to tell you that I will be sending you something, and that is a fridge magnet. 
Allie: [00:41:46] Okay.
Claudia: [00:41:47] For the next time she does a picture. And even if you don't want it, I'm going to send you almost the most disgusting fridge magnet...
Allie: [00:41:54] Oh, please do!
Claudia: [00:41:55] I can find.
Maybe a teacup or one of those pretend scones, [00:42:00] like a big, ugly thing.
Allie: [00:42:01] As long as it's not, Live, Life, Love. I can't cope with those ones. 
Claudia: [00:42:04] I could not agree more. 
Allie: [00:42:05] No. 
Claudia: [00:42:06] Thank you so much for coming in, Allie. Thank you. 
Give my love to Bea. 
I could feel next door, her breathing changed, it felt revelatory. And what she said to me at the end, just before she left, she said, I thought it was a done deal, that I had ruined this child. It is no longer a done deal. No. 
Tanya: [00:42:28] You know, it is always, possible with support, nurture, therapy, if needed to really address trauma. To be able to understand life experiences, even traumatic, horrific life experiences, and find ways to process them so that they don't have to affect the whole thing our lives.
I think it's also important to recognise, that no one's life is [00:43:00] free of trauma. And in fact, I often work with young people who have had such safe and privileged lives, where they have had no challenge, no difficulties, everything has been swept away from them before they even have to deal with it. You see the damage that does, as well.
And, these children lack resilience, because they've never really experienced anything that's hard to challenge them to work out how to deal with what they feel. So, the fact that Allie can leave here, recognising that she really is doing a good job loving her child and that what she's feeling has really nothing to do with her child, it is to do with her own childhood. 
I think that frees both hee and Bea up, to enjoy their relationship and for Bea to have the space, to bring her emotional concerns, issues, acting out behaviors to her mother, because her mother can stand back and stop [00:44:00] interrogating her, to check whether she's happy or not.
Claudia: [00:44:02] Yeah. And whether she means it.
Tanya: [00:44:04] And whether she means it, yeah. 
Claudia: [00:44:06] Tan. Thanks. 
Tanya: [00:44:08] Thank you. 
Claudia: [00:44:09] I liked that slow blink, because you are my wise owl. 
Tanya: [00:44:13] And you are my small orange. 
Claudia: [00:44:16] Marmoset. 
Tanya: [00:44:17] Marmoset.  
Claudia: [00:44:18] On that front!
Tanya: [00:44:20] You are off.
Claudia: [00:44:24] Befre you go, please remember to share this podcast widely, write a comment and rate us generously. If you don't mind, it may just help someone who has been through something similar. Thank you. If you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this episode, please see our program notes for information about further support and advice.
And, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here?, please email briefly describing your issue to how@somethinelse.com. That's how@somethinelse.com, without the G. [00:45:00] Next time we meet James. 
James: [00:45:01] I can sometimes to push a bit too hard, because I'm just like, I'm desperate for you to understand this. And it's like every day, youre having to keep proving yourself. I think the last few months, I've definitely found myself just burning out. I've like, I feel like I've been doing this kind of thing since I'm a kid. Constantly trying to prove that I'm worth having around. 
Claudia: [00:45:20] This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is Grace Laiker. The producer is Selina Ream, and the executive producer is Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening.