Claudia: [00:00:00] Please note, there is some adult themes and strong language within this podcast that may not be suitable for everyone. 
James: [00:00:13] I can sometimes push a bit too hard, because I'm just like, I'm desperate for you to understand this. And it's like everyday have to keep proving yourself. I think in the last few months I've definitely found myself just burning out. 
I feel like I've been doing this kind of thing since I was a kid, constantly trying to prove that I'm worth having around. 
Claudia: [00:00:32] Hello, thank you so much for choosing, How Did We Get Here? The podcast where me, Claudia Winkleman and my wonderful friend, clinical psychologist, Professor Tanya Byron, look at some of the difficulties that people face either themselves or with their families.
Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions, whilst I'm listening in from another roo. In the break and at the  end, I ask Tan a bit about her process, and we explore the issues that are raised. This time we meet [00:01:00] James, who is 31, works in advertising and has recently been diagnosed with anxiety and mild depression and wonders, what is behind it? Before lockdown, James went traveling on his own and says, it's the first time in 15 years, he's felt truly happy. He feels misunderstood. And often doesn't trust people.
James: [00:01:19] I've never been in a proper, longterm relationship.
Tanya: [00:01:21] Do you think, because of this. 
James: [00:01:23] I think it's partly, to do with this. I think there there've been things that have happened. It's definitely been tricky. 
Claudia: [00:01:30] What you're about to hear the key parts of a one-time, unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode, let's go and meet James.
How are you?
James: [00:01:53] Lovely to meet you.
Claudia: [00:01:53] Lovely to meet you. Thank you so much for coming in. 
James: [00:01:57] That's alright.
Claudia: [00:01:57] Tell me why you're here. 
James: [00:01:59] I've [00:02:00] felt, should we say well, 10 years, felt quite misunderstood and it got to a point where anxiety was starting to kick into it. And so, I went and spoke to some people did a bit of therapy and I've started to, I think, realise that it all comes from the core inner child in me.
Claudia: [00:02:17] Yeah. 
James: [00:02:18] Because, I think, it's affecting my decisions as like, as the adult version of me now. And I want to try and find a way to shift that balance. So like, this seven to 11 year old me, isn't having a little tantrum when I'm in meetings at work. And actually, the 31 year oldcme can be like, "no, no, we're going to do in a mature way."
Claudia: [00:02:36] I'm a grown up.
James: [00:02:36] Yeah, absolutely. 
Claudia: [00:02:37] Misunderstood, how? Friends? Work?
James: [00:02:41] By everyone. It seems to be, I've always had to prove in every area of my life, who I actually am, what I can bring to the table. And people will go like, oh, you know, but you're like this. And I'm like, you haven't got a clue what's going on with me and who I am.
And the [00:03:00] more that I've spent time in the last, maybe five or six years consciously trying to...
Claudia: [00:03:05] Show who you are.
James: [00:03:06] Show it from a very young age, I've never fully felt like the real me has been able to be expressive and out there. And it's happened a couple times, like the last year where I've been like shut down and I'm having to like overcompensate. 
Claudia: [00:03:18] Yes. Who are you? If you give me four adjectives to describe yourself and then tell me what people think you are.
James: [00:03:26] Yeah. I'd say kind and caring is one thing, a very energetic person, someone with a very loud imagination. I'm going to go for a couple more, just say intelligent, um, and incredibly empathetic. 
Claudia: [00:03:43] Yes.
James: [00:03:43] And I don't know if some of those actually come out. I know quite a few people think I can be quite cold individual. And I'm like, really? 
Claudia: [00:03:52] So, those are how you would describe yourself, kind, empathy, intelligent, enthusiastic. 
James: [00:03:58] Yes. 
Claudia: [00:03:58] If there was [00:04:00] somebody else here. And I said, how would you describe James? What words would they use? 
James: [00:04:06] I think some core, close friends would get what I've just said, but I think other people would say, "he can be a bit too much". Um, this is quite tricky, actually, just trying to think about it.
Claudia: [00:04:18] Tan herself, who is a genius and a queen, she asked me to use this with one of my kids once, who was having quite bad time at school. And she said, why don't you ask them the three words they want to be thought of as, and then ask them what they would be described as, and none of it...
it's quite interesting. In terms of people not understanding who you are, which probably just makes you want to shout louder, I'm this person, which might then just make them go down the route they were going down. Maybe. 
James: [00:04:53] I'm saying all this stuff that people seem to have a different perception of me, but then I'm struggling to actually pinpoint what it [00:05:00] is. 
Claudia: [00:05:00] Also, I think people think less about other people than we think they are. You know, that feeling, which is, "they think this of me", probably hasn't occurred to them. They were just eating a burger and went home. So, that might also be part of the anxiety thing, which is, am I getting myself across? Whereas, they're just having a fajita and having a nice time.
James: [00:05:21] I don't even trust my parents understand who I am sometimes. So, why I'm even going to try and put myself out to these people. 
Claudia: [00:05:27] Yeah. 
James: [00:05:27] I can't trust you to understand who I am. I can't trust you to respect. And should we say, look after that...
Nurture, yeah. 
That I've put in front of you. 
Claudia: [00:05:36] Goodbye.
James: [00:05:36] I'm not going to, yeah. I'm not going to trust you. And, I think that I've created that channel in my mind to get there quite quickly. That if I feel any sense of, I was going to take effort to make you understand who, like what, what goes through my head? I can't be bothered. You're not worth my time. 
Claudia: [00:05:50] So, you're quite.,I don't mean this in a bad way. So am I. You're, you're quite judgemental. Or not judgementaI, but you give people a [00:06:00] test. 
James: [00:06:00] Yeah. We'll go with judgmental. It's always used in a negative way, but it's not supposed to.. Like, I will, I will find myself quietly, analysing the person I'm speaking to picking up on certain things going, "Oh, they're reacting interesting with that, I wonder where that's come from. What's that? Okay. Why? Are they just being malicious now?" Like, and I like to build up a picture of someone.
Claudia: [00:06:20] Do you like people? 
James: [00:06:21] Yes. I find people fascinating. 
Claudia: [00:06:24] Are you positive about most humans? Do you think most people are good or lots of people are bad? 
James: [00:06:30] Yeah. I, I struggle to trust people to do the right thing or act in the right way.
Claudia: [00:06:36] To know who you are.
James: [00:06:37] Yeah. Yeah, I guess so 
Claudia: [00:06:39] This inner child then? 
James: [00:06:40] Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:06:40] Did something terrible happen to young James? 
James: [00:06:44] I don't think something specifically terrible happened. Me and my parents sometimes have like big blow ups, we did when I was a kid. And I always felt like they would get what they wanted to say out, and then, when I'd be like, "I'm going to tell you why I've gone through what I've [00:07:00] gone through to get here",  and I can see my dad putting his hand up and going, "I don't want to hear it". And it would set off, like, I didn't know. I think it was anxiety. I didn't know at the time, bundles of energy in my head that I couldn't get...
Claudia: [00:07:12] You're so frustrated. 
James: [00:07:13] Yeah. I can't get these words out. I can, if you give me 15 seconds, I think I can explain to you and reduce all the tension. I'm not saying what I did was right, but I can explain how we got there. And the argument would like escalate, because now it wasn't about the original topic. It's about you're not listening to me. I just want to be listened to. 
Claudia: [00:07:32] Then you come to the right place. I'm very pleased because that's Tom speciality.
Tanya: [00:07:41] It's really great to have a bloke. 
James: [00:07:44] This was important to me. 
Tanya: [00:07:45] Yeah. Tell me why. So, I just wanted to flag that. I think the whole male mental health conversation, we, we, we don't get very many men applying more and more actually. 
James: [00:07:54] Yeah. I would say I've and I've never shied away from this, I'm quite an emotional person. And definitely, in the last [00:08:00] five or six years, like having done therapy myself, I'm realising like how important it is to be able to talk about the things that are going on in your mind. With my friends, who are women, we talk openly about this stuff and my therapy. And when I talk to guys, you can see at first, they actually slightly recoil and then, they come a bit further forward.
Like I'm like, "guys, it's okay to talk about this stuff", but I don't think guys talk about the actual things that are going on in their mind. 
Tanya: [00:08:28] It's sad though, isn't it? The kind of socialisation, in terms of men and mental health. Because, we know that the suicide rates annually are, you know, almost 80% male. So, you know, it's just, it's just really great that you're... you want to do this, because it is, you know, as a role model, as a man, it's really important.
Okay. So it's interesting hearing the way Claude asks questions. And I was fascinated by a couple of things that came out of that chat. And I think you are as well, [00:09:00] the first one where she asked you to describe yourself and then describe how others would see you. It's kind of interesting, isn't it? You don't feel understood, but you can't articulate what, what isn't happening.
James: [00:09:12] I'm very all or nothing. I've learned this through therapy, that I really go into something and it's a good thing and a bad thing. I know people can see that and sometimes look at it like it's a negative.
Tanya: [00:09:23] My job in a way as a clinician, is to challenge beliefs that people hold, because it may, it may be that those beliefs in and of themselves could be part of the difficulties that they're struggling with. Question number one, very direct, 
James: [00:09:38] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:09:39] I don't always feel understood you say 
James: [00:09:42] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:09:43] Who does? 
James: [00:09:45] That's a heavy question. Um, I guess my answer would have to be, I don't know. 
Tanya: [00:09:50] So, therefore is being understood all the time, a prerequisite to being content. 
[00:10:00] James: [00:10:02] Because I have to then feel that I've got to put energy into proving?
Tanya: [00:10:06] Why? Do people not have a right to their opinion around something or their perception? 
James: [00:10:12] Oh, they have a right to the opinion and perception. I just want to know that they they've, they've totally got what I'm saying or who I am or, and let me think about this. 
Tanya: [00:10:25] It's really stumped you and, and, and I really want, that's what I want to dig into. Because I think, my concern would be if you had tons more inner-child type therapy, you would spend a lot of time really understanding yourself, which PS, by the way, I think you already do.
I think you really do, in a very impressive way. It's about, well, if I know my inner self, I need other people to understand my inner self [00:11:00] in order for our interactions to work. And that feels like quite a massive expectation in relationships. 
James: [00:11:09] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:11:10] Okay. Second, what could be quite a blunt thing to say?
James: [00:11:15] Let's go for it. 
Tanya: [00:11:16] I was listening to you talking to Claude, about your parents and I was thinking, I maybe could understand why at some point your father might say, "James, enough". And what you perceive is a parent going, "I'm not interested in who you are", but I'm just thinking, maybe there's something about you that is quite challenging for people who interact with you. Because, you have a very specific need for people to always understand your point of view. And you struggle to tolerate the fact that maybe people see it differently, don't agree with you and that's life. 
James: [00:11:56] Yeah. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's correct that, that's the [00:12:00] case. But I want to try and find a way to move past it, so I can just be a bit more content with feeling like people understand me or just being happy that it's not a problem if they don't. To kind of just use an example, is like in, in my line of work, um, I work as a creative in advertising. We create ideas, we then have to share that with the client, and it's a constant having to find soft ways to prove to these people that this is a good idea. I can sometimes push a bit too hard, because I'm just like, I'm desperate for you to understand this. And it's like every day, you have to keep proving yourself. I think in the last few months, I've definitely found myself just burning out. I've  ike, God, I've been, I feel like I've been doing this kind of things since I was a kid, constantly trying to prove that I'm worth having around. I've got friends who would say, well, we know that you're worth having around. 
Tanya: [00:12:50] Do you reassurance-seek a lot  from friends? But, it's interesting when you say friends say no, but we love having you around and you're great. 
James: [00:12:55] It doesn't strike a chord in my head. Sometimes, they say it and I'm like, [00:13:00] it's not what I want to hear. 
Tanya: [00:13:01] That you're absolutely right. And I think that's because, it doesn't really matter what anyone will say, it'll never be enough. I that's, that's my sense. And I think it's because, you're looking in the wrong direction for the ability to change the way you feel. And that's what I really want to talk to you about today, is about how you can do this. 
James: [00:13:22] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:13:22] I'm trying to imagine you as a child. Because you know, there's some instance in your childhood that you, you still remember, don't you? Of not, as not being heard, not understood. 
James: [00:13:30] Yeah. I must've been seven. We lived just outside Birmingham. I remember feeling very comfortable and content and happy. And then, I remember there was some murmurings that we were looking at moving house and I wasn't happy about this. I remember getting back from school one day, and the for sale sign had gone up above the house and I was so angry. I actually think I thumped my mum on her arm.
I think I was annoyed that [00:14:00] like my opinion didn't feel strong in this situation. 
You were seven. 
I was seven. 
Do you still resent them for that? 
I don't think so, because... 
But you still hold onto the memory. 
It's still there. 
You felt really let down? 
I felt massively let down. 
And I think you hold onto that feeling with your parents even to today, don't you?
Yeah. That's and then additions onto that through time. Whether it's been, as I mentioned earlier, the arguments were whether it's right or wrong, I've felt, I'm not being totally understood. It felt like it's stemmed from this. 
Claudia: [00:14:34] Okay. I just want to pause because I'd really like to ask what does 'understanding me' even mean?
I mean, of course we're made up of all kinds of things. We feel strongly about this. We won't feel strongly about that, but it's, I think it's much more sketchy. 
James: [00:14:50] It means this, whatever experience, whatever conversation, evokes huge anxiety in me. I don't know how [00:15:00] to manage that anxiety, but if you could understand how I feel, you would speak to me differently. Or you would behave differently and then I would feel better and then everything would be fine.
Claudia: [00:15:11] So I will feel soothed. 
Tanya: [00:15:13] Exactly. 
Claudia: [00:15:13] If you go, "I hear you". 
Tanya: [00:15:15] But it's not just, I hear you. I hear you, my seven year old child and we won't move. 
Claudia: [00:15:21] And I will act on it. 
Tanya: [00:15:22] Yes. 
Claudia: [00:15:23] Goodness me. Thanks, Tan. Let's go back to the session. 
Tanya: [00:15:27] You were just saying recently, in work and you almost burned out, because you felt you had to really argue your case, really argue your case, people didn't understand.
I suppose I would say the common denominator, is you. It's something about the way people respond to something in you, when you start to communicate in a certain way. Where does the change need to happen? 
James: [00:15:51] The change needs to happen, I'd say within me, because that's how the world is. 
Tanya: [00:15:57] Yeah. 
James: [00:15:58] I might not [00:16:00] like bits of it or, or certain people will get wound up by it and think, you know, why aren't you trying hard enough to understand or appreciate me. And I go, "well, hang on, like that ain't changing. So, maybe you need to find a way to, find a way to slot into it a little bit more". 
Tanya: [00:16:14] It's interesting when you articulate it like that, and that was really clearly articulated. 'Why aren't you trying to do more to understand me?', There's something very childlike about that, isn't there? 
James: [00:16:25] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:16:26] It's almost like that part of you hasn't really matured, that emotional part of you, the ability to tolerate the fact that some people will get you, some people won't and that's kind of okay.
And the ability to tolerate that in relationships, without the relationship suddenly feeling that it's not working. How are you with dating and relationships, generally? 
James: [00:16:51] I've never been in a proper, longterm relationship.
Tanya: [00:16:53] Do you think it's because of this? 
James: [00:16:55] I think it's partly to do with this. I think that there have, there have been things that have [00:17:00] happened that have, then caused me to be like, I haven't felt what I believe, like strong enough rewards for who I actually am.
Tanya: [00:17:08] What do you mean strong enough rewards? What do you feel you need? 
James: [00:17:11] Never had a longterm relationship and I feel like I should have done. I feel like, for who I am and what I can offer, like, I might sound arrogant when I say it, I'm like, I felt like that should have happened by now. And with work, like, I feel like I should have achieved more for who I am. 
Tanya: [00:17:26] You're a very chilled guy. You know, you're sitting here now. You're not, I've worked with a lot of people and obviously we've done a lot of these podcasts. And there are some people who sit there and you can see they're shaking and they're anxious. You're not, you're very relaxed, but I think you have an internalised background noise of anxiety and self doubt, all the time.
It's like the wallpaper to your life.
James: [00:17:47] Yeah, it feels like it's always on. 
Tanya: [00:17:49] I mean, it must be exhausting in there. 
It is exhausting. 
Tell me about that. Because you're getting tearful. 
Yeah. Um, I can find myself waking up in the morning, [00:18:00] for maybe 45 seconds feeling like a breath of fresh air is just passing through my mind. And then it feels like, right, let's put all the building blocks back on us, before we go out the bedroom and we start our day and I've been doing that. I can, I've been doing that since I was like consciously, since I was 15. 
Why did you get tearful there? What did you connect with? That's so important. 
I just want to hug and just someone to just hold me and let me, let it all just melt away. And I can just sit there in a comfortable feeling of just with, I don't know who this person is, but just kind of going, they've got me. I can just have a break from it. 
If I can get a sense of this part of you, that is calmer, less introspective, more connected with me. I see, I see you. 
Should we just chill and watch TV for a bit?
I think that's the person you need to have a relationship with. Yeah. Yeah. And that's [00:19:00] what worries me I think you go on dates, you overthink it. You overthink, you overanalyse. One thing I'm going to try and help you think about, in terms of onwards, is thinking about the relationship, between your anxiety and your need to be in control.
And that control can extend across a number of areas. Including, you're trying to control the narrative. So, you can control that other, that other people see you and see what you're thinking in the way that you are. It's impossible. You'll never be happy. You've got to accept difference. You've got to accept the fact that there are some things you can't control. There are things you can't change. I think, you expect that things aren't going to go the right way, unless you're on top of it and managing it and in control and in charge. And by the way, I need to really tell you about why I thought this and this project, and I can sort of see why as [00:20:00] a child, your parents may have sometimes just said, "shh". 
James: [00:20:07] Yeah. 
When I quit my job at the end last year. So to go away, it's the first time that I've gone away on my own. I was in Hawaii and I was with some people that never met before. And they were like, why don't we do this? And there's part of me going, like, I don't know how it works. I don't know the process.
Tanya: [00:20:36] Anxiety.
James: [00:20:36] Yeah yeah. Kicked in. And I remember saying to myself, "you're not going to die". 
Tanya: [00:20:40] Well done. 
James: [00:20:41] Just go along with it. 
Tanya: [00:20:42] Well done you. 
James: [00:20:43] I mean, there are few instance, where I potentially could have died, but yeah, like every time I could feel my back going up and getting a little bit tense, I'd go, "you're not going to die". And it could become something amazing, which almost every time, it did become something amazing. [00:21:00] Because, I just didn't feel like I was proving myself to anyone. 
Tanya: [00:21:03] But you would try not to control the narrative. You were, you were trying not to control what they thought of you and you were trying not to control what was being done. You just went with the flow. 
James: [00:21:12] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:21:13] Your brain must have felt like so chilled.
James: [00:21:16] It was absolute joy. One image in my head, we've got back to the hostel and I remember just going up onto the, there was like a rooftop-y bit.And I was just, at that moment in time, just feeling like, I am in this moment. Now I remember going, I'm sitting here, the sun is shining and everything feels right and good and I was just me.
Tanya: [00:21:38] Contentment came from something very different and it wasn't about other people. It was about something different in you, when you were away. What was it? 
James: [00:21:49] All that was stripped away. The focus was just on me and who I am. 
Tanya: [00:21:51] Living in the moment. 
James: [00:21:52] And that's what I'm putting out to these people. 
Tanya: [00:21:54] And did you feel more understood?
James: [00:21:56] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:21:57] Did you feel that people were just chill and happy to [00:22:00] be with you. 
James: [00:22:00] I, I just sit and people just come and hang out with me. 
Tanya: [00:22:05] But, you got it because you presented yourself, in a very different way. Look, I'm doing something that no one can see, because we're doing a podcast. So I'll describe it. I've got a fist here in front of you, right?
James: [00:22:16] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:22:16] Okay, so this fist represents you. It's your core personality. As I read it, I think you are a very bright, very thoughtful, very sensitive man. Getting back to it, here's the fist, here's your personality. And then, here's this cloud that sits over it, of intense anxiety, that skews the perception of others, of who you really are. Because, the anxiety then brings you out, in a way that isn't necessarily who you are, which is why you don't feel understood.
James: [00:22:56] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:22:57] What I need to help you think about, is how [00:23:00] you learn to manage your inner child. Because the reality is, you're an adult. 
James: [00:23:06] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:23:08] How do you learn to do that for yourself? 
James: [00:23:13] That was a big question. 
Tanya: [00:23:14] Well, that's the question we have to answer. So, I think we should take a break and I'm going to ask you to do a task. I would like you to think of your brain at the moment, and understand that when you're anxious in a child is chatting, it is the anxious, limbic areas of your brain. 
James: [00:23:32] Wow. What does that mean? 
Tanya: [00:23:34] There are some areas of our brain that are part of our anxiety response. And when we are connected with those areas of our brain, our thinking becomes very skewed, in an anxiety direction. We overthink, we catastrophise, we try and control, that's the very primitive, anxious parts of our brain. The bit of our brain that is developed in adult hood is the prefrontal cortex. This is the bit that you're with with me now. 
James: [00:23:58] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:23:58] The thoughtful part of the [00:24:00] brain. And that's your adult self, and I don't think that part of you gets a lot of room, because the anxiety bits are chatting, chatting, chatting, chatting, chatting, you agree?
James: [00:24:11] Yes. 100%. 
Tanya: [00:24:12] And so, I would like you to write a letter to a seven year old boy, trying to describe to him how you, and he can join together to manage that anxiety and feel differently. And for your inspiration for that part of your letter, really think about how things were different when you were abroad. As soon as you become perfectionist and anxious about this task, take a deep breath, look around the room. What can you see? What can you smell? What you can hear, ground yourself and then get back to it.
[00:25:00] James: [00:25:00] Okay.
Claudia: [00:25:02] We've had lots of people on this show before and they have looked anxious. Either their leg shaking or their just slightly jumpy movements. They look nervous. James doesn't look anxious and I'm just fascinated, because he is. 
Tanya: [00:25:25] James has just significant levels of internalised anxiety. He's just got this inner anxious voice. Almost like a bully in his head, that's just churning in his head over and over and over again, trying to avoid feeling. And when he contacts his, his feelings, you can see that he calms right down. 
Claudia: [00:25:47] A, that must be exhausting for him. 
Tanya: [00:25:49] He is exhausted. You can see he's exhausted. 
Claudia: [00:25:51] And B, he doesn't want to let the feelings in. So, instead he just internalises everything. 
Tanya: [00:25:59] It kind of [00:26:00] kicks in. And the only time he really gets any respite, is when he's asleep.
Claudia: [00:26:04] Goodness me, poor guy. 
Tanya: [00:26:05] But, I was just wondering, when you were listening to that Claude, do you think he'll feel, that I'm another person who's not understanding him? 
Claudia: [00:26:11] That will be my last question to him. I mean, somebody told me very early on in my life, a girl called Jay, okay she's listening. She said, "what other people think of you, is none of your business. You try and be charming. You try and ask questions, you try and be lovely. And of course you make an effort to make people like you, but if they don't, you know, you haven't failed. So be it, lots of people won't". I'm going to bring him in.
James: [00:26:46] So I wrote it as a letter, as if I was speaking to the little guy. And, so what I wrote was, so it was "Hello mate, things feel a little big in that little mind of yours, don't they? And no one seems to quite get [00:27:00] it or think of you. Dude. I get it. Mom and dad moving to Oxfordshire was a shock, but dude, it's all okay. Mum and dad do care for you. People care about you. I know you constantly think no one sees it, but they do 100%. People know you're talented, you don't need to keep trying to prove it. And I've got you, maybe like a big brother. I know we get wound up easily, but when we don't, the world feels a lot calmer and nicer.
Remember when we went to Hawaii, we got through the scariness of a solo trip and just did it. How awesome was that? Let go and let the world do its thing. It will make us and you well happy. Chill dude. We've got this. 
Tanya: [00:27:40] Your little mate, the dude. 
James: [00:27:42] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:27:44] He's cute. I like him. I can imagine little James. He shouts very loud sometimes, and it's so hard to be that big brother or to be that adult version of yourself, because you very quickly get caught up in the anxiety.
So, I think, that's what we need to think about is how you [00:28:00] achieve that, because life isn't always a summer holiday or a nice trip abroad. We don't always have to be in control, because the world will look after us, but sometimes it doesn't, sometimes really bad things happen. So, it's also having the confidence to know, that you would be able to find a way through it. The problem with anxiety and I think you know this better than anyone, is anxiety causes us only to look risk and threat. It doesn't enable us to look beyond that and think, "we got this". 
James: [00:28:38] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:28:38] It's not about everyone else understanding you. It's about, as soon as that feeling gets triggered in you and you can feel you're over-talking, over-worrying, that's you catching the little dude. 
James: [00:28:52] Yeah. And it's something that in the past, like, you know, I've learned about practice, certain [00:29:00] techniques to try and break that thinking. It feels like it's gonna be more effort to try and do that than to simply embrace this chaos, which seems to be almost like. Addictive in a way, such as a bundle of energy that I think I've got almost like, so used to.
Tanya: [00:29:19] It's just fascinating you said the addiction. Because, before I met you having researched a little bit from you applying to be on the show. I, for some reason, reminded myself of the serenity prayer. Do you know the serenity prayer?
James: [00:29:34] I do not, no.
Tanya: [00:29:34] I printed it out, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So listen to this. Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Courage to change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference. 
James: [00:29:49] Quite like a bit more of that wisdom. 
Tanya: [00:29:51] Some people will recognise this, because this is the, the serenity prayer they use in the fellowship in AA and NA, Alcoholics Anonymous and [00:30:00] Narcotics Anonymous.
So, you know, the huge worldwide support group, for people with addiction issues. 
James: [00:30:06] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:30:07] Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change is a really important part of how you learn to look after yourself. Because, when we get anxious, we need to control. And if we're anxious about things that we can't really control, knowing whether this person is going to be a relationship that's going to move into something lifelong. Knowing whether our colleague is really going to go with our creative pitch. We cannot control other people, but the problem is you try and do that. 
James: [00:30:45] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:30:46] It's about just looking at your anxiety and going, I don't have to control everything, because that's actually, actually, that's not possible. 
James: [00:30:54] You're not going to die if it doesn't go that way.
Tanya: [00:30:57] Decatastrophise... 
James: [00:30:58] yeah. 
[00:31:00] Tanya: [00:30:58] anxiety. So, really, it's so important that we build that into our children, as a resilience, a part of resilience. So the task is, how do you become your own hug, your own self sooth? 
James: [00:31:13] I think the first thing, is recognising it, when it happens. 
Tanya: [00:31:17] Agree. 
James: [00:31:18] Facts. Right, what, what is actually happening and what will that actually mean? I'm telling myself this is the one and only thing that matters in the world. And the fact is, actually, there's going to be lots of opportunities like this that come along. This one might not go where you want it to, but it doesn't mean it's the only one.
Tanya: [00:31:35] But that's CBT, isn't it. You've had CBT and, and, and that's a really good cognitive strategy you're using. So, in Cognitive Behavior Therapy, what we help people learn, is ways in which you can talk back to that anxious voice. 
James: [00:31:47] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:31:47] I think you're almost there, to be honest, but I think it's just completing the journey, the reassuring bit. Slow down. It's going to be okay. Just take a few breaths, [00:32:00] that, that voice that you're talking about, that we all need in ourselves. You were saying to me earlier, I need somebody to do that for me. 
James: [00:32:10] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:32:10] You need to do it for yourself. So, therefore, in order to do that, what are you highlighting that you need to be able to do when you feel yourself spinning out? 
James: [00:32:21] Whether it's like pulling it back, everything back to me for a second. 
Tanya: [00:32:24] Yes. Perfectly right. So in order to pull it back to you, the thing you need to learn is mindfulness. Do you remember, I don't know if you do, because I did a mini mindfulness thing with you before the break, but I didn't tell you what I was doing it. 
James: [00:32:40] That's cheeky
Tanya: [00:32:40] I'm so cheeky. Everybody Claud's the cheeky one. She's not, she's a sensible school prefect. I'm the cheeky one. 
That's fair. 
See if you can remember, I said, look, you might find this really hard. You might not know, by the way that letter was brilliant, so you didn't. But, you might find this really hard, you might not know how to write it, but if you can feel yourself getting quite anxious, trying to [00:33:00] do it. Just do these things.
James: [00:33:04] Just take a moment, look around the room, taking the sounds, smells, bring yourself back to you and then go again.
Tanya: [00:33:12] Its' called Grounding. I basically threw you a grounding technique. I think what you would benefit from, and I think you'd be really actually good at, but I think you'll find it very difficult to learn, but once you've learned it, I think you'll be really good at it, is Meditative Mindfulness. 
I'd really recommend you, you put yourself on a course with a really good teacher who teaches people with racing, anxious brains to find a different way to think in those moments. Quite a few years ago, as a clinician, I was talking to all the people I work with, you know, I'd like to prescribe mindfulness training. I'd like to prescribe mindfulness and I thought, you know, I'm a bit of a hypocrite [00:34:00] and I was sort of avoiding learning it ,because you know, the first thing empty your mind. I'm in my head, I'm going, what do you mean empty mind? How would you and what my mind isn't empty, is it? Because you've told me to empty it. 
James: [00:34:12] You've litereally put things in it by telling me not to.
Tanya: [00:34:15] Exactly. I remember the day that mindfulness suddenly, I suddenly got it. And we can't feel it all the time, but in those moments where life gets busy and crowded and that inner voice just starts taking over. Or, there's just a lot of stress and a lot of things you have to deal with. It is amazing to be able to take yourself somewhere else in your head, to do what you said to yourself in that letter. We got this.
James: [00:34:44] Okay. 
Tanya: [00:34:44] You know, people with heads like yours are prescribed medication, right? To help with anxiety, I'm preferring to prescribe to you, mindfulness and meditation. I want you to understand, that by using that word, I'm saying to you, it is [00:35:00] not in your best interests not to pursue it and make it work for you.
James: [00:35:05] It's a repeat prescription. 
Tanya: [00:35:07] Absolutely. 
James: [00:35:08] Yep. 
Tanya: [00:35:08] James, it's been a real pleasure. 
James: [00:35:10] Thank you very much.
Claudia: [00:35:15] Tell me what you've gleaned. Like, if you're leaving here and you're going to phone either your mum or a best mate and go," Oh, I've met Todd, and this is what I'm going to do". What's that list? 
James: [00:35:25] Creating a pause for myself. Recognising when it's going a bit, this is a bit intense, we're very much lost in the storm of that inner child. Finding the moments to pause and very much the meditation and the mindfulness, that needs to be focused on. Which I think, you know, when I heard that word mindfulness, my initial response, and I imagine it's like a lot of people like, "Oh, that sounds a bit like airy fairy". I can't be bothered with that.
Claudia: [00:35:49] It sounds like hard work, that's what I think. 
James: [00:35:51] But then, definitely, when you detach your, your perception of what the airy fairy-ness is. And actually, when we talked about how mindfulness was me being on that [00:36:00] rooftop in Hawaii, and you touch a real life scenario, you go, "oh, that's what it is".
Claudia: [00:36:04] Yes.
James: [00:36:04] "Oh, it's not the airy fairy stuff it's actually, these wonderful things that happen". It's just, and then it feels a bit more attainable and something that you relate to and you want to do more of.
Claudia: [00:36:13] Yeah, because you've experienced it. Because you know that feeling, you know how it makes you and you know how it makes other people around you react to you.
James: [00:36:19] Excatly. 
Claudia: [00:36:20] You came in here when we first met, a while back, you said that you felt misunderstood. Do you feel that about us? Do you feel like you have been understood today?  If that's not a weird question. 
James: [00:36:32] Yes, I do. Actually a big smile came across my face when we talked earlier. I hadn't gone into all the things that I thought about myself and yet they were thrown my way. And I was like, "Oh yeah, that's, that's me. Oh, I'm so happy someone that someone knows that I'm like that. And I think about myself like that too". And you're like, it felt very warm to get that. 
Claudia: [00:36:52] Yeah. Good luck. And please let us know what happens.
James: [00:36:55] I will do.
Claudia: [00:36:59] I [00:37:00] don't know why I'm surprised by this, because I really shouldn't be. We've been great friends for 16 years. But, every time it happens, because I'm going to be honest with you, when James first came in, I met him, I, I didn't know what it was. I sort of thought, that he was 30 and I didn't see anxiety at all. That was a shock, because he's so relaxed, he was wearing a Hawaiian shirt, he looked chill. 
So, I thought that's not that, maybe it's something else, maybe it has something to do with when they moved house, I thought you were going down a certain route and I have to say, I've just said goodbye to him. He skipped out of here. When the end, when he realised it's just him. It's not other people misunderstanding him. It's not other people, who are in the wrong. It's not other people who don't really get it. He just has to be super calm. And when he is ,extraordinary things happen, how do you do that? 
Tanya: [00:37:53] You did it, Claude.
Claudia: [00:37:55] Okay! 
Tanya: [00:37:56] Claudia.
Claudia: [00:37:58]  (inaudible) Enormous lunch.
Tanya: [00:37:59] Claudia [00:38:00] Ann Winkelman, this is my stern voice. Your instincts, when you interview people are always really spot on. And it was so interesting, the chat you had with James, before I first met him. 
Claudia: [00:38:15] The adjectives. 
Tanya: [00:38:16] It, yes, it was that. And it was just you, sort of digging around, this sort of self and other stuff. You picked up that there was this exactly, as you say, his idea that the whole of the world didn't understand him.
But when you dug into it, you also identified with him very quickly, that he couldn't really articulate how or why. James presents as a very, kind of, curious form of anxiety, because he's not palpably anxious. 
Claudia: [00:38:49] That's exactly right. 
Tanya: [00:38:50] But his brain is constantly hypervigilant, constantly overactive, thinking. I mean, control, control, control. And when [00:39:00] he is in a place where he can connect into himself, in a very different way. Which is basically disconnect from that part of his brain that is thinking, thinking, thinking, he experienced his life and other people experience him in a way that is just, he's just more content. So, this isn't just asking someone to go... 
Claudia: [00:39:23] And hum on a mat for five minutes.
Tanya: [00:39:25] Exactly. It's about doing something that. That's why I use the word, prescribed. 
Claudia: [00:39:31] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:39:31] I'm saying, this is going to have health benefits at a number of levels. You need to do it and you need to take it seriously. And just because it's difficult, it doesn't mean to say it won't be beneficial because it will. 
Claudia: [00:39:46] Gosh, you're clever and you do it.
Tanya: [00:39:48] Yeah. But, I can do it now and it is utterly life changing. 
Claudia: [00:39:53] Oh my goodness. Okay. 
Tanya: [00:39:55] Should we go and do some? Do you want me to s... 
Claudia: [00:39:57] Shall we? Well, after a snack. Well, I have a snack, but you know what [00:40:00] I've bought us?
Tanya: [00:40:00] What? 
Claudia: [00:40:01] A baguette. 
Tanya: [00:40:03] Alright baguette, then meditation. 
Claudia: [00:40:06] Done.
And remember, do subscribe to this wherever you get your podcasts, to receive free new episodes, as soon as they come out. And please tell everyone, share this rate and comment, we would be ever so grateful. If you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this episode, please see our program notes for information about further support and advice.
And if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here?, please email briefly describing a ratio to how@somethinelse.com. That's how@somethinelse.com without the G. Next time we meet Claire. 
Claire: [00:40:51] He was lying. He wasn't him and that like he's smiling in that picture but, behind that, is this other life.
Claudia: [00:40:58] This podcast was [00:41:00] made by the team. It's Somethin' Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The assistant producer is grace Laiker. The producer is Selina Ream and the executive producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman. Thank you so much for listening.