Claudia: [00:00:00] Please note this episode contains some emotional content, adult issues and strong language, which may not be suitable for all listeners. 
Sophie: [00:00:15] In general, the amount of effort you put in does equal results. But, there is no amount of... 
Tanya: [00:00:27] Trying.
Sophie: [00:00:27] Trying that I can put into this. 
Claudia: [00:00:31] Welcome to How Did We Get Here?, I'm Claudia Winkleman, here with my friend clinical psychologist, Professor Tanya, Byron.
This is the place where we address some of the challenges people face in their daily lives, either personally or with their families. Tanya talks to people in one-to-one sessions, whilst I'm listening in from another room. In the break and at the end, I ask Tan a bit about her process and we explore the issues that are raised.
Sophie and her husband had been trying to conceive for two years. [00:01:00] And then, in May of last year, she was diagnosed with Premature Ovarian Failure. They have since had two rounds of IVF and are now looking to move forward, using donor eggs. Sophie said the diagnosis rocked her world and is finding it hard to come to terms with what that means, and what the future holds. 
Sophie: [00:01:17] Within days of that, three pregnancy announcements, two of my cousins and my sister. 
Claudia: [00:01:25] Oh, crikey. What you're about to hear are the key parts of a one-time, unscripted session with a real person. We follow up with our guests after the recording, passing on links and contacts, some of which you will find in the program notes of this episode.
Let's go and meet Sophie. 
Thank you so much for coming in.
Sophie: [00:01:46] That's okay. 
Claudia: [00:01:47] Why have you come? 
Sophie: [00:01:48] My way, husband and I have been trying to have children for a few years. And 18 months ago, I was diagnosed with Premature Ovarian [00:02:00] Insufficiency. 
Claudia: [00:02:01] Goodness. 
What does that mean? 
Sophie: [00:02:02] It basically means that, um, I'm on the verge of going into menopause. Um. 
Claudia: [00:02:09] How old are you? 
Sophie: [00:02:10] So, I was 29 at the time that I was given the diagnosis. Yeah. Um, yeah, so basically was told in this appointment that my Ovarian Reserve was similar to somebody like, age 45. And that if we wanted to have any chance of being able to have genetic children, that we should pursue IVF straight away. But, that we wouldn't be eligible for any funding for, for that as well. Um. 
Claudia: [00:02:38] This must've been a terrible shock. 
Sophie: [00:02:40] Yeah, up to that point, obviously, other than just having not fallen pregnant, all of the tests that we'd had had come back normal. And so, yeah, it was a huge shock and then, since then, we've sort of been doing fertility treatment and we sort of exhausted all of our options with being able to have a genetic child.
So [00:03:00] we've now moved on to treatment with donor eggs. 
Claudia: [00:03:05] Okay. And how do you feel about that? 
Sophie: [00:03:07] I still have moments where, I like step back from everything and just think like, "how is this my life?". Like how, I just... Feel like I haven't had an opportunity to come up for air. 
Claudia: [00:03:18] Yeah. 
Sophie: [00:03:18] It's been relentless. 
Claudia: [00:03:20] It feels like lightning speed. And also, I know people who've had IVF and you're also full of hormones. I mean, I don't know about you, but they didn't feel totally regulated, if that makes any sense or... 
Sophie: [00:03:32] Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:03:33] It's a lot. 
Sophie: [00:03:34] Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:03:34] How are you and your husband dealing with it? 
Sophie: [00:03:37] We're going to be in a position, where we have children that are not genetically related to me, but they are to him. So, that's something to kind of try to make sense of. A lot of relationships don't survive this, the statistics around like separations from people who've gone through fertility treatments is huge. So, we try our best to kind of try and [00:04:00] look after each other. But it's a stress, a massive strain financially, emotionally... 
Claudia: [00:04:05] Everything.
Sophie: [00:04:05] It's been huge. 
Claudia: [00:04:06] Tell me about family and friends. Do they know, are they aware? Are you leaning on people? 
Sophie: [00:04:12] So, my mum and my siblings, my brother and my sister and my dad know about the situation. But, the only person that I really talked to directly about it is my mum. I can talk to my mum about the logistics of it and like what we're doing.
But as soon as it ventures into like how it's making me feel, I can't like... 
Claudia: [00:04:34] To carry you through, you need other people to look after you darling. Is my, is my sense. I'm sorry. Have you found the eggs that  you want.
Yeah. 
Sophie: [00:04:43] We're doing our treatment over in the Czech Republic? Yeah. We had our donor cycle back in July and we have got embryos in the freezer.
Claudia: [00:04:53] Congratulations.
Sophie: [00:04:54] Yeah. Since we've come back, we've tried to do two cycles, but they [00:05:00] keep getting canceled. I'm not responding to the medication and then they can't get my body ready to do a transfer basically. We're just trying different cocktails of medication, until something works. If we are successful at some point, and we get to the point where we stop fertility treatment, because we're pregnant.
I just think, am I going to fall apart? 
Claudia: [00:05:24] Yeah. 
Sophie: [00:05:24] Because I've not dealt. 
Claudia: [00:05:26] Yeah. 
Sophie: [00:05:27] With it, like as, as we've gone through this. 
Claudia: [00:05:30] Okay. So you need, you've come here for a good old process?
Sophie: [00:05:36] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:05:36] It feels like you've been firefighting, all the time. You're like a, a long distance runner. You know, the old hurdle gets thrown in. You have to kind of jump over it and fall over a bit, but you'll pick yourself up and you'll keep running. And, I think you must be utterly exhausted. 
Sophie: [00:05:56] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:05:58] Is it all that you [00:06:00] think about?
Sophie: [00:06:01] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:06:02] You're nodding.
Yeah. And I think that's also, it's exhausting that even when you're not involved in the practical stuff. Which as Claude said, and we have to say again, includes taking a cocktail of medications, which can have major impact on your mood anyway. One thing after another, when is it going to end? Yeah. 
Sophie: [00:06:27] And, I think like, my body has failed.
Tanya: [00:06:32] I'm curious about how deeply you are taking significant responsibility, in a really emotional way for this.
Sophie: [00:06:46] I do feel guilty, that it is, that it's me that is the thing preventing him from being able to have children. 
Tanya: [00:06:58] Are you someone who [00:07:00] will very quickly turn frustration about a situation onto yourself?
Sophie: [00:07:08] Yes, I'm a perfectionist and I am hard on myself. 
Tanya: [00:07:13] So, that's one hell of a personality trait to bring into a situation like this.
Sophie: [00:07:17] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:07:18] You're laughing. Tell me why you're laughing. 
Sophie: [00:07:20] I think in situations outside of this, in life, in general, the amount of effort you put in does equal results. But there is no amount of.
Tanya: [00:07:37] Trying.
Sophie: [00:07:37] Trying that I can put into this. 
Tanya: [00:07:40] Tell me about your perfectionism. 
Sophie: [00:07:42] I think I've always been, probably quite driven by like praise from other people. 
Tanya: [00:07:51] So external validation really kind of motivates and sustains you. How good are you at internal validation? 
Sophie: [00:07:59] Bad. 
[00:08:00] Tanya: [00:07:59] Yeah. Tell me about that. 
Sophie: [00:08:03] I think there's always a sense of, like, you could do more. 
Tanya: [00:08:06] In childhood, you were loved and valued by your parents and you felt good enough?
Sophie: [00:08:11] Not because anybody was telling me that. 
Tanya: [00:08:13] And do you see it in siblings or in your own parents, or do you see it in people that you're related to? Do you see that similar personality trait? 
Sophie: [00:08:21] We have a big family. Both my parents have got three siblings each and everyone's got children and there's lots of cousins and stuff.
And, I think there has always been a sense of not com... not competition, but like comparison between relatives from the point of, from the age ofm that people in the family started doing GCSE's. Like, it was probably one of us every year, doing them, for 10 years. Comparison of like, academic results, comparison of other achievements, like.... 
Tanya: [00:08:58] And who was doing the comparing, [00:09:00] your parents and their siblings?
They were all kind of going, "Oh, what did yours get mine? Got this", sort of thing. Oh, so that was actually happening? So, you got this sense with your parents, who I know love you deeply, that they were benchmarking you against the, the offspring of their siblings. 
Sophie: [00:09:18] It makes it sound worse than it is like, I wonder if like, I was just something in my personality made me particularly sensitive to that. 
Tanya: [00:09:32] Has your sister had kids? 
Sophie: [00:09:34] Four. 
Tanya: [00:09:35] Oh gosh. Wow. Who I'm sure you love and I'm sure... have any of your cousins had kids? 
Sophie: [00:09:43] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:09:45] Wow. That's another challenge. And I suspect it's hard for you to feel envy and frustration with the other people in your life who have children, because you love them and you love their [00:10:00] children.
So, that's a whole other complex web of emotion that you now are. 
Sophie: [00:10:05] So, we did the first cycle of IVF, which ended in a miscarriage. 
Tanya: [00:10:12] How many weeks? 
Sophie: [00:10:13] Six weeks. And then within days of that, three pregnancy announcements. Two of my cousins and my sister. 
Tanya: [00:10:23] Oh, crikey. So, you had to put on a smile, be a good sister, be a good cousin, but inside, you just perhaps even wanting to scream at them just to shut up and go away and leave you alone?
Sophie: [00:10:36] My way of dealing with it is just to like, isolate. 
Tanya: [00:10:42] So, life has become very much narrower, nothing really to punctuate the focus of conception is there? There's nothing to give you any respite. And, what do you think that's about, is that shame, is that embarrassment? Is that [00:11:00] despair? 
Sophie: [00:11:01] I think it's uncomfortable, because we're not like a family who talks about difficult, like things that are difficult and emotions.
Not because they don't care, we've never been in a position where we've had to have these kinds of conversations, or talk about how we're feeling. 
Tanya: [00:11:23] There will have been stuff. Every family has stuff. And was it when you were growing up? Is it much more that sort of task-focused family? You just kind of pick yourself up, you soldier on?
Sophie: [00:11:33] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:11:34] Right. 
Sophie: [00:11:35] I feel like I'm not equipped with the skills of like how to... 
Tanya: [00:11:45] Manage the emotional side, yeah. A significant part of managing it, is naming it. You've named it. Okay? So actually, I think you're a lot better at this than you think you are. The problem is, [00:12:00] you're looking at this in the same way as you look at everything else. Which has previously in your life, enabled you to be successful and has enabled you to quiet that inner voice that's going, "you're not good enough. Keep going. They got A's. You've got to get A's. She's had three kids. That's okay. Because you're going to have one soon." 
That little inner voice that we all have that insecurity, that inner critic. We've all got it. But your inner voice, now is screaming at you, because the counterbalance to that, your perfectionist, hardworking, task-focused, I-can-make-this-work part of your personality, it's just not enabling things to happen in the way you want them to happen at this moment in time. Can you see how I'm laying it out?
Sophie: [00:12:55] Yeah. Emotionally, like I'm not dealing with [00:13:00] that well, because that voice in my head that says work harder, is still there... 
Tanya: [00:13:06] And telling you you're failing. Oh sweet, now you're crying again. Had you ever seen it as this is you, this is what you're bringing to this experience? Which is a combination of hardworking resilience, task-focused just get on with it, the narrative of your family, how we've all achieved and done well. But, it's also a level of insecurity, which that's okay, because my insecurities have always been managed by the validation of others, and I can get that, because I can work hard and achieve and people say, "Well done, Sophie, you're really smart. You did really well." 
Sophie: [00:13:51] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:13:53] A problem is, now life has thrown you something where you're working your flipping socks off. I mean, you couldn't work harder, [00:14:00] but it's not giving you the result. 
Sophie: [00:14:04] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:14:05] So, there isn't any validation. So, therefore that inner voice now cannot be quietened by external validation and results. And it's absolutely decimating you.
Sophie: [00:14:22] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:14:28] As I think ahead, I think, right, okay, so there would be donor egg conception, which is what you're doing now, the next step after that would be surrogacy, the next step after that would be adoption. I suspect is that kind of the way you're looking at it? Persevere on...
Sophie: [00:14:50] Potentially, or just childlessness. 
Tanya: [00:14:56] Yeah. I don't think that's something you really want. Is it?
[00:15:00] Sophie: [00:15:02] No. 
Tanya: [00:15:03] So, it feels to me by hook or by crook, you will mother. Tracking back to, to, to what we're looking at now, being a mother, having children, moving forward in your life. It might also be worth looking at this perfectionist streak in you, because you probably, kind of want to be able to be a bit more carefree, with your kids.
Sophie: [00:15:27] Yeah. I wouldn't want that for them. 
Tanya: [00:15:30] So, then you need to change that now about yourself. 
Claudia: [00:15:35] It's me. I just want to pause a moment, because something just occurred to me. You talked about her being a perfectionist. How on earth did you get there? 
Tanya: [00:15:42] My heart goes out to her and women like her, who have to kind of go through that to, to, you know, to have a child.
I could just hear that this was something that sat at a very, very, very deep level in her. I could hear the failure, the sense of failure already. That [00:16:00] felt may bigger than what you would expect somebody in her situation to feel. I guess those are the clinical instincts you, you have when you listen carefully.
And, so you start to plant questions, you start to just look at certain things. And, I think by the time I said to her, it feels like a loving, but very task-focused family. I think at that point, I could see that this was a problem she was struggling with because her personality type is very, very inflexible when it comes to not achieving.
Claudia: [00:16:41] Okay. Let's go back to the chat.
Sophie: [00:16:43] My worry is like not dealing with this now. And, you know, we, we plan to tell our children about their [00:17:00] conception. So it's, you know, part of their identity from when they're really small and it's not something that they learn later on in life, and it's a huge shock and they've been lied to. 
So, I understand all of that, I've researched it. Um... 
Tanya: [00:17:15] I bet you have.
Sophie: [00:17:15] So.
Tanya: [00:17:17] And there's great places, aren't there? There's the Donor Conception Network, there are some amazing resources and books, as well. If you search, lovely books that you can have, to read to your donor egg conceived children and just really brilliant stuff. 
Sophie: [00:17:30] Yeah. My fear would be that eventually, talking about it with future children, is it going to bring up all of these same feelings?
Like how upset I am by it, would they perceive that as being, you know... 
Tanya: [00:17:46] A criticism of them. 
Sophie: [00:17:48] A reaction to the fact that we didn't have children in the way that we first imagined we would. 
Tanya: [00:17:54] I think your fear is that you will sometimes look at them and think they were not quite what you [00:18:00] wanted. I think that's your biggest fear intellectually, you know, you wouldn't. 
Sophie: [00:18:05] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:18:06] Emotionally, you worry, you might. 
Sophie: [00:18:10] Yeah. Even allowing myself to have that thought, it's like doing some disservice to... 
Tanya: [00:18:16] Your future child. Yeah. I understand that. I think, if I help you find the therapist to pick up where I leave off, my feedback to them would be, Sophie needs to grieve. I'm talking about for you to grieve and say goodbye to, how you thought you would have children. 
That's not doing a disservice to future children, if you were to sob and grieve and say, I am so desperately [00:19:00] sad that I am unable to conceive with my husband, a child that would be genetically a combination of both of us. That's not then somehow saying, so any other child is a, is a second, third, fourth best. That is you acknowledging, how you thought that was going to be, is not.
And at some point, find peace with that. It, this feels like a bereavement to me, Sophie. You need to have space to sit down and rant and be furious about this, and you need to give yourself permission. It makes you a brave woman, who wants to be as emotionally healthy as she can be for her children, when she receives them into her life.
Sophie: [00:19:59] Yeah. 
[00:20:00] Tanya: [00:20:00] I'd like to take a break, because I think you need a bit of a breather. So, we're talking about grief and we're talking about, that's the focus for ongoing support, for you. There's something else I'm going to talk to you about afterwards, but I'm going to plant it now. Because, I want you to think about it. Claude and I are going to make sure you leave here, with a plan to shift your social relationships.
Sophie: [00:20:28] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:20:29] You need to not think about this sometimes and, because you're not seeing anyone, you're thinking about this all the time. You are in a house of mourning, so point number one, I want you in the break to make a list of all the women, people, friends, groups that you've lost contact with, or you're not really contacting.
And, I want you to think actually, what could I do that could bring some joy back. Point number two, I would like you to think about, starting [00:21:00] a journal, that one day you will give to your child or children. 
Sophie: [00:21:06] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:21:08] And chapter one, could start in the break of you recording a podcast and beginning to look at things differently. And I'd be really curious to see what you will write at the beginning of the journal, that will be part of the narrative that you will give to your children, one day when they're old enough to understand it. So, that their mom tells them their story, with all the love that she has in her heart. What do you think about that?
Sophie: [00:21:46] Yeah, I think that would be good.
[00:22:00] Claudia: [00:22:03] Talk to me about, I found it fascinating, especially her reaction, because you described it so brilliantly when you said this is about grief. 
Tanya: [00:22:11] Yeah. She, I can't even tell you Claud. She sort of, just kind of relaxed. She needs to grieve. And say goodbye to the role of being mother that she expected, which was conception, pregnancy, birth.
That's what she's seen happening in her sister's family and her cousins in her, the world, right. She won't let herself grieve, because I think she feels guilty that if she acknowledges how disappointed she is that she can't do it that way, somehow she's kind of saying, these children that I will, I hope one day have, will never quite be good enough. 
Claudia: [00:22:55] Which of course is not true.
Tanya: [00:22:57] No, but she wasn't really, she was talking about [00:23:00] herself then. 
Claudia: [00:23:00] Yes. 
Tanya: [00:23:01] So, people often stop themselves grieving, because they feel too guilty to acknowledge the feelings that come with grief. 
Claudia: [00:23:08] Oh, is that true? That's what you were saying too fascinating. You can't come out of it unless, cause grief is anger, deep feeling of sadness, a feeling of "why me?", all of these things. And if you don't let yourself feel that, then you can't get through the the grief. is that what you're saying? 
Tanya: [00:23:25] Yeah. A hundred percent. She's stuck. She's stuck in the grief, and she's ashamed at what these feelings of grief bring up for her, because perfectionists...
Claudia: [00:23:35] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:23:35] Don't do that. Perfectionists just get on with the task in hand. 
Claudia: [00:23:38] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:23:38] And she's furious, with herself. 
Claudia: [00:23:41] You know, I listen, next door and I write copious amounts of notes that then, I can't read back because they got terrible handwriting, but I've written down in huge, bold anger. Because... 
Tanya: [00:23:50] I can see it from here. 
Claudia: [00:23:52] Because she must be.
Tanya: [00:23:54] Yeah. But who wouldn't be the...
Claudia: [00:23:56] I would be. 
Tanya: [00:23:56] Point is, she's feeling too guilty to allow herself to feel angry. 
[00:24:00] Claudia: [00:24:00] Right? 
Tanya: [00:24:00] It's so complicated. And I feel like her family, who are obviously a loving, nurturing family, don't think that's the language they speak as a family. And maybe she wants to protect them, she doesn't want them to know how angry and sad she is.
Claudia: [00:24:13] I think you used the word, which was brilliant. There was nothing to punctuate the need for conception, which I totally understand. She is a duo, right? She's fixated on this. I will get it done. You said, you've got to find some other stuff to punctuate. 
Tanya: [00:24:27] I kind of think, when you meet her at the end, if that's the bit she's still struggling with, you've got to, you got to Claude her. You've got to somehow, enable her to recognise how vital that is. 
Claudia: [00:24:40] Also, this process is long. 
Tanya: [00:24:42] It could take years. 
Claudia: [00:24:43] It could, it could absolutely take years and it's not, you and I both know people who have gone through something like this. Yeah. It's just a good idea. Just to take your, take your eye off it. Tell me about the journal, which I love. 
Tanya: [00:24:55] I asked her to write a journal that begins, "Hello you", which would be to [00:25:00] little person. However they arrive. And this journal is really saying, I'm going to tell you the story of how you came to be in this family. And it's a big story. So, we're going to snuggle down together under a blanket, but it's an important story and it's something I want to share with you. Claude, you've got tears in your eyes.
Claudia: [00:25:19] Whoever comes will be really lucky to have her as a mum. 
Tanya: [00:25:22] In the writing of it, I think it will enable her to frame this narrative differently, to see it as the important journey that had to be taken in order for, little you to be part of her life. And I, and I, it's the sort of connection, that I think will enable her to hold on to possibility in a way that I can see she's not at the moment.
Claudia: [00:25:47] Oh, that's excellent. Okay. I'm going to go and get her.
Tanya: [00:25:58] I said, "how are you?", And [00:26:00] you said "good". Tell me why you're good. 
Sophie: [00:26:03] I think it's helpful to have somebody say you need to like grieve what has happened. And, I think I've not been giving myself permission to do that. 
Tanya: [00:26:17] Absolutely right. Why do you think you haven't given yourself permission? 
Sophie: [00:26:20] To not be able to start a family in the way that we'd we thought we would, is it the same thing as sort of saying, like, I don't want to be on this path that we're on, which is not the case.
Tanya: [00:26:34] Guilt.
Sophie: [00:26:34] I know they're separate things. 
Tanya: [00:26:36] But, guilt stopped you acknowledging it, didn't it? Yeah. At the moment, it's not fine, because it's relentless and it's a chore and it's absolutely destroying you. And my worry would be by the time you did have a child, you'd be broken. So, in terms of the tasks I gave you, let's go with the, how not to be broken bit. 
Sophie: [00:26:59] Yeah.
[00:27:00] Tanya: [00:27:00] Which is the quick one, which is, you have got to reposition this in your life. It's become everything, it cannot be everything, you will break, my darling. You will absolutely break.
You need to give yourself permission, also to go and have a good laugh. You will not sustain yourself psychologically and emotionally, if you don't give yourself permission to not think about it sometimes. So, do you have any ideas. 
Sophie: [00:27:29] Have a drink, I think I can name two times in the last three years that I've had a drink. Because, one of the things with going through IVF, is like trying to do whatever you can to try and improve your chances. Say cutting out alcohol. 
Tanya: [00:27:46] Have a drink. But I think that actually means, just be amongst people who are drinking and if you have one great. But if you don't, you can still have a laugh. 
Sophie: [00:27:54] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:27:54] Okay. 
Sophie: [00:27:55] Yeah. I've said see friends.
Tanya: [00:27:57] Have you caught them out? 
[00:28:00] Sophie: [00:27:59] When I met my husband, I like relocated to live where he lived and then I think I've started a new job and I've definitely not let anybody in. 
Tanya: [00:28:10] So, you're saying, let friends back and let people in. 
Sophie: [00:28:15] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:28:16] Good plan, anymore? 
Sophie: [00:28:17] Taking time off work, that is not for fertility treatment. 
Tanya: [00:28:21] So you've not even had a holiday, or a break. 
Sophie: [00:28:23] No, not really. And then, I said have like, go away. 
Tanya: [00:28:27] Yes. Tick. Good. 
Sophie: [00:28:29] And laugh more. 
Tanya: [00:28:31] You need to laugh. You need to share, you need to feel the sun on your face. I have a feeling there's, just the only conversations you really mostly have with your family, and maybe even your husband is all about this.
I mean, it's just completely defining you, in the most unhappy way. 
Sophie: [00:28:49] Yeah. No, I can see that. 
Tanya: [00:28:53] So, then we talked about, starting the, starting the narrative. Do you want to read it? If it's personal, you [00:29:00] don't have to. It's entirely up to you. 
Sophie: [00:29:03] Yeah, no, I'm happy to read it. 
Tanya: [00:29:04] Okay. 
Sophie: [00:29:05] I've said, "We love you so much and we don't even know you yet. We're doing everything we can and trying so hard to bring you home, because we so badly want you to be a part of our family. We want you to know just how much you were always wanted and how grateful we are that you might read this one day and understand all that we went through so that we could be your mum and dad.
Tanya: [00:29:37] What does that feel like? Writing it, hearing yourself, say it. 
Sophie: [00:29:43] I think what I've been worried about is that, yeah, they might feel like they were not our first choice. But, I think reading this, that isn't how they would feel. 
Tanya: [00:29:55] And you would never make them feel that way. You just need some help to get to the [00:30:00] point where you can say goodbye to how, for you, it should have been. Where you can accept that you're not to blame, where you can allow yourself to not be perfect in the way you think you should be perfect. And, how you can let some sunshine back into your life, before this little person arrives. Then, you will be fine. 
Sophie: [00:30:32] Yeah. 
Tanya: [00:30:33] Sophie, I just want you to start living again. Because, when this child comes into your life, I don't want them to have a mother, who is so broken and exhausted, that she's forgotten how to find any joy apart from via her child. Because, that's one hell of a responsibility to put on a child, isn't it? I want them to have a mum who's funny and fun and can do crazy things with them and laugh. [00:31:00] And I absolutely believe you'll do this. Because, I think you've given yourself permission to be kind to yourself and to begin to realise that you are more than this body that has to conceive.
And you need to take care of all of you, in order to be able to manage ahead and one day welcome your child into your life. 
Sophie: [00:31:23] Yeah.
Tanya: [00:31:27] Thank you for sharing your story.
Claudia: [00:31:35] I want you to find something that you love doing. If it's a local art class, rambling. I want you to go to Zumba, I don't know what it is. I genuinely don't know what it is. Don't go to Zumba, scrap that. It's difficult because you're in a new area, but that's okay. You have to reach out. Also, I think your husband, you'll say he knows your here obviously and you'll say, "I [00:32:00] think we need to go up and I'm going to have a glass of wine." By the way, you'll practically fall over after a sip, you don't even need the whole glass. You will, if you're anything like me. And also, because you haven't drank for so long. But, even you don't, forget drinking, you don't need, but let's go to a movie.
Sophie: [00:32:14] I think he'd be thrilled. 
Claudia: [00:32:15] He will be thrilled. And you know what, so will you, and I know you're not used to it and people want to help, so you know, what, if there is that work friend, go out with her and have dinner with her and just go, I've been through shit.
 It's awful, and if it hasn't happened to her, I promise you, she will know somebody and tell your mum. Mums are more useful than we give them credit for, but you can also phone her up and sob, I'll be right out and say, I feel rubbish and tell your sister too, she'll feel guilty enough, but you can tell her. 
You can say it's really hard, and I love my nephews and nieces, but this is not going the way I thought. And everybody look after me a bit and they will. 
Sophie: [00:32:58] Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:32:59] I'm crying, you're [00:33:00] crying. This isn't helpful. Um, but do you understand? We have to go through all kinds of stuff and you are going through the worst. I promise you, and we see that and you can't do it alone.
And I promise you, you will get it done. Just going to take longer than you thought. And you are going to be the most amazing mum. 
Sophie: [00:33:22] Thank you.
Claudia: [00:33:22] I don't think I'm saying too much, but lots of people I know have been through this, often the babies who are the hardest to get the most loved and that's the situation. And can I suggest Tanya and Claudia for names, male or female?
Sophie. Thanks so much for coming in. 
Sophie: [00:33:38] Thank you.
Claudia: [00:33:50] You're going to be okay.
Tanya: [00:33:52] What do you think? 
Claudia: [00:33:53] I think she will. I got very strict with her at the end. A lot of it wasn't on mic, it was outside. 
Tanya: [00:33:59] I [00:34:00] know, I was there, I heard. 
Claudia: [00:34:01] I think she will. I think acceptance and grieving is absolutely key, as you said. 
Tanya: [00:34:07] You cried. 
Claudia: [00:34:08] I did. It came to me at the end that she's been dealing with all of this by herself. And her husband. I'm not saying husbands aren't useful. Without her mum, really. I mean, her mom has been amazing, but she only gives a certain Sophie to her mum. The, "Yep. We've got this in, going for the scan on Tuesday. How are you? How's dad. All right, bye. Love you". And sometimes it's really important, you always taught me this to say, do you know what, it's, it's rubbish it.
Tanya: [00:34:36] It's shit. Yeah. 
Claudia: [00:34:37] How often do people get to using donor eggs? If you like, if that, if that's even a factor at all. 
Tanya: [00:34:46] It's estimated that, I think about every year, about 2000 children are conceived with the help of a donor. So it could be, um...
Claudia: [00:34:54] Sperm or egg donor. 
Tanya: [00:34:56] Sperm or donor eggs, sometimes [00:35:00] both that's called a double donation.
So, you can do both. Um, and you know, it's such an amazing thing, because if you think about it without a donor, many of these people wouldn't have been able to have a family. There is an amazing charity Fertility Network.Uk.org. And they have local support groups across the UK. And, I also think there's a lot isn't there? Where to be said for sometimes just being amongst people who also truly get it.
Claudia: [00:35:26] Yes. Yes. 
Tanya: [00:35:29] So I've given Sophie that information as well, for when she leaves. 
Claudia: [00:35:32] Absolutely, I think that will really help her because you go, Oh yes. That's how I feel. 
Tanya: [00:35:37] Yeah. But there's one thing that you did that really annoyed me. 
Claudia: [00:35:40] Oh, I'm so sorry. What have I done?
Tanya: [00:35:43] How dare you diss Zumba?
Claudia: [00:35:44] I knew you were gonna say that.
Tanya: [00:35:47] You know I love Zumba.
Claudia: [00:35:48] I... a... And therefore I love Zumba. 
Tanya: [00:35:50] You don't though, Claudia. I know you don't. 
Claudia: [00:35:52] I don't know what it is. 
Tanya: [00:35:54] Yes you do, because I've demonstrated it for you, but I've always noticed you flick your eyes onto your [00:36:00] phone. 
Claudia: [00:36:00] With disdain. 
Tanya: [00:36:01] With disdain. 
Claudia: [00:36:01] I tell you what we'll do now, this is how we're going to end this. You and I will stand. At least four metres apart, we'll open up your little laptop and we'll do a Zimbra online. 
Tanya: [00:36:11] Only if I can film it and show the world. 
Claudia: [00:36:13] No, it's, it's a solid, no, let's go and have a cup of tea instead. 
Tanya: [00:36:17] Okay. 
Claudia: [00:36:18] Zumba, is it something to do with badminton?
Tanya: [00:36:20] Oh Claudia. It is... 
Claudia: [00:36:23] Is it Latin?
Tanya: [00:36:25] It's just fabulous.
Claudia: [00:36:27] What is it hip movements? You're confusing me.
And here's a little aid memoir, please subscribe to all the podcasts to get more episodes for free. Rate and comment and most of all share with simply everyone you know, it helps us to make more. Thank you. 
If you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this episode, please see our program notes for information about further support and advice.
[00:37:00] And, if you're interested in taking part in future episodes of How Did We Get Here? please email briefly describing your issue to how@somethinelse.com. That's how@somethinelse.com. Without the G. Next time, we meet John. 
John: [00:37:16] I've had feelings of feeling quite alone about this. You know, and, and I've never really seen it in that, that way. I feel like I've been angry for probably this last year. So, it's almost like the anger is kind of gone. 
Claudia: [00:37:28] This podcast was made by the team at Somethin' Else. The Sound and Mix Engineer is Josh Gibbs. The Assistant Producer is Grace Laiker. The Producer is Selina Ream, and the Executive Producer is Chris Skinner with additional production from Steve Ackerman.
Thank you so much for listening. [00:38:00]