Claudia: [00:00:00] Please, please note this episode contains some emotional content, including discussion around suicide and may not be suitable for all listeners. 
Clare: [00:00:17] He was lying. He 
wasn't him in that like 
he's smiling in that picture but behind that is this other life. 
Claudia: [00:00:25] Hello, and welcome to how did we get here? I'm Claudia Winkleman here with my great friend clinical 
psychologist, Professor Tanya Byron.
In 
this podcast, we look at some of the difficulties people face in their daily lives, either personally or with their families. Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions whilst I'm listening in from another room in the break. And at the end, I ask Tanya a bit about her process and we explore the issues that are raised.
This time, we meet Claire a 22 year old student who has been facing mental health challenges for a number of years. She's had some professional help, but feels she hasn't got a complete diagnosis and is confused about how her difficulties can be managed. When Claire was 11, her father was arrested in front of her and was subsequently imprisoned for fraud.
Claire's world was turned upside down. Her lifestyle changed and her family fell apart. 
Clare: [00:01:19] It's like a soap opera, but like, I think I probably hadn't even seen Coronation Street at that age. And it was like, you just don't think that stuff happens, but it obviously does. 
Claudia: [00:01:27] What you're about to hear are the key parts of a onetime unscripted session with a real person.
We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode. Before we meet Claire, please note that she starts our chat speaking very, very fast. As she tells her story, Tanya then helps her to realize this and slow down.
Okay, let's go and meet her. Thank you so much for coming. 
Clare: [00:01:57] No problem at all. No problem. 
Claudia: [00:01:59] Why are you here? 
Clare: [00:02:00] Um, I feel like I've had depression now for 18 months nearly, so it's been quite a long time. I had a kind of episode when I was younger as well for like a year. So it's really kind of impacted my life and especially trying to get a degree.
Claudia: [00:02:13] What does it feel like when you're in it? 
Clare: [00:02:15] Oh it is so consuming. It's kind of, for me, like it gets when you get to that point where like it's easier to sleep rather than being awake and having to like, be so consumed and overwhelmed by all these like negative thoughts. So it is when people say it's like a dark cloud, that's kind of what it's like.
I feel like even if you're functioning to some degree, it's always still there. It's always just like so negative and dark. 
Claudia: [00:02:35] How are family and friends?
Clare: [00:02:37] Family for me is a difficult one. It's kind of, I definitely find it easier to speak to my friends about it then family. So I've got quite a small family anyway, but then my mom, brother, and that's kind of really it, we just don't have that sort of relationship in a way, which is a shame because it would be nice to sort of think that'd be one element of support.
Then friends then kind of external. 
Claudia: [00:02:55] Is that because they don't understand it?
Clare: [00:02:57] That has kind of always been a massive kind of shove everything under the rug in my family. It's always. No one really deals with anything properly in that way. Like, we don't really speak, um, on like a deeper level. So I think I've always because growing up like  that, I suppose I'm from, it feels really abnormal and uncomfortable to them.
Claudia: [00:03:11] You want answers? 
Clare: [00:03:13] Yeah. Just give me more answers and kind of how to live with it a bit better. 
Claudia: [00:03:16] Really. And deal 
Clare: [00:03:17] with 
it.
Claudia: [00:03:18] I'm going to say something really odd. Now you are. Beautiful bubbly, incredibly articulate. I'm not saying that you don't have depression. Of course you do. But have you got very good at covering? 
Yeah, and 
Clare: [00:03:31] it is, I feel guilty for that because it's like people in my family are the most honest people in the world.
So I've always kind of grown up thinking like, honesty is the best policy like it is. But I think this feels like a crime. It feels like I've like done the summit. And then I haven't told anyone about it and it's like, I'm just living this like false reality. 
Claudia: [00:03:48] That's knackering
Clare: [00:03:50] yeah, it's exhausting. I think because that's the part of my personality that I've always had that I like in the sense of being bubbly and chatty and my mom's exactly the same like that.
But then when I've been obviously very low and depressed and not leaving the house and very isolated, like I'm then that person, but then I just get confused of who I am like now, because with depression, I feel like you do just sort of lose yourself and yeah, it's very complicated. Isn't it ?
Claudia: [00:04:11] It is complicated and as I say, masking is exhausting and might not be.
I don't know enough and thank goodness the professors here might not be getting to the root cause if we pretend we're fine and we're not fine, 
Clare: [00:04:22] I've definitely tried to learn to be more authentic with it over time. Um, but it's, hasn't been that that's something that you find quite hard. 
Claudia: [00:04:28] Does it manifest itself in any other ways?
Are you very organized? Do you. Suffer from anxiety. Do you tidy? 
Clare: [00:04:36] I mean, I'm very like perfectionist. I feel like from when I was young, I've always been academically like wanting to strive and do well in that area. And I think I didn't have anything else that I was really like really passionate about or really like, uh, goals in any other way.
It's like, What else have I got going for me? Like what else? 
Claudia: [00:04:53] I think, whatever you do, you're going to be brilliant at it. I mean, it, I hope you run the world, 
Clare: [00:04:59] You're so sweet. 
No, 
Claudia: [00:05:00] I mean, it, I'm going to get the professor.
Tanya: [00:05:07] You're saying, I need clarity about my mental health and wellbeing. I need to understand it better. 
Clare: [00:05:13] People are saying, Oh, have you thought about this? You know, bipolar of autism PTSD, 
Tanya: [00:05:19] who's saying all this to you. 
Clare: [00:05:21] Well, the counselor people at uni GP 
Tanya: [00:05:24] be really cautious of people who think they understand mental health and start throwing.
Mental health diagnosis around. Yeah, it's a bit like, you know, if you had a physical health problem, you wouldn't really take advice from someone who had a first aid training. So I think number one, let's just be clear that in order to understand things, we have to really. Be careful of what we read, how we use our search engine online, the forums that we're going into, the labels that are thrown around second thing then is something about.
Uh, diagnosis anyway. Um, because my sense is you sort of know that the, what you struggle with is depression because you've experienced it. Yeah. It sounds to me like you also know that you've also struggled with anxiety. 
Clare: [00:06:35] Obviously I will look back, I'm thinking, you know, I was probably an anxious kid as well, but definitely in the last year, I feel like.
I became anxious of anything because I think I was just so withdrawn for so long. 
Tanya: [00:06:45] It sounds like from what you're describing, anxiety has been around since childhood. The anxiety's still there. It's exhausting and depression then might just roll in. Sometimes depression is a way of just going stop. Yeah.
Claudia: [00:07:05] Okay. It's me Claud. Um, you said to her, which I'd never heard before depression. Can often appear almost as a way of coping. Can you tell me a bit more about that? 
Tanya: [00:07:15] People who struggle with clinical depression will describe it as a sense of feeling numb, unable to function. It's almost like sort of psychologically you just shut down.
Right. And that is a way of coping as much as. Drinking, you know, half a bottle or a bottle of whiskey every night, or right. Self-harming or overeating or going, and just beating people up because it's a way of almost narcotizing oneself from the pain of the reality of whatever, the experience that sits behind.
Yeah. Is depression can feel like a big  duvet that you just wrap yourself in. And actually that's often when people become very unwell with depression, that's often what will happen. They can't get out of bed. Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:08:07] She said it's just easier to sleep. 
Tanya: [00:08:09] Sleep is the most amazing avoidant response. Isn't it? And people can get so unwell.
They sleep all the time. They stop eating, they stopped sharing. It's really. Hard. And that's why we have to be so careful when we say, Oh, I'm so depressed. No, no, no. That's not depression. Depression is, is a really, really difficult experience to live with. But sometimes it might be the only thing that somebody can do when the pain is so gray and the confusion is so gray.
It's almost like checking out for a while. 
Claudia: [00:08:42] Yes. Back to the session. 
Tanya: [00:08:45] I think the label really that you need is. Claire you. Hmm. I think we need to put you up front and we need to then think about all the different aspects of you. Bubbly, intelligent, you know, doing a vocational university degree, going into a fantastic career.
You know, you're a daughter, you're a, you're a sister, you know, you're a friend. And then we also say, She struggled with anxiety from childhood and she's had a bout, of depression in her mid to late adolescents because the anxiety has never really been fully understood. Yeah. 
Clare: [00:09:27] Yeah. Yeah. It's true. 
Tanya: [00:09:28] And I would like to suggest that maybe that's.
All you need to know really what we want to focus on. How can you manage it? Yeah. But when you were talking to Claud and obviously  you had only  just met her and this is all new and you're being terribly brave, and you're the youngest person we've talked to. So we're really proud of you for being here.
Thank you. Now I'm really proud, but. Your speech rate is off the scale 
Clare: [00:09:56] It's so fast. 
Have you 
Tanya: [00:09:57] noticed how you've slowed down since we've talked? One of the things I was thinking as I walked in here is I'm going to talk more slowly than I normally do, because I want to bring Claire down. Yeah. But you're moving so fast in quite an anxious way that it's impossible, really for you to centre yourself enough to go.
Yeah, let me just really think about this often mental health issues can come out of significant life events or things that have happened to us that have just totally sort of wobbled us. My instinct is there's a story there. Is there a story? 
Clare: [00:10:38] Yeah, the main thing for me was when I was 10. So up until that age, very nice childhood, like very kind of.
spoilt maybe but not in a kind of awful way. 
Tanya: [00:10:49] So privileged, comfortable. Yeah. Privileged way. Tell me about your family. Mom, dad, 
Clare: [00:10:54] mom, dad. Well, mom used to be my mom, dad and my twin brother. And then when it got to 10, just one morning and I was in bed and like, there's a massive loud knock at the door, but like someone's gonna
break the door down and kind of knock. And I was thinking. What is that? And my mom and dad answered and police like came barging in and arrested them both. 
Tanya: [00:11:15] In front of you and your brother?
Clare: [00:11:16] In front of me, my brother was still in bed. I wish I'd stayed in bed. Yeah. So that was tough, but I think 
Tanya: [00:11:22] tough. That must have been terrifying.
Clare: [00:11:24] It was terrifying. 
Tanya: [00:11:25] Is there a lot of noise? Were your parents very distressed?
Clare: [00:11:28] So then it kind of calmed down a little bit. But then obviously there's still like three or four policemen in our house and loads of police vans outside. Um, 
Tanya: [00:11:35] also everybody saw the neighbours, so that's very humiliating as well.
Isn't it? 
Clare: [00:11:40] Yeah. and it's a very small street it's like a little cul-de-sac. So it's kind of one of those where everyone knows each other's business. Anyway, I remember even at that age kind of going through it and thinking something's obviously gone on. I'm like you have just had that happen for no reason, but then. He can't... what's he done?
Like he can't have done anything 
Tanya: [00:11:55] and you're tearing up now. Yeah. Just let's just pause a second. Why are you scared of feeling sad now, because when I hear you tell me that I imagine a little girl in her night, dress fast, asleep, quite calm and happy. Suddenly there's this loud crash. All these big adults come running in loads of noise.
And your little heart must've been racing desperately trying to work it out in your head, racing, racing, racing. When you're saying to me, just tell me my diagnosis. I need to know am I, this I'm like that with that? I feel like you're back to that 10 year old brain again, going what's going on? Is it this, is it that, is it this?
Oh, dad's probably, it's no something that he hasn't done anything wrong. 
Clare: [00:12:37] Yeah. So yeah. 
Tanya: [00:12:38] How sad I feel like I want to go in. Sit next to her on the stairs and put my arm around her and give her a cuddle. Cause she must've been terrified. 
Clare: [00:12:46] Yeah me too I think it was just, it's like a soap opera, but like, I think I probably hadn't even seen coronation street at that age.
And it was like, you just don't think that stuff happens, but it obviously does to you. It's like, no, like it can't like I've had this life for 10 years. That's been very like nice. 
Tanya: [00:13:02] And, and then a big bomb goes off. 
Clare: [00:13:04] Yeah. Especially when you've not been bought up in a family in a way where there's been. You know, people go to prison.
Like it's not a usual thing. It's not, 
Tanya: [00:13:12] is that what happened? 
Clare: [00:13:13] Yeah, mom sat 
Tanya: [00:13:13] us 
Clare: [00:13:13] down. And my mom's mom was there. Um, and sister was close to them and told us it was like, yeah, he's stole all this money from a company that he worked out over, like kind of a ten-year period. Yeah. 
Was it 
Tanya: [00:13:26] a lot of money?
 A lot of 
Clare: [00:13:28] money. I think it's 800 grand or 850 grand or a million big, yeah, big fraud.
That's when the person you've known for 10 years, like he's not that person that day has changed at all. It was kind of like 10 years of something 
Tanya: [00:13:43] and you're properly tearing up now. Aren't you
Yeah it's sad.
 Tell me about 
that sadness because you lost your father. Also, you suddenly realize he wasn't who you thought he was.
Clare: [00:13:54] I'd look at the photo, like photos of us from them previous 10 years and just be like, he was lying. He wasn't him in that, like he's smiling in that picture but behind that is this other life. And if surely was horrible to, for him to even live in, like, I can't even imagine that obviously it was his bad decision, but having to kind of carry that round and then ever since as well, he's kind of always been like, I did it for you guys because then we could have a better lifestyle and we did have a nice lifestyle, so then i've been pinned with a blame of it, I suppose, a little bit, which is kind of like, Oh, he's not done it intentionally.
Cause he's trying to say, Oh, I did it for you. And probably trying to make it. Better, but then obviously, then that becomes my problem. It's sad because it felt like he died. That's kind of the way to describe it, even though he's he's alive and the relationship, you had just. Died. And it's just not really one that I would have expected to die at that age because it's like, we were so close for them 10 years and I was kind of a typical like daddy's girl sort of thing.
And my brother was more, um, a mummys boy so I think that's kind of tough. 
Tanya: [00:14:57] It's extremely sad, but death is an interesting way of describing it. I think you're really describing it well, Literally that day, it was like a massive bereavement, a bereavement of your life. As you knew it, your dad, as you knew him, no.
Just that sense, your reputation as a family in the, in the community, amongst your friends, 
Clare: [00:15:26] you know, you seen pictures of him in the paper and then your street is on the paper like your address and descriptions of your house and it's like, it's just crazy. He's kind of gone  off the scene. And so then it's just my mum left, which obviously she's amazing, but we've never had had that relationship either.
So then I've kind of been left with no parent, I suppose, to like have them conversations with about my, where I'm at. If that makes sense. Yeah I find that tough I think yeah. 
Tanya: [00:15:55] You feel on your own. Yeah. And you're fast, fast, fast, and you're looking, looking, what's my diagnosis. What's my diagnosis. Because I think if you slow down, like you are now so painful, isn't it, 
Clare: [00:16:07] you know, I've already had gotten depressed as it is.
I don't want it to drive me into a deeper hole..
 what if the 
Tanya: [00:16:13] depression is actually. Because you're not really going there. And you talked to Claud a bit. Didn't you, you said about masking and you've just described someone else in your family who masked and you use the phrase just now, when you were describing your father and the whole family set up before that day, when the police came barreling through the door as a false reality.
Clare: [00:16:42] Hmm, that's a good point. 
Tanya: [00:16:43] It's a real parallel. There is. Sorry. 
Clare: [00:16:46] I've never thought about it like that. It's really spot on. I think I've got a lot of my Dad in me, which kind of scares me, 
Tanya: [00:16:54] i think it does
Clare: [00:16:54] honestly, because it's like, What does that you feel like, where does that leave me? Like, and even though he's got some really great traits, but then at the same time, he's kind of quite compulsive and has like gambling addiction and things I have, I've got quite an addictive personality.
I feel like that's probably one of them, which I've not thought about masking 
Tanya: [00:17:12] where you're similar to your dad is you mask. Yeah. It is a false reality. And you struggle to really be able to be comfortable with who you are. Yeah. Hence looking for. Uh, diagnosis. 
Clare: [00:17:26] Um, but I've tried to, I've had to get a little bit better, I think at being kind of more authentic as such, because being immensely unwell, I couldn't even have.
Hide it like if I could, and I've probably found that toughen itself, 
Tanya: [00:17:38] when couldn't you hide it, what happened? 
Clare: [00:17:40] I've been at points suicidal. It's not, it's never been like, I want to die. It's been more just, I just can't live like that anymore. And that's why I kind of get sad for him. Cause I'm like, how does he live in that reality still?
Like, he's still kind of. False. I feel like she's never really got help for it, or he's not really, he's always kind of deflected. I think I feel bad for him, which I think most people don't like, they're just so over it. And like my brother, he's just kind of like, well, you know, forget about him. Like, it's fine.
But I can't because I do feel like a responsibility, but then he's let me down a lot as well. So it's kind of like after that day he's lived like 10 minutes away on the train, him being so close. Why is it not gone back to how we were? 
Tanya: [00:18:25] Do you think for him it could be shame 
Clare: [00:18:27] maybe. I mean, he must know that we did was wrong, but it doesn't always seem to, he's never really apologized for it.
Tanya: [00:18:33] You can't really apologize for something, if you don't take responsibility for it, can you? 
Clare: [00:18:36] That's true. 
Tanya: [00:18:38] But I feel like you miss him. I think you miss the, you know, from birth to 10 relationship for love the feeling, has he reached out to you? 
Clare: [00:18:49] We'll go through phases where we'll have a relationship again for a year and then he'll do something else.
And it all goes back to the beginning.
I totally 
Tanya: [00:18:57] understand why you're so confused. Yeah. The reality isn't this diagnosis X or diagnosis. Y the reality is. How do I release myself from the grip of anxiety and depression by being authentic? 
Clare: [00:19:13] Yeah. It saddens me cause I'm like, how have I turned out like him like that, but like, I suppose about realizing it now.
Tanya: [00:19:20] Yeah. Perhaps you needed to have, you had to mask it for a while because it's the only way to get through. Plus it sounds to me like. All your role models around you have been doing quite a lot of masking. So yeah. What were you supposed to do? I mean, we can only do what we've been shown. It's true. But if you, at 22 can take this conversation and empower yourself to let go of the mental health preoccupation from the diagnosis point of view and just.
Be brave enough to look at that pain and that suffering and that loss and let the depression lift because you're allowing yourself to see clearly to find ways to manage your anxiety. And I'll talk about that with you later, you will have done at 22 what most people don't do in a lifetime. I think we need to do two things.
Now. I want you to write down in the break, your authentic narrative. Okay. You could write it as a letter to that little girl on the stairs, or you could write it to your dad, or you could write it to your mum. It isn't a letter you're necessarily gonna send to anybody, but first of all, decide who am I writing this to?
And then I want you to summarize where we're at and then let me hear. That part of you after the break? Yeah. Do you look, are you scared? 
Clare: [00:20:44] Yeah, I am scared. 
Tanya: [00:20:46] Don't do it, darling. 
Clare: [00:20:47] No, no, we'll do it. Like I know it's some that it just needs to be done. 
What are you afraid of? 
I don't know. 
Tanya: [00:20:53] No one breaks on my watch. In other words I will look after you.
Clare: [00:20:57] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:20:58] We speak truth. We empower ourselves because that this is who you are. You are a survivor. You are not a victim. You are a survivor. Let's focus. I know you did. That's what I want us to shift and 
yeah, 
Clare: [00:21:13] I'm happy. I'll do it. 
Tanya: [00:21:14] Are you sure? All right.
Claudia: [00:21:30] While you were talking to her. I did go on Clare's Instagram. She absolutely shares how she's feeling. She writes the story of her depression really from when it first struck. And these are the signs of depression. And these are the photographs I was taking of myself with depression. 
Tanya: [00:21:48] What do you mean photograph?
Claudia: [00:21:49] She took photographs of herself, tearful, very tearful. And she was, I, I send these to my friends. She was just obviously terribly low. 
Tanya: [00:21:58] Oh, I see. Right. 
Claudia: [00:21:59] Is that helpful? It's. 
Tanya: [00:22:02] Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I think on one hand it's vital. I think, you know, it allows us to de-stigmatize the whole mental health agenda, 
Claudia: [00:22:12] of course.
And it means that people who are going through something, they won't feel alone. Exactly. They'll go, Oh, this is happening to somebody else. I'm not abnormal. It's an illness. I will seek help, hopefully 
Tanya: [00:22:23] a hundred percent. So I really respect people who are really. You know, open about that, but I think there's, there is a line there, which is also how far you take it and how prevalent it becomes in terms of your major communications to the outside world, which social media is, you know, you're giving the world a window onto you and your life in terms of whether it then becomes sort of.
Significantly part of your identity. And I, and I, it's interesting, actually, that you did look at Clare's Instagram because it sort of sits. Alongside what I was saying to her in this room. Were you looking when I was talking to her about identity then? Is that why you looked? 
Yes, but 
Claudia: [00:23:07] I think it was also, I think it was, you were saying, just looking for a label, like don't be defined by it.
And she also said to you, that's how her father found out. She wasn't feeling very well. 
Tanya: [00:23:17] It's also a way you communicate to people that you want to know, but you don't know how to tell them. Yes. So that then. Links into the other bit of what she and I were talking about is this false reality that existed before the age of 10, it kind of still exists because nothing's really been talked about, 
Claudia: [00:23:36] I found it incredibly moving when you said, well, that's just a 10 year old little girl and you're sitting on the stairs and you're seeing your dad, as Sylvia Plath would say your bag of God.
You know, your daddy's girl at the age of 10. Being taken away by policemen. I mean, that's incredibly stressful and I feel heartbroken for her because she has a shared experience with her twin and her mum. They haven't really spoken about it. And the only thing I think, and I might've got this wrong, that her dad said to her was I did it all for you.
So says you must be all alone, like a little balloon just off by herself. 
Tanya: [00:24:15] That's quite powerful way of saying it a little balloon. Is that how you saw it when you heard her talk? 
Claudia: [00:24:20] That's how I felt. Cause she's, I know she's a young woman, but to me we've got big children now. She feels also very young to me.
Tanya: [00:24:27] There is something about Claire that brings out, uh, quite a maternal feeling. Yeah. She's kind of still stuck. Yeah. That 10 year old girl, isn't she crying? Bewildered confused. 
 bereaved. 
Yeah, 
Claudia: [00:24:42] as usual. You're amazing. I'm going to go and get her
while we
Tanya: [00:24:52] were talking. Claud had look at your Instagram, you do put quite a lot about mental health on there, there you, but you also sometimes post with yourself crying and stuff like that. So you've done. Yeah. Do you think maybe at some level, it's a way for you to get. The people closest to you to really understand how affected you are, because you're not able to tell them.
Clare: [00:25:12] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:25:13] But it's interesting, isn't it? Because it's an inauthentic authentic way of communicating. And I say in authentic, not because I think you're making it up because you're clearly not, but actually. It's not direct communication. Yeah. It just highlights the lack of authenticity within the family, as well as your authenticity.
The fact that this extraordinary event happened sort of 11, 12 years ago, and your legacy has been anxiety and more recently quite significant periods of depression, which have led you to suicidal thinking. And it's never been talked about. 
Clare: [00:25:52] Yeah. More conversations needs to be hard, which I think I've tried to do in my life.
Kind of little 
Tanya: [00:26:01] makes you anxious. You've just taken a breath and you're tearing up arn't you. Yeah. But there was a second point to the Instagram. Do you remember the other thing we were talking about before? And I was saying, look, I don't want you to identify yourself solely in terms of your mental health struggles.
And that sounds like I'm saying yeah. Ignore it. And I'm not because obviously I'm a mental health practitioner and I'm all for conversation and openness and de-stigmatization, and that's why Claud and I are doing this podcast because this stuff needs to be talked about. But it's me suggesting that maybe what you're portraying about yourself, it's too skewed in a direction that stops you, focusing on the healthy parts of yourself.
Yeah. We have to be careful that it doesn't become a self fulfilling prophecy that we then live that identity because then you'll never stop being depressed or experiencing depression because it's how you've decided you are as a, as a person. And I suppose I'm saying to you, why don't we just look at who you are?
Yeah. So that's the letter. Yeah. So how did you do writing that? 
Clare: [00:27:06] Weirdly? I was kind of thinking in my head, I was like, do I do it to like myself? But I did to my brother. I kind of strangely and 
Tanya: [00:27:12] your twin brother. 
Clare: [00:27:13] Yeah. I think it's because we've never had an actual. Conversation, even in like a light-hearted way or whatever, kind of way about what happened that day or that time 
Tanya: [00:27:24] your brother, you said to me earlier has just completely rejected your father cut him out and said, you know, he's an idiot, whatever.
Yeah. Don't like him. So he's cut off from his. The reality of how he feels in that way. You've done it slightly differently through depression and, you know, and those things, that's how you've kind of avoided the actual feelings and the actual experience. So it's, it's interesting that the twins are doing it the same thing, but in different ways.
Yeah, I kind 
Clare: [00:27:55] of wish I took his way, but obviously
Tanya: [00:27:58] no that's going to bite him. Yeah, one day, because
 which worries me a little but
 I wonder whether it's going to be quite difficult for him moving forward. If not now, when perhaps he becomes a father. Yeah. So therefore this letter, which I'm not saying necessarily you would send to him, but you would perhaps use as part of a conversation for him.
This could also not just be the moment you empower yourself, but you begin to enable him to empower himself. Yeah. And I would suggest that's much more powerful than posting a photo of yourself crying. Yeah. So let's hear the letter then. 
Okay. 
Clare: [00:28:34] I know we've never properly spoke about what happened with dad
and I know it was 10 years ago now, so I do feel ridiculous and embarrassed that this is still consuming my life so much. I know you didn't. Visually see mom and dad getting arrested, but it will have been just as traumatic. I think that was the worst visual image I've ever had. I remember when mom and grandma.
Um, told us, and I can't remember what you did, but I just run without thoughts, memory, and face plant in the bed. And I've never hysterically cried so much in my life. I remember even ripping dad off one of the photos we had of all of us in Majorca. It made me question every one of the family, to be honest, apart from you and whether anyone else knew anything that was going on.
I don't think you'll have even noticed, but in the last 10 years, I've become similar to Dad in that way. Living a lie, almost I've become so consumed in being overly anxious and putting the chatty can't be phased front on that. I've lost myself. I've lost that bubbly, smiley, stubborn kid that I always was inside.
I felt like shit very lost unloved by dad because our relationship has never gone back to the way it was, which I'd hoped for. And it obviously. In the last year, feelings of helplessness have exacerbated with me having depression and anxiety issues, because considering we are twins. And you mean the world's me?
I don't know why we never had an honest conversation. The guilt I feel for having had suicidal thoughts in the last year and then
Tanya: [00:29:55] finish it off now. How do you want to end it? 
Clare: [00:29:57] Can we just speak more and have like honest conversation and go back to that? And so if me get an idea of where he was at and where I'm at and move forward, really?
Tanya: [00:30:08] Why are you tearing up when you're saying all this? 
Clare: [00:30:11] I don't know. I think it's just because we haven't and I'm like, it's so frustrating because
, but which 
Tanya: [00:30:16] part of you are you contacting now 
Clare: [00:30:19] the younger me cause it's like we should have gone about it differently, then it shouldn't have taken 12 years now to get to this 
and who's the one that's 
Tanya: [00:30:29] going to make that happen to 
Clare: [00:30:30] me.
Tanya: [00:30:31] And what does that make you. No. Think about what I'm asking 
Clare: [00:30:37] honest, authentic for once 
Tanya: [00:30:39] and extraordinary. Um, you're completely calm aren't you? 
Clare: [00:30:44] More so, yeah, 
Tanya: [00:30:45] I really don't think you need to look anywhere else to try and work out who you are. Yeah. This is who you are and for what it's worth. I think it's awesome.
Now I think one thing. You've learned today and you've you, you actually articulated it really well in the letter is this hyper anxious part of yourself and then crash into depression. Let's just look at very quickly ways in which you can manage that part of yourself, because obviously these are ways that you've coped over the years.
So they're not just going to change because you've had this moment of kind of understanding with me. It might be good to look at lifestyle. My gut instinct is your sleep can be a bit all over the place. Am I right? 
Clare: [00:31:32] Yeah. Yeah. It's not great. It's really not great. 
Tanya: [00:31:36] if i was 
your therapist. 
We'd, that's where I'd start with you.
Um, I think you need to obviously go out and have, well, as much as anyone can, but you know, do, do do the uni stuff and everything, but I would create an amazing sleep routine. You could get a little sleep app on your phone. So you have it by your bed. It can tell you, how well you've slept every night 
Clare: [00:31:57] I could do this.
I feel like i only get like five, six hours, which I mean, 
Tanya: [00:32:00] no wonder you're, I'm flipping speeding out then because you're living on adrenaline and that's no good for anyone's mental health. So number one, sleep number two, exercise. And I'm not talking about going to the gym or anything like that. Next level.
Some people hate that. Really good walks. Yeah. Really try at least three times a week to make it fast paced, get the heart rate up. All of that really helpful. Get lots of nice fresh air in and out of your lungs and all that. Yeah. Listen to a podcast. There's some amazing mindfulness stuff. Audio, you can get, listen to stuff.
That's going to teach you to just clear your brain out. We've all got to not think sometimes that was the first bit I wanted to cover off. The second bit was something about your dad. It feels to me that there's some unfinished business for, for you. Yeah. And it's definitely a conversation that we agree has to happen across the family.
It sounds to me, and I think it's the right decision that you're going to start with your twin brother. Yeah. Maybe you then, and maybe you and him and mum might say, can we just go for a walk and we want to talk some stuff through or whatever. I think you'll see, you're going to need to be much clearer and stronger in yourself to be able to do that.
So I think starting with your brother and your mom, you've got a really good counselor haven't used that they can support, they can support you with that. There are some charities that support families of prisoners or ex prisoners. In acknowledgement of the fact that going to prison and coming out of prison can have a significant impact, not just on the person who's been in prison, but also on their families, obviously.
Clare: [00:33:39] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:33:40] I would, first of all, contact these charities and see what they advise. 
Clare: [00:33:43] Yeah. That's really interesting. I haven't thought about that 
Tanya: [00:33:45] because it might be helpful for you. Yeah. Just, and that might be quite empowering. And you may actually end up in a support group for children of prisoners. I mean, but I feel like you need to place that somewhere.
And if in the end it isn't something that your father is able to do with you. I still feel it's a narrative that you need to find some closure on. What was real is that you loved your dad and your dad loved you. And. You have to hold onto that because you couldn't have had that bond and connection with him unless it was authentic.
Children can sniff out in authenticity. So he did love you. Yeah. He made a catastrophic mistake in his life, but. He did love you. You need to hold onto that. 
Clare: [00:34:28] Definitely. Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:34:29] And maybe there is that part of him that you, and he can reconnect on, but I feel like you just have to work towards that. 
Clare: [00:34:37] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:34:38] Next it then sounds like you're going to talk to your brother and that might take a few goes.
He might initially he hasn't had this experience with me. He might initially go forget it. Forget it. It's in the past. So you just take your time. Maybe you send a version of that letter whatever. I think at that point, then when you really understand and you feel like you've had some of those conversations with others, but mostly just the more you say it, the more you'll understand it.
That's the point. Maybe you could reach out to your dad. 
Clare: [00:35:04] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:35:04] Perhaps via one of these charities. 
Clare: [00:35:06] Yeah, that'd be amazing. 
Tanya: [00:35:08] So my final question to you is in terms of how you define yourself, both in the real world and in the social media platform arena. What's going to be different when you leave me and Claud today.
Clare: [00:35:24] I need to just be 
the real me. I also, I'm sure people aren't going to like hate on it. And 
Tanya: [00:35:30] I wonder whether your friends are going to be like, Oh hallelujah. Welcome back. Hallelujah. Just be clear that as we live an authentic life, obviously without the distraction of the kind of issues around anxiety, depression, we're actually then really feeling what we're feeling.
Sadness and pain. Isn't the same as depression. Fear. Isn't the same as having an anxiety disorder be prepared to have those feelings sometimes. Yeah. But don't automatically assume that you're going back into a depression or an anxiety accept that those are normal feelings and the, you can sit with them, reach out to people for support.
Move through and tomorrow's another day. 
Clare: [00:36:18] Yeah, you're right. You are right. 
Tanya: [00:36:21] You have such wisdom. I am so impressed by you. And I don't say that often. 
Clare: [00:36:29] Yeah. It's kind of weird hearing someone say, actually, I'm not really used to that. No. 
Tanya: [00:36:33] Start telling yourself you are not the person you keep telling yourself in the world.
You are, you are an incredibly resilient, insightful young woman. Be that person and then look at what really needs to be processed. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming in.
Clare: [00:36:52] You're the best thank you! 
Claudia: [00:37:00] I want to 
talk to you about sleep.
Clare: [00:37:01] Yeah. Any tips, you have!
. I find the 
Claudia: [00:37:04] pressure of you've got to get eight hours is just too much. Yeah. So then what I want you to do at what, what are your hours at university? 
Clare: [00:37:12] Um, so like nine till five, as in like. You now is, do you mean like in the day? Yeah. Nine until five to be there nine til five.
Claudia: [00:37:19] Yeah. That's annoying. Fine. What I want you to do then when you come back at five o'clock is I want you not to put pajamas on and not get under the covers, but I want you to lie down in your bed. 
Clare: [00:37:29] Interesting. 
Claudia: [00:37:30] For at least 45 minutes, you can't go longer because then, I mean, that's just risky, but I need you.
What I was taught you get it when you can get it. You're not in it the weekend. Oh, I'm going to give you a schedule. If I had a laminating machine I would be so happy. So you probably wake up at the same time. Yeah. The weekend. Cause even though you will go, you know, my 17 year old got hungry because you get into such a rhythm.
I'm going to need you to have a proper nap. So you can wake up at eight, definitely reach out to the people that you just love being with. You don't have to be up with, but you can also be down with you can be everything. You can just be Clare, but then if you arrange to meet for lunch arrange to meet at two and get into bed at 12.
And you go and you properly go to sleep. How long are we talking? Sleep? As long as you can at 12, it's not as risky. It's not the bungee jump of nuts at five 30, and then you'll build up all that lovely sleep. So if on Tuesday you're out, you're drinking. You're having a laugh, not past 10, obviously at the moment.
No, but you're, you know, you're with friends. If you do get five hours, that's all right, because guess what? You got an extra four. It, the weekend randomly. Even if you lie there, no phone and listen to lovely music. If you want close your eyes, I promise you you'll fall asleep because your body needs it.
Clare: [00:38:44] Yeah, that's true. 
Claudia: [00:38:45] No. So just so you know, this is for everyone listening. When you wake up for a nap, you could eat an elephant. So don't nap. Without food in the house. 
Clare: [00:38:54] Thanks Claud. That's  actually so good. I'm going to do that. And yeah, I'll let you know how the whole sleep situation goes in and everything.
They just control my anxiety a lot more and yeah. 
Claudia: [00:39:02] You know what, you'll be. You're going to just chat to your brother. Yeah. And you can chat to your mom. 
It will be a great start
. So it might be slow, but just, yeah. Let it percolate up, but it just be a little bit there down the conversation. 
Clare: [00:39:13] It doesn't need to be this 
Claudia: [00:39:13] massive Rush and
it never needs to be huge. I often find if I want to say something massive, I say it a bit quietly and just as an aside. 
Clare: [00:39:21] Yeah. It all just trickles in over time. And, um, that seems everyone responds to things differently. Don't they? And I might be there w thinking that we can just have this huge conversation and it's not
Claudia: [00:39:33] They might feel like they might, I think your mum might feel guilty. Here's my baby. And she's been carrying this around and I thought the best thing was not to talk about it, so it can just be completely small. I did it this morning. Can you pass me?  the marmite, oh I've ordered a dog. That's how it works. That's how it works.
Yeah, because you're sending it to yours. 
Clare: [00:39:54] Oh, you actually, can't a lot of cat and a dog like done, 
done deal. You're amazing. Thank you so much.
Claudia: [00:40:06] When Claire first arrived. And I said, why are you here? She wanted to know what she had 
There 
Tanya: [00:40:12] was something about that need to self-define around the conditions that she struggles with that inadvertently made them more entrenched. 
Claudia: [00:40:26] Yes. What was so interesting as she said, there were so many things, one that you said is that, is this how you're telling your family?
And she immediately went, yep. That's what I'm telling them through, through social media, because I can't pick up the phone and go, Oh, can we all just acknowledge what we all went through? Cause it was traumatic. 
Tanya: [00:40:44] Anybody remember that day? Yeah, exactly. 
Claudia: [00:40:46] Um, I feel bad that was sort of snooping, but that is a public account.
And as you say will be helpful to many, she said, but she has another account where she's her upbeat self and Hey, let's do this. And what was her interesting having spoken to you? She realized that she couldn't, she either had to be one or the other, or she had felt like that. And I wanted to say, but that's not how.
Real life is 
Tanya: [00:41:10] absolutely. And I guess we have to remember, she's just turned 22, 
she's a baby. 
Yeah. So, you know, the brain, the prefrontal cortex doesn't stop developing until 24. So, you know, she's got this journey ahead, but it is, isn't it it's supposed to do as a task in life. Isn't it? When you kind of reach early adult hood is you, you want to try and.
Kind of find your authentic self and acknowledge all these different bits of you, but they all kind of live and work together rather than separating them out, which is, I suppose, what you saw your sleep intervention was very good. 
Claudia: [00:41:39] So, you know what, if you grab six hours at night, You have an hour in the day randomly.
And if you have two hours randomly, 
Tanya: [00:41:48] you love it. Don't you? 
Claudia: [00:41:49] It's my happy place. 
Tanya: [00:41:50] Well, I know because I know when you don't pick up your phone to me, I know where you are 
Claudia: [00:41:54] having a nap. 
Tanya: [00:41:54] I know you're having a nap. 
Claudia: [00:41:56] If I'm tired the smallest thing can feel monumental. 
Tanya: [00:41:59] I agree. 
Claudia: [00:42:00] But if I wake up from a nap, Boom. 
Tanya: [00:42:02] Hasn't all 
that nap chat made 
you feel quite sleepy.
Now, 
Claudia: [00:42:05] can we snuggle up? 
Tanya: [00:42:06] You also said about food. You're absolutely right. Could you just kind of prepare something before we go and nap so we can eat after? 
Claudia: [00:42:13] Cause it's vital. 
Tanya: [00:42:13] What would you make? 
Claudia: [00:42:15] Hmm, jacket potato. 
Tanya: [00:42:16] Perfect. Let's go 
Claudia: [00:42:17] put one in the oven. I'm going to throw this word out. Hummus. 
Tanya: [00:42:20] Oh, I love you Claudia Winkleman let's go. 
Claudia: [00:42:25] And just a gentle nudge to say, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, you can rate and comment. And this is very important. Um, if you don't mind me saying, so please tell all your friends, if you enjoyed it and share this, if you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this episode, please see our program notes for information about further support and advice.
And if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of how did we get here, please email briefly describing your issue to how@somethinelse.com that's  how@somethinelse.com without the G next time we meet Sophie.
 In general, 
Sophie: [00:43:07] the amount of effort you put in does equal results, but there is no amount of.
Trying trying not, I can put into this, 
Claudia: [00:43:20] This podcast was made by the team at Somethin Else. The sound and mix engineer is Josh Gibbs. The Assistant Producer is Grace Laiker. The Producer is Selina Ream and the Executive Producer is Chris Skinner, with additional production from Steve Ackerman.
Thank you so much for listening.